Test Target

[RMulhern]

Hey Guys

This is a 10 round test target I shot yesterday testing a new KAL 720 gr. PP bullet from 1000 yards. My question is:

How do you analyze this target??

Lousy, Fair, Ultra Poor, Poor Marksmanship...or what??

I fired 3 sighter shots...all 3 of which formed a triangle the size of your hand just off the 10 ring plate at the 10 o/clock position to get a zero. I painted those 3 and went back and fired the 10 rounds you see on the bull.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg)

[pdawg_shooter]

And people say paper patching dont work! Great shooting!

[Lead pot]

Well FPMIII I see your target this way.

I can see you have your load together in fine shape. Very little vertical shows your a hard holder and your load is just about as good as you can get it, except the one hit at 5-30 that got away from you do to either a bad break or a pressure problem do to a damaged patch from inserting the cartridge and wrinkling the front of the patch or a possible paper ring that made the round load hard there for causing a pressure rise that caused a slight increase in velocity causing the bullet to exit before the normal barrel jump.
The long horizontal looks like wind played with you?

LP.

[docone31]

That is what shooting is all about!!!!
Well done.

[Don McDowell]

Nice shooting Rick. Now if you'ld get a handle on that wind/mirage.:drinks:

[RMulhern]

Thanks guys for your replies! Now...here's the 'skinny' on what went on here! I made this same reply on the Shiloh board as I was interested in feedback from there as well as here!

Most folks would probably think 'lousy shooting' or maybe bad ammo but.....this bullet and load have high potential! When I shot this it was just prior to a storm front read thunderstorm moving in from the north and I had fishtail winds coming in from 10:30 through 1:30. I wanted to test for vertical deviation...nothing more because this is a new bullet I'm working with from KAL I set my no wind zero for 1000 on and fired these shots with no windage adjustment; taking time to deprime the case after each round fired, two wipes with wet patch and one dry and then back on the target again with no worrying about windage whether it was coming in from whatever side. With the exception of one round...which was the 8th round fired hitting down at 5 o/clock the vertical is what I would call exceptionally good! That 8th round loaded hard but I shot it anyway and my thinking was that it would be impacting low. This was a good breaking shot as most were and had I had more rounds loaded I probably wouldn't have shot it but I only loaded X number of rounds so it went downrange. As Doc Lay has mentioned in some of his postings...when he runs into a round that doesn't load with a certain 'feel'....he'll unload it and go with another! I too...have found that to be true with PP...in all my rifles!!

Don made a reply on the Shiloh board that "it's going to be interesting to see the next 10"!! Truer words couldn't have been spoken because the 'eternal quest' in all our endeavors of rifle shooting is consistency aka repeatability!!

Lead Pot you were right on in your diagnosis....to a degree! The things you mentioned as to the 'dropped low shot' could have been the cause but I didn't have a 'paper ring' or a torn patch. On occasion, since I wet patch and dry on a warming plate I have noticed that even though patch paper may come from the same ream or Lot....there is a little variability in the degree to which it will dry down to. When this takes place with a patch there will be a bullet that will have a slightly larger OD than on others and this was apparently one of those instances. As for the paper rings....it pays one to look through the bore after each wiping just to check for that and also for any type of minute thread that may come off of a patch that is withdrawn through the bore. If there's one left inside....don't expect the shot to come up on call!!:groner::D

[Red River Rick]

Hmmmmm.....................It sure got quite out there!

RRR

[Lead pot]

Maybe there all thinking about getting one of your moulds :lol:

I know I need one for my new .44-90 BN:lol:

[Red River Rick]

Maybe there all thinking about getting one of your moulds

Yeah........RIGHT!

However; I can cut the "TGBS" design in .40 cal, shorter blocks (1 1/2").

RRR

[montana_charlie]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I doubt I could say anything that you would find helpful. But I changed my mind because you might be able to say something that helps me.

On the 30th, I fired a group that looks much like yours...except mine was fired from a hundred, and it's vertical.
I spent all of yesterday just thinking about it...like replaying the (mental) video to see if I can pick out what was so wrong.

I am certain that the vertical stringing is NOT due to variance in the loads.

Although all of my reloads would chamber easily in the loading room, all but one of them was hard to chamber at the bench. It needed that cam-it-in action from the breechblock to seat the rims.
Sure, I could seat bullets deeper, but they already load fine in a clean chamber.

I figure it is wiping technique that causes the problem. I am using two wets followed by a dry, but I don't do it quite like you.

For one thing, I use a jag for the wet patches.
When I tried a nylon brush, I could never get the patch to fall off...out there at the muzzle. Got tired of (either) running around front, or dragging tha patch back through the bore, to remove it.

Using the jag, the fit of the patch within (the chamber and) the bore is not as tight as with a brush. I figure that means the chamber throat is not cleaned enough...and causes the chambering problem.
But, I do use the brush for the dry patch, so I thought that would finish scrubbing the throat clean (and it looks clean).

I use squares of paper towel material for the dry patch, and I can fiddle with it enough to make it (eventually) drop off the brush.

Yeah...I know we use different patched-to dimensions. Set that difference aside for now, and tell me what makes your wet patches fall off of the brush.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

This is a 10 round test target I shot yesterday testing a new KAL 720 gr. PP bullet from 1000 yards.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg)

FPMIII,

That sure is fine shooting. :D What are the dimensions of the target?



I use squares of paper towel material for the dry patch

CM

Why paper towel for the dry patch MC?


SS

[303Guy]

I keep coming back to this thread because I find it so amazing that FPMIII has such skill and that a rifle can be made to shoot like that! So, taking wind effects into account, the 'theoretical' group would have been smaller than the inner ring. What would that be in MOA?

I have access to a 600yd range and was wondering how a Brit would perform with 225gr PP boolits. :roll: Not quite the same but still, it could be fun!

[montana_charlie]

Why paper towel for the dry patch MC?Well, because 'dry' is dry, and no strength is requred to blot up moisture.
Paper towels are abundant in our house, while (real) patches must be ordered online. So, I only use them when 'a cloth patch' is 'the proper tool', and use paper towels for most everything else.

When using them in place of cleaning patches, they cut real naturally into ~2.75 inch squares on the same paper cutter I use for my PP patches.

CM

[RMulhern]

I keep coming back to this thread because I find it so amazing that FPMIII has such skill and that a rifle can be made to shoot like that! So, taking wind effects into account, the 'theoretical' group would have been smaller than the inner ring. What would that be in MOA?

I have access to a 600yd range and was wondering how a Brit would perform with 225gr PP boolits. :roll: Not quite the same but still, it could be fun!

303Guy

Had I been shooting for a group I would have been highly displeased! If you read my entire postings...just recall that I shot this with mechanical zero...I made no wind changes as I was only checking for vertical deviation! Any rifle...especially one designated as a 'target rifle' will not be reliable until one has established a load that is consistent on holding elevation! In varying and constantly changing winds and mirage....one is doing triple duty just staying up with the windage requirements....and if the shooter is having elevation problems as well.....a decent score will be extremely tuff to deliver in performance!

The inner plate on the bull is 20" in diameter.:drinks:8-)

[Lead pot]

303 Guy if you have the proper diameter bullet, one that you don't size down with a patch on it would do quite well.

LP.

[RMulhern]

303Guy

THIS...is a group! Shot with the same rifle only I was shooting a 710 gr. GG elliptical bullet designed by DanT. I do believe the PP will deliver one just as tight...or tighter...provided I do my part!:redneck::holysheep

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/BPCR%20Groups/th_68999d9b.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/BPCR%20Groups/?action=view&current=68999d9b.jpg)

The 'splotches' over toward the left lower side of the inner plate are lead splatters; ten rounds here from center of plate and a couple went out on me at 3 o/clock.

:drinks:

[docone31]

303Guy.
I think they like you.

[303Guy]

Holy Cow! That would make the rifle and shooter MOA at 1000yds! Hoo boy! That is beautiful! I love it!:drinks:

But now, considering the the first pic is of a group in pre-storm wind conditions without any attempt to compensate - that makes the rifle and it's boolit pretty good! I did notice how narrow the vertical spread was. Some of that could have been wind induced too. (Much less than horizontal effects of course).

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=BrettBrianplusTarget001.jpg)


Looking at the target, the hits on the left tend low while those on the right tend high. That's what makes me think wind effects increased the vertical spread - yes/no?

Now I am still trying to master sight picture and trigger let off control - wind doping is a scary prospect for me. I have no idea how it's done!

[RMulhern]

303Guy

"wind effects increased vertical spread?"

Possibly....but more likely a flaw within my holding ability somewhat!!

Here's your sight picture:

I don't use this particular insert up front but it'll work! I like just a straight 'lolly-pop' insert!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/th_600px-Diopter_sight_picture.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/?action=view&current=600px-Diopter_sight_picture.jpg)

[JeffinNZ]

You know, there are two things in this life I never tire of watching. One is planes landing and taking off. Don't know why, just like them. The other is lead hitting gongs. CAN'T get enough of that one.
Good shooting.

[303Guy]

... more likely a flaw within my holding ability ...I don't believe so!:mrgreen:

Say, would you happen to have a pic of a 100yd 10 shot group? OK, make that 200yds - we wouldn't be able to discern 10 shots at 100.

[charger 1]

I don't believe so!:mrgreen:

we wouldn't be able to discern 10 shots at 100.

X2 We're getting into

"Ah the legendary sharps. Grab that bucket and ride out till I signal you to stop whitey". If you calculate that back to 100 and negate wind you should be grouping with heavily scoped PPC and other such bench guns, and to be honest I struggle with that. Hey just my opinion. tousand anything is darned far. KAL's molds are second to none. So are shilohs guns, but to think of a one caliber hole at 100 is kind of a struggle for me

[Nrut]

X2 We're getting into

"Ah the legendary sharps. Grab that bucket and ride out till I signal you to stop whitey". If you calculate that back to 100 and negate wind you should be grouping with heavily scoped PPC and other such bench guns, and to be honest I struggle with that. Hey just my opinion. tousand anything is darned far. KAL's molds are second to none. So are shilohs guns, but to think of a one caliber hole at 100 is kind of a struggle for me

Maybe you misunderstood...
I didn't take his post to mean a "one caliber hole"...
I could be wrong though..

[RMulhern]

I don't believe so!:mrgreen:

Say, would you happen to have a pic of a 100yd 10 shot group? OK, make that 200yds - we wouldn't be able to discern 10 shots at 100.

303Guy

No sir....I don't! If I were going to shoot at 100 yds. I'd just choose a M870 Remington with 000 buckshot!!

As for 200 yds. I had one or two but lost them when I had to run a System Restoration on this computer because of a Win32 virus! When I can get the time....I'll shoot you one from there!

Shooting at 100 yds. IMO is about as useless as 'teats on a boar hog!":veryconfu[smilie=w:[smilie=s:

[charger 1]

The intent may have sounded rude but was not. If we take into account that windage, human error etc etc do not follow a linear graph but rather a quite expidential curve all of that reeled back into 1/10 or 1/5 the distance must be a literal one hole. I would like to see the group/hole at 100, For the he11 of it[smilie=6:

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

Charger1 is right about the curve of effects of error vs. distance not being linear but rather exponetial (logarithmic). Although it is not radically so. It would be interesting to see a target at 100 or 200 yards.