Should I keep screwing up?

[44man]

I made two cherries this week. I screwed up by trying to make them sharper, undercutting with a small diamond ball in my Moto Tool. Plus I had a lot of flash from the end mill. I get some tool marks on the boolits.
Then I didn't know what diameter to cut them so I allowed .0015" for shrinkage. I wanted a .45 boolit of around 335 gr's at .453" and a 45-70 boolit of around 350 to 375 gr's at .460".
Well, I got the .45 at .4495 and the 45-70 was .458. I thought I should have allowed .005" for expansion. But the boolits were the right size at the parting line, only from block to block were they smaller. They were both out of round! I don't know why this happens. (I find this with cherry cut factory blocks also.)
I did my trademark mould freezing and heated the cherries a little. I turned them with a wrench until they turned free.
I now have a .45 boolit of .453" and a 45-70 boolit of .460" and they are round to within .0002".
Both were too heavy so I milled .020" from the top of the mould. The .45 weighs 331 gr's and the 45-70 is 378 gr's. Damn, is this a hair puller!
To all you sperts out there, should I just keep screwing up?

[Bret4207]

I'm no expert, but I think they call this "learning". Keep at it 'till you figure it out. You'll drive yourself crazy if you stop now.

[Blacktail 8541]

I'm no machinest and would not have a clue. I congarulate you on your progress to date. I do know that if you do it enough and learn from past mistakes you will finally end up with a product that you are proud of on the first go around. I wish that I had the equipment to learn on so that I did not have to depend on others for my screw ball ideals to come to fruition.

[44man]

What I am afraid of is that if I allow more for shrinkage and the boolit is that large at the parting line but too small from block to block, what happens when I re-cut? I think the boolit would be WAY too large!

[44man]

What I am afraid of is that if I allow more for shrinkage and the boolit is that large at the parting line but too small from block to block, what happens when I re-cut? I think the boolit would be WAY too large!
It baffles me that cutting blocks very slow with a lot of lube and closing them very tight after de-burring many times and flushing out chips, that the parting line diameter is always larger. Just doesn't make sense at all.

[bisley45]

wish I could help but I am no machinest but I like the looks of both them lead hammers:Fire:

[David R]

If you start a little bigger, You can always go smaller by sharpening the cherry.

Awesome Work!

[44man]

That would work, but it takes a lot of work to cut and mill blocks from the scrap I have. Then my cherries take a lot of hand filing, etc to make and I have no grinding machines to sharpen them. This is a zero budget operation. I can't spend $3000 to $6000 for tool grinding equipment to make a few moulds. It doesn't matter if it takes me a week to make one mould. I am retired and do it for fun and to save money. I am not and have never been a machinist. I had to learn myself on the cheap Smithy lathe, mill, drill I bought. But I have a pile of moulds that I made and some shoot 5/8" or under at 50 yd's from revolvers. I also won my class at the last BPCR shoot with a home made boolit.
This is very far from a sophisticated operation, sort of like the long rifle makers cutting a mould with hand tools.

[StarMetal]

44man,

All that matters is that you enjoy it and you're having fun and not costing an arm and a leg like you said. I'm sure you're following my first mould making adventure. I'm going the cutter method rather then a cherry like you do. I'm kind of anxious to see how it comes out. Me and Buckshot figured I needed to cut the cavity at least .002 over the size I want it to actually drop at, but am hearing different from you. I'm listening if you have any comments on that. I'll be using WW's.

Joe

[44man]

Joe, I think .002" should do it. I have an idea that larger boolits might need a slight change by adding a tiny bit more. I sure wish I could lathe cut moulds. I tried but the tools I made flexed too much and I can't measure close enough with the cheap Smithy. You really need CNC stuff. Talking BIG, BIG bucks.
The guys that make moulds know the shrinkage and expansion rates so they know how to cut a mould for an alloy. I am stupid and have to guess.

[StarMetal]

44man,

Thanks. Don't forget I'm cutting a bullet that I want to be about .312 so you think that the .002 is okay huh?

Joe

[Greg5278]

44man, quit goofing off with cast iron scrap. When you are ready let me know and I will order some Durabar for you in easy to machine sizes. I used it, and it machines well, it turns to dust in the mill, depending on the cutter. I got some before, and afew guys got a couple of pieces from me. It is pretty reasonabl. and not expensive if you make a mistake. I recently ruined a mold, when resetting the alignment pins, because I did not through drill the holes. I fixed this oversight on my 2nd generation molds, and everone who uses them loves them. I had Victory mold Lathe bore the cavity. Greg S

[44man]

Greg, I am still using aircraft aluminum. I salvaged it from UAL when I was working. It was a large round chunk and I spent weeks in the tool room cutting it up with no idea what I was going to use it for. If I had any idea I was going to make moulds, I would have cut it different.
If I run out, I will have you get me some.
I make a perfect rectangle first, drill the pin holes all the way through, then saw the block in half. I mill the inner faces and cut vent lines. Then I pin the blocks before cutting the cavities. Before I cherry them, I put the blocks in my vice and mill the top lightly so it is in perfect alignment to the cherry. I have no alignment problems like that and the base is square to the boolit.
My biggest problem is making cherries, cutting flutes with an end mill and filing the nose cutters. Too much flash is formed.

[6pt-sika]

44 man, I looked at a Smithy for the same thing about a year ago . actually it's a pretty decent setup . I am a CNC setup person by profession .
I'd like to have one , but I doubt if I would use it enough to get my money back out of it :(

[Buckshot]

...........CNC is good for repetition, or for recurring jobs. There are no flies on a manual machine if it's capable. CNC on a wore out machine will simply make junk by the wheelbarrow load.

For guys like us who set up and make some cleaning jags in the morning and then cut a mould block, or make a sizer in the afteroon, CNC is a very expensive item that just isn't required for stuff like this.

Heck, everything that came out of Springfield Armory from the 1795 Springfield flintlock musket to the M1 Garand was done on manual machines. Likewise moulds made by everyone was done on manual machines since the beginning until the past 25 years.

So far as the mould cavities being oval, the only thing I can figure is that there must be some play on the axis in the table or in the fixture, or in the spindle. Otherwise it's would be impossible for the cherry to cut a hole smaller then it's own diameter.

................Buckshot

[44man]

Joe, you might be better off with .0015" with that size boolit. Only a guess though.
Buckshot, I lock up all gibs and the gibs on my mould vice are very tight, I can barely turn the handle. I put a dial indicater on my mill and there is zero play. All the force I can put on does not even jiggle the dial.
I can only judge that it is the way the hand made cherry cuts by leading at the parting line. Maybe a machine made cherry would cut even but the last price I seen on one was $275. Kind of a rip off when I can buy end mills for a few bucks. I have been buying three feet of 1/2" oil hardening drill rod for about $5, so I can afford to ruin a bunch of cherries.
I loaded some of the boolits up today and will post if they shoot OK.

[44man]

Buckshot, I forgot to say the Smithy is hard to move anything just a tiny amount. I can't depend on the marks on the dials and have to creep up on a final cut. The marks are .002" apart and never track. Then sometimes the dial will move when turning the handle so I lose my setting. There is a lot of backlash and I have used spacers to try and remove most of it but to back off and pick up the screw again takes about 1/2 turn. This thing was not made for real precision. Even dropping the mill head with a dial indicater, then tightening the friction lock will move the adjustment.
I have seen old quality machines that will go either way .0005" without a hitch. Out of my price range even for old used ones.
I have to live with the Chinese junk. You just don't realise the effort it takes to make stuff on this thing.

[Doughty]

44 man,

What type of setup are you using to close the blocks on the cherry?

[44man]

How about a couple of pictures. I cut these out of a couple of cast iron risers I bought at a foundry. Hardest darn cast iron I ever seen. I remove the table from my milling table and slide the vice on and use the gibs to adjust it. I drop in the mould blocks and snug up the jaws, then the two cap screws in the side are tightened against a couple of aluminum blocks set against the mould blocks so they don't get damaged. The blocks are held very tight. The jaws have a left hand thread in one side and a right hand thread in the other. The bracket in the rear is screwed to the table base and keeps handle rod from moving. The end of the rod is secured by washers and a pin. This way when the handle is turned, the rod is stationary and only the jaws move.

[44man]

This is the other side.

[44man]

I dovetailed the jaws to the table base and there are two steel pins through the jaws that they ride on. The pins are fastened in the rear jaws with setscrews.
It took me two weeks to make it. I had to grind the rectangles out of the risers with a 4-1/2" angle grinder, then cut them with a cut off wheel in my body grinder before I could fit them under the mill. Iron was as hard as tool steel and I ate a lot of cutters. They told me, at the foundry, that it was the highest quality cast iron made. I believe them!
My whole yard was rusty! I ground them outside. The grass is doing real good there now.

[44man]

I shot some boolits today. The .45 Vaquero did good at 50 yd's. I tried unsized, sized, profile crimp and roll crimp with the same load of 21.5 gr's of 296. Unsized and profile crimp was the best, 2 touching just to the left of the aim point and 3 under an inch just to the right. Blame the great sights with the ditch in the frame and the big round front blade. . In both cases the sized boolits were the worst even though I could hardly see any size marks on the boolits. I can barely get them through the throats.
In both cases, the roll crimp was the worst and the combination of a roll crimp and sized boolit was very bad, group was 5-1/4"
With the unsized boolit and profile crimp, moving the two left hits to the right a little would have given me 5 shots under an inch. This load also hit right on the point of aim. None of the roll crimped ones did. And no, the profile crimp does not size the case and boolit. I have checked the case diameter of a seated boolit and after crimping, there is no change!
Now I have to work loads to see what it likes.
The 45-70 was a different story. I put two just left of the bull and three way on the right side of the paper. I had to wonder if the Busnell red dot was failing.
I tried 38 and 40 gr's of 4198. Both loads did the same thing. I sized the boolits and they will not go through the throats being .0005" larger.
I cleaned the gun and the whole bore was full of lead as was the lead to the throats. It wiped right out and a brush with M-Pro 7 made the gun sparkle. I wonder if I was pushing them too fast and they were stripping. The boolits are very hard, WW's with tin and antimony added, water dropped.
I have to shoot some of my old loads to see it the scope is OK.
I then cleaned the Vaquero and there was not a single speck of lead in it.

[Doughty]

44 man

Just out of curiosity, try this.

Take the mould blocks that you have already cut the cavity with a cherry on the mill, ones that are close to being the correct diameter at the parting line but are too small at 90 degrees to the part line. Take the cherry and place it in the cavity, then place the mould blocks with the cherry in them in a good heavy bench vise. Use something to protect the out sides of the blocks from marring. Tighten the vise to where it will just hold the blocks. Should be able to turn the cherry with very little pressure. Now put a handle on the cherry so you can turn it by hand. This may require grinding some flats on the cherry first. Now spray a little WD40 in the cavity. Then just tighten the vise a little. Turn the handle and you should feel a tight spot. Keep turning untill you don't feel the tight spot. Remove blocks and clean cavity and any burrs. Observe where the cherry is cutting the blocks. If it's where you want it to be cutting (90 degrees from part line) repeat process. Repeat this until you can tighten the vise as far as it will go and still turn the cherry with very light pressure. By now you should have a pretty round hole and depending upon sharpness and smoothness of the cherry, a nicely finished cavity. If there are stresses in the metal, this process may have to be repeated after the blocks have been brought up to casting temperature. May even have to be done while they are at temperature.

FWIW

[44man]

Old vic, it sure is a lot easier to freeze the blocks and re-cut! It cuts just where I need it and they come out round. No chance of deforming the blocks with the vise pressure.

[Doughty]

44 man

Sorry to bother you. I didn't understand you correctly. Thought you were still having problems. Sounds like you have got it all worked out and aren't screwing around anymore.

[floodgate]

44man:

Boy, that's one CLEAN Smithy; mine looks like something from the oilfield scrap-pile; plus I just burned out the start windings on my drive motor (after twelve years' of heavy abuse; lots of runing in forward and reverse at high rpm's for polishing, etc.) Is that the long milling cross-feed table they offered for a short while, several years back? I wanted one, but by the time I had saved enough to get it, they had dropped it. They're acrually pretty good machines if your space is limited; they bear the same relation to REAL machine tools as the "Shopsmith" does to good woodworking equipment. Anyhow, I admire your courage - and skill!

floodgate

[44man]

I was lucky, the milling table was incuded with the sale price. I also found so much wrong, like cast iron dust in the bearings, etc. I wrote them and explained all the problems and they sent me a whole bunch of free stuff. They are good people, but the factory in China sucks, it must be dirty as all get out.