You guys were right about the 6.5x55...

[O.S.O.K.]

I just got back from the range testing some 6.5x55 loads that should have clocked around 2000 fps. The Lyman 150 grain gc boolits were cast from 1/2 ww and linotype and sized to .266" in my RCBS lubersizer and lubed with LLA. There was no leading whatsoever, which is good but both loads (29 gr RL15 and 35 gr w760) were crap - the boolits were not stabalized and keyholed the target at 100 yards.

So, you guys that reported this before were absolutely right - but I had to try it for myself :mrgreen:

Now, given the total lack of leading, I'm wondering if I just don't need to push them up in velocity... something to ponder.

My other cast boolit load (250 GC Saeco .358" - 356 Win - 2000 fps) did great though! 2" +/- at 100 yards out of my Marlin 336. I'm posting that down in the leverguns forum.

So, the day wasn't a total "learning experience" :castmine:

[waksupi]

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah. [smilie=l:
Would we lie to you? [smilie=s:

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I know for a fact that higher velocities are fine - from experience with jacketed loads. The issue is how will the boolits hold up to 2300 fps or so...

I won't be that worried if it turns out that I can only get 1500 fps and accuracy - that's fine for fun shooting at the range. I have many other rifles that shoot cast heavy boolets really well at 2000 fps.

[StarMetal]

I'm working with my "secret rifle". I can tell you it's a 6.5 and I can tell you it has an 8 twist..AND I can you (especially waksupi) that it will shoot high velocity accurately and without leading. I'm still working on somemore loads with a different bullet. I had/have problems with the Lyman 266469 mould. First one dropped at barely .264. Sent it back got another and it just makes .266, more like .265. Not to matter because the "secret rifle" has a modern barrel on it with .2639 grooves and with about a .256 bore. No it's not my 6.5 Grendel...that already shoots accurate at velocity with consistency.

I was out with my AR15 Colt HBAR today and shot a 100 yard group that was 3/8 inch with a 55 grain loverin style bullet at 227,417 rpms.

So don't you all doubt that fast twist at high velocity or rpm can't be accurate because it can.

Joe

[USSR]

...both loads (29 gr RL15 and 35 gr w760) were crap - the boolits were not stabalized and keyholed the target at 100 yards.

I cannot speak of W760, since I've never used it, but RL15 does not work well in low pressure, reduced charge loads. You might want to try IMR4895.

Don

[swheeler]

I'm working with my "secret rifle". I can tell you it's a 6.5 and I can tell you it has an 8 twist..AND I can you (especially waksupi) that it will shoot high velocity accurately and without leading. I'm still working on somemore loads with a different bullet. I had/have problems with the Lyman 266469 mould. First one dropped at barely .264. Sent it back got another and it just makes .266, more like .265. Not to matter because the "secret rifle" has a modern barrel on it with .2639 grooves and with about a .256 bore. No it's not my 6.5 Grendel...that already shoots accurate at velocity with consistency.

I was out with my AR15 Colt HBAR today and shot a 100 yard group that was 3/8 inch with a 55 grain loverin style bullet at 227,417 rpms.

So don't you all doubt that fast twist at high velocity or rpm can't be accurate because it can.

Joe

Well when you get the bugs worked out of that secret 6.5 Creedmore let us know some results, remember never tell secrets in corn fields, to many ears.

[StarMetal]

Well when you get the bugs worked out of that secret 6.5 Creedmore let us know some results, remember never tell secrets in corn fields, to many ears.

Good one on the cornfield Scott, not a 6.5 Creedmore either.

Joe:bigsmyl2:

[swheeler]

Oops I meant 6.5/270SPC! We have ways of finding these things out.

[45 2.1]

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah. [smilie=l:
Would we lie to you? [smilie=s:

Shooting tin boolits out of a 6.5 doesn't mean much. Remember this caliber is the P.H.D. of reloading. Not many people even have a lettered degree here in CastBoolitology. If you do it with jacketed, you can do it with lead. :bigsmyl2:

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, we all know how swedes shoot jacketed pills.

Thanks to all for the feedback!

And just to be more specific about the target results - the keyholes were about 1/3 the length of the boolit - so they were yawing, not sideways. But still - obviously not stabalized.

[StarMetal]

On the 6.5 forum I have a fellow over in Finland asking me about shooting a 6 twist rifle. He has some friends in UK shooting that twist. And here we are with the slightly slower Swede, the 7 AR's, and my secret rifle with an 8.

I've taken a lot of 45 2.1 home courses in how to shoot HV with accuracy in fast twists. At first I didn't do my homework and got lots of bad grades on my tests. Then I buckled down and things are starting to come together. Soon I'll have my degree!!!

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

So what's the secret? I mean to casting/loading?

I'm using the Lyman 150 gc bore-rider mold - cast 1/2 ww and 1/2 lino - air cooled, sized .266", Hornady gc and LLA.

6.5x55 - propellant, charge, etc.? Details, I need details! ;)

I'm hoping we're talking normal cast boolits and not paper wrapped?

:drinks:

[45 2.1]

So what's the secret? I mean to casting/loading?

I'm using the Lyman 150 gc bore-rider mold - cast 1/2 ww and 1/2 lino - air cooled, sized .266", Hornady gc and LLA.

6.5x55 - propellant, charge, etc.?

:drinks:

You have to have a ductile boolit that is the right temper for your pressure/loading. Shorter boolits that have a long enough body to reach the throat when seated at the base of the neck. Large enough diameter to fill the throat and nose engrave. Loverin designs are distorted less in the military Swede barrels. A slow powder amoung other things...............that burns at just the right pressure. Thats AA3100 and slower folks. The most important part is the way you put it together. It is NOT a recipe that you can take from the written word and accomplish. It is a hands on student/teacher thing because a lot of things can go wrong and you get abysmal results. Get it right and understand WHY, then you can do no wrong.

[O.S.O.K.]

But I've walked on the rice paper without ripping it... and snatched the beans from your hands... [smilie=f:

Seriously, you could say that about working up any cast boolit load. I do understand that what you're saying is that its even more important for this caliber...

But there's got to be some general guidlines to starting out - use this design, alloy, etc., sized to this diameter (might be to match the bore), use this propellant and push to around this velocity. Experiment with all until success is acheived.

[StarMetal]

But I've walked on the rice paper without ripping it... and snatched the beans from your hands... [smilie=f:

Seriously, you could say that about working up any cast boolit load. I do understand that what you're saying is that its even more important for this caliber...

But there's got to be some general guidlines to starting out - use this design, alloy, etc., sized to this diameter (might be to match the bore), use this propellant and push to around this velocity. Experiment with all until success is acheived.

Not necessarily. Most other calibers with normal twists can be receipted. The very fast twist small bore's can not. Takes lots of shooting...lead, primers, powder, and patience too. As little as 1/2 gr of powder or less can make or break the load too. Wrong lube can too. You have to have a lube that can handle very high velocity in a fast twist. One of the one's most favored here on castboolits won't do it. One that is mentioned that will has to be learned and that LBT Blue. Blue will not, I repeat, will not magically show you good results with a load that isn't going to cut the mustard. Because of that many who have tried it said it wasn't any better then all the other lubes out there. I was one, ask BaBore about that.

Joe

[BABore]

Hah! Told you you had to have all your ducks in a row before you grease them up and season them for dinner.

[45 2.1]

But I've walked on the rice paper without ripping it... and snatched the beans from your hands...


That means you can do what the master has shown and taught you, NOT what the master can do and understand, so to speak. Understanding what is going on is 80% of the battle. Your choice of boolit and alloy probably need some revision. The last GB 6.5 mm will do what your looking for.

[StarMetal]

Well 45 2.1 gave you the bullet, I'll give you the alloy 50/50 that is ww's/lead. Heat treat them or water drop your choice. Then let them age before shooting.

You got idea of a lube, maybe BaBore or 45 2.1 will tell you another. 45 2.1 told you the powder too. There's another step left out, which of us will tell you?

Joe

[45 2.1]

You got idea of a lube, maybe BaBore or 45 2.1 will tell you another. 45 2.1 told you the powder too. There's another step left out, which of us will tell you?
Joe

That step requires actual knowledge of what it does. It is not a recipe and experimenting without knowing what your doing can get you hurt. NOT for general dispensation at all.

[StarMetal]

That step requires actual knowledge of what it does. It is not a recipe and experimenting without knowing what your doing can get you hurt. NOT for general dispensation at all.


Well.....that means when y'all start getting A's on your tests then you go to that step. Grasshopper, when you have mastered the steps, then it is time for you to leave.

Joe

[PAT303]

Whats the Hodgdon equivalent of AA3100?. Pat

[303Guy]

O.S.O.K., I said before, I have full confidence that you will get your Swede to shoot cast!

One little trick you might try. Load up one or two squib loads and catch the boolit undamaged to see what it's doing. Of course that is not the same as what will be happening at full tilt but it will show flame cutting and entering the bore at an angle and things like that. If it's not behaving properly with squib loads it won't behave well with full loads.

This boolit shows no defect and indeed, it shoots well.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-010F.jpg

This one shows base deformation and it shoots very poorly in that gun.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-871F.jpg

This one shows some 'shearing' in the rifling. That would cause leading and it did.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-905F.jpg

Flame cutting.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-314F_edited.jpg
This was caused by the condition of the bore. Fire-lapping sorted it out.

The middle one shows good fit in the throat.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-351F_edited.jpg
It took several attemps to get the shape right!

[runfiverun]

303 you have certainly come a long way in a short time...
and 3100 is on the slow side of the 4831 family.
aa 2700 is not a happy player in the cast world as it likes to be compressed some to burn completely. and consistently.
whereas 3100 is slower yet and has the same compression likes but burns more progressively [completely]at lower pressures.
kind of like 7828 in an 0-6 holds great accuracy till the bbl heats up,and lube is a major player there too. gonna give the castor oil swab a try here shortly.to see if 5 shots will hold the tight group that 3 does.3/4" at 2700. with a bore rider no less.

[StarMetal]

303guy,

I feel you're off on this one. The 6.5 Swede does behave with what you call squib loads. It's not flaming cutting ether at high velocity. You can't compare the Swede to your 303's..different everything in that barrel.

I've recovered high velocity bullets that didn't shoot good and the rifling on them show nothing...no flame cutting, no stripping or shearing.

The trick to the Swede, or any very fast twist rifle, is how you launch the bullet....and I don't mean from the muzzle. That is only one step to the equation.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, one thing that I'm suspect of with my boolits is the sizing. I thought I had the right nose punch but it did not center the nose... I had to carefully center it and hope for the best...

Now, I did roll the loaded cartridges to check for run-out (you can see run-out by doing this) and they looked true.

But I'll be glad when my Lee custom sizer arrives - I really prefer the bottom push method of sizing... I've never had an out of kilter boolit come out of my Lee sizers...

Again, thanks for the additional information and advice! :)

Oh and I just thought of something else. I shot some rounds into the 50 round target too and there was no evidence of keyholing at that distance. So, they were destabalizing between 50 and 100 yards...

And I have to say again that this just kinda blows my mind - I mean, too fast a twist that causes destablizing? That doesn't seem logical. I've always understood that too slow a twist has that effect.... and that too fast either strips the alloy or blows the bullet apart.

[bruce drake]

Buckshot made me a push sizing die in .268 and I've enjoyed shooting my 6.5 Jap ever since. My Lyman 266469 bullets would sometimes bend as I was sizing them to .264 (nominal 6.5) and the accuracy was horrible.

Now, the bullets come out at .266 and the checks get crimped on and the bullets fly straight.

Lee-Style Push sizing dies are the bomb for these long for diameter bullets.

Bruce

[StarMetal]

Well, one thing that I'm suspect of with my boolits is the sizing. I thought I had the right nose punch but it did not center the nose... I had to carefully center it and hope for the best...

Now, I did roll the loaded cartridges to check for run-out (you can see run-out by doing this) and they looked true.

But I'll be glad when my Lee custom sizer arrives - I really prefer the bottom push method of sizing... I've never had an out of kilter boolit come out of my Lee sizers...

Again, thanks for the additional information and advice! :)

Oh and I just thought of something else. I shot some rounds into the 50 round target too and there was no evidence of keyholing at that distance. So, they were destabalizing between 50 and 100 yards...

And I have to say again that this just kinda blows my mind - I mean, too fast a twist that causes destablizing? That doesn't seem logical. I've always understood that too slow a twist has that effect.... and that too fast either strips the alloy or blows the bullet apart.

The fast twist isn't destabilizing them, if anything it's helping them. If it were a 10 or 12 twist, whatever you're doing with you loads, it would be worse and keyhole totally sideways. The fast twist does put more stress on the alloy and does require that the bullet is centered and doesn't have defects such as voids, because the faster spin will accentuate those two things.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

I was basing my comment on the Don Miller bullet twist ballistics calculator that suggests that a slower twist would produce accuracy in this caliber/weight... but if I'm getting wobbly boolits with the fast twist, then that doesn't make sense.... as you point out...

And you make me realize that even the slightest varience in concentricity will throw a monkey wrench in this.

I think I'll just put the current batch of boolits into the melting pot and cast another batch and wait for the Lee sizer to show.

[303Guy]

StarMetal, what I meant was that at squib load velocity one can catch a boolit intact and examine it. It doesn't tell the whole story but if it's not behaving at low velocity it won't behave at high velocity. But a boolit seriously deformed on impact (or lost) doesn't yield much info. Unless one has a serious boolit trap! (That's what I would like).

As an example, I could not get my paper patched boolits to perform in my two-groove Brit and had no idea why. The low speed captured boolits revealed what was happening. I needed to use a rebated boolit to avoid base deformation. Although I was able to capture a high speed boolit, the base deformation was hidden by the general deformation. That's not the only problem though.

Capturing low speed boolits has another important benefit - it's fun!:mrgreen: (Especially when one isn't having success initially).[smilie=1:

O.S.O.K. A consideration with long cast boolits is that they can bend (iether in the mold or as they come out - not sure). I have found one or two castings really banana shaped. I have also sized a few long boolits in a push through and those really bent! Such long boolits can also bend on firing while the boolit transits from case mouth to bore. That won't necessarily show up in a low speed test and at higher speed it could be impact induced bending. But when the recovered boolit is bent and the rifling marks match the bend, then one wonders.

[bruce drake]

I actually saw my bends in a Lyman 45. The Push through die I think supports them better as the force is directed in one direction. My Lyman sometimes tilts those longer ones also.

[Buckshot]

I actually saw my bends in a Lyman 45. The Push through die I think supports them better as the force is directed in one direction. My Lyman sometimes tilts those longer ones also.

...........Heck, I've bent 311284's and Saeco RG-4's. Just gotta love those dirt scraper grooves and worn out Lyman 450's :-)

.............Buckshot

[O.S.O.K.]

Mine sized easy enough in my RCBS lubersizer but I didn't have the right top punch. After looking for it again and finding it at Midway - but not in stock, I put it on backorder - figure I might polish the die open some more to .268" and see if that helps. Then I'll have the Lee at .266" and this one...

I remember trying to find the top punch way back when I bought the sizer die - and it was out of stock then. I guess this is one of those cast calibers that's just marginal in sales?

[Larry Gibson]

But I've walked on the rice paper without ripping it... and snatched the beans from your hands... [smilie=f:

Seriously, you could say that about working up any cast boolit load. I do understand that what you're saying is that its even more important for this caliber...

But there's got to be some general guidlines to starting out - use this design, alloy, etc., sized to this diameter (might be to match the bore), use this propellant and push to around this velocity. Experiment with all until success is acheived.

You are "seriously" correct. Welcome to the world of "myths, secrets, old wife's tales and witchcraft" regarding cast bullets at high velocity. Go ahead and cast some of 50/50 alloy, HT or WQ them, let them age, slap some LBT Blue on 'em and fill the case up with a slow powder.....go test them and then come back ans some of us will tell you point blank why the accuracy still sucks.

Did I tell you of shooting a 10 shot group at high velocity with cast bullets out of my 6.5 Swede? Well 3 of those shots were within MOA so it's an MOA load! All I've got to do is pay attention to the "masters" and figure out what made those 3 shots land within an MOA of each other! As to the other 7 shots? Obviously they landed upards of 8" from the "group" so I must have "torn the rice paper".........

I've got an email from 45 2.1 where in he "reveals" the true secret to his "high velocity" 6.5 Swede loads. The secret is he uses that Lovern bullet over 2400 loaded to around 1800 fps. He also does the usual other case prep and loading techniques we all use or soon learn to use. Perhaps therein lies the secret to learn from the "masters"; call 1800 fps from a 6.5 Swede with a cast bullet a "high velocity" load. It also helps too, as did all old good witchdoctors, to scare the hell out of those inquiring with things like; "It is not a recipe and experimenting without knowing what your doing can get you hurt. NOT for general dispensation at all." That's about all for now as I don't think 45 2.1 really wants me to tell all his "secrets" here or he couldn't have so much fun spinning the yarns he does.

You might wonder why I don't mention Starmetla? Joe and I are good friends but we have been over this numerous times on this forum and others. We have repeatidly asked him to show us 3 five shot groups or 1 10 shot group fired with his high velocity load out of his ARs, .223 or 6.5 and he has failed to do so giving numerous excuses why not. ( a simple "search" of this forum will result in numerous threads where this has been discussed) No need to take him seriously until he posts the actual data and sufficient test groups to demonstrate some consistency of accuracy.

One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

So go ahead and shoot those bullets faster as you want to, we'll be waiting for your results.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I'll admit and I think 45 2.1 will agree that it's hard to shoot HV with a very fast twist. Let me clarify the word "hard". By that I mean you have to do lot's of work and testing to find that "pressure" sweet spot.

I also think that 45 2.1 can shoot. I got some reports from eye witnesses to his shooting. Of course he and I talk at length about that. I believe he can do what he says about 99 percent of the things he says he does. We all say we can do things that is hard for other's to swallow unless we were there to actually see it. I can say this (gulp) I haven't been able to prove him wrong on the things he told me do that I didn't think would work.

There's a loading technique that if done incorrectly can be dangerous and it has to do with controlling the pressure of the powder burn. Yes there are ways to do that without physically making the case smaller or seating the bullet deeper and deeper. No not as simple as changing the amount of the powder charge either.

Larry I'm closing in your rpm threshold with some more of my rifles. By now you know I call the one the "6.5 secret rifle".

Joe

[Ricochet]

Compressing powder before seating the boolit, as the BP guys do?

[atr]

ball powder like W760 and W748 doesn't usually do well in reduced charge loads.....
keyholing could also be caused by a boolit that is not sized correctly for the groove dia.

[StarMetal]

ball powder like W760 and W748 doesn't usually do well in reduced charge loads.....
keyholing could also be caused by a boolit that is not sized correctly for the groove dia.

That's not much of a reduced charge for 760. On the Hodgdon data site they list minimum for a 140 jacketed at 39 grs and 160 jacketed at 37.5 grs. It's probably just too slow for the application here.

Or it pushed the bullet too fast, as the velocities listed for the jacketed were 2300 to 2400 fps.

Joe

[David Caldwell]

Slow it down to 1500 and use the gas check. If this produces a decent group, and I bet it will, it suggests slippage on the lands at high velocity. Not uncommon to get big time, group ruining slippage without getting leading.

dac

[StarMetal]

Slow it down to 1500 and use the gas check. If this produces a decent group, and I bet it will, it suggests slippage on the lands at high velocity. Not uncommon to get big time, group ruining slippage without getting leading.

dac

I just built a bullet recovery system using a big water tank. I shot both the 55 grain (spoke of here) and 70 grain 22 caliber bullets into it at 2300 fps with my Colt HBAR with 7 twist. The alloy was 50/50 wheelweights/lead water dropped. The 55 grain bullet was ages quite some time. The 70 grain was less then a week. Calling this a recovery system might be wrong because it depends what you shoot into it and at what velocity. The 22's a HV get pretty well destroyed. At any rate there was enough bullet to examine the the rifling quite well. I can tell you that there was no slippage. Further more the rifling is very shallow in this barrel, especially when compared to a 6.5 Swede. I can't see him stripping through the rifling, but anything is possible. The only way to know is to recover a pretty intact bullet.

Joe

[swheeler]

Joe when you get that 6.5x47 lapua wrung out give us a report with pictures.

[StarMetal]

Joe when you get that 6.5x47 lapua wrung out give us a report with pictures.

Now now Scot, don't get the folks thinking that's what it is because it isn't.

Joe[smilie=1:

[303Guy]

Compressing powder before seating the boolit, as the BP guys do? Yup. If I don't the powder pushes the bullet out! (J-words). I do this with my hornet with Lil'Gun.

For my Brit, I am using AR2209/H4350 because it is slow enough to nearly fill the case. I am given to believe it does burn consistantly at lower pressure but that the pressure rise is quite slow which is what one wants with a cast boolit. It is warned not to use less than 75% load density with this type of powder. (I measure case capacity as the volume of the under the boolit). That amount of powder should produce low enough velocity for cast boolits.

Here is an example from Hodgdons that illustrates my thinking.

160 GR. HDY RN
Hodgdon H4831 44.0gr 2327fps 36,600 CUP
Hodgdon H4831 48.0gr 2524fps 46,000 CUP (compressed)
Here the max load is compressed so that indicates case volume. The starting load is given as 92% case volume. (Unknown compression of the max load). Theoretically one can go as low as 36gr with this powder @ 75% load density. But the velocity difference is 200fps at 92% load density. We want 1800fps or a 725fps velocity reduction - 71%. The actual decrees is exponential so a 80% reduction in pwder charge might give up the required 71% reduction in velocity so I would start there. But a warning - I have not read up on that powder so I do not know whether that low a load density is actually safe or not! So don't do it - it was just an illustration!

[David Caldwell]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Caldwell
Slow it down to 1500 and use the gas check. If this produces a decent group, and I bet it will, it suggests slippage on the lands at high velocity. Not uncommon to get big time, group ruining slippage without getting leading.

dac
*****

I just built a bullet recovery system using a big water tank. I shot both the 55 grain (spoke of here) and 70 grain 22 caliber bullets into it at 2300 fps with my Colt HBAR with 7 twist. The alloy was 50/50 wheelweights/lead water dropped. The 55 grain bullet was ages quite some time. The 70 grain was less then a week. Calling this a recovery system might be wrong because it depends what you shoot into it and at what velocity. The 22's a HV get pretty well destroyed. At any rate there was enough bullet to examine the the rifling quite well. I can tell you that there was no slippage. Further more the rifling is very shallow in this barrel, especially when compared to a 6.5 Swede. I can't see him stripping through the rifling, but anything is possible. The only way to know is to recover a pretty intact bullet.
*****

Just try it. Load 5 with 13 - 14 gr. of 2400 and shoot the paper target.

[Buckshot]

...............These were shot several years ago"

http://www.fototime.com/ED85D15612B17F9/standard.jpg

The above was me doing some 'back testing' with an already proven load. The load and rifle was the same for the 4 targets. Velocity would have been around 1550 fps. I have the exact info but don't wanna go out to the shop in my socks :-). All rounds were stripped from the magazine, BUT:

Upper left target: Stripped, muzzle elevated, no crimp
Lower left: Stripped and fired w/o elevating the muzzle to orient the charge.
Upper right: Loaded round were given a dose of the Lee Facctory crimp, plus muzzle elevated.
Lower right: Lee factory crimp, stripped from the mag and fired.

http://www.fototime.com/8B8B8013CDC151A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B55472729A707A9/standard.jpg

The 6.5 moulds I have/had. Left Photo #1 Old Lyman SC-HP 128grs (sold to 45 2.1) #2 The Jumptrap 1st Edition 140gr Lee GB. This was way back in the Shooters.com days 3) Lyman 268645 so called "High Velocity" 152gr design. #4 The Oldfeller 170gr "Cruise Missle". A Lee SC GB on the old Aimoo board. Still avail from MidSouth as a special order.

Right Photo Left boolit is the 6.5 Kurtz 132 gr. This was a Lee 6 cavity job and was done to mimic the apparent high velocity ability of that old Lyman HP in the left photo. Cast of lino it drops at 128+ grs and is a super shooter. In the photo BOTH slugs are seated to engrave.

http://www.fototime.com/FDFB15D24356321/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/320564FA7E910BB/standard.jpg

Left is engraving on the Kurtz, and on the right engraving on the Cruise Missle

http://www.fototime.com/8D65C37E75D7824/standard.jpg

Two different boolits in 2 different rifles. The charge was the same @ 35.0 grs or surplus WC872 ball. The top 2 targets are the 170gr Cruise Missle and the bottom 2 are the Lyman 268645 "High Velocity" slug. Nothing special was done for these loads. Thrown charges, and only visually inspected slugs. The cases bore the same headstamp. All were 5 rounds at 50 yards.

The upper and lower LEFT targets were fired from a 24" barrel. The upper and lower RIGHT targets were fired from a 29" barrel. WC872 ball was a surplus 20mm cannon powder and just a bit faster then chopped notebook paper. The same load in the same 24" barrel gave the heavier slug an 80 fps advantage. In the right 2 targets with the longer barrel, the heavier slug was again faster by 40 fps. You'll also notice in the TOP 2 targets, the heavier slug gained 100 fps over the 24" bbl, and in the bottom targets the lighter slug gained only 40 fps. Obvious to me the very slow powder LIKED the additional pressure casued by the heavier slug and longer barrel.

http://www.fototime.com/FFB204A75BA36E1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/142E2E3B975802E/standard.jpg

Pure speed tests. The load was WC872 surplus ball with a filler. Rifle was an as issued 1896 Swede. All same headstamp brass, thrown charges, visually inspected boolits. All targets are 10 rounds at 50 yards.

LEFT 2 TARGETS Shot with the Lyman 268645 slug. 39.0gr load was 1910 fps
RIGHT 3 TARGETS Shot with the Lee 6 cav GB 132gr Kurtz. Didn't like that 38gr charge much? The 39.0 gr load was 1887 fps.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

I've got an email from 45 2.1 where in he "reveals" the true secret to his "high velocity" 6.5 Swede loads. The secret is he uses that Lovern bullet over 2400 loaded to around 1800 fps. He also does the usual other case prep and loading techniques we all use or soon learn to use. Perhaps therein lies the secret to learn from the "masters"; call 1800 fps from a 6.5 Swede with a cast bullet a "high velocity" load. It also helps too, as did all old good witchdoctors, to scare the hell out of those inquiring with things like; "It is not a recipe and experimenting without knowing what your doing can get you hurt. NOT for general dispensation at all." That's about all for now as I don't think 45 2.1 really wants me to tell all his "secrets" here or he couldn't have so much fun spinning the yarns he does. I see you didn't believe what Joe relayed, so i'll post it here: "Post whatever you like, you weren't told any secrets". You seem to believe you have a hold on me, but like usual, you are sadly mistaken. You got an outline of what to do, which you evidently didn't understand since you didn't have any success. Too bad...............................

You might wonder why I don't mention Starmetla? Joe and I are good friends but we have been over this numerous times on this forum and others. We have repeatidly asked him to show us 3 five shot groups or 1 10 shot group fired with his high velocity load out of his ARs, .223 or 6.5 and he has failed to do so giving numerous excuses why not. ( a simple "search" of this forum will result in numerous threads where this has been discussed) No need to take him seriously until he posts the actual data and sufficient test groups to demonstrate some consistency of accuracy.

One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

Larry Gibson

I see ole Larry is spinning his diatribe as usuall. Larry couldn't figure out the directions either, but Joe did so that puts him several notches above you Larry. All these attacks from you don't benefit this forum at all, just your ego. Like Joe said to you Larry, you really don't know, do you..........................

[Larry Gibson]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards. This has been proven in numerous tests by myself and others here. Buckshot's very fine loads in the 1500 fps range will no doubt shoot linear dispersion to their practical range limitation.

45 2.1

I do not hold anything over you, I merely point out the discrepencies in your posts related to this matter. I do know of those are discrepensies because you continually contradict yourself. I've posted factual data and many groups fired at actual "high velocities" with cast bullets as you have been asked to do. You do not post anything except to refer to others claims (as you do in the above post). You have been asked repeatedly by many here for years to show us what you can and have done yet you fail to do so. Your "directions" are simply nothing that most of us have been doing for years. There is no "secret" to them even though you and a couple others seem to think there is. Nothing to figure out at all. Joe goes out and shoots one good group or "holds paper" (quoting him) with ahigh velocity load. Heck, I've shot numerous good groups at high velocity but it/they didn't mean anything because I couldn't do it consistently. All those "good" groups were simple the product of randon dispersion not some mythical magic potion that you claim. Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. 50 yds. is pistol and rifle plinking level distance. It has nothing to do with high velocity results. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. Heck Larry, we have several members shooting cast boolits at jacketed velocity with MOA groups. They do it at 100 yards, not 50 yd. It does make a difference how you launch a boolit. Clue: the heat isn't reaching the boolit the way they're doing it. Read Einsteins definition of insanity and apply it to what your doing. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards.
Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards. This has been proven in numerous tests by myself and others here. Buckshot's very fine loads in the 1500 fps range will no doubt shoot linear dispersion to their practical range limitation.

45 2.1

I do not hold anything over you, I merely point out the discrepencies in your posts related to this matter. I do know of those are discrepensies because you continually contradict yourself. I've posted factual data and many groups fired at actual "high velocities" with cast bullets as you have been asked to do. You do not post anything except to refer to others claims (as you do in the above post). You have been asked repeatedly by many here for years to show us what you can and have done yet you fail to do so. Your "directions" are simply nothing that most of us have been doing for years. There is no "secret" to them even though you and a couple others seem to think there is. Nothing to figure out at all. Joe goes out and shoots one good group or "holds paper" (quoting him) with ahigh velocity load. Heck, I've shot numerous good groups at high velocity but it/they didn't mean anything because I couldn't do it consistently. All those "good" groups were simple the product of randon dispersion not some mythical magic potion that you claim. Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Granted, it's harder to shoot good groups at HV. That's because everything that the reloader may have wrong in the load will be acentuated by the very high rpm's. As one gains experience in cast shooting, 45 2.1's techniques does make it possible to shoot HV with fast twist rifles.

Now now Larry...I know 45 2.1 gets you going, but don't direct that on me. As noted in some of my recent posts on this subject I'm having some problems I'm working on shooting HV tests. The one main problem was the bullet. I believe I have a hand on that. Ironically the bullet I got to really start shooting in my HV test is 45 2.1's that he cast himself!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine!!!! Boy, that's sure good for my inflated ego huh? The other problem is finding that technique sweet spot, which I've gotten a hand on somewhat and last is the problem of being able to shoot consisted groups such as you mentioned. I have not been telling you I'm shooting small groups when I've only shot one good group. By now you've noticed mention of the "secret 6.5 rifle". By the way it's not a 6.5x47 Lapua...thanks Scot[smilie=s: The reason you're not seeing the groups from it are those mentioned above.

One last thing...if you want to see some exception HV groups shot at 50 yards...gee, just say so.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

:coffee:
Guys, this is just a hobby to me. I don't get all serious about this stuff - beyond the safety aspects that is. I enjoy reading all of the posts. I am also a stubborn sort at times and like to play out options based on me being lazy and not wanting to start all over with alloy, etc..

To that end ;) I loaded my boolits (which I finally weighed and they are 154 gr. with gc and lube) with two increased charges of the same W760. I did seat them out to engage the rifling and they still fit in the magazine, so that's good - again, this is intended for hunting if I get it going. Another thing that changed with the longer seating is that the base of the boolit is now just about flush with the bottom of the case neck, so that shouldn't hurt either.

So, we'll see how this goes. Longer seating and faster charge of medium slow powder. And no filler as the charge is about 90% of case.

Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Granted, it's harder to shoot good groups at HV. That's because everything that the reloader may have wrong in the load will be acentuated by the very high rpm's. As one gains experience in cast shooting, 45 2.1's techniques does make it possible to shoot HV with fast twist rifles.

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Now now Larry...I know 45 2.1 gets you going

I'd say I got his goat;-) He doesn't "get me going" but I do like to offer newer cast bullet shooters the other and most prevailent point of view regarding high velocity loads, especially regarding the 6.5 Swede. New shooters should be given accurate information based on fact obtained by actual results. We've yet to see any actual results of accurate high velocity loads from 45 2.1. He has been asked many times in the past to produce them to back up his claims. He has not and usually defers to your, BaBore's or Bass's claims. I have asked him again to post some results, we shall see if he does.

.... but don't direct that on me. As noted in some of my recent posts on this subject I'm having some problems I'm working on shooting HV tests. The one main problem was the bullet. I believe I have a hand on that. Ironically the bullet I got to really start shooting in my HV test is 45 2.1's that he cast himself!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine!!!! Boy, that's sure good for my inflated ego huh? The other problem is finding that technique sweet spot, which I've gotten a hand on somewhat and last is the problem of being able to shoot consisted groups such as you mentioned. I have not been telling you I'm shooting small groups when I've only shot one good group. By now you've noticed mention of the "secret 6.5 rifle". By the way it's not a 6.5x47 Lapua...thanks Scot[smilie=s: The reason you're not seeing the groups from it are those mentioned above.

I'll have to apologise if I gave that impression. I have noticed a more logical and scientific approach to your posting these days. You are posting all of your information, good and bad. That is the proper way to do it. The real problem is with the "sweet spot" concept is that it leads many down the wrong path concerning high velocity cast bullet loads. They can be working up a load at 2000 to 2600 fps using 3 or 5 shot groups and getting 3-5" groups. All of a sudden one test load gives a 1" group and they yell "the sweet spot". Then they go home and load more of that load and then find it too is really shooting 3-5" groups. They then (based on erronious advise gotten off this forum) go off testing primers, powders, lubes, GCs, etc. ad nauseum and never again find that 'sweet spot". Then they are told how to do it is a secret and if they can't do it then they just haven't "learned".

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion, i.e. the 3-5 shots just happened to land close together. Take a load that shoots 10 shots into 3". it is pretty much guarentee'd that 3 of those shots if not 5 of them will be pretty close to a 1" group. The "random" part is when you just happen to have the 3 or 5 shots that hit close to each other. Truth is the load is still a 3 MOA load. A true "sweet spot" load is one that can be duplicated redily and is reproduceable on demand. That's why I ask you for 5 consecutive five shot groups or 3 consecutive ten shot groups. When your loads give such good (I consider 2 moa to be "good" and true cast bullet high velocity) and consitent accuracy at high velocity then you can claim success. Caveat; I am talking about a cast bullet load to be used for general practice, target shooting and plinking. I have already, in previous discusions, mentioned the exception of high velocity hunting loads in which only a few shots will be fired before cleaning of the barrel is required.

One last thing...if you want to see some exception HV groups shot at 50 yards...gee, just say so.

You mised the point there Joe. I do not want to see any 50 yard groups from a CF rifle. They are misleading and give inconclusive results, especially with HV loads. Note waht O.S.O.K. says which is typical; " Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards. " Testing at 100 yards is the minimal distance that will provide any realistic "group" information regarding high velocity cast bullet loads in CF rifles.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I have asked him again to post some results, we shall see if he does.
Larry Gibson

Gee Larry, we're all still waiting to see definite proof that your lame RPM theory is true. No proof has been forthcoming on that for a long time and what you did post didn't prove anything either. Everytime someone posts a group disproving what you say, nothing is said by you but its a so called fluke. Nobody here plays by your rules except you.....................

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Whoa, hold on. In your opinion a "good" HV cast load is 2" moa, or less. Now we're not talking exceptional. We're talking good. Gosh, I've been wasting my time trying to shoot ragged holes. Geesh, no can't be, tell me it's not true...2 " moa...wow I threw lots of those targets away for fear I'd be laughed at. Boy, I got work to do now.

Joe

[StarMetal]

:coffee:
Guys, this is just a hobby to me. I don't get all serious about this stuff - beyond the safety aspects that is. I enjoy reading all of the posts. I am also a stubborn sort at times and like to play out options based on me being lazy and not wanting to start all over with alloy, etc..

To that end ;) I loaded my boolits (which I finally weighed and they are 154 gr. with gc and lube) with two increased charges of the same W760. I did seat them out to engage the rifling and they still fit in the magazine, so that's good - again, this is intended for hunting if I get it going. Another thing that changed with the longer seating is that the base of the boolit is now just about flush with the bottom of the case neck, so that shouldn't hurt either.

So, we'll see how this goes. Longer seating and faster charge of medium slow powder. And no filler as the charge is about 90% of case.

Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards.

You may have better sucess with your new loading, but I can tell you that's not it for the Swede. Remember I said launching the bullet and not from the muzzle?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Whoa, hold on. In your opinion a "good" HV cast load is 2" moa, or less. Now we're not talking exceptional. We're talking good. Gosh, I've been wasting my time trying to shoot ragged holes. Geesh, no can't be, tell me it's not true...2 " moa...wow I threw lots of those targets away for fear I'd be laughed at. Boy, I got work to do now.

Joe

Yes Joe, you do need to go to work. "Good" is 2 MOA at high velocity for 5 consistent 5 shot groups or 3 consistent 10 shot groups not the occasional 3 or 5 shot group you sometimes come up with.

The cast bullet bench rest boys shoot "exceptional" consistent accuracy at high velocity but they us very slow twists (14 - 18" twists in .30 cals) which keeps the RPM level way below the RPM threshold at the higher velocities. I, unlike some here, do not pretend to shoot "expeptional" groups consistently at actual high velocity with the attendant RPM.

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Gee Larry, we're all still waiting to see definite proof that your lame RPM theory is true. No proof has been forthcoming on that for a long time and what you did post didn't prove anything either. Everytime someone posts a group disproving what you say, nothing is said by you but its a so called fluke. Nobody here plays by your rules except you.....................

45 2.1

Your opinion ("what you did post didn't prove anything either") is noted but unfortuneately not the case.

BTW; "the rules" are not mine. They are the rules of ballistics and the laws of physics.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

Larry you know full well that 2" is not accurate unless that is all the rifle can do.
if it will do under an inch with j-words it will do under an inch with cast.
velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping]
you have to work things over pretty damn hard to just get the three shot thing to work.
but after doing it a few times you kind of give up the work, and just have a rifle built that you know will do the job at the velocities you want .and go shoot it.

[StarMetal]

Larry you know full well that 2" is not accurate unless that is all the rifle can do.
if it will do under an inch with j-words it will do under an inch with cast.
velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping]
you have to work things over pretty damn hard to just get the three shot thing to work.
but after doing it a few times you kind of give up the work, and just have a rifle built that you know will do the job at the velocities you want .and go shoot it.

runfiverun,

There you go, now we have someone that gets the "technique".

Joe

[303Guy]

I was testing paper patch loads at 50 maybe 40 yds. One load shot pretty well so I tried it at 190yds. Poooh! Yet they all hit the very large piece of cardboard straight on. (Just no-where near the POA! :-( )

[Buckshot]

............Well I'm afraid 50 yards is about my limit of good target and sight definition, so you'll have to forgive me. Shooting farther then that (for me anyway) just doesn't do much for seeing what a load will do, unless I have a scope. Being 56 and having worn glasses since the 5th grade it's just beyond me. I own 116 rifles but only 5 of'em have scopes. Two 22RF's, a 223 varmint rifle, my M77 Ruger 30-06 and my new Savage M10FP 308. For better or worse, all the rest have what they were born with (oh a few have verniers and peeps), but other then that ..............

..........Buckshot

[Jim]

I picked up a 6.5X55 a coupla' months ago. When I saw this thread start up, I thought "Man, this is great! Perfect timing! I'm gonna find out something from these guys that have been at it for a long time that will help me get this thing wrung out."
I'm very dissapointed. All I've seen so far is "My dog's bigger than your dog" and I haven't learned anything except that there are people here that give me the impression that they "know something" that nobody else does. That ain't helping me a bit.
I'm goin' across the street and have a cold one.

[sav300]

Jim,spring is here and the beer is cold,come on down.

[Jim]

Sav,
Fall is here, the leaves are golding out, the groundhogs are plentiful and we're a month away from primitive season for deer. I got access to 3 places to shoot and hunt and I got cold beer and genuine Tennessee sippin' whiskey in my basement gunshop frig. Pack your rifles and BRING IT!

[StarMetal]

............Well I'm afraid 50 yards is about my limit of good target and sight definition, so you'll have to forgive me. Shooting farther then that (for me anyway) just doesn't do much for seeing what a load will do, unless I have a scope. Being 56 and having worn glasses since the 5th grade it's just beyond me. I own 116 rifles but only 5 of'em have scopes. Two 22RF's, a 223 varmint rifle, my M77 Ruger 30-06 and my new Savage M10FP 308. For better or worse, all the rest have what they were born with (oh a few have verniers and peeps), but other then that ..............

..........Buckshot

Rick,

Believe me, I know what you mean. I love an old military rifle and not to have that keen young eyesight to shoot them at further then 50 yards really upsets me. Some rifles I just refuse to put a scope on, like say my Marlin Cowboy. Even though it's D&T'd for one I refuse to ruin the smooth lines of it with a scope. I was just teasing Larry Gibson about 50 yard groups.

Joe

[runfiverun]

jim, i laid it out right there...
you gotts suck it in and try it,i was about scared to death the first time i went into no mans land,with a powder not even remotely made for the caliber i was using it in.
i have also tried some duplex loads and other crazy stuff.
it's just easier to stick to the slower twist larry recommends,and the loading of super slow powders and get them going consistently with a hot primer.
you can blast out a light weight boolit pretty dang fast this way.
or a heavier one at normal velocities,still takes work,some anality,and patience.
but you really learn how,and why with a gun when you go there...
it also helps your flgc loading too..

[O.S.O.K.]

I picked up a 6.5X55 a coupla' months ago. When I saw this thread start up, I thought "Man, this is great! Perfect timing! I'm gonna find out something from these guys that have been at it for a long time that will help me get this thing wrung out."
I'm very dissapointed. All I've seen so far is "My dog's bigger than your dog" and I haven't learned anything except that there are people here that give me the impression that they "know something" that nobody else does. That ain't helping me a bit.
I'm goin' across the street and have a cold one.

:drinks:

You can add "talking in code" to the list too.

I think some guys just enjoy the banter and mystery that they seek to create.

The 6.5x55 is a perfect candidate for all of this being a finicky cast boolit situation...

[Larry Gibson]

runfiverun

Larry you know full well that 2" is not accurate unless that is all the rifle can do.
if it will do under an inch with j-words it will do under an inch with cast.

Sorry, I thought we were talking a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle here with original iron sights(?). We should, as you mention, expect equal accuracy with cast as with jacketed. I generally expect 2 moa as an average accuracy capability with most milsurps in good condition. One has to consider their sights and trigger pulls in the accuracy equation. Sorry if I' misled you with the 2 moa.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Buckshot

You need not apologise, if 50 yards works for you then so be it. I only point out my own preference and the reason for it. Besides. Most of your loads, including others posted eslewhere, are well within the RPM threshold and you should have no trouble with and accurate load developed at 50 yards "out yonder". I always appreciate you fine posts and input.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I picked up a 6.5X55 a coupla' months ago. When I saw this thread start up, I thought "Man, this is great! Perfect timing! I'm gonna find out something from these guys that have been at it for a long time that will help me get this thing wrung out."
I'm very dissapointed. All I've seen so far is "My dog's bigger than your dog" and I haven't learned anything except that there are people here that give me the impression that they "know something" that nobody else does. That ain't helping me a bit.
I'm goin' across the street and have a cold one.

Jim

There is lots of good information on the 6.5 Swede and accurate cast bullet loads from many members here. If you want specific information don't hesitate to ask for it. Let's start off with; what 6.5 mould do you have?

Sometimes the cold beer helps too;-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

If one gets a consistent 2 inch group at HV...that's darn good enough for min of deer. Not for varmint shooting though. It's a trade off, if you slow down and get varmint accuracy you lose the better ballistics. I will have to say the Saeco 140 gr 6.5 bullet is pretty sleek and I've done some ok shooting with it at 300 yards from my 6.5 Grendel.

Well was out with the "secret rifle" today confirming a load that I believe is the sweet spot. Yup, confirmed. Not as HV as I would like but over 227,416 rpm. That's the load one grain less then the sweet spot. So if you want of figure the velocity for that rpm the twist is 8. So I'm slightly higher in velocity then that now. So I believe the show shall begin. Load some up an see if we can get the number of groups set by Larry Gibson.

Joe

[Jim]

Jim

There is lots of good information on the 6.5 Swede and accurate cast bullet loads from many members here. If you want specific information don't hesitate to ask for it. Let's start off with; what 6.5 mould do you have? .....Larry Gibson

For starters, I've only had this rifle a coupla' months and don't have a mold yet. Furthermore, I don't have over a hundred bucks to drop into a set of blocks AND a handle. Lee doesn't make a .26? mold, so I'm in a quandry as to casting for the rifle. I reckon I'll just have to shoot FLGCs in it and be happy with that.

[bruce drake]

Jim,

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4C%45%41%44%20%42%55%4C%4C%45%54%20%43%41%5 3%54%49%4E%47&dept3=%53%50%45%43%49%41%4C%20%4F%52%44%45%52%20%4 D%4F%55%4C%44%53

Midsouth Shooters Supply out of Clarksville TN regularly does purchase runs of a 170gr 6.5 mold called the "Cruise Missile" $17 for a mold w/handles.

A lot of the people on this board have that mold and can tell you about it's performance in a 6.5 Swede. I don't have a Swede and its too heavy for my 6.5 Jap.

I troll searched Evil-Bay for a mold for you to bid on but I didn't see any.

Bruce

[Larry Gibson]

If one gets a consistent 2 inch group at HV...that's darn good enough for min of deer. Not for varmint shooting though. It's a trade off, if you slow down and get varmint accuracy you lose the better ballistics. I will have to say the Saeco 140 gr 6.5 bullet is pretty sleek and I've done some ok shooting with it at 300 yards from my 6.5 Grendel.

Well was out with the "secret rifle" today confirming a load that I believe is the sweet spot. Yup, confirmed. Not as HV as I would like but over 227,416 rpm. That's the load one grain less then the sweet spot. So if you want of figure the velocity for that rpm the twist is 8. So I'm slightly higher in velocity then that now. So I believe the show shall begin. Load some up an see if we can get the number of groups set by Larry Gibson.

Joe


Joe

Don't get too excited about the 2 moa, read my response to runfiverun. This discussion and the 2 moa criteria are in reference to a milsurp 6.5 Swede with original sights. Your 6.5 Grendel doesn't quite fit that criteria. This particular forum under which this discussion is taking place is about CB Loads / Military Rifles. If you want to start a thread on accuracy potential with such a rifle as yours or the ones runfiverun was referring to another thread would be better on an appropriate sub-forum. Then we'll discuss what is "good" and not for your Grendel.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

bruce drake is correct. Many do well with the "cruise missle" and it is available. I understand your dilema concerning $s. Just keep in mind that when you want to get into the higher performance end additional equipment will be needed and that always cost $s. You can work at it slowly and still get there. Also a lot of the equipment is also useful for other cartridges and what is cartridge specific can always be sold if you take care of it. How much you spend depends on what you want to do. Many times there's always a way. Don't get discouraged. I'm editing an old response to another question that pertains here. I'll post it soon. It may answer amny of your and O.S.A.K.'s questions or at least get you headed down the right path.

Larry Gibson

[O.S.O.K.]

Does the cruise missile deliver the goods at 2000 fps ish without as much fuss?

We have specifics and loads for it? If so....

[StarMetal]

Joe

Don't get too excited about the 2 moa, read my response to runfiverun. This discussion and the 2 moa criteria are in reference to a milsurp 6.5 Swede with original sights. Your 6.5 Grendel doesn't quite fit that criteria. This particular forum under which this discussion is taking place is about CB Loads / Military Rifles. If you want to start a thread on accuracy potential with such a rifle as yours or the ones runfiverun was referring to another thread would be better on an appropriate sub-forum. Then we'll discuss what is "good" and not for your Grendel.



Larry Gibson

Just teasing you there Larry. I'm hot on the trail to my recent test today with the "secret rifle".

Joe

[Bret4207]

Does the cruise missile deliver the goods at 2000 fps ish without as much fuss?

We have specifics and loads for it? If so....

No, it doesn't from the typical Swede. Reduce your speed to 16-1700 fps and fit it to your gun and you can shoot nice groups. Anything over the 1800 fps area, especially with boolits over 130 or so grains, gets into the area of mysticism, black magic, secret formulas and whispered incantations.

[Jim]

Jim,

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4C%45%41%44%20%42%55%4C%4C%45%54%20%43%41%5 3%54%49%4E%47&dept3=%53%50%45%43%49%41%4C%20%4F%52%44%45%52%20%4 D%4F%55%4C%44%53

Midsouth Shooters Supply out of Clarksville TN regularly does purchase runs of a 170gr 6.5 mold called the "Cruise Missile" $17 for a mold w/handles.

A lot of the people on this board have that mold and can tell you about it's performance in a 6.5 Swede. I don't have a Swede and its too heavy for my 6.5 Jap.

I troll searched Evil-Bay for a mold for you to bid on but I didn't see any.

Bruce

Bruce, you're a good fella! thanks, man, that's what I'm talkin' about!

[StarMetal]

Jim,

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4C%45%41%44%20%42%55%4C%4C%45%54%20%43%41%5 3%54%49%4E%47&dept3=%53%50%45%43%49%41%4C%20%4F%52%44%45%52%20%4 D%4F%55%4C%44%53

Midsouth Shooters Supply out of Clarksville TN regularly does purchase runs of a 170gr 6.5 mold called the "Cruise Missile" $17 for a mold w/handles.

A lot of the people on this board have that mold and can tell you about it's performance in a 6.5 Swede. I don't have a Swede and its too heavy for my 6.5 Jap.

I troll searched Evil-Bay for a mold for you to bid on but I didn't see any.

Bruce

If it will fit your Jap it's not too heavy. The Jap certainly has the twist to spin it. I've shot it out of my 260 Rem with either 9 or 9.5 twist, can't remember what twist that barrel has that I put on it. Look at the crazy heavy weights people shoot of the SKS 7.62x39.

Joe

[bruce drake]

Jim,

You are welcome! Glad to help out. A lot of guys post about that mold. LEE does good work on their small lot productions for Midsouth. I've got their 55gr 224 BATOR as well as their 225gr 8mm molds as well.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

Well, I may be on the lookout to purchase one also it seems. I'll give it a shot after I get back from a couple of business trips this month. THe Jap has a 1:8 twist so we'll see what it can do later.

Bruce

[StarMetal]

Well, I may be on the lookout to purchase one also it seems. I'll give it a shot after I get back from a couple of business trips this month. THe Jap has a 1:8 twist so we'll see what it can do later.

Bruce

I don't have the mould, but maybe you can get a few bullets to try first before buying the mould.

Joe

[Nrut]

I picked up a 6.5X55 a coupla' months ago. When I saw this thread start up, I thought "Man, this is great! Perfect timing! I'm gonna find out something from these guys that have been at it for a long time that will help me get this thing wrung out."
I'm very dissapointed. All I've seen so far is "My dog's bigger than your dog" and I haven't learned anything except that there are people here that give me the impression that they "know something" that nobody else does. That ain't helping me a bit.
I'm goin' across the street and have a cold one.

I don't blame ya Jim....In time we'll get this all figured out...

What ever happen to manlyjt and his 6.5 tutoring? I thought he was going to be taught the secrets of the 6.5 in a open forum...
Maybe he learned to much and was forced to join the "the secret brotherhood of the special ones"... :shock::veryconfu:veryconfu:shock: Bwaaaaah!
Gotta love it eh?[smilie=l:

[Larry Gibson]

Jim and O.S.O.K.,

The following is a long discertation on my perspective of loading for the 6.5 Swede and will be in several consecutive posts. if you read it you will also notice that most of it applies to most other CF rifle cartridges. Im sure there will be lots of 'nit picking" from several but let them write their own discertation on how they load for the 6.5 Swede. I doubt they will though. Anyways you asked for some information so here it is. Feel free to ask any questions.

Larry Gibson

Accurate loading of cast bullets for the 6.5 Swede

The 6.5 Swede in it’s original milsurp form is castigated by many as very difficult to load accurate cast bullet loads for, especially at what is considered to be “high velocity”. If on has an original military M96 or M38 that shoots quality jacketed loads into sub 2 moa then it is also reasonable to expect cast bullets to shoot into the same 2 moa albeit at a much lesser velocity. With the 6.5 Swede most consider any velocity above 1500 fps as “high velocity”. Many have developed very decent loads that push 1800+ fps. However to get into the realm of 1900-2400 fps with a 6.5 Swede and maintain 2 moa accuracy at 100 yards and beyond takes some doing and most often is not doable with components at hand.

The problems are several; first there is the fast twist. Normal cast bullets are adversely affected by RPM above a certain threshold. That threshold is in the 120-140,000 RPM range. Thus with normal cast bullet loads accuracy will be best in the 1200 to 1500 fps range with cast bullets. Going above this RPM threshold very quickly can have an adverse non-linear affect on accuracy. Then there is the odd size of the 6.5 Swede’s groove depth. Most are .266 to .268” groove depth with a .258 - .260” bore. Thus most modern 6.5 moulds do not cast bullets large enough for a proper fit. These modern moulds drop ill fitting cast bullets that do provide yeoman service with loads in or under the RPM threshold however. If you want to increase velocity above the RPM threshold and maintain accuracy you must have a mould that cast bullets that fit the groove depth and/or the bore of your particular 6.5 Swede rifle. A last but not insurmountable problem is the generous chamber dimensions of many milsurp 6.5 Swede rifles, especially the M96.

Let us address the steps, equipment and components that will give adequate cast bullet accuracy up through 1800+ fps and give you a solid base to attempt higher velocity if desired. We shall assume that you already have the normal array of reloading equipment to load ammunition and to cast bullets.

The cartridge case;
Most milsurp 6.5 Swedes have generous chamber dimensions. Not only does headspace differ considerably between many older M96s and the newer M38s but the chamber necks are usually of large diameter and considerably longer than most “trim to lengths”. For cast bullet shooting ideally we want a concentric neck that fits the length of the chamber neck and with walls of sufficient thickness that only a small amount of expansion is done when the cartridge is fired. This lessons the obturation of the base and shank area of the bullet to a much larger diameter than the throat. Thus less distortion of the bullet when pushed up into the throat with the base of the bullet (GC) also tends to stay square to the bore for better accuracy. Most factory 6.5 Swede cases have fairly thin necks. There are a couple exceptions but mostly on a lot to lot basis. It is best to form the cases from milsurp 30-06 cases. By doing such you can have the thickest necks possible and also trim them to the proper length for your rifles chamber.

I like to use once fired ’06 cases of one lot or headstamp. I clean the cases, deprime them and remove the crimp if necessary. I then initially form them in a 8x57 form die and the excess case length is cut off. I then anneal them. The preformed cases are then FL sized in a 7x57 die with the depriming stem removed. I then sacrifice one case by trimming it way too short to adjust the headspace of the 6.5 FL die to match the headspace of the rifles chamber. I begin to size this

[Larry Gibson]

case down a little at a time (I adjust the FL die in ¼ turn at a time), trying to chamber the case in the rifle between each sizing. Once the case is sized so I have a “crush fit” closing of the bolt on the case t rest of the he cases are then run into the thus adjusted 6.5 Swede FL die. The depriming stem for this is also adjusted so the expander is just below the case neck as it is pulled out of the die. This is like the Forster/Bonanza Bench rest die and keeps the necks a lot straighter (concentric) as they come out of the sizing operation. Of course the inside of the necks are well lubed for this sizing. I then adjust to trim length by trimming only a little at a time until the bold just closes on the case. T then chamfer the outside of the necks and use a Lyman long taper case neck reamer to ream the inside of the case mouths.

The cases are ready for fire forming. Everyone knows that most all ’06 cases are a few thousandths smaller in the head diameter than Swede cases (though many modern Swede cases are now the same diameter as ’06 cases). To get even expansion at the expansion ring I use a small one thickness wrap of cellophane tape around the case head. The cellophane is only about ¼” wide. This centers the case for the most part for the initial fire forming. The cases do need too be fire formed before any serious cast bullet load development can begin. I use a top end load to fire form my cases with jacketed bullets (mostly bulk Remington 120 gr bullets). I usually like to fire 3 such loads in each case. I use a permanent marker and mark the rims in 3 spots 120 degrees apart. The first mark is usually over the headstamp arsenal initials and this is first mark is placed up when the case is initially fired. Then on each additional firing I simply rotate the case to the next mark. Of course the cases are neck sized for the subsequent reloads. I may or may not anneal the necks again. I also then outside turn the necks a small amount to ensure concentricity.

Additionally I will drill out the flash holes with a #30 (#28 being the largest to use) to prevent the attendant shoulder setback caused by the primer explosion with reduced loads. If I do not drill the flash holes out I at least then uniform and deburr them with a Lyman tool. All of this case preparation may seem tedious and a pain but if one wants the best accuracy with cast bullets then a proper fit of the case neck is necessary. This is especially the case if you are going to push the RPM threshold into higher velocities. The bullet needs all the support in the case neck it can get. The use of properly formed cases using ’06 cases is the best way to do it.

Sizing the case;
Once you have gone to the trouble of forming case it is ridiculous to ruin them by FL sizing or by even attempting to “partial size” them. Doing either will only lead to frustration with lack of accuracy and negate the benefits of the properly fitted case to your rifles chamber. You will need to neck size. The Lee collet die is a good one for this but with the thicker necks of the formed cases it may not give consistent results of neck tension. A regular NS 6.5 die can be used but I’ve found a custom expander for the M-die will be necessary if you do not want to bend or distort softer alloyed cast bullets during seating. Either bending or distorting or both during seating is not conducive to accuracy so best it not be done. With the uniform thickness and concentricity of the formed case I’ve found the best method to neck size is with bushing dies. I use Redding bushing dies for this. I’ve found that with a small assortment of different diameter bushings I can sizing the cases to give perfect neck tension with no distortion of the bullet. With a proper reaming of the case mouth with the Lyman minimal taper neck reamer the use of an M-die is also many times not necessary. However, with the use of the proper bushing there is no

[Larry Gibson]

need for an expander and the Lee Universal expander will work fine to slightly flare the case mouth so the cast bullet can be easily seated.

Primers;
The selection of what primer to use may come down, particularly these days, to what you can get. In many recent tests of primers I’ve found that most regular LR primers work equally well. Many times though a magnum or magnum type primer (such as CCIs #34s) will not work best with many powders. Best to use regular primers unless you are using very slow burning powders (slower than RL22) or most ball powders (medium and slow burners). In extensive testing with an Oehler M43 which measures external and internal ballistics including pressure I have found little to no difference in CCI 200, Federal 210, WLRs and Remington 9 1/2s with cast bullet loads using powders from Bullseye up through H4831SC. As mentioned, with slower powders or medium to slow burning ball powders, the hotter magnum type primers might be best. I read and been told many times that primers of very low brisance such as large pistol primers can improve accuracy. Most often it goes something like this; “I was working up a HV load in my ’06 and fps the accuracy was 4 moa. When I switched to a “such or such” low brisance primer the accuracy went back to 2 moa.” Well there is some truth to that but I’ve found that most often the 4 moa load was above the RPM threshold and when switching to a low brisance primer the velocity/RPM dropped back down to within the RPM threshold. I’ve found that there can be as much a 200+ fps different with some powders, particularly with the slow burning powders, simply by changing primers. Thus primers can affect accuracy. However if a load is worked up with one primer and accuracy is good then by switching to another primer is there seldom an increase in accuracy. I use and always suggest to others that a good regular primer like the CCI, Federal, WLR or Remington will work quite well in the 6.5 Swede with most powders.

Powder selection;
Selecting an appropriate powder can be confusing. Many times the selection is made based simply on the powder(s) we have available on our shelf at the time. This many times works out fine if we have an appropriate powder available for the velocity range we are looking for and weight of cast bullet we have. With cast bullets of 120-130 gr and a velocity of upwards of 1400 fps Unique or a similar burning rate powder will work fine. For velocities up into 1600-1800 fps then the slow burning end of the pistol powders and the fast burning end of the rifle powders work very well. Here we find 2400, 4227, 5744, 4198 and 4759 to work well. If we want to shoot a cast bullet of this weight faster then the medium and slow burning powders are the ones to try. H4895, 3031, 4064, Varget, RL15, RL19, 4350 and H4831SC are the ones to try here. Slower burning powders and even some of these will reach case capacity before velocities get into truly high velocity for a 6.5 Swede. Another problem with slow burning powders is erratic ignition or pressures not getting high enough for consistent ignition. The 6.5 Swede cartridge is not one of large capacity so a balance must be reached between the weight of the cast bullet, the burning rate of the powder and consistent ignition. The use of magnum type primers may help a little here.

With cast bullets of 140+ gr in weight the selection of powder to use is a bit different. For the low end loads the slow burning end of the pistol powders and the fast burning end of the rifle powders work best. Here very good accuracy can be had in the 1400 – 1600 fps range. If everything is done correctly then very good accuracy up through 1800 fps can be had with those

[Larry Gibson]

powders. However, most are finding the best success with the slower burning rifle powders that give a balance between loading density, velocity and consistent ignition.

Bullet selection;
If we are keeping the velocity of our selected cast bullet down in or under the RPM threshold then just about any quality mould of regular design will give decent accuracy. However if we are selecting a cast bullet for the 6.5 Swede at velocity/RPM above the RPM threshold then that requires some thought also. If we want the “best” accuracy out of our 6.5 Swede, even at velocity/RPM within the RPM threshold then the same requirement for thought applies. The selected cast bullet must fit. This “fit” must be from the bottom of the case neck, in the throat, against the leade and into the bore if the selected cast bullet has a bore riding nose. If we are pushing for best accuracy and high velocity/RPM then the GC must not extend into the case below the case neck. The base/shank of the cast bullet needs all of the support it can get during acceleration. It must not be allowed to bend, rivet or get gas cut. Also important is keeping the bottom of the GC square with the centerline of the bore. If the base gets crooked then the “launch” from the muzzle will not be even and inaccuracy adversely affected. We must keep the cast bullet centered and concentric and the best way to do that is to keep all of the bullet in the case neck and the chamber throat.

Most milsurp 6.5 Swede’s have long throats. Most of these are at or slightly larger than groove diameter. The most accurate cast bullet is one that fills the throat length with the shoulder/front driving band slightly engraving on the leade. If the cast bullet has a bore riding nose then the nose should be a tight fit with some slight engraving of the nose by the lands. The basic idea here is to get maximum support of the entire cast bullet from the base to the ogive. This will allow for minimal bending and obturation during acceleration.

Two commonly found bullet designs for the 6.5 are Lovern designs and bore riders with long noses. The common Lovern designs are Lyman’s 266455 and 266469. The common bore riders are Lyman’s 466673, RCBS 6.5-140-SILand Saeco’s #264. There is also a “Cruise Missile” design available as a special order from Lee. My experience with numerous of them has narrowed my choice down to 266455 which is a Lyman Lovern design. That design fits the case neck and throat of all 4 of my 6.5 Swedes perfectly and there is no bore riding nose to contend with. Cast of most alloys it runs from 125 -130 gr in weight with GC and lubed. It has provided me with the best accuracy across a broad spectrum of velocity in the fast twist Swede. Many find good accuracy with the other designs but most often it is in or below the RPM threshold. The Lyman Lovern design gives the best accuracy at higher velocities from the 6.5 Swede and also the same design gives the best accuracy in other calibers as well.

Bullet Alloys;
There are numerous schools of thought on this. Some like to use hard alloys and some like their alloys soft. Others like them of medium hardness in the 16-18 BHN range. I have found that best accuracy, especially at higher velocity is best achieved with an alloy that is ductile. In other words it is not brittle. If one is keeping velocities down in the 1400-1500 fps range in the Swede then an alloy of straight WWs usually suffices. I like to add 2% tin to the WWS. This changes the composition making the alloy a little more ductile and the bullets cast better with less rejections due to non fill out. My best accuracy alloy with cast bullets at high velocity not only

[Larry Gibson]

with the Swede but with other cartridges has been with an alloy of WWs + linotype at a mix of 60/40 or 70/30. This gives a BHN of 18-20 with air cooled bullets. They are ductile and hold up well to high acceleration and velocity. I have been using WWs + lead at a mix of 50/50 for a long time in higher velocity hunting cast bullet loads. I have found accuracy to be excellent for the first 5-7 shots out of a cold clean barrel. Problem is fouling quickly builds and then accuracy deteriorates. Thus such bullets cast of that soft alloy are not good for general shooting. Again a balance must be found here between the bullet being ductile instead of brittle, the alloy being able to withstand the acceleration at the velocity desired and the terminal impact requirements.

I cast my 6.5 bullets in a single cavity mould. This gives the most consistent cast bullet. I then give them a visual inspection for non fill out or wrinkle with all defects causing rejection. For high velocity/RPM loads I then weight each bullet and reject all bullets not within a +/- .2 gr of the mean average of the lot. This means a larger rejection percentage of bullets but the accuracy results justify it.

Bullet lubes;
My experience based on numerous side by side tests of numerous bullet lubes at low, medium and high velocity, show that there is little difference between many lubes. Let me say also that there are some bad lubes out there both commercial ones and home concocted ones. The time to test a bullet at high velocity/RPM above the RPM threshold is not also the time to test a home concocted lube. Run the high velocity/RPM test with a known product and then test the home brewed concoction against that. There are numerous good commercial lubes that work at high velocity/RPM such as Javelina, XLOX 2500+, Carnauba Red, LBT Blue, LBT blue soft, and Orange Magic. There are probably others as well but those are the ones I have specifically tested and find them to work equally well. If you are using a bad lube and switch to a good one then a great improvement in accuracy can be had. However, I have found through meticulous tests at high velocity that if you are using a good lube to begin with and switch to another good lube then little to no improvement in accuracy is likely to occur with such high velocity/RPM loads.

Gas Checks;
We basically have 4 types of GCs to pick from. Hornady, Lyman (reputed to be made by Hornady), the GB GCs and the home made ones by various tools. Quite frankly I use all of them and they all give very accurate results if the velocity/RPM level is below the RPM threshold. However when we get above that threshold then some things must be considered. The GC for such loads must have a flat inside bottom for the shank of the cast bullet to seat squarely into. The GB GCs do not have flat inside bottoms and must be flattened with a well fitted punch. I find little difference between Hornady and Lyman GCs, perhaps because they are of the same make. Some anneal the GCs but I do not. I tried it several times and found no benefit in accuracy. One thing that is of benefit to accuracy is the need to seat the GC squarely on the bullet shank. I use several methods to do this but mostly seat GCs as separate step to ensure it is done right. A Lyman GC seater for the 450 Lubrasizer works for most of my needs.

Sizing the cast bullets;
Once the GC is properly seated I prefer to size the bullet in a push through sizer if the bullet is to be sized .001 or more. This also crimps the GC on. A light coat of spray case lube on the cast

[Larry Gibson]

bullets prior to this initial sizing makes them size easily. I like to size the bullets in the push through to the same size as the H die in the 450 Lubrasizer so that there is no bending or distortion of the bullet when run through the 450 for lubing. When lubing the bullets in the 450 I run the bullets into the H die twice to ensure the lube fills all of the lube grooves completely.

I have 4 milsurp 6.5 Swedes. They all have throats of .266-267” diameters. I size the 266455s at .266”. If they are ..0005” over that then the bullets will be pushed back into the case when the round is chambered. Cast bullets for the 6.5 Swede really need to be sized to that close of a fit in the long throat of the Swede for the best accuracy, particularly at the higher velocity/RPM.

Seating the bullets;
I’ve used several 6.5 Swede seating dies over the years and they all work fine with .264 diameter bullets. However most of them don’t work well with .266 or larger cast bullets and most often the larger cast bullet sticks in the seating die and does not seat properly. The seating die can be honed out to allow the larger bullet but this might cause alignment problems with jacketed bullets (yes I do still use them). My solution was a simple one. I use a 7x57 seating die. I thought I might have some concentricity problems but given the neck sizing method I use to adjust neck tension and the long taper neck reaming the 6.5 cast bullets seat straight in the 7x57 die.

Testing;
Testing should be done from a solid bench rest using proven shooting techniques. Testing should be initially done at 100 yards with additional test at 200 yards. Your accuracy goal for cast bullets should be the same as the rifle is capable of with good Jacketed bullet loads. Shoot 5 five shot groups with the quality jacketed loads. If the best group is 1.5” then that is good but not your goal. If the average group size is 2” then that still is not your goal. If the largest group was 2.5” then that is your goal; to shoot consistent 5 shot groups with cast bullet groups of 2.5” or smaller at 100 yards. You and your rifle may shoot better than that as I was just giving an example, not your actual goal. The point is the smallest group is not the accuracy potential of your rifle and neither is ther average group size. The largest group is the accuracy potential be cause you never know when you will shoot that size of group. You can say; “I going to shoot the smallest group now.” Nor can you say; “ now I’ll shoot an average size group.” You just shoot the best you can and the group will be what it is. This is because 25 shots (the aggregate of the 5 five shot groups) going into a 2.5” group is indicative of the accuracy potential of that rifle with that ammunition with you shooting it.

Work up loads in 5 shot groups initially and then switch to 10 shot groups when things look good. If things are really looking good with a particular load then shoot 5 five shot groups of that load or 3 ten shot groups. Either of those tests will show if the load is consistent. If the load is consistent and is at or above the RPM threshold (140,000 RPM) then I suggest a 10 shot group at 200 yards. If the load is indeed good then the group size will be closely linear in size to the 100 yard group size. For example if the 100 yard group is 2” and the 200 yard group is 4- 4.5” then all is well. However if the 200 yard group size is not linear (say it is 8-10”) to the 100 yard group size then the bullets are unbalanced during acceleration and the RPM is causing the attendant inaccuracy.


Conclusion;
Using the above techniques I have loaded very accurate cast bullets loads in numerous milsurp 6.5 Swede rifles. There are other techniques that perhaps work as well. There is no secret to my technique as all of the information is available in Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook, the NRA Cast bullet supplements and numerous other publications. I do not go out in my garage in the dark of the night during the witching hour and brew up anything. No secrets, no myths, no old wife’s tales and no witch craft. There is just good loading technique coupled with an understanding of internal and external ballistics. Anyone with some experience reloading and casting bullets should be able to do what I have done. Keep in mind that the 6.5 Swede is a difficult cartridge to load cast bullets for simply because many load them at too fast a velocity. The fast twist (1 turn in 7.5”) results in extreme RPMs as the velocity increases. Unless all is done correctly in the casting and loading getting accurate loads above the RPM threshold can and is difficult. I have gotten very good accuracy up through 1800-1900 fps out of a couple 6.5 Swedes. However I have not been successful with a consistently accurate load over 2000 fps. Several loads held the promise of a young girls good night kiss but then her dad opened door, i.e. I was not able to consistently duplicate any consistantly accuracy load above 2000 fps. When a couple promissing loads were tested at 200 yards the groups went from 2" or so at 100 yards to 12-20" groups at 200 yards. Hardly linear by anyone's stretch of the imagination. I very seldom could even reproduce the 2" group at 100 yards. Velocities here are 2000 - 2200 fps. This is not to say that I will stop trying.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Very well done Larry. You need to go back and edit the part where you said you sized your bullets to .466. I believe you meant .266.

The part about using 30-06 brass is very good. Takes up all the slack in the neck portion of the chamber and more centers the bullet to the bore then the thin brass. The factory Norma brass for my "secret rifle" is drastically under sized. It's great brass other wise. To give an idea of how much I too use the Scotch tape wrapped around the head on the first firing to center the case. I can get almost three wraps of tape and still chamber the case. No, it's not my chamber, I've had three different chambers and they were all the same size...it's the brass. Another thing wrong with the Norma brass is that the necks are thin. To give you an idea of that when sizing them in a regular full length sizer the expander ball doesn't even drag through the neck one iota. So, as you, I have resorted to differente caliber brass worked down to fit. Mine required and extensive swaging of the head. I built tools for that.

I don't have any of these problems in my 6.5 Grendel. I had a choice of chamber neck diameter and chose the smaller one. For that rifle I have the Redding neck bushing die. Those bushing dies are great. My case fit to the chamber is so close I don't neck size the 6.5 Grendels and besides, as you know, they are fired out of an AR15 so just neck sizing might give some feeding problems. The "secret rifle" does get neck sized only.

Your write up was very good. I especially agree with the primer selection and that unless you are a full hilt competition bench shooter you aren't going to notice much difference in primer selection. There will be exceptions. It boils down to about the same thing that if you do all the benchrest trick in reloading for a sporting hunting rifle you won't notice the benefit as much if the rifle were a competition bench rifle.

There's still more that can be done to insure HV accurate shooting.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMeta

Very well done Larry. You need to go back and edit the part where you said you sized your bullets to .466. I believe you meant .266.

Yes, I did mean ".266". It is edited, thank you.


Larry Gibson

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Congrats as this writeup is the best I have seen on the 6.5. it should be placed among the classic articles done by other forum members. It is a good star to steer by. LLS

[swheeler]

Larry; very good post, but I have to wonder what a M36 Swede is, I own a M96 and have owned two M38's but have to admit I have never heard of a M36? Scot

[O.S.O.K.]

Thank you Larry. Very informative and not one mention of rice paper :)

[Larry Gibson]

Larry; very good post, but I have to wonder what a M36 Swede is, I own a M96 and have owned two M38's but have to admit I have never heard of a M36? Scot

Right you are...another edit. Thanks.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

Larry, your series of posts should be made a sticky. There is a lot of very clear information on how you do it here. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, your series of posts should be made a sticky. There is a lot of very clear information on how you do it here. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

Never made a sticky before, how's it done?

I appreciate the comments.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Never made a sticky before, how's it done?

I appreciate the comments.

Larry Gibson

Larry, I think the best thing or your post,would be for you to contact Wiljen, and see if it could be placed as an article on Castpics. Too good a summary to just sit as a sticky.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I think the best thing or your post,would be for you to contact Wiljen, and see if it could be placed as an article on Castpics. Too good a summary to just sit as a sticky.

I have PM'd him regards doing that. Thanks

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Wow! Thanks for the 'article' Larry. Great information and very interesting. :drinks:

You might consider submitting it for publication in a gun magazine.

[Pat I.]

O.S.O.K.

Some of the posts in this thread with all the master teacher stuff and special secrets are enough to gag a maggot. Just shoot the thing down in the 1600 fps range and you won't have any trouble and it'll shoot. From reading your posts it's obvious you know what you're doing you're just trying to shoot it too fast. I really don't understand the big deal behind shooting a Swede fast anyway. At 1600 it'll shoot good and drill right through anything you shoot it at. In my opinion it's too small to be used for any larger game with cast and there's enough good jacketed bullets that'll do that for you if that's your intent.

[StarMetal]

O.S.O.K.

Some of the posts in this thread with all the master teacher stuff and special secrets are enough to gag a maggot. Just shoot the thing down in the 1600 fps range and you won't have any trouble and it'll shoot. From reading your posts it's obvious you know what you're doing you're just trying to shoot it too fast. I really don't understand the big deal behind shooting a Swede fast anyway. At 1600 it'll shoot good and drill right through anything you shoot it at. In my opinion it's too small to be used for any larger game with cast and there's enough good jacketed bullets that'll do that for you if that's your intent.

Well if you read what O.S.O.K. first posted it's obvious in his first attempt that the bullet was going too slow to stabilize. Then Waksupi made his smart remark about the Swede won't shoot fast, so began the agrument again. Wasn't long before Larry and 45 2.1 got in on it. If some post choke a maggot such as you say why you even reading it and posting? You didn't learn your lesson over on the Accurate forum when Larry and I were going at it and you said my 6.5 Grendel wouldn't do 2400 fps with a 140 bullet with 4198. That it would blow the rifle up. Just showed you didn't know squat about the 6.5 Grendel cartridge or the AR15.

The secret rifle was just to have a little fun and spice the posts up some.

I have the test result from the secret rifle and I'm debating whether to post them or not. I know the first thing Larry will say and that's that I have another exception rifle. Let's see, that makes three, possibly four, exception rifles I have then. I don't think so. There was no bigger critic of 45 2.1 and his techniques then me. Isn't that a surprise. Everyone would think Larry was his biggest critic. I've had countless arguments with 45 2.1 over this. It's like Einsteins theories (and don't take that statement and screw it around to something that it's not) the more people tried/try to prove Einstein wrong the more they found he was right. Ditto with 45 2.1's technique. Well it all came together and as hard as it was to get there, the whole concept of it really is easy.

Yeah, nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree.

Larry's description of how to reload for cast is very good...for the beginners. Anyone that knows anything about accurate shooting or competition, like Felix, knows that already. Probably one of the first accuracy tricks anyone learns is neck sizing produces better groups then full length sizing. Yes there are many rifles that shoot full length sized cartridges very good. Larry even covered bullet fit, thick necks, fast and slow powders....but he still didn't mention keeping the powder combustion heat off the bullet.

Two predictions because the Cast Boolit crowd is so predictable. One: Larry will make excuses with my groups even though I followed his instructions. Two: This thread will get locked by the administrators because velocity/rpm threads always do.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I read and posted for the same reason I would slow down at a train wreck, I don't really want to but can't help myself. Nice historical rewrite of the Accurate debate though but you left a major portion out.

Looking at the OP's loads and estimated velocity I don't think they'd be going too slow to stabilize a 150 gr bullet. The OP also said he wasn't interested in paper patching so if you're suggesting a wad or filler to keep the heat off the bullet just say so. If you're talking about PPing just say that too.

I can't understand why a simple question can't get a simple answer can you? Nothing can be that complicated can it? If something was puzzling to someone I'm sure there's enough people here that would be willing to help out or translate.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

Go ahead and post your test results from your "secret" rifle. However, this thread is about the 6.5 Swede in a milsurp rifle so if your "secret" rifle is not a milsurp 6.5 Swede mighten' it be better to start your own thread? That way we could discuss the merits of your "secret" rifle based on itself and not in comparison to the topic of this thread. One suggestion if you start a new thread; this time post all the information this time instead of a partial amount. If we are to assess or make a judgement then we need all of the information.

Thank you for prejudging what I will think/say. As usual you could be wrong.

Assuming you are refering to your own post with; "nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree". We are in agreement there;-)

BTW; if "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff?

Larry Gibson

[45nut]

This thread will get locked by the administrators because velocity/rpm threads always do.

Joe

I will certainly make it a priority to leave this and other such threads open simply because I find the subjects quite interesting myself,,all we need is for everyone to stay on topic and leave the name calling behind..Deal?

This IS a discussion board first and foremost,, it is not somewhere to hurl insults back and forth. That's why every thread gets locked, if everyone can leave that out.. we are golden!

I for one am quite aware of conflicting personalities and techniques and conclusions such threads off, but I am also quite aware the same factors can result in advances in our craft by such threads.

< not Einstein here!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I think the best thing or your post,would be for you to contact Wiljen, and see if it could be placed as an article on Castpics. Too good a summary to just sit as a sticky.

Waksupi

I have forwarded the article to Wiljen for posting in CastPics. I edited the article for spelling, grammer and content. I also added a couple things so you might want to read it there also when posted.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal (Joe)

Go ahead and post your test results from your "secret" rifle. However, this thread is about the 6.5 Swede in a milsurp rifle so if your "secret" rifle is not a milsurp 6.5 Swede mighten' it be better to start your own thread? That way we could discuss the merits of your "secret" rifle based on itself and not in comparison to the topic of this thread. One suggestion if you start a new thread; this time post all the information this time instead of a partial amount. If we are to assess or make a judgement then we need all of the information.

Thank you for prejudging what I will think/say. As usual you could be wrong.

Assuming you are refering to your own post with; "nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree". We are in agreement there;-)

BTW; if "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

See, you're throwing a fly in the ointment already. Never the less I will post the targets and begin a big reply. First let's start with......

Yes I don't own a Swede. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference what the twist is on. Yes I know there are unique characteristics of the Swede chamber. Rifling is rifling unless it's really something totally strange or different such as pologonal. In fact the rifle which I am about to disclose has shallower rifling then the Swede so that should make it harder to shoot at HV if anything. Here is the picture of the rifle:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/SecretRifle.jpg

Okay, what it is: No Scot not a 6.5x47 Lapua although that is one fine caliber. It's an old model 110 Savage action that I acquired from KSCO...might add he's a very gracious man. The barrel is a Lothar Walter stainless....and the long awaited caliber (nothing new here folks) is the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. The rifling twist is 8. This is very very close to the 6.5 Swede...but makes no difference because HV is HV which Larry says is tied forever to rpm. Supposedly nothing out of his rpm range will shoot. Well we shall soon see. I done the 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 meters, yes meters, not yards and I'm still scanning. They will be in my next post.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Okay, let's begin. First the bullet. It's the 6.5 group buy graciously cast and donated to me by 45 2.1. Let me tell you they were very well casted bullets. Gas: Mine...I make my own tools and cut them out of aluminum. Here's the bullet:

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/65CastBullet.jpg

The brass is 7x57 Mauser swaged down by me. By that I mean I had to make tools to swage the head area down which takes much pressure. You cannot do this with a full length resizing die. The load is 29 grains of Accurate 2495. Now Larry please forgive me if I didn't chrono the whole 25 shots because I got through 15 and it started to rain. Also please forgive me if it's not 2400 fps as the average is 2320 which brings us to 208,800 rpm which is well out of your rpm threshold. Here's proof of 15 shots:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/1-15-65.jpg
Here's the average:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/AverV65.jpg
Here's the standard deviation:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/SD65.jpg
Here's the extreme spread:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/ES65.jpg

Yeah, I know, there are lube dents on my chrono screen. Next post are the five targets.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Okay, now the targets. First picture is a pic of all the target because I don't want any poop they were the same target or whatever:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Targets.jpg
Target #1
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Target1.jpg
Target #2
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Target2.jpg
Target #3
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Target3.jpg
Target #4
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Target4.jpg
Target #5
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/Target5.jpg

Look and weep non believers. 45 2.1's technique (that doesn't mean he invented it, means he taught it to me) seems to work at HV. If I took more time, weighed the bullets, etc., etc., I could probably one hole them. I wanted to get this done and it was some work. I had to make the gas checks, load the rounds, shoot them (between rain I might add), scan and post all this.

So what do you say now Larry, Tpr Bret, Waksupi, Pat I, and all others that say it can't be done? So far I've done with this new rifle, my AR15, my Sako 7mm-08, and 6.5 Grendel. Sorry about being a little smart ass about this, but really tired of getting ragged by Larry and others. I get some really rotten post from members about this.

I could have bought this barrel and caliber in a faster twist, but I wanted it in the slowest available from LW just to show Larry and others the 6.5 can be shot at HV and out of his rpm threshold.

One final last thing. The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure. 45 2.1 knows me and quizzed/talked to me by phone for quite some time before he decided that I could do it without blowing my rifles up hurting myself. That's the real reason he won't tell all of you, nor will I.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

As usual I forgot something. I shot all those groups with a dirty barrel. Yup, I didn't want to clean and have a fouling shot I would have to defend on the target. Lord knows how many rounds have been through that barrel before the group too! Also forgot to mention that the lube was LBT Blue soft. Testimonial, at least to me, how well it conditions your bore.

Joe
P.S. I'm looking for a M38 Swede by the way.

[45nut]

I know a M 96 Carl Gustav that just might be available Joe.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

No fly in the ointment, you want to hijack this thread then so be it as long as every one else is in agreement.

That obviously is a nice custom barreled rifle and it shoots very nicely. It is a far cry from a milsurp Swede which was, in fact, the topic of this thread and the topic of my article. Let me point out that you continually infer that the RPM threshold I refer to is a “limit” that can not be gone above and maintain any accuracy with cast bullets. Let me tell you once again, like I have so many times in the past that that is not the case at all. I have repeatedly stated that you can go above the RPM threshold only that it is difficult to do so. At least you agree that it is difficult to do so. Accuracy at high velocity is tied forever to RPM. It just is a little more difficult to control than when the velocity/RPM is under the RPM threshold.

Nice picture of the bullet. You could have given us the weight of the bullet though. That’s part of the information I asked for. A little more information would have been nice. I was nice enough to ask for all of the information but as usual you neglect to provide it. I understand you not wanting to weigh every bullet but weighing one and giving us the weight wouldn’t have killed you, would it? Anyways 45 2.1’s GB bullet looks an awful lot like a 266455 with a FN on it. Strange that 45 2.1 and I seem to agree on what the best design for such is, don’t you think? I shall assume the bullet, fully dressed weighs in between 130 and 140 grs. Appears the lube is LBT Soft?

Forming the cases from 7x57 cases should give you a bit smaller case capacity than Norma cases and possibly thicker necks also.

“The load is 29 grains of Accurate 2495.” Ok, so you are using AAs 4895 and 29 gr you get 2320 fps out what length barrel?

I’ll take your targets at face value and congratulate you on your success. I’ll also remind you that I never said it couldn’t be done. It is you, and a couple others, who keep saying that.

Now I will call BS on one thing, you state;

“The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure. 45 2.1 knows me and quizzed/talked to me by phone for quite some time before he decided that I could do it without blowing my rifles up hurting myself. That's the real reason he won't tell all of you, nor will I.”

Now, the fact that the max load for 4895 in the Lyman Manual for a 160 gr jacketed bullet is 34 gr, for a 140 gr jacketed bullet it is 36 gr and for the 129 gr jacketed bullet it is 38 gr. I have loaded for the 6.5 MS and know what the max loads are for those bullets and Lyman's manual is correct. Given my experience with the 6.5 MS and the loading data available quite frankly I do not by that "dangerous and a pressure raiser for sure" part and I don’t think anyone else other than 45 2.1 will either. Thus can you explain how a load of 29 gr of an equivalent 4895 is “dangerous” with a 130-140 gr cast bullet? If something is 'dangerous" isn't it rather childish and contraire to safety for you not to tell us?

BTW; I kindly asked you to answer 2 questions; "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff ?” It would be nice and it would lend a lot of credibility to your posts if you would answer those 2 questions.

One additional question; can you please now tell us how to shoot such cast bullet groups at such velocity in a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with original sights? That was the topic of this thread you know, or perhaps you don’t know that.

Again, congrats on some fine high velocity shooting with cast bullets and your ability to push the RPM threshold with them. I told you it could be done and apparently you've succeeded. I see nor read nothing in your last post that is a “secret” to your success. It appears to be almost exactly how I said to do it in my post here and how I’ve said to do it on numerous other threads. Nice to know you and 45 2.1 are paying attention to my testing and writings regarding the results and how to push the RPM threshold. Obviously neither of you will admit to that and will no doubt go off on some rant about it. Fact is, as I said in my article; “There is no secret to any of the techniques I use as all of the information is available in Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook, the NRA Cast bullet supplements and numerous other publications.”

You have shown us that it can be done following the steps I outlined and by using a nice custom barreled rifle with a scope on it. Well done in that regard.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Joe, I don't recall ever saying that it couldn't be done in the bore size. I have always held it is very difficult to do in a military Swede.

[StarMetal]

I know a M 96 Carl Gustav that just might be available Joe.

Ken is it a Model 38?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

Now you have gone and done it.....got me all riled up and I had to go pull one of my 6.5 Swedes out of the gun safe. It is a SR Mexican M98 action piller bedded and MicroBed'd into a Fajen stock. The barrel was a new "in the white" M38 barrel milsurp that was easy to screw on the action. Headsapce is tight as with cases that are completely FL sized in the RCBS FL diie can just be felt as the bolt is closed on them. It has a 9X scope on it and she shoots into sub moa with 120 gr Sierra's and 129 gr Hornadys. Trigger is a Timney and breaks clean at 2 lbs. I've not done any cast bullet work with it yet. I put it together before I went to iraq, did some intial tests with known loads and then put it in the gun safe and haven't had it out shooting since. My other HV load testing has been with my M38 scout with a Leupold 2X scout scope on it. It shoots well enough but the 2X scope leaves something to be desired for serious group testing. Attached is a picture of the rifle and another of the 266455 bullets (do they look familiar?) with a '06 formed neck of the cartridge. The bullets shown are only partially lubed. I do that when i shoot them down at 1400 fps (fine grouse load when hunting deer).

Darn, I have so little time between now and when winter and hunting season sets in......sometimes you really irritate me as I'll lose sleep over this now:-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Well let's recap some of the things you've said here Larry:

Did I tell you of shooting a 10 shot group at high velocity with cast bullets out of my 6.5 Swede? Well 3 of those shots were within MOA so it's an MOA load! All I've got to do is pay attention to the "masters" and figure out what made those 3 shots land within an MOA of each other! As to the other 7 shots? Obviously they landed upards of 8" from the "group" so I must have "torn the rice paper".........

My groups didn't turn out that way today and I have to fool around doing something else until the barrel cooled down some.

You are "seriously" correct. Welcome to the world of "myths, secrets, old wife's tales and witchcraft" regarding cast bullets at high velocity. Go ahead and cast some of 50/50 alloy, HT or WQ them, let them age, slap some LBT Blue on 'em and fill the case up with a slow powder.....go test them and then come back ans some of us will tell you point blank why the accuracy still sucks.

Okay, I did. Tell me my accuracy sucked.

and waksupi said this:

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah

I did and look at how unbent they were and the nice groups they shot....fast.

One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

I shot your prescribed amount of shots and group..from a dirty barrel too.

So go ahead and shoot those bullets faster as you want to, we'll be waiting for your results.

The waiting is over. The excuses begin.

..and this:

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates.

I love the way my accuracy deteriorated today :razz:


....and this:

Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

I did.

...and this:

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Well apparently those of you on the forum sqwaking haven't proved the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and similar publications does tell you everything because you're not doing it.

....and this:

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion

You said five consecutive five shot groups. I did it...out of a dirty barrel I might add..except it really wasn't dirty because the LBT kept it pretty clean.

...and this:

The problems are several; first there is the fast twist. Normal cast bullets are adversely affected by RPM above a certain threshold. That threshold is in the 120-140,000 RPM range.

Where were my cast bullets adversely affected by RPM above your mentioned threshold in my five targets? Like I said I didn't even cull the bullets.

....and this:

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

I did go to work and now you're making excuses like I said you would. There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede. I believe I proved myself on four of them.

...and I said this:

I'll admit and I think 45 2.1 will agree that it's hard to shoot HV with a very fast twist. Let me clarify the word "hard". By that I mean you have to do lot's of work and testing to find that "pressure" sweet spot.

Did you see there what I mentioned hard to mean?

Larry the barrel on my rifle isn't custom. It's an off the shelf LW barrel. The length is 23 inchs. It's also of a very light sporter weight. The rifle is as average as you can get. The stock is a Ramline (which didn't even fit the old 110 action) and the scope is just a cheapo Tasco 3x9 World Class. So don't make it sound like I have some kind of high dollar competition rifle. The old 110 Savage is just that, the old action with the "old" trigger.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Starmetal (Joe)

Now you have gone and done it.....got me all riled up and I had to go pull one of my 6.5 Swedes out of the gun safe. It is a SR Mexican M98 action piller bedded and MicroBed'd into a Fajen stock. The barrel was a new "in the white" M38 barrel milsurp that was easy to screw on the action. Headsapce is tight as with cases that are completely FL sized in the RCBS FL diie can just be felt as the bolt is closed on them. It has a 9X scope on it and she shoots into sub moa with 120 gr Sierra's and 129 gr Hornadys. Trigger is a Timney and breaks clean at 2 lbs. I've not done any cast bullet work with it yet. I put it together before I went to iraq, did some intial tests with known loads and then put it in the gun safe and haven't had it out shooting since. My other HV load testing has been with my M38 scout with a Leupold 2X scout scope on it. It shoots well enough but the 2X scope leaves something to be desired for serious group testing. Attached is a picture of the rifle and another of the 266455 bullets (do they look familiar?) with a '06 formed neck of the cartridge. The bullets shown are only partially lubed. I do that when i shoot them down at 1400 fps (fine grouse load when hunting deer).

Darn, I have so little time between now and when winter and hunting season sets in......sometimes you really irritate me as I'll lose sleep over this now:-)

Larry Gibson

Ooops...sorry...didn't mean to rile you up. This has been festering inside me for a long time. Know what I told 45 2.1 when it all came together for me? I said "You poophead (cleaned up for the kids in our audience) you've created a monster". He laughed. I went on to name all the calibers I was going to experiment with now.

If and when I get a 6.5 Swede I will put a scope on it. My eyes are just too bad. Shucks, look at my custom drawn bullsyes on those five targets. I can don't see those through my 3x9 scope as clear as you younger fellows do.

Larry, you inspired me. Like I said I deliberately ordered that 6.5x54MS barrel with the fast twist to prove you wrong. I was going to go all the way and get it with the original bore and rifling and didn't because both are really "fat" and it's hard enough as it is finding a 6.5 mould that casts them fat. Other then that it has the long long throat for the heavy 160 grain bullets and is a hair withing the original twist. Lothar Walther can provide you with original spec barrel per caliber. They have two pages on their barrel sight and one is for Amerian calibers and the other for European. They make barrels for everything including pellet rifles.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I didn't answer your statement about the 7x57 cases having less capacity. I thought that too when I made them up, but found it's hardly anything. I done some 30-06 cases and although they worked the necks definitely have to be trimmed....way way too thick. The 7x57's oddly weren't. They are a mix too, of RP, WIN, and FED. I need to make another batch. I told you how undersized the heads are on my Norma and I have a poopload of those too darn. They did affect accuracy, but worse the necks are grossly thin. They don't split, but the also don't have good neck tension. What a shame, nice brass.

I've played around with this rifle some with jacketed to break the barrel in and come to the conclusion that it's not hotter then the 6.5 Grendel. Yup, that little Grendel can beat it. I fought that at first a little Grendel which is 6.5x39-40 and skinnier case beating the old 6.5x54MS. I thought too that the old Mannlicher was just loaded down pressure wise for the older rifles out there, but found out that trying to push it didn't work. It actually did build up high pressure and fast.

Joe

[303Guy]

Pat I.

You are quite right in what you say and I might even agree with you - in fact I do agree with you but is't the fun factor and the challange! I think we are all having fun here watching and hoping that O.S.O.K. will succeed![smilie=1: WE WANT him to succeed!:mrgreen:
We are learning stuff along the way, too! (At least I am. :roll: )

StarMetal

There is only one thing to say to your target results;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif


Beauty! :drinks:

(Now iff'n you had used nice official targets, I could have used them as my wallpaper!:mrgreen:)

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;658338]Well let's recap some of the things you've said here Larry:

Did I tell you of shooting a 10 shot group at high velocity with cast bullets out of my 6.5 Swede? Well 3 of those shots were within MOA so it's an MOA load! All I've got to do is pay attention to the "masters" and figure out what made those 3 shots land within an MOA of each other! As to the other 7 shots? Obviously they landed upards of 8" from the "group" so I must have "torn the rice paper".........

My groups didn't turn out that way today and I have to fool around doing something else until the barrel cooled down some.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.
You are "seriously" correct. Welcome to the world of "myths, secrets, old wife's tales and witchcraft" regarding cast bullets at high velocity. Go ahead and cast some of 50/50 alloy, HT or WQ them, let them age, slap some LBT Blue on 'em and fill the case up with a slow powder.....go test them and then come back ans some of us will tell you point blank why the accuracy still sucks.

Okay, I did. Tell me my accuracy sucked.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context. Nor were you using a "cruize missle" as was the originator of the thread.

and waksupi said this:

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah

I did and look at how unbent they were and the nice groups they shot....fast.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.
One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

I shot your prescribed amount of shots and group..from a dirty barrel too.

So you say but is there a point here? Where in this thread did I say to clean the barrel between groups except with my experiemce using soft alloy and long nosed FP bullets? Where did I tell anyone to clean between groups? In the past I told you to do so if you wanted to and even allowed for a fouler or two. You really need to quit halucinating stuff up Joe. I've already congradulated you on your success. I suppose this is part of your ranting because you can't prove I said the RPM threshold was a "limit"? Sorry Joe, wrong again.

So go ahead and shoot those bullets faster as you want to, we'll be waiting for your results.

The waiting is over. The excuses begin.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.

Anybody getting tired of Joe not figuring it out?
..and this:

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates.

I love the way my accuracy deteriorated today :razz:

Nice razz but out of context as usual. No your accuracy did not deteriorate but Buckshots did. That was what the response was to. BTW; Buckshot was using a milsurp 6.5 Swede and a regualr cast bullet with a bore riding nose and you weren't, get the point yet?

....and this:

Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

I did.

That you did and congradulations again. Now Joe, I wish I could have been there to see the jig you danced after that 5th group and heard the shouting but you are getting on in age and you could hurt yourself;-)
...and this:

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Well apparently those of you on the forum sqwaking haven't proved the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and similar publications does tell you everything because you're not doing it.

And you haven't done it from a 6.5 milsurp Swede yet either:-)
....and this:

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion

You said five consecutive five shot groups. I did it...out of a dirty barrel I might add..except it really wasn't dirty because the LBT kept it pretty clean.

Careful Joe, you'll hurt yourself!
...and this:

The problems are several; first there is the fast twist. Normal cast bullets are adversely affected by RPM above a certain threshold. That threshold is in the 120-140,000 RPM range.

Where were my cast bullets adversely affected by RPM above your mentioned threshold in my five targets? Like I said I didn't even cull the bullets.

Out of context again and still inferring the RPM threshold is a "limit". It's not Joe, several of us have proved that including you. Is there a real point here?
....and this:

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

I did go to work and now you're making excuses like I said you would. There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede. I believe I proved myself on four of them.

No excuses from me Joe. Your'e theone with the excuse; "There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede" I and everyone but you knows there is a hell of a lot of difference between a Walther-Lothar barrel and a Swede barrel. Betwen a bullet for a .263/.264 (you didn't say which) and a .266 milsurp Swede barrel with a milsurp chamber. Not to mention the difference in stocks, triggers, lock time and how about the scope vs iron milsurp sights? You need to get real Joe. You've done a marvelous job pushing the RPM threshold with your custom barreled rifle. I would think that should be enough to gloat over. I certainly would and probably will gloat when I get to testing in my M98 Mex/Swede mentioned above.

...and I said this:

I'll admit and I think 45 2.1 will agree that it's hard to shoot HV with a very fast twist. Let me clarify the word "hard". By that I mean you have to do lot's of work and testing to find that "pressure" sweet spot.

Did you see there what I mentioned hard to mean?

[COLOR="red"][B]If you understand that then you should be able to grasp that the RPM threshold is not a "limit". It can be pushed through with a good bullet of correct fit and design and some "hard" work developing the load. There, I've said it again. Can't you agree with me now?

Larry the barrel on my rifle isn't custom. It's an off the shelf LW barrel. The length is 23 inchs. It's also of a very light sporter weight. The rifle is as average as you can get. The stock is a Ramline (which didn't even fit the old 110 action) and the scope is just a cheapo Tasco 3x9 World Class. So don't make it sound like I have some kind of high dollar competition rifle. The old 110 Savage is just that, the old action with the "old" trigger.

[COLOR="red"]Joe, I don't know about where you live but rifles with "after market" (is that better than custom?) Walther-Lothar (or visa versa) are as rare as hens teeth. I seriously doubt if you'll find many of them around on milsurp 6.5 Swedes. Now the Savage M110 may be an "old action to you but it does out class the M96 Mauser action in accuracy potential. And I've adjusted enough of the "old" M110 triggers (they are adjustable unlike the M96/M38 triggers) to know what can be done with them.

As to the Ramline stock, well my Fajen was made for another action also and took a little fitting. The scope on mine is also a TASCO 3x9 World class. So it looks like we're pretty much matched up except I don't need no steeking LW barrel! O gotss a real 6.5 Swede barrel;-) guess that puts me one up on you as far as this thread goes. Well hopefully you've not had the "big H" from all that hooping and hollering;-) I'm looking forward to matching the accuracy capability at the same velocity with my Mex/Swede 6.5. However I do not expect the groups to be as good as yours considering the difference in barrels. However I do think I can at least duplicate the consitency of accuracy. I believe I said at the close of my article that I had not quit trying and I have not.


BTW. You are, as usuall, ignoring the specific questions asked in of you in my last two posts to you here. Could I please have an answer to those questions?

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Larry Gibson

On the RPM issue, I accept that there is such a threashold but my question is on where that threashold is? It must surely be boolit diameter specific? Or boolit diameter/length specific maybe?

Taking the question further, how much does the boolit length and pressure threashold (yield stress related) influence the issue? (Keeping in mind that lead flows under stress).

Finally, muzzle pressure - if the muzzle pressure is too high the boolit could be 'bumped up' as it exits the muzzle?

[Russel Nash]

Holy cow! :takinWiz:

These internet ...ahem...seed spitting contests are always fun to watch.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/chills1994/popcornEmoticon.gif

[Larry Gibson]

Ooops...sorry...didn't mean to rile you up. This has been festering inside me for a long time. Know what I told 45 2.1 when it all came together for me? I said "You poophead (cleaned up for the kids in our audience) you've created a monster". He laughed. I went on to name all the calibers I was going to experiment with now.

If and when I get a 6.5 Swede I will put a scope on it. My eyes are just too bad. Shucks, look at my custom drawn bullsyes on those five targets. I can don't see those through my 3x9 scope as clear as you younger fellows do.

Larry, you inspired me. Like I said I deliberately ordered that 6.5x54MS barrel with the fast twist to prove you wrong. I was going to go all the way and get it with the original bore and rifling and didn't because both are really "fat" and it's hard enough as it is finding a 6.5 mould that casts them fat. Other then that it has the long long throat for the heavy 160 grain bullets and is a hair withing the original twist. Lothar Walther can provide you with original spec barrel per caliber. They have two pages on their barrel sight and one is for Amerian calibers and the other for European. They make barrels for everything including pellet rifles.

Joe

Glad I inspired you and now I am inspired by your results, just have to work the time angle. The Lothar Walther barrels are indeed good and I have one on a pellet rifle. However "poorly" made you think your rifle may be (perhaps you "bubba'd it?) it still is far from a "factory rifle" and ergo falls into the "custom" catagory as in "customised" even if you did the work yourself.

Again, however, there were a couple specific questions I asked you in a previous post (actually 2 previous posts). Could I have an answer?

I always look forward to these challenges. Now I've got some bullets to cast.......

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

303Guy

On the RPM issue, I accept that there is such a threashold but my question is on where that threashold is? It must surely be boolit diameter specific? Or boolit diameter/length specific maybe?

The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type. For most calibers up through 8mm that is in the 120-140,000 RPM range. As calibers get larger the RPM threshold goes up. The reason is, given equal defects, the defect in a 170 gr 30 cal cast bullet is a larger % of the mass of the bullet than in a 250 gr .35 caliber bullet. Of course if we go up into even larger bullets the % gets even smaller. The larger the % of themass the defect is the greater the imbalance. Also with larger caliber bullets if the defect is on the exterior (most are caused during accelleration and are on the exterior) it is farther from the center of spin and travels at a slower rotational velocity than an equal defect on a smaller caliber bullet. The slower rotational velocity of the defect (or mor appropriatly where the imbalance is) the less affect the centrafugal force has on it. It may not seem like much of a difference but at 140-200,00+ RPM the differences are magnified tremdously.

The RPM threshold is not a fixed number because the other variables such as the design of the bullet, rate of acclleration, the alloy, etc. also have their effect on just where that threshold is. However rest assured that any cast bullet will have a RPM threshold. It can be pushed high but it will happen. Mostly it has to do with how well we control the obturation of the bullet during acclleration given a well cast bullet that "fits". The larger the amount of obturation, upsetting, bending, set back, crooked base, etc. that occurs to the bullet during accelleration the lower the RPM threshold will be.

Taking the question further, how much does the boolit length and pressure threashold (yield stress related) influence the issue? (Keeping in mind that lead flows under stress).

[Cast bullets of regular design obviously can shoot pretty well under the RPM threshold even if somewhat ill fitting. Ideally to push the RPM threshold the bullet must fit the neck of the cartridge, the throat and the lead with little nose extending into the bore. Note the picture of the GB bullet Starmetal used and the 266455 I use). The yeild stress of the alloy then determines how much obturation there is given the accelleration rate. A soft ductle alloy is preferable because the set back of the bullet during accelleration will be even and the balance of the bullet will be maintained. There is a balance to found of ally hardness and it's ductle ability under accellleration. Hard brittle alloys are prone to bend and/or chip during accelleration which creates imbalances.[/I]

Finally, muzzle pressure - if the muzzle pressure is too high the boolit could be 'bumped up' as it exits the muzzle?[/QUOTE]

I'm not a believer in that theory. I've measured enough time pressure curves of a multitude of different loads now to know that the "exit pressures" of cast bullet loads, even the actual high velocity ones, are of such that they are well below the tensle strength of even pure lead. Given a normal powder for say an '06 jacketed max load the exit pressure from even a 20" barrel is down in the 7,000 to 9,000 psi range. In 22 an longer barrels it is less.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I'm sorry what questions are they specifically? I'm not answering the one on the technique, done told you that already.

Would you consider an E. R. Shaw barrel a custom barrel? I wouldn't. I consider custom as something the gunsmith did to make your barrel/rifle unique.

The dimensions on the barrel are: Bore .256 and groove .2639. Chamber is the standard 6.5x54MS. I gave you the length at 23 inches and it has the long freebore. I believe the neck chamber area is generous.

I have a Yugo 48B that was unissued and put a Williams receiver sight on it. With the Lee 175 grain bullet I've shot 5/8 groups with it using 844 surplus. Those rifles were made shortly after WWII and had been in storage for a very long time. Point being they are the old school barrels, actions, and triggers. No it's not a Swede, but rifle wise pretty close. Can it shoot consistent 5/8 groups? Probably, but I can't not with receiver sights. Shall I scope it?

You 98 Swede is about the same or more custom then mine. I'm not pillar bedded and I don't have an after market trigger. Say all you want about the old 110 trigger, but Savage isn't using it anymore either are they? I don't know what to tell you about the LW barrel, they are just a well made barrel and they are one of the largest barrel makers in the country if not the world. They have a plant here in Atlanta, GA and the one in Germany. Now if your M38 barrel is new I would expect it to pretty good. Look at how my Yugo 98 shoots and look how a lot of the 03 Springfields, Krag, Finns, and K31's shoot. Excuses Larry. I have a few friend that have 96 Swedes and did nothing but scoped them and had the bolts bent that out shoot most modern rifles.



Well let's see when I get a model 38 Swede. Inbetween then I'll be anxiously awaiting your 2300-2400 fps groups from you "custom" Swede.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Uh, Joe? I had no dog in this fight till you put me in it. My sole post was an answer to someone wondering if the Lee Cruise Missile was an easy one to get shooting fast. I told him the truth, it isn't. Not from a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. Anything north of 1600 fps gets pretty iffy with that boolit. Now, if you'd like to show us some of your famous "ragged one hole groups" made with a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 with the factory barrel and the Cruise Missile then I will be the first guy to congratulate you. But a Walther-Lothar barrel in 6.5x54MS on a Savage 110 shooting a 140ish grain Loverin boolit is NOT a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with the factory barrel shooting the Cruise Missile.

I still have no dog in this fight really. I'm just sitting back watching the blood letting over "secret rifles" and claims that we're all too stupid to safely handle the "secret information" that only the chosen few are privy to. It's been like this for years and I always hope someone will just be honest and open instead of secretive and clandestine. Whats the use of even posting? Is the whole purpose is just to show us we're too dumb to understand?

[StarMetal]

Larry say: The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type.

Oh? I thought the bore riders were the abnormal. Not to matter, my Saeco 140 grain is a true bore rider without must bearing band length and I shoot it HV with accuracy from my 6.5 Grendel AR15.

By the way I don't shoot it out of the 6.5x54MS because even seated only to the gas check depth it doesn't begin to touch the throat. Remember I told you that the 6.5x54MS has a long freebore.

Looks like you're changing the rules on the rpm threshold theory. Now it's for a particular kind of cast bullet....the normal cast bullet of bore riding design.

Here's what I think are bore riders: The 314299/312299 and the Saeco 140 grain. I look at the 311284 as half and half. The one bullet you mentioned the 266455 is not a bore rider.

So what are we saying here? O.S.O.K. can't shoot bore riders if he wants accuracy and HV? Too many rules you keep making up as we go along. Tell you what, instead of making your recent loading technique post a sticky, why not make a sticky listing "all" of your rule/requires?

Joe

[303Guy]

Thank you kindly, Larry.

That clarifies a few things for me.:drinks:

(For example, more ductile alloys obturating more evenly ... I had wondered about inconsistencies in an alloys hardness, even from a slight temperature or cooling rate difference in the mold!)

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Larry say: The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type.

Oh? I thought the bore riders were the abnormal. Not to matter, my Saeco 140 grain is a true bore rider without must bearing band length and I shoot it HV with accuracy from my 6.5 Grendel AR15.

By the way I don't shoot it out of the 6.5x54MS because even seated only to the gas check depth it doesn't begin to touch the throat. Remember I told you that the 6.5x54MS has a long freebore.

Looks like you're changing the rules on the rpm threshold theory. Now it's for a particular kind of cast bullet....the normal cast bullet of bore riding design.

You are just plumb amazing Joe. You have pushed the RPM threshold successfully and I have congratulated you on your achievement and you still want to argue useless points. I have not changed the "rules". You were repeatedly ask to provide you definition of the RPM threshold on two other forums. You failed to do so then and now you say I'm changing the "rules"? I'm the one who has to continually correct your misconstruances (how do like that word!) regarding the RPM threshold and now you want to correct me! That is incredulous!

Here's what I think are bore riders: The 314299/312299 and the Saeco 140 grain.

You are correct.

I look at the 311284 as half and half.
You're entitled to your opinion.

The one bullet you mentioned the 266455 is not a bore rider.

You think!!!! How about it is a "Lovern design" just as I called it. Do you have a point to this nonsense?

So what are we saying here? O.S.O.K. can't shoot bore riders if he wants accuracy and HV? Too many rules you keep making up as we go along. Tell you what, instead of making your recent loading technique post a sticky, why not make a sticky listing "all" of your rule/requires?

Can you believe this folks, this is what he does with success.......


In another post you said you'd forgotten the two questions I asked again about for I can't recall how many times. Actually there are several questions I’ve asked in this thread that you’ve failed to answer. Here they are again as copied from the original post. I would appreciate an answer to them but since you’ve already admitted, agreed or whatever you want to call it that loading above the RPM threshold was "hard" then you've already answered the first question with a contradiction. Thus the other questions still remain unanswered.

BTW; I kindly asked you to answer 2 questions; "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff ?” It would be nice and it would lend a lot of credibility to your posts if you would answer those 2 questions.

Additional questions; can you please now tell us how to shoot such cast bullet groups at such velocity in a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with original sights? That was the topic of this thread you know, or perhaps you don’t know that?

The additional question regarding you and 45 2.1 thinking your “secret” loads were “dangerous”; “Given my experience with the 6.5 MS and the loading data available quite frankly I do not by that "dangerous and a pressure raiser for sure" part and I don’t think anyone else other than 45 2.1 will either. Thus can you explain how a load of 29 gr of an equivalent 4895 is “dangerous” with a 130-140 gr cast bullet?


Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.

As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.

That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.

A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way. I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there? If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?

Joe

[Pat I.]

So what do you say now Larry, Tpr Bret, Waksupi, Pat I, and all others that say it can't be done?
Joe

I'll say the same thing I said before. Pictures on the internet mean absolutely nothing to me and prove nothing. I can't take someone serious who doesn't give one shread of loading data up to and including the range. I have no intent of getting into it with you again but my offer from our last debate still stands although because of my job we'd have to make arrangements around my schedule.

I consider myself a fairly competent reloader and caster so if you trust me enough to let me know the secret a PM would be appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.

Agreed. And if you'd have paid close attention to the posts here you'd have noticed the sub 2 moa you ranted about was with the Swede rifle and issue sights. I know sub 2 mo with the issue sights is quite possible so consitent sub 2 moa cast bullet loads at 2400 +/- fps should be doable, right?
As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.

I'm still calling BS on this "non answer".

That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.

I'm not "going again" just answering your questions and comments. Probably would have been better if that post had come first but seems as both of us were pounding the keyboard at the same time and the messages got crossed. It happens, no big deal and nothing to get excited about.

A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way.

Not quite so, It can be spun a lot harder on the Corvette and turned and twisted a lot harder too. You can get away with 2 ply cord tires on the models A for 100% of it's driving. What percentage of driving do you think they would last on the Corvette? The point is if you want performance you ust pick the right tire (design and construction) for the job. The same with cast bullets at high velocity.

I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there?

Joe, I figured you knew better than that. If the bullet drops at .267 and you sized to .266 for the Swede and .264 for the MS the bullet is swaged more in the smaller sizing, the driving bands are wider, the grooves are shallower and the length of bearing surface increases. All of this makes for a better bullet that has less defects, less room for the bullet to callapse into and more bearing surface for better overall support. It is the simple reason why the 7mm "regular" cast bullets with bore riding noses fit your other 6.5 so well and shoot so well. They were never "regualr" 6.5 cast bullets to begin with and you custom (there's that word again) swaged them down to fit your 6.5. Hardly the same as someone buying a real "regular" 6.5 boring mould and using it.

If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?

As mentioned by others now in this thread if you have a rebarreled action with a commercial barrel in a new stock and a scope on it you basically aren't shooting a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle. That seems plain enough to all but you. I've had a E.R. Shaw 6.5-280 barrel for years as my long range rock chuck gun. The throat was shot out pretty bad at about 1800 round and i lost 1.5" of barrel when I set it back. It's got maybe 500 shots left in it. It always shot in the .5's and .6s with Hornady 129 gr SPs. I killed 2 rock chucks at a measured 800 yards with 3 shots (first shot hit just off the right side and i corrected for the misjudgement of the wind and smoked the two chucks with the next two shots). I tell you this because I've had several of their barrels over the years and they all shot well so I'm not buying your advance snivel about the E.R. Shaw barrel. However I still like the idea of shooting the Mex/Swede against your rifles, even with their custom barrels. Come to think of it I guess my Mex/Swede is a "custom" rifle also;-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Uh, Joe? I had no dog in this fight till you put me in it. My sole post was an answer to someone wondering if the Lee Cruise Missile was an easy one to get shooting fast. I told him the truth, it isn't. Not from a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. Anything north of 1600 fps gets pretty iffy with that boolit. Now, if you'd like to show us some of your famous "ragged one hole groups" made with a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 with the factory barrel and the Cruise Missile then I will be the first guy to congratulate you. But a Walther-Lothar barrel in 6.5x54MS on a Savage 110 shooting a 140ish grain Loverin boolit is NOT a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with the factory barrel shooting the Cruise Missile.

I still have no dog in this fight really. I'm just sitting back watching the blood letting over "secret rifles" and claims that we're all too stupid to safely handle the "secret information" that only the chosen few are privy to. It's been like this for years and I always hope someone will just be honest and open instead of secretive and clandestine. Whats the use of even posting? Is the whole purpose is just to show us we're too dumb to understand?

Bret,

I brought you in because I feel, heck I know, you've always doubted my groups.

By the way I'm going to shoot the cruise missile as soon as 45 2.1 casts me some up as I don't have that mould either.

I must be getting old, I'm beginning to get along with you.

:holysheep

Joe

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.

Agreed. And if you'd have paid close attention to the posts here you'd have noticed the sub 2 moa you ranted about was with the Swede rifle and issue sights. I know sub 2 mo with the issue sights is quite possible so consitent sub 2 moa cast bullet loads at 2400 +/- fps should be doable, right?
As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.

I'm still calling BS on this "non answer".

That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.

I'm not "going again" just answering your questions and comments. Probably would have been better if that post had come first but seems as both of us were pounding the keyboard at the same time and the messages got crossed. It happens, no big deal and nothing to get excited about.

A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way.

Not quite so, It can be spun a lot harder on the Corvette and turned and twisted a lot harder too. You can get away with 2 ply cord tires on the models A for 100% of it's driving. What percentage of driving do you think they would last on the Corvette? The point is if you want performance you ust pick the right tire (design and construction) for the job. The same with cast bullets at high velocity.

I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there?

Joe, I figured you knew better than that. If the bullet drops at .267 and you sized to .266 for the Swede and .264 for the MS the bullet is swaged more in the smaller sizing, the driving bands are wider, the grooves are shallower and the length of bearing surface increases. All of this makes for a better bullet that has less defects, less room for the bullet to callapse into and more bearing surface for better overall support. It is the simple reason why the 7mm "regular" cast bullets with bore riding noses fit your other 6.5 so well and shoot so well. They were never "regualr" 6.5 cast bullets to begin with and you custom (there's that word again) swaged them down to fit your 6.5. Hardly the same as someone buying a real "regular" 6.5 boring mould and using it.

If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?

As mentioned by others now in this thread if you have a rebarreled action with a commercial barrel in a new stock and a scope on it you basically aren't shooting a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle. That seems plain enough to all but you. I've had a E.R. Shaw 6.5-280 barrel for years as my long range rock chuck gun. The throat was shot out pretty bad at about 1800 round and i lost 1.5" of barrel when I set it back. It's got maybe 500 shots left in it. It always shot in the .5's and .6s with Hornady 129 gr SPs. I killed 2 rock chucks at a measured 800 yards with 3 shots (first shot hit just off the right side and i corrected for the misjudgement of the wind and smoked the two chucks with the next two shots). I tell you this because I've had several of their barrels over the years and they all shot well so I'm not buying your advance snivel about the E.R. Shaw barrel. However I still like the idea of shooting the Mex/Swede against your rifles, even with their custom barrels. Come to think of it I guess my Mex/Swede is a "custom" rifle also;-)

Larry Gibson

Let's see, where do I jump in? Trying to remember what the 1967 L88 427 Corvette ran for plys in it's tires. Sure nothing comparable to today's tires. I knew when I posted that you would bring up horsepower. One of my motorhead friends told my an engine doesn't know what size carburetor it has on it. That's why you can pull the carb off some big cubic inch engine and put it on a much smaller one and it will run and visa versa. Yeah I know, you loose torque, mileage, power, etc., etc..

I'm not mocking E.R. Shaw. I have one like I said on my 260 build and it's shoot damn fine for my use of it. But here's the diffference. When cleaning it I can feel the unevenness pushing that cleaning patch through it. That's one of the differences between a quality barrel and an economy barrel. I also have a Wilson (another economy barrel) on my 7.2x39 build and it's a tack driver with cast. Too bad that barrel doesn't have a fast twist and enough cartridge to drive a bullet to HV or I'd add it to my list of exceptional rifles and raz you about it. And not I'm not going to shoot some little super light weight bullet in it to do that.

You're right, my rifle isn't a 6.5 Swede and perhaps I sort of did high jack the thread. I could say the same about if a friend has a 220 Swift and he vaporizes bullets with it and I do it with a 22-250 and he says "Yeah, but that's not a 220 Swift". What I am saying is the Swede will do it. Just when it looks like I was going to thin out some of my collection I may be adding to it. What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock? Maybe we will find out.

Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.

Joe

[swheeler]

Joe that's some mighty fine shootin'! At 208k rpm's no less, Austrian, Swede I don't care, I'm not a bigot/savage.

[StarMetal]

Joe that's some mighty fine shootin'! At 208k rpm's no less, Austrian, Swede I don't care, I'm not a bigot/savage.

Thanks Scot!

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Let's see, where do I jump in?

By answering the question in my post you copied would have been a good place to "jump in". I'm still waiting for the answers.

What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock?

Only in your dreams;-)

Maybe we will find out.

Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.

That's the only way to find out, best of luck to you

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Let's see, where do I jump in?

By answering the question in my post you copied would have been a good place to "jump in". I'm still waiting for the answers.

What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock?

Only in your dreams;-)

Maybe we will find out.

Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.

That's the only way to find out, best of luck to you

Larry Gibson


You're not kidding. Will be hard finding a good M38. I may have to get a M96. I can kick myself in the butt. When we moved back to PA I went the Monroeville gunshow (Pittsburgh) area with my best friend. This was later part of 1980's. This one guy had 3 or 4 tables end to end and piled about one foot high with Swedes. I think they were $169 if I remember correctly. Should have bought two. Just wasn't into 6.5's or Swedes back then. Who would have known I've gotten to be a 6.5 fanatic, especially when my favorite rifle cartridge is/was the 7x57 Mauser?

Joe

[Nrut]

Joe I have to agree with Scott...
You did good, met Larry's challenge and no amount of dancing around will change that!

As far as the "secret potentially dicey loading techniques" I am not interested in that as I think you can get around fast twists by other methods such as PP'ing at least for hunting accuracy which is all I am concerned about at this time...

[StarMetal]

Joe I have to agree with Scott...
You did good, met Larry's challenge and no amount of dancing around will change that!

As far as the "secret potentially dicey loading techniques" I am not interested in that as I think you can get around fast twists by other methods such as PP'ing at least for hunting accuracy which is all I am concerned about at this time...


Thanks Nrut.

Try a 25 caliber bullet for your paper patching. Heard you can also paper patch jacketed 25 caliber bullets for the 6.5.

Joe

[Nrut]

Thanks Nrut.

Try a 25 caliber bullet for your paper patching. Heard you can also paper patch jacketed 25 caliber bullets for the 6.5.

Joe
You are right about the .25cal. patching up and I have some 100 gr. .25cal. boolits patched up for my .260 Rem. to try when I have time...
But that is for next summer as I met up with an unexpected retirement a few weeks ago an now have time to hunt this fall for the first time in the last 16 years or so...[smilie=w:

[45 2.1]

I'll say the same thing I said before. Pictures on the internet mean absolutely nothing to me and prove nothing. I can't take someone serious who doesn't give one shread of loading data up to and including the range. You probably need to read the text in posts #106 & #107 and not just look at the pictures. I have no intent of getting into it with you again but my offer from our last debate still stands although because of my job we'd have to make arrangements around my schedule.

I consider myself a fairly competent reloader and caster so if you trust me enough to let me know the secret a PM would be appreciated. Sorry, but you and Larry are not on that list due to your previous posts on this subject. Larry has stated that there is no secret, and maybe he is correct as I have posted the supposed secret at least twice in the past. Maybe you could ask Larry how to do it? He has certainly posted a whole lot of things about loading ammo, albeit those things have only very little to do with the present subject as demonstrated by Joe.

Joe did pretty good. Instead of you other writers dancing around the subject and claiming part of the trophy, why not see if you can meet the requirements that were so kindly (NOT) subjected to Joe. I think we will be waiting a very long time on that. BTW, sub-MOA, at high velocity, with a stock, iron sighted M38 Swede was acheived back in 1988 (yes, quite a few consecutive groups & a season of ground hog shooting also, but that was 10 years before I got on the internet). It can be done easily, provided you know how and that is the question put to Larry Gibson, PatI, among other very talkative people. Do you know how and if so, can you post 5 sequential groups shot at high RPM (at least as high as Joe posted) showing you do know how.We're all waiting for you guys to show us................

[Larry Gibson]

We see 45 2.1 has gone from the sublime to the rediculous as usual. There was a time when my eyes allowed me to shoot moa with my Swede, I won numerous milsurp rifle matches doing so with it. However, like Starmetals admision my eys aren't up to it anymore and neither are 45 2.1s. 45 2.1 knows that.

It takes 2 to dance, so they say, so I'll tell you what; I'll shoot my 6.5 Swede with "HV" cast bullet loads every bit as good as you can shoot yours. How about you posting your own 5 sequential groups shot at high RPM (at least as high as Joe posted) showing you do know how and setting the standard for the rest of us. As usual in the post above you lay claim to what you could o in the past. So I'm waiting for your 5 consecutive 5 shot groups to show me what I have to match. Joe claims 208,800 RPM so that is only 2175 fps with the Swede. An obviously accomplished shooter such as yourself should have no problem with that.

I'm waiiting for you to post your own groups. Until then I'll continue to play with Joe.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

We see 45 2.1 has gone from the sublime to the rediculous as usual. There was a time when my eyes allowed me to shoot moa with my Swede, I won numerous milsurp rifle matches doing so with it. However, like Starmetals admision my eys aren't up to it anymore and neither are 45 2.1s. 45 2.1 knows that. As an old man, Harvey Donaldson, shot some bugholes with aperture sighted rifles. No can do the same Larry?

It takes 2 to dance, so they say, so I'll tell you what; I'll shoot my 6.5 Swede with "HV" cast bullet loads every bit as good as you can shoot yours. How about you posting your own 5 sequential groups shot at high RPM (at least as high as Joe posted) showing you do know how I've already told Joe how to do it, and HE DID. Joe proved himself and me in turn. Now its your turn....... or is your own knowledge and skill much less than what Joe has shown. and setting the standard for the rest of us. As usual in the post above you lay claim to what you could o in the past. So I'm waiting for your 5 consecutive 5 shot groups to show me what I have to match. You have to beat Joe now. He has shown you up, BIGTIME!!! Joe claims 208,800 RPM so that is only 2175 fps with the Swede. An obviously accomplished shooter such as yourself should have no problem with that. More TALK, show us what you can do. I predict all your going to see from Larry is TALK, no action, just talk. Larry can't do it and will do or say anything to NOT prove himself using the standard he set himself.

I'm waiiting for you to post your own groups. Until then I'll continue to play with Joe. You haven't played with Joe yet, he beat you silly, your the one said it couldn't be done, on many posts. I think your mouth can't carry your back end. Man up and show people, or are you afraid of FAILURE and making yourself look bad (that is after all you said).

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Unknown to everyone, 45 2.1 and have been conversing by phone and email on me shooting this 6.5x54MS. Here's the interesting part for you. I was up to 33 grains of 4895. Damn I wish I could remember, the velocity was blistering for a 6.5x54MS even in jacketed. I told Bob I had to pound the bolt handle with the palm of my hand to get it open and the primers were very very flat. See what I mean about the technique now???? Looking in Lymon's cast book they used 4895 in both the 6.5 Jap and 6.5MS and I believe max in the Jap was 32 grains and the 6.5MS was 30 grains. Odd since the Jap has a smaller case capacity. So what I'm saying is 33 grains loaded normal wise isn't dangerous. Technique wise it gets to be. Okay, now for the bad part. Those hot loads still shot 1 inch groups!!!! So if I dare shoot five 5 shot groups of those you're in trouble with your MexSwede because then the velocity will have to much higher then the 2100 fps or so my mentioned. By the way, that really sucks that you have to calculate right down to the last nitty gritty in adjusting the my velocity down to the what the rpm would be for the Swede. Whatever, fact remains that I shot my rifle at 2320 fps and at 208,800 rpm. That's almost 200 fps faster then what you will strive for. Why not try to blow my doors off and go for the 2320 fps? Here's the last nail in your coffin and you hammered it: You said you would accept five 5 shot consecutive groups at around 2400 fps. Now you're trying to sneak out at that 2100 fps or so velocity. If you're so sure the Swede can do, hey, go for the gusto!!:Fire:

Joe

[Pat I.]

We're all waiting for you guys to show us................[/B]

Me too.

[Bret4207]

Okay, I'm not taking sides here since I don't know who is right, but it seems to me that the ego's on both sides are running things here. You guys have been calling each other names over this FOR YEARS!!! I don't know about how the rest of the guys feel, but to me you are ALL ridiculous! If there's an RPM threshold after which things become much more difficult then provide the info and leave it for the clan to work with. If there's a way to surpass those speeds in the Swede with cast then lay it out and let the clan play with it. This is just a ego trip or grudge match or something at this point and it's a real shame because the parties involved are bright guys.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Unknown to everyone, 45 2.1 and have been conversing by phone and email on me shooting this 6.5x54MS. Here's the interesting part for you. I was up to 33 grains of 4895. Damn I wish I could remember, the velocity was blistering for a 6.5x54MS even in jacketed. I told Bob I had to pound the bolt handle with the palm of my hand to get it open and the primers were very very flat. See what I mean about the technique now???? Looking in Lymon's cast book they used 4895 in both the 6.5 Jap and 6.5MS and I believe max in the Jap was 32 grains and the 6.5MS was 30 grains.

You still haven't told us the weight of that GB bullet fully dressed? Lyman's max loads (in the last manual they published jacketed loads in for the 6.5 MS) are as I posted previously. The current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook shows a max load for the 266455 at 31 gr 4895 and 2257 fps. However the max loads Lyman uses for rifle cast bullet loads is not based on max psi for the cartridge. Given your longer barrel and using AA 2495 your velocity seems quite possible if your bullet is in the 120 to 130 gr range. Your excessive signs of pressure must be related to your "secret". However since you won't tell how are we to know?

Odd since the Jap has a smaller case capacity. So what I'm saying is 33 grains loaded normal wise isn't dangerous. Technique wise it gets to be. Okay, now for the bad part. Those hot loads still shot 1 inch groups!!!! So if I dare shoot five 5 shot groups of those you're in trouble with your MexSwede because then the velocity will have to much higher then the 2100 fps or so my mentioned. By the way, that really sucks that you have to calculate right down to the last nitty gritty in adjusting the my velocity down to the what the rpm would be for the Swede. Whatever, fact remains that I shot my rifle at 2320 fps and at 208,800 rpm. That's almost 200 fps faster then what you will strive for.

Joe, I do believe it was you who calculated your load to RPM so as to gloat about it. 45 2.1s challenge was; "can you post 5 sequential groups shot at high RPM (at least as high as Joe posted . Nothing mentioned there about velocity, only thing mentioned is RPM and at your calculated 208,800 RPM for your load. For the swede to crank 208,800 RPM that is 2175 fps for the 6.5 Swede to equal it. So quit whining. You been told over and over again that the RPM threshold is not about velocity, it is about RPM. And no it is not a "limit" either. You have pushed it very nicely.

However if RPM isn't the point and only velocity is your point now regardless of the rifle then I'll switch to my 6.5-280. After all it only has one of those "cheap" E.R. Shaw barrels on it. It also is an old Spanish M98 and we all know how crappy they are;-)

Why not try to blow my doors off and go for the 2320 fps? Here's the last nail in your coffin and you hammered it: You said you would accept five 5 shot consecutive groups at around 2400 fps. Now you're trying to sneak out at that 2100 fps or so velocity.

No nail in my coffin. 45 2.1 named RPM as the game. Read his rules as he posted them and as i quoted them. If we are talking RPM, which is what I have been talking all along and you seem to have a lot of trouble comrehending that fact, then 2400 fos out of your 8" twist equiviates to 216,200 RPM. In the Swede tha RPM is reached at 2250 fps. So make up your mind; do you want velocity or do you want RPM? If velocity I shall use the 6.5-280 and if RPM then I shall use the 6.5 Swede.

If you're so sure the Swede can do, hey, go for the gusto!!

I never said the 6.5 Swede could do it. All I said was that I was going to try to match your consistency of accuracy (that BTW does not mean I will match the accuracy of your LW barreled M110 Savage with my milsurp barreled M98 Mauser - so in the future you should understand that and not misquote out of context like you are here)at the same RPM of 208,800. Now don't come back with your useual excuse that "larry is changing the rules" because I'm not. Go back and read what I said to you about working with the 6.5 Mex/Swede and also my what 45 2.1 said I should do.

One other point; since this thread was supposed to be about cast bullet accuracy from a milsurp 6.5 Swede perhaps it would be better if you got one and tried one before criticising everyone else who is actually shooting cast bullets in them. Please don't give us that lame excuse about a bullet doesn't know what barrel it is shot out of, we all know better including you.

How's about you and me starting our own thread on just shooting cast in 6.5 caliber? That way we can get around all of this 6.5 Swede vs whatever else. We can also ignore what anyone else says, even if they post on the thread, and just keep it between us?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Reply to 45 2.1 deleted

Bret is right, I'm out of here unless someone has more relevent to discuss regarding the 6.5 Swede.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I see Larry has thought of a way to slide out. More talk and no action...............just what Larry does.

[Char-Gar]

For the record... I concur with Bret.

[StarMetal]

Okay, I'm not taking sides here since I don't know who is right, but it seems to me that the ego's on both sides are running things here. You guys have been calling each other names over this FOR YEARS!!! I don't know about how the rest of the guys feel, but to me you are ALL ridiculous! If there's an RPM threshold after which things become much more difficult then provide the info and leave it for the clan to work with. If there's a way to surpass those speeds in the Swede with cast then lay it out and let the clan play with it. This is just a ego trip or grudge match or something at this point and it's a real shame because the parties involved are bright guys.

You don't have to guess at who's right.....look at the targets!!!! A picture is worth a thousand BS words. As of the moment Bret I have four rifles that will shoot accurate at HV and rpm. Know what Bret, had I had this 6.5MS when Dan from Mountain Moulds put up his 200,000 rpm contest I'd be casting with a new mould of my choice.

You and the rest of the "slow" gang have been happy for years shooting low velocity from the Swede...but yet many of you bashing anyone that say they can shoot it fast, instead of researching the way to do it. Of the four rifles I have that shoot HV with accuracy only one does it not using 45 2.1's technique and that is my 7mm08 Sako. I'll tell you the technique for that cartridge and that rifle: Jacketed dose of IMR 4350 powder and an inverted sized gas check loaded directly behind the bullet base.....not to be loaded so it drops below the neck/shoulder juncture.

I haven't called Larry one name in this whole 4 page thread. Larry told you all we're friends. You think he's lying? We're arguing as friends.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I apologize for not giving you the loaded weight of the bullet, that is sized, lubed, and gas checked. I'll do that and post it asap.

...and get your butt back in here...I won't have anyone to argue with.[smilie=1:

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Please forgive me for starting a 6.5x55 cast boolit thread... :oops:

I didn't realize how much animus it would dredge up :brokenima

[303Guy]

If I may just get back on topic briefly. [smilie=1: :mrgreen:

I mensioned earlier about the possibility of a long boolit warping in the mold (or soon after). Well, I found a very bent example! the base is visibly out of square, so bad is the distortion! I shall be swaging all my castings now (that puts in a hollow point and sets the two-diameter form).

Right. Sorry for the interuption - back to off-topic ... ! :mrgreen:

[Bret4207]

Larry, Bob and Joe- This solves nothing. As far as I'm concerned you all should either grow up and put up or never mention it again. No more "secrets", no more implications that we're all too stupid to handle it. Just lay it out and let the clan decide. This has been going on for years and it's just irritating and useless at this point.

Joe, I don't know who is right, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth. In fact, I don't know if there is a right and wrong here since we only get part of the story. Maybe it's one of those things that only works for some people. Why don't you guys all grow up and lay it out?

[Pat I.]

Please forgive me for starting a 6.5x55 cast boolit thread... :oops:

I didn't realize how much animus it would dredge up :brokenima

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I've been reading this stuff since 2005 and it's been the same master/pupil and deep dark secrets not fit for mere mortals to know nonsense since day one. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

The weighs just a hair shy of 136 grains...that is 135.8.

Bret, not putting words in your mouth, but I will now...You're calling my groups fake. If you're not calling the fakes then Bob and I are right. With the way you, Larry, and others load..Larry is right. Understand that?

Pat I...don't know what to say to you pal. Figure it out...not to drag him into this, but I bet Felix knows.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Please forgive me for starting a 6.5x55 cast boolit thread... :oops:

I didn't realize how much animus it would dredge up :brokenima

O.S.O.K.,

No no no....don't do that. Nothing to feel bad about. Whenever 6.5, velocity, and rpm come up this happens. Larry and I aren't upset with one another at all, to the contrary we get along quite well...ask him. Maybe he'll post that here.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Here's one for you. We've all seen the groups with the 6.5 Group buy bullet. Okay, I bought a Lyman 266469 mould earlier this year. The first mould would barely drop bullets over .264. I sent it back and three weeks later they sent a new one. With the 50/50 alloy it barely makes little over .265. Okay, with that in mine I can't get it to shoot out of my 6.5MS!!!! [smilie=b: That's with or without the technique. Tried many different powers, fillers, etc.. Tried harder alloy and softer...nyta. I'm basically just putting a gas check on them and lubing them in a .266 sizer die. I even ran them through a .265 sizer. Nothing. Shoots about like #3 buckshot. Got me puzzled. I'm about ready to sell this mould.

Joe

[Uncle R.]

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I've been reading this stuff since 2005 and it's been the same master/pupil and deep dark secrets not fit for mere mortals to know nonsense since day one. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

<GRIN!>
<
Pat's right. No need for apology - they LIKE hacking at each other. If they didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't do it.
<
They're like kids fighting with wooden swords - a good hit hurts a little but there's no serious harm done.
<
You kids play nice! Sure - it's all in fun until somebody gets their eye poked out...
<
Uncle R.

[Pat I.]

Pat I...don't know what to say to you pal. Figure it out...not to drag him into this, but I bet Felix knows.

Joe

I have absolutely no desire to figure it out but you should figure out that I notice you drag Felix into the discussion quite a bit when you address something to me. I don't know Felix from Adam so have no intention of saying anything bad about him if that's what you're hoping for.

By the way unlike Larry I don't consider you my "PAL" so in in the unlikely event we have any correspondence in the future either Pat I. or nothing at all will work for me.

[StarMetal]

I have absolutely no desire to figure it out but you should figure out that I notice you drag Felix into the discussion quite a bit when you address something to me. I don't know Felix from Adam so have no intention of saying anything bad about him if that's what you're hoping for.

By the way unlike Larry I don't consider you my "PAL" so in in the unlikely event we have any correspondence in the future either Pat I. or nothing at all will work for me.

You're way off course Pat. I refer to Felix because I hold him in high esteem in the intelligence department. The man is very smart.

If you don't like what's being said in this thread why don't you just not participate in it?

Joe

[Bret4207]

Larry,


Bret, not putting words in your mouth, but I will now...You're calling my groups fake. If you're not calling the fakes then Bob and I are right. With the way you, Larry, and others load..Larry is right. Understand that?


Joe

Joe, at no time did I say your groups were fake. Never. I said your groups were not fired from a Swede with a factory barrel. Different action, barrel, cartridge and darn sure not with the Cruise Missle. You shot decent groups but where are the "ragged one hole groups"? Are there smaller groups than you show that you got fired from a Swede in 6.5x55? That's what this discussion has been about for that last, what, 10 years or so? Should I throw my 98 Mauser 6.5x55 with it's 1-9 twist in the mix? That's not too far from your 1-8 which isn't too far from the Swedes 1-7.5 or whatever it is. How about my 6.5 Roberts in the Arisaka? Yeah, I have to size .270 boolits down to make it shot but it's almost sorta kinda the same. Right?

I'll tell you guys right now I can't break 1750 or so in my Swede with the things I've tried so far. If you can do it and get groups that are witnessed and worth bragging on then you're doing better then I am. What puzzles me, and probably anyone else reading this, is why you and your little posse get such a thrill out of keeping whatever info you have to yourselves. I will point out right now that you and Bob are the ONLY people I;m aware of on this board playing this game. Everyone else is into the free sharing of whatever information we can. Like I said, grow up, put up or just drop it.

[StarMetal]

Joe, at no time did I say your groups were fake. Never. I said your groups were not fired from a Swede with a factory barrel. Different action, barrel, cartridge and darn sure not with the Cruise Missle. You shot decent groups but where are the "ragged one hole groups"? Are there smaller groups than you show that you got fired from a Swede in 6.5x55? That's what this discussion has been about for that last, what, 10 years or so? Should I throw my 98 Mauser 6.5x55 with it's 1-9 twist in the mix? That's not too far from your 1-8 which isn't too far from the Swedes 1-7.5 or whatever it is. How about my 6.5 Roberts in the Arisaka? Yeah, I have to size .270 boolits down to make it shot but it's almost sorta kinda the same. Right?

I'll tell you guys right now I can't break 1750 or so in my Swede with the things I've tried so far. If you can do it and get groups that are witnessed and worth bragging on then you're doing better then I am. What puzzles me, and probably anyone else reading this, is why you and your little posse get such a thrill out of keeping whatever info you have to yourselves. I will point out right now that you and Bob are the ONLY people I;m aware of on this board playing this game. Everyone else is into the free sharing of whatever information we can. Like I said, grow up, put up or just drop it.

Bret,

Please do give your 6.5 98 with a 9 twist a try. Should be little easier to find that special load with that slower twist.

I'm working on getting one of two rifle...a 6.5 Jap or the M38 Swede.

Bret I don't use the technique to get the small HV groups out of my 6.5 Grendel. I just use 4198 powder with a tuff of Dacron. Ditto the 7.62x39..4895 and a tuff of Dacron. Of course the 7.62 isn't going to break any rpm records with the 155 grain bullet and the 10 twist. I already gave the formula for my 7mm-08. By the way the 7.62x39 AR15 shot a 3/8 inch ragged hole, but I won't post the target because it was a sighting in target so there's a bunch of other holes getting the scope adjustment and I'm not putting up with the crap of having to hear about it....but believe me...it shoots. Lee may make some crappy aluminum moulds, but boy a lot of them really shoot. Did you notice the post here about I can't get my Lyman 140 gr bullet to shoot?

Joe

[onceabull]

Pat I; shouldn't complain about him calling you "pal"..after all, just back in Feb./09,it was d..b..., d...b...., c...s......r,& f....t...!! Onceabull

[StarMetal]

Pat I; shouldn't complain about him calling you "pal"..after all, just back in Feb./09,it was d..b..., d...b...., c...s......r,& f....t...!! Onceabull

Hey onceabull,

Glad you're still around. I thought you had died. See you're still stirring up trouble....or trying to. Must tear you up I'm back on the forum. [smilie=p:

Joe

[Bret4207]

Bret,

Please do give your 6.5 98 with a 9 twist a try. Should be little easier to find that special load with that slower twist.

I'm working on getting one of two rifle...a 6.5 Jap or the M38 Swede.

Bret I don't use the technique to get the small HV groups out of my 6.5 Grendel. I just use 4198 powder with a tuff of Dacron. Ditto the 7.62x39..4895 and a tuff of Dacron. Of course the 7.62 isn't going to break any rpm records with the 155 grain bullet and the 10 twist. I already gave the formula for my 7mm-08. By the way the 7.62x39 AR15 shot a 3/8 inch ragged hole, but I won't post the target because it was a sighting in target so there's a bunch of other holes getting the scope adjustment and I'm not putting up with the crap of having to hear about it....but believe me...it shoots. Lee may make some crappy aluminum moulds, but boy a lot of them really shoot. Did you notice the post here about I can't get my Lyman 140 gr bullet to shoot?

Joe

Same ol', same ol'. Dodge the question, obfuscate, relocate, drift into another area. This is just a waste of time.

[StarMetal]

Same ol', same ol'. Dodge the question, obfuscate, relocate, drift into another area. This is just a waste of time.

Get the answer from Bob, quit pestering me about it please.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

:coffeecom

[runfiverun]

o.s.o.k.
look to my post about the answer there is lots of info in this thread just as there was in the rpm thread, that was up for months.
you just have to wade a bit, forget a straight answer.
I gave up on it long ago and went searching for the answers myself..
bob i think pat is a pretty dang good guy, so you shouldd make life not so bad from your end.
i'll stick to what i posted [it works just fine] and is easy enough to do [just work the hours you wasted here readin the issues] and get the right equipment.

[bruce drake]

Regarding the difference in max loads between the 6.5 MS and the 6.5 JAP. The T38 Arisaka is a stronger action than the original Mannlicher-Schoneur(SP) split bridge action. That would be a big reason why powder companies load the 6.5 MS to a lower capacity in order to keep tyhe pressure lower.

Joe - If you are having a problem with the 266469 mold you've got several options: either beagle it or lap the mold out or just change your alloy mix to cast to your desired diameter. Sounds like you've got a casting issue to work on since you've "solved" the Swede issue.

Bruce

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Here's one for you. We've all seen the groups with the 6.5 Group buy bullet. Okay, I bought a Lyman 266469 mould earlier this year. The first mould would barely drop bullets over .264. I sent it back and three weeks later they sent a new one. With the 50/50 alloy it barely makes little over .265. Okay, with that in mine I can't get it to shoot out of my 6.5MS!!!! [smilie=b: That's with or without the technique. Tried many different powers, fillers, etc.. Tried harder alloy and softer...nyta. I'm basically just putting a gas check on them and lubing them in a .266 sizer die. I even ran them through a .265 sizer. Nothing. Shoots about like #3 buckshot. Got me puzzled. I'm about ready to sell this mould.

Ok, here's my take on 266469 having had one in the past that cast very good bullets at .266 with several alloys; an old WW alloy that was basically similar to #2 alloy, linotype and WWs + 2% tin. I know you won't want to hear my answer because it is another example that fully supports the RPM threshold theory but I'll tell you anyways. The long nose of the 266469 is not even a bore rider, it just sits out there totally unsuported.

I tried 266469 and 266673 every which way from sunday many years ago in my very nice shooting M96 (I used to shoot moa jacketed and cast bullet groups with it when my eyes were good using the issue iron milsurp sights). Regardless of what did I could not get them to shoot consistantly under 2 moa above 1700 or so fps. Above 1700+ fps the groups radically opened to 4-6 moa. It was during this testing that I also had access to a very nice bullet catcher at a crime lab. At 1700+ fps the recovered bullets all showed rifling marks on on side of the bullet nose. The recovered bullets all had noses that had bent to the side!! Closer examination under the comparison microscope revealed the scraping and first lube groove on the side of the rifling marks had also partially collapsed. This was with a case full of a slow burining powder that just gave 1700+ fps so I could not use a slower powder and maintain that velocity. When these bullets were shot at 2000 fps there did not seem to be any increase in deformation. It appears the bullets simple bent and set back until they were supported by the barrel.

What this means is that simply the unsupported nose, particularly with 266469, bent, setback or sloughed to one side during accelleration. It occured even with the hard linotype cast bullets only not to the degree as with softer alloys. Thus as the velocity (accelleration) increased the bullet became imbalanced and the RPM took it's toll during flight. Even though the set back seemed the same at 1700 and 2000+ fps the accuracy was much worse at 2000+ fps. This is simply because there were more RPM and a higher centrafugal force at 2000 fps than at 1700 fps.

That's my take on it anyways. It is why I sold all my 6.5 moulds except the 266466, that Lovern with as little nose as possible. Once I switched to that mould I was able to consitently shoot under 2" at high velocity 1800 -2000 fps depending on whether I was using the M38 or the M96. I was able to shoot moa or better with that bullet under 1500 fps. That experience along with numerous designs of cast bullets in other calibers has led me to the design of cast bullet that I believe it takes to push the RPM threshold. To push that threshold requires a cast bullet that is as fully supported as possible in the case neck, throat and leade. It should not have much of a nose and should have as shallow as posible multiple lube grooves, i.e. pretty much a design like the Lovern 266466 and the 311455 and the GB bullets 45 2.1 sent you. You have proven I was correct with that design the same as I have proven it with a couple other bullets and Bass has proven it with his LBT bullet. This thread may still have merit if we can keep it germain to the topic.

Thanks for giving the weight of that cast bullets, I was right in my guestimate.

BTW; While I agree with Bret that we should not get into name calling etc. I do not believe any of that has happened in this thread. The bantering with you to get straight answers, and especially with 45 2.1 gets tiresome which is why I deleted my last resonse to him. However, if Bret is tired of reading our posts he can quit reading them but it appears he also is tired of the bantering and non specific answers. That seems to be the biggest problem here in my opinion. I will say i do not agree with the "secret" information because it is "dangerous" BS. I do also agree with numerous others here that it is too bad this thread was hijacked away from the 6.5 Swede. I do disagree with you Joe that your success with with your 6.5 MS is very good and may point the way to success with the 6.5 Swede. However, it is not a Swede and I have tried several times to steer this thread back to the Swede or you and I to another thread to no avail. That is too bad because had this thread remained germain to the 6.5 Swede in milsurp form we may have gotten somewhere with that cartridge/rifle of which a lot more members are interested in than they are with your 6.5 MS. That's all I will say on this subject.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I've tried that bullet we're discussing at various velocities. Always the same result...bad. I now have a water tank I can shoot into. Perhaps I'll load up a round that's around 17-1800 fps and shoot into the water. I've done this with the 6.5 Grendel using that 140 grain Saeco and all it did to it was very slightly flattened the pointy nose on it. Maybe I can collect a good intact bullet to examine. You are correct about the nose just sets there. I've made that discovery too. It's an awfully long nose too. I've been told this bullet can be very accurate. I've shot it super hard, soft, and inbetween. Now I think one cavity of my two cavity mould may throw fatter bullets because some of them mic .266. I keep them separated and shoot both for comparison and see no difference. Like I said my groove is .2639 so I feel even a .265 to be sufficient, but the .266 ones should definitely be good....they aren't. I can only think of one more test that you gave me thought reading your post. Take some of the bullets and gently chuck them in my lathe and trim that damn big nose back some to a flat nose. That will take a great amount of that unsupported nose weight away. I'll do and report on it. I hate to give up on this mould.

Larry I don't care what the naysayers say. I more or less ignore them, but I will defend myself to lewd attacks such as onceabull does trying to lure me into a fight on here....which isn't going to happen. So we won't get into this any further and yes neither you or I have resorted to name calling and I refuse to do that. I think you know that you and I have reached a comfortable plateau.

The Swede isn't an alien caliber. Many of the tricks used on lots of other calibers can be applied to it. So I see no reason to start a new thread. What do the two have in common? Case size is very close and so is capacity, bullets identical (talking cast here not the original design bullets, by the way the original 6.5MS had a 7.5 twist too like the Swede). So lots can apply. The differences are the barrels of course and the vehicle the barrel is attached to (in my case, not the original 6.5MS).

Joe

[45 2.1]

<GRIN!>
<
Pat's right. No need for apology - they LIKE hacking at each other. If they didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't do it. Your correct.......
<
They're like kids fighting with wooden swords - a good hit hurts a little but there's no serious harm done. Thats what we're reduced to in exchanges of words on this forum. Nothing gets settled, now does it.
<
You kids play nice! Sure - it's all in fun until somebody gets their eye poked out... Ya know, when we were all kids the world was a simpler place. We all played cowboys and indians, had snowball fights and played war etc. We all grew up whole and decent people. Look at society now and see what is being produced. Things have really changed, and not for the better it seems. Any of you like what you see? The way things are headed and all the security around you?
<
Uncle R.

You guys want it all handed to you, just like the unruly spoiled children out there today (whether they be 50 or 2). Get off you comfy seat and do some work, maybe you'll get something from it. Everything you need has already been posted at some time, it's up to you to figure it out. Can't figure it out, then ask questions.................... I can't make you see what is in front of you, you have to realize some things for yourself.

[45 2.1]

Larry-
I just read your synopsis of your past efforts with the 6.5mm. Maybe what you think is going on actually is something else from totally different reasons. If you can get a handle on that, then maybe there is hope for you. If you continue with your present course of action, I see your efforts wasted.

[Bret4207]

You guys want it all handed to you, just like the unruly spoiled children out there today (whether they be 50 or 2). Get off you comfy seat and do some work, maybe you'll get something from it. Everything you need has already been posted at some time, it's up to you to figure it out. Can't figure it out, then ask questions.................... I can't make you see what is in front of you, you have to realize some things for yourself.


Bob, with all due respect, isn't helping each other out what this place is all about? If we follow your line of reasoning on this then no information would be shared here, or we'd make cryptic remarks like, "...when you find out about proper diameter/alloy/lube/pressure, you'll be on the road to enlightenment...". That says nothing. People HAVE asked questions. People have tried various things and many have done a great deal of work on this particular rifle/cartridge combo and still find themselves stuck at 17-1800 FPS. IMO the "unruly spoiled child" is the guy who turns every post into an insulting tirade of, "Ha ha, I know a secret and you don't cause you're stoopit". And yet you can't understand why folks get po'd at you when you look down your nose at us. If you can truly take a Swede and get bragging size groups at something north of 2K that's fantastic! Good on you! Show us the witnessed groups. Share the info. Why turn it into a "Sorcerers Apprentice" thing? And if you're intent on NOT sharing the info, then why toss it up in our faces? Makes no sense to me.

[Bret4207]

Get the answer from Bob, quit pestering me about it please.

Joe

I'm not pestering you Joe. You brought me into this. All I'm saying is I don't understand the concept of the "I've got a secret you're too stupid to figure out" tone that you guys have taken. This place has always been about the free exchange of ideas, opinions and information. Maybe I'm missing something completely. I'm no rocket scientist, but telling everyone you've got the answer to high speed cast in the 6.5x55 in the Swede because you can do it in a 6.5 Grendel out of an AR or 6.5MS out of a L-W barreled Savage but you've never done it in a Swede kind of makes the "I've got a secret..." story a bit lame. If you can do it, great! My hat is off to you guys. You're 3 or 10 or 30 steps ahead of me and I'll gladly give you a round of applause. But this whole dodging the question about "HOW" just mystify's me.

Look, at least Larry has laid out his reasoning. I admit, he doesn't make sense or seems to contradict himself in some of his explanations, but that could just be because he's not a professional writer. Lord knows I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words too. But at least he's laying it out there for others to think about and try and observe. Some folks have come to another conclusion, that's okay. Some folks think he's right and that's okay too. Lets give the guy credit for at least trying to get his theory across. Why you guys won't go that far baffles me.

No hard feelings Joe, I'm just seeing the same story repeated time after time.

[45 2.1]

Bob, with all due respect, isn't helping each other out what this place is all about? If we follow your line of reasoning on this then no information would be shared here, or we'd make cryptic remarks like, "...when you find out about proper diameter/alloy/lube/pressure, you'll be on the road to enlightenment...". That says nothing. People HAVE asked questions. People have tried various things and many have done a great deal of work on this particular rifle/cartridge combo and still find themselves stuck at 17-1800 FPS. So your saying that what they do hasn't worked. Maybe there is another way, one which is a quite different way. Maybe their understanding of what goes on is WRONG. They have to realize its wrong BEFORE they can make progress. DO YOU UNDERSTAND this simple fact. IMO the "unruly spoiled child" is the guy who turns every post into an insulting tirade of, "Ha ha, I know a secret and you don't cause you're stoopit". Well, if you take it that way, then maybe you need to work on an attitude adjustment for yourself. People don't change what the do or act like until they want to change. You should know that. And yet you can't understand why folks get po'd at you when you look down your nose at us. You still can't read people too well even after all the time you spent on the job. I don't look down my nose at you or others, I just wonder when they or you will comprehend that there are other ways of doing everything. A hundred people will basically have a hundred different ways of doing basically the same thing, with entirely different results. If theirs doesn't work, they keep doing the same thing because somebody else uses this and that while getting the same abysmal results also. You think a light might go on there someplace, Huh. If you can truly take a Swede and get bragging size groups at something north of 2K that's fantastic! Good on you! Show us the witnessed groups. Share the info. Joe just showed you, or didn't you pay any attention, again for the umpteenth time. Open your eyes Brett...........Why turn it into a "Sorcerers Apprentice" thing? And if you're intent on NOT sharing the info I and others have several times. You either didn't pay attention or were to comfortable at your 1600 fps level to care., then why toss it up in our faces? Makes no sense to me. Of course it doesn't make sense, you still don't understand.

It is extremely frustrating to try to get someone to see something they have never realized before. Joe took some time to understand it also, so your not alone.

[StarMetal]

The alloy is 50/50 wheelweights/lead either water droppe, oven tempered, or simply left alone for a very long time to harden. The powders you have to play with for your particular bullet, caliber, and chamber. There is no "oh the powder is IMR 4895 and exactly 28.999999999999 grains". It doesn't work like that. I will also tell you that you will think "hmmm I need to launch this bullet more gentle, hmm slow powder". That doesn't work alone either. The bullet does need to be launched correctly. In other words protected, protected both from the heat of the powder and launch (push, bang, shove, acceleration..whatever you want to call it). Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Light go on there? When Bob says it's all been posted before he's telling the truth. It really has. Many, including myself, either didn't see it or didn't know how to use it (the later was me). When I said I used an inverted second gas check in my HV 7mm-08 what did it do? In all reality I could go back and redo the 7mm-08 using the technique we're talking about. I lucked into protecting the bullet with the second gas check. The launch I stumbled into with using slow IMR 4350.

You know, when someone has a problem, for instance in another post someone has a live round stuck in the chamber of a rifle and wants to know how to get it out safely. Dozens of people gave their suggestions. Why aren't we seeing that here? Don't say you're all frustrated at me and Bob. He is right in a way that you wanted it handed to you. You want to know how Bob taught me. Scenario: Bob what alloy do I use? Bob what size do I size too? Bob what powder do I use? Bob do I do this or do that? Bob didn't straight out tell me. Bob became a teacher and I became a student in a class. I gave Bob the answers after he gave me a lesson that stimulated me to think. Bob didn't want me to use hand me down information, he wanted me know why it worked and how. He made me think and give him answers. Of course lots of the answers were wrong. Am I putting Bob on a pedestal? NO Bob ####es me off alot, ask him. Tell them Bob. There's things that Bob told me he does and I flat out told him I don't believe it. Here's an example: Had a problem loading for a M1 carbine. Problem was I'd work up my powder load to fully cycle the action. Fine..put the rifle away...come back couple weeks later..take the perfected loads and the rifle won't fully cycle anymore. Hmmmm. Was talking to Bob about it and he tells me what it is. I say "You're full of poop". Well I tried what he said and boy the thing starts working really well and has ever since. I had to swallow me ego and say "Bob, you were right...aaah aaaah, gulp, aahh...thanks". Don't you think he ####es me off when I've been reloading for years and teaches me something? I've now gotten use to it more. Bob, BaBore, and myself agitated the hell out of one another.

I gave you the answer in this post somewhere...did you all see it?

Joe

[45 2.1]

Bob ####es me off alot, ask him. Tell them Bob.
Happens both ways quite a bit..................

"Bob, you were right...aaah aaaah, gulp, aahh...thanks".
The part in blue is more like what happens.........

Don't you think he ####es me off when I've been reloading for years and teaches me something? I've now gotten use to it more. Bob, BaBore, and myself agitated the hell out of one another.
You think i'm rough on Larry, you have no idea what happens with these two..................:bigsmyl2:

[felix]

Don't forget the writings of 44man, BA, et.al. They have also contributed significantly to the knowledge base. Yes, it all boils down to keeping the acceleration curve constant and SMOOTH as silk for the application, and how you do that is the name of the game. Nine times out of ten the "load" needs to generate a high AVERAGE pressure while keeping the instantaneous pressure as low as possible when the boolit is at the muzzle. If that cannot be done, a boolit ablator (anti-ablation) is absolutely required.

These concepts should be much more easily adsorbed when compared to explaining one's religion and/or politics. However, to become a true believer/understander in anything, the person has to realize that his quandary is at rock bottom and he NEEDS help. Most of us do not need, but just want, and that is normal until that rock bottom state on an individual scale is met. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
Bob, with all due respect, isn't helping each other out what this place is all about? If we follow your line of reasoning on this then no information would be shared here, or we'd make cryptic remarks like, "...when you find out about proper diameter/alloy/lube/pressure, you'll be on the road to enlightenment...". That says nothing. People HAVE asked questions. People have tried various things and many have done a great deal of work on this particular rifle/cartridge combo and still find themselves stuck at 17-1800 FPS. So your saying that what they do hasn't worked. Maybe there is another way, one which is a quite different way. Maybe their understanding of what goes on is WRONG. They have to realize its wrong BEFORE they can make progress. DO YOU UNDERSTAND this simple fact. Bob, I understand I'm missing something or not seeing whatever it is you're talking about. Beyond that I admit you lost me. I've been saying that, I don't know how to put it plainer. IMO the "unruly spoiled child" is the guy who turns every post into an insulting tirade of, "Ha ha, I know a secret and you don't cause you're stoopit". Well, if you take it that way, then maybe you need to work on an attitude adjustment for yourself. People don't change what the do or act like until they want to change. You should know that. We've been through that before Bob. I'm not a butt kisser anyomre than you are and neither of us is likely to start now. And yet you can't understand why folks get po'd at you when you look down your nose at us. You still can't read people too well even after all the time you spent on the job. I don't look down my nose at you or others, I just wonder when they or you will comprehend that there are other ways of doing everything. A hundred people will basically have a hundred different ways of doing basically the same thing, with entirely different results. If theirs doesn't work, they keep doing the same thing because somebody else uses this and that while getting the same abysmal results also. You think a light might go on there someplace, Huh. There has to be some wiring for the light to go on man, that's what missing here, you don't give a way for us to get what you're talking about without kowtowing to you and that ain;t happening. We're just trying the honest normal approach.If you can truly take a Swede and get bragging size groups at something north of 2K that's fantastic! Good on you! Show us the witnessed groups. Share the info. Joe just showed you, or didn't you pay any attention, again for the umpteenth time. Open your eyes Brett...........Why turn it into a "Sorcerers Apprentice" thing? And if you're intent on NOT sharing the info I and others have several times. You either didn't pay attention or were to comfortable at your 1600 fps level to care., then why toss it up in our faces? Makes no sense to me.
Of course it doesn't make sense, you still don't understand.

It is extremely frustrating to try to get someone to see something they have never realized before. Joe took some time to understand it also, so your not alone.

I make no claims to be a genius. Please understand it's just as frustrating to me to see you dangle a carrot when I don't even know what a carrot is. I don;t think anyone is trying to be miserable about this, but there's a disconnect here that both parties seem unable to bridge.

[Bret4207]

Don't forget the writings of 44man, BA, et.al. They have also contributed significantly to the knowledge base. Yes, it all boils down to keeping the acceleration curve constant and SMOOTH as silk for the application, and how you do that is the name of the game. Nine times out of ten the "load" needs to generate a high AVERAGE pressure while keeping the instantaneous pressure as low as possible when the boolit is at the muzzle. If that cannot be done, boolit ablation is absolutely required.

These concepts should much more easily adsorbed when compared to explaining one's religion and/or politics. However, to become a true believer/understander in anything, the person has to realize that his quandary is at rock bottom and he NEEDS help. Most of us do not need, but just want, and that is normal until that rock bottom state on an individual scale is met. ... felix

Clear as mud Felix. Why is "ablation" required? Ablation means removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes

I give up. I'm going to start buying bevel base hard cast bullets and complain about leading......

[StarMetal]

Don't forget the writings of 44man, BA, et.al. They have also contributed significantly to the knowledge base. Yes, it all boils down to keeping the acceleration curve constant and SMOOTH as silk for the application, and how you do that is the name of the game. Nine times out of ten the "load" needs to generate a high AVERAGE pressure while keeping the instantaneous pressure as low as possible when the boolit is at the muzzle. If that cannot be done, boolit ablation is absolutely required.

These concepts should much more easily adsorbed when compared to explaining one's religion and/or politics. However, to become a true believer/understander in anything, the person has to realize that his quandary is at rock bottom and he NEEDS help. Most of us do not need, but just want, and that is normal until that rock bottom state on an individual scale is met. ... felix

BINGO! BINGO! BINGO! BINGO! My hero Felix comes throught. Thank you very much Felix.

See Bret, even Felix didn't "just" hand it to any of you.

Felix I'm not mocking you....I really believe you are truly very very intelligent.

Joe

[felix]

I fixed it, I think, Bret. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Clear as mud Felix. Why is "ablation" required? Ablation means removal of material from the surface of an object by vaporization, chipping, or other erosive processes

I give up. I'm going to start buying bevel base hard cast bullets and complain about leading......

Bret,

Learn to stay away from wikipedia, it's not a very good place for real accurate information.
1. Surgical excision or amputation of a body part or tissue.
2. The erosive processes by which a glacier is reduced.
3. Aerospace a. The dissipation of heat generated by atmospheric friction, especially in the atmospheric reentry of a spacecraft or missile, by means of a melting heat shield.
b. The reduction or removal of heat-protective surface material by aerodynamic friction, as from a heat shield.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Bret

"Bob, with all due respect, isn't helping each other out what this place is all about? If we follow your line of reasoning on this then no information would be shared here, or we'd make cryptic remarks like, "...when you find out about proper diameter/alloy/lube/pressure, you'll be on the road to enlightenment...". That says nothing. People HAVE asked questions. People have tried various things and many have done a great deal of work on this particular rifle/cartridge combo and still find themselves stuck at 17-1800 FPS. IMO the "unruly spoiled child" is the guy who turns every post into an insulting tirade of, "Ha ha, I know a secret and you don't cause you're stoopit". And yet you can't understand why folks get po'd at you when you look down your nose at us. If you can truly take a Swede and get bragging size groups at something north of 2K that's fantastic! Good on you! Show us the witnessed groups. Share the info. Why turn it into a "Sorcerers Apprentice" thing? And if you're intent on NOT sharing the info, then why toss it up in our faces? Makes no sense to me."

I'm in agreement with you on this matter. I see from the latter posts from starmetal and 45 2.1 that we are still on a hunt for the "National Treasure"! I have reread starmetal's post several times and believe I've deciphered it. I will experiment with it in my next tests with the 6.5 Swede. If it works I will put it into plain English here for all to read "in the spirit of open exchange of information. Perhaps I do contradict myself to some. However I always know what I am talking about;-) Getting the point across is sometimes difficult, especially when you are just responding to a post and not taking time to write it out, edit for context, etc. Also I have learned a lot since I seriously began the tests of the RPM threshold. My observations of alloys to use, GCs and lubes for instance has changed. I also have refined and narrowed my concept of the design of the bullet to use for HV cast bullets. Thus my current statements of what occurs and what takes place do indeed contradict some of the statements I made when this all started a couple years (actually several years back) ago.

I have learned and refined the concept of the RPM threshold. That all came about from the thorough testing I have completed. The RPM threshold is indeed there and it is alive and well as all cast bullet shooters continually find out. It can be pushed as I have always said and a few chose to do the work necessary to push the RPM threshold.

I disagree with 45 2.1 that my techniques do not lead to success. These same techniques have led to success in several other cartridges. I have posted results of my successes at pushing the RPM threshold numerous times. 45 2.1 continues to ignore that success. Even the success with my "ill fitting" 311291 out of the '06 during the testing that Bass and I did. 45 2.1 does contradict himself quite often. Starmetal, in this thread, has contradicted 45 2.1 also. He states the secret to success is not cartridge or barrel specific but applies to all. Thus if my techniques work with the '06, .308W, 7x57 and 8x57 why won't they work with the 6.5?............yes I know,........it's a "secret"!

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Of course rpm affects bullets. It actually affects just about everything in the world from a spinning bullet, to a spinning flywheel, crankshaft, drill bit...anything that revolves..hey hey...here on earth, ok?

Joe

[carpetman]

I have some rpm thresholds for sale.

[45 2.1]

I have some rpm thresholds for sale.

OK Ray, your the official RPM threshold salesman. Your biggest customer is going to be Larry Gibson. He's gonna need a bunch before he gets done.:kidding::kidding::kidding:

[StarMetal]

Ray,

Those related to the thresholds on doors?:kidding:

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Ray,

Those related to the thresholds on doors?:kidding:

Joe

Appears you've finally figured out what the meaning "threshold" is.


Carpetman

I see we're back to the sublime......You'll go hungry trying to sell those, everyone gets them free with cast bullets. Even Starmetal, 45 2.1, BaBore and swheeler get them free :-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I think I've found out why I haven't gotten that 266469 to shoot. Soon as I shoot my corrected rounds I'll let you know if I was right or not. Problem today is it's been storming ALL day here in TN. This is one of the craziest weather patterns we've had this year so far for spring and summer. I'm fearing what winter might bring.

Stay tuned for what I find shooting these test loads.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

I remember a dozen years ago the bullet casters on this board were delighted to link up with others and freely shared information in the spirit of advancing the craft for all. Many myths and old wives tales were exploded and many folks, like me, benefited from the knowledge gained. Sucesses and failures were freely shared and everybody moved forward.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have turned in some sort of Boolit Yoda or Zen Masters. The old spirit of helping each other along the learning curve seems to have gone by by and has been replaced by a stingy jealous, possessive hide the ball mentality. Seems like they want folks to "sit up and beg" like dogs for crumbs of their wisdom.

Personaly I really don't give a rats a$$ about breaking the rpm barrier. I am just a retired old fun who enjoys pushing lead down a rifle barrel into as small a group as possible. I am concerned about what has happened to this place so many of us used to call home on the internet. Pity!

[StarMetal]

I remember a dozen years ago the bullet casters on this board were delighted to link up with others and freely shared information in the spirit of advancing the craft for all. Many myths and old wives tales were exploded and many folks, like me, benefited from the knowledge gained. Sucesses and failures were freely shared and everybody moved forward.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have turned in some sort of Boolit Yoda or Zen Masters. The old spirit of helping each other along the learning curve seems to have gone by by and has been replaced by a stingy jealous, possessive hide the ball mentality. Seems like they want folks to "sit up and beg" like dogs for crumbs of their wisdom.

Personaly I really don't give a rats a$$ about breaking the rpm barrier. I am just a retired old fun who enjoys pushing lead down a rifle barrel into as small a group as possible. I am concerned about what has happened to this place so many of us used to call home on the internet. Pity!

Apparently you do or you wouldn't be posting what you did. The story about how folks use to be is just that, a story. For your information it was posted here what to do....Larry Gibson finally got it and is going to use it. Felix got it (actually had it all along).

Nothing is happening to the forum. There is still tons of help here. Let me ask you a question, would you help someone hurt themselves? I know the answer to that and know you would not. Let's try another analogy. Would you highly recommend, promote, and tell how to others how to load duplex smokeless powder loads to others. Let me cover my bases here.....yeah, I know this wasn't a thread on duplex loads.

Do you want to know about my smokeless loads in muzzleloader? You want me to post those? Watch someone ask about them if you don't believe they are foolishly curious. Want to know how to make a Theodore Kaczynki Red Dot nail special. Charger, don't fall for Larry's down grading the danger of the technique.

Joe

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski)

[Char-Gar]

Joe/Starmetal.... I calls em the way I sees em! Deal with it!

[Jim]

I remember a dozen years ago the bullet casters on this board were delighted to link up with others and freely shared information in the spirit of advancing the craft for all. Many myths and old wives tales were exploded and many folks, like me, benefited from the knowledge gained. Sucesses and failures were freely shared and everybody moved forward.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have turned in some sort of Boolit Yoda or Zen Masters. The old spirit of helping each other along the learning curve seems to have gone by by and has been replaced by a stingy jealous, possessive hide the ball mentality. Seems like they want folks to "sit up and beg" like dogs for crumbs of their wisdom.

Personaly I really don't give a rats a$$ about breaking the rpm barrier. I am just a retired old fun who enjoys pushing lead down a rifle barrel into as small a group as possible. I am concerned about what has happened to this place so many of us used to call home on the internet. Pity!

Charger, What kind of beer do you drink? I'll have a 12 pack in the basement gunshop ice box when you get here.

[StarMetal]

Joe/Starmetal.... I calls em the way I sees em! Deal with it!

Sounds like you need to deal with it. What's that you say "I calls em the way I sees em"? Stressed out huh?

No wonder why this country is in such a political division. Here we have Jim wanting to buy you case of beer for your views on this topic. We can't even stick together as gun owners.

45nut...Ken you can go ahead and close this thread, it's deteriorated just when Larry and I are discussing things reasonably. Lots of hatred among some members of Bob and I.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Bret,

Learn to stay away from wikipedia, it's not a very good place for real accurate information.
1. Surgical excision or amputation of a body part or tissue.
2. The erosive processes by which a glacier is reduced.
3. Aerospace a. The dissipation of heat generated by atmospheric friction, especially in the atmospheric reentry of a spacecraft or missile, by means of a melting heat shield.
b. The reduction or removal of heat-protective surface material by aerodynamic friction, as from a heat shield.

Joe

I hate Wikipedia. It just happened to be the first non-medical definition I found.

[StarMetal]

I hate Wikipedia. It just happened to be the first non-medical definition I found.

Yes it was first on the list when I looked it up also. Nothing to do with you Bret, just looked at the dictionary meanings and they actually had something useful. From the way I understand anyone can edit Wiki..reckon that's where the problem comes in. Felix is a pretty sharp cat!!!

Joe

[Bret4207]

Bret

"Bob, with all due respect, isn't helping each other out what this place is all about? If we follow your line of reasoning on this then no information would be shared here, or we'd make cryptic remarks like, "...when you find out about proper diameter/alloy/lube/pressure, you'll be on the road to enlightenment...". That says nothing. People HAVE asked questions. People have tried various things and many have done a great deal of work on this particular rifle/cartridge combo and still find themselves stuck at 17-1800 FPS. IMO the "unruly spoiled child" is the guy who turns every post into an insulting tirade of, "Ha ha, I know a secret and you don't cause you're stoopit". And yet you can't understand why folks get po'd at you when you look down your nose at us. If you can truly take a Swede and get bragging size groups at something north of 2K that's fantastic! Good on you! Show us the witnessed groups. Share the info. Why turn it into a "Sorcerers Apprentice" thing? And if you're intent on NOT sharing the info, then why toss it up in our faces? Makes no sense to me."

I'm in agreement with you on this matter. I see from the latter posts from starmetal and 45 2.1 that we are still on a hunt for the "National Treasure"! I have reread starmetal's post several times and believe I've deciphered it. I will experiment with it in my next tests with the 6.5 Swede. If it works I will put it into plain English here for all to read "in the spirit of open exchange of information. Perhaps I do contradict myself to some. However I always know what I am talking about;-) Getting the point across is sometimes difficult, especially when you are just responding to a post and not taking time to write it out, edit for context, etc. Also I have learned a lot since I seriously began the tests of the RPM threshold. My observations of alloys to use, GCs and lubes for instance has changed. I also have refined and narrowed my concept of the design of the bullet to use for HV cast bullets. Thus my current statements of what occurs and what takes place do indeed contradict some of the statements I made when this all started a couple years (actually several years back) ago.

I have learned and refined the concept of the RPM threshold. That all came about from the thorough testing I have completed. The RPM threshold is indeed there and it is alive and well as all cast bullet shooters continually find out. It can be pushed as I have always said and a few chose to do the work necessary to push the RPM threshold.

I disagree with 45 2.1 that my techniques do not lead to success. These same techniques have led to success in several other cartridges. I have posted results of my successes at pushing the RPM threshold numerous times. 45 2.1 continues to ignore that success. Even the success with my "ill fitting" 311291 out of the '06 during the testing that Bass and I did. 45 2.1 does contradict himself quite often. Starmetal, in this thread, has contradicted 45 2.1 also. He states the secret to success is not cartridge or barrel specific but applies to all. Thus if my techniques work with the '06, .308W, 7x57 and 8x57 why won't they work with the 6.5?............yes I know,........it's a "secret"!

Larry Gibson

Larry, don't get wound up over the "contradicting" thing. I've been reading and following what you believe for several years. As you said, things change. No biggie.

[Bret4207]

I remember a dozen years ago the bullet casters on this board were delighted to link up with others and freely shared information in the spirit of advancing the craft for all. Many myths and old wives tales were exploded and many folks, like me, benefited from the knowledge gained. Sucesses and failures were freely shared and everybody moved forward.

Somewhere along the way, some folks have turned in some sort of Boolit Yoda or Zen Masters. The old spirit of helping each other along the learning curve seems to have gone by by and has been replaced by a stingy jealous, possessive hide the ball mentality. Seems like they want folks to "sit up and beg" like dogs for crumbs of their wisdom.

Personaly I really don't give a rats a$$ about breaking the rpm barrier. I am just a retired old fun who enjoys pushing lead down a rifle barrel into as small a group as possible. I am concerned about what has happened to this place so many of us used to call home on the internet. Pity!

Chargar, mostly it's still that way. It's no story, it's what keeps this place going. This is just an aberration.

[madsenshooter]

You guys are making a lot of posts here a real drag to read, too much arguing dribble instead of useful stuff! Work something out elsewhere! Give him a phone call, send PMs back and forth, anything besides making a mountain of reading to wind up with nothing but bitchin that runs from one thread to another, I might as well hang out with the 30 year old girls at work. No I don't understand it, because once it starts, I quit reading the posts and go in search of interesting of posts. Out of this one!

[Bret4207]

Yes, it all boils down to keeping the acceleration curve constant and SMOOTH as silk for the application, and how you do that is the name of the game. Nine times out of ten the "load" needs to generate a high AVERAGE pressure while keeping the instantaneous pressure as low as possible when the boolit is at the muzzle. If that cannot be done, a boolit ablator (anti-ablation) is absolutely required.



Okay, to me it sounds like you want a powder that gives a nice gentle start with no obturation, develops it's pressure within the first 3/4-5/6ths or so of the barrel and is dropping in pressure as it exits. IOW, zero damage/change to the boolit as it travels from the case through the barrel. From what Joe hints at it seems he's using a buffer of some sort (anti-ablation) since that powder apparently doesn't exist or otherwise protecting the boolit. Obviously the first thing that springs to mind is paper patching, but that's too simple.

Looking back I see reference to a ductile, heat treated/quenched 50/50 alloy, LBT Blue lube, slow powders and a short Loverin style boolit that engraves and still reaches the neck shoulder junction or the Kurtz. The rest seems to do with controlling the pressure.

"There's a loading technique that if done incorrectly can be dangerous and it has to do with controlling the pressure of the powder burn. Yes there are ways to do that without physically making the case smaller or seating the bullet deeper and deeper. No not as simple as changing the amount of the powder charge either."

"It does make a difference how you launch a boolit. Clue: the heat isn't reaching the boolit the way they're doing it."

"velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping"

"The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure."

"As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe"

"
Bret I don't use the technique to get the small HV groups out of my 6.5 Grendel. I just use 4198 powder with a tuff of Dacron."

"I will also tell you that you will think "hmmm I need to launch this bullet more gentle, hmm slow powder". That doesn't work alone either. The bullet does need to be launched correctly. In other words protected, protected both from the heat of the powder and launch (push, bang, shove, acceleration..whatever you want to call it). Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Light go on there? "


Yeah, there's a light going on now. If you're doing what I think then I understand some of the hesitation.

[StarMetal]

Okay, to me it sounds like you want a powder that gives a nice gentle start with no obturation, develops it's pressure within the first 3/4-5/6ths or so of the barrel and is dropping in pressure as it exits. IOW, zero damage/change to the boolit as it travels from the case through the barrel. From what Joe hints at it seems he's using a buffer of some sort (anti-ablation) since that powder apparently doesn't exist or otherwise protecting the boolit. Obviously the first thing that springs to mind is paper patching, but that's too simple.

Looking back I see reference to a ductile, heat treated/quenched 50/50 alloy, LBT Blue lube, slow powders and a short Loverin style boolit that engraves and still reaches the neck shoulder junction or the Kurtz. The rest seems to do with controlling the pressure.

"There's a loading technique that if done incorrectly can be dangerous and it has to do with controlling the pressure of the powder burn. Yes there are ways to do that without physically making the case smaller or seating the bullet deeper and deeper. No not as simple as changing the amount of the powder charge either."

"It does make a difference how you launch a boolit. Clue: the heat isn't reaching the boolit the way they're doing it."

"velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping"

"The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure."

"As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe"

"
Bret I don't use the technique to get the small HV groups out of my 6.5 Grendel. I just use 4198 powder with a tuff of Dacron."

"I will also tell you that you will think "hmmm I need to launch this bullet more gentle, hmm slow powder". That doesn't work alone either. The bullet does need to be launched correctly. In other words protected, protected both from the heat of the powder and launch (push, bang, shove, acceleration..whatever you want to call it). Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Light go on there? "


Yeah, there's a light going on now. If you're doing what I think then I understand some of the hesitation.

Apology accepted...I've taken a lot of crap from a lot of people in this thread that contributed absolutely ZERO except to run their mouth for dislike of certain members on this forum. I'm not as bad as you think I am Bret.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Don't get all warm and fuzzy Joe. I didn't apologize. I have nothing to apologize for in this thread.

[StarMetal]

Don't get all warm and fuzzy Joe. I didn't apologize. I have nothing to apologize for in this thread.


I figured that too Bret. It's not in your nature.

Joe

[runfiverun]

brett you missed the protect the base of the boolit part.
that and the powder are the keys here.
i keep pressure behind the boolit as long as possible.
one of the things that has helped me oddly enough is to put a concave bend into the g/c's.
but only in my 358 win.

[Larry Gibson]

I "down graded the danger" of what "technique"?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, don't get wound up over the "contradicting" thing. I've been reading and following what you believe for several years. As you said, things change. No biggie.

Bret

I'm not "wound up" over it at all. I was just explaining, from my perspective, why I've changed some of my observations on a few things. They were cahanged based on a lot of testing. The changing of some things still does not change the basic premiss of the RPM threshold though. The changes were just with some of the "variables" that we think really matter that really don't. Always enjoyable to agree/disagree with you.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

I figured that too Bret. It's not in your nature.

Joe

In complete seriousness Joe, if I ever see a case where I've done you wrong I will fall all over myself apologizing. Anything between us in the past you brought on yourself, maybe not intentionally, but it was your doing none the less.

All I've asked for is a bit of openness and honest dealing in this subject without an attitude. I'm still not sure what you're doing but I have an idea and if I'm right then yes, it is dangerous to an extent. Some might use a stronger term, others will say it won't work at all. I don;t know if that means you should adopt the view you've taken since it's been discussed and played with for decades, but that's your call. Maybe I'm completely wrong and still don't get it. Either way I'm still wondering and all we've done is condense the information you guys seem willing to put out.

[Bret4207]

Bret

I'm not "wound up" over it at all. I was just explaining, from my perspective, why I've changed some of my observations on a few things. They were cahanged based on a lot of testing. The changing of some things still does not change the basic premiss of the RPM threshold though. The changes were just with some of the "variables" that we think really matter that really don't. Always enjoyable to agree/disagree with you.

Larry Gibson

Okay , I just didn't want you thinking I was dissing you about it.

[Bret4207]

brett you missed the protect the base of the boolit part.
that and the powder are the keys here.
i keep pressure behind the boolit as long as possible.
one of the things that has helped me oddly enough is to put a concave bend into the g/c's.
but only in my 358 win.

There's a lot of info to sort through and I may have missed a lot. Have you found success with the 6.5x55 in the Swede?

[felix]

Bret, I have no idea how to actually make the Swede shoot. I don't have one, nor any gun with a fast twist because of the associated work required to make them shoot like slow twist guns without the work. Making 22's shoot well is all the challenge I can tolerate. For example, I have no interest in paper patching whatsoever, or making any kind of boolit a condom. This approach must be taken, however, to make fast twist guns shoot. Military chambers make it even more difficult. If these guys can make that thing stand on its ear, I too would like to know what they did in particular. Hopefully, Bob and Joe will tell us what they did, and additionally what the loads were verbatim (and they should be entirely different due to independent thought). ... felix

[runfiverun]

i like felix took the other route.
i am just not interested in chasing the swede down.
i got enough problems with 10 twist 30 cals and 9 twist 7 mm's.
i do notice enough difference between a 9 and 9-1/2 twist 7x5 and a 10 twist 7x57. that it just isn't worth the hassle right now.
the twist and caliber is not whats important it's the technique,and the push.
there are some rifles in my battery that only see flgc's because i am just not gonna bother
and secondly they like flgc's just fine. and others that have never seen a flgc ever. those were chosen for what they were and could do with cast,or had a bbl put on especially for cast.

[StarMetal]

i like felix took the other route.
i am just not interested in chasing the swede down.
i got enough problems with 10 twist 30 cals and 9 twist 7 mm's.
i do notice enough difference between a 9 and 9-1/2 twist 7x5 and a 10 twist 7x57. that it just isn't worth the hassle right now.
the twist and caliber is not whats important it's the technique,and the push.
there are some rifles in my battery that only see flgc's because i am just not gonna bother
and secondly they like flgc's just fine. and others that have never seen a flgc ever. those were chosen for what they were and could do with cast,or had a bbl put on especially for cast.

I had five 7mm's. Sako 7mm Mag, Brazilian 1908, Winchester Featherweight Model 70, and Interarms Mark X Mannlicher, Sako 7mm-08. The four modern rifles were were scoped and everyone of them shot below 1 inch groups with the Lyman 150 grain Loverin. The 7mm-08 shot the Lee 135 to 2640 fps with accuracy with the first load right off the bat. The Model 70 Winchester required new bedding and a free float job. The Mark X shot as is. The 7 Mag shot bigger groups, but not much bigger. Was very usable. I was kind of worried since it had the biggest case about how it would shoot. All of these, except the 7mm-08, were before I was on the forum. So I shot these using normal cast loads. I really honestly didn't find the 7mm's anymore difficult then the 30 calibers.

Remember now, if you have followed me on the forum, I started rifle cast shooting with rifle powders....not pistol/shotgun powders.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Bret, I have no idea how to actually make the Swede shoot. I don't have one, nor any gun with a fast twist because of the associated work required to make them shoot like slow twist guns without the work. Making 22's shoot well is all the challenge I can tolerate. For example, I have no interest in paper patching whatsoever, or making any kind of boolit a condom. This approach must be taken, however, to make fast twist guns shoot. Military chambers make it even more difficult. If these guys can make that thing stand on its ear, I too would like to know what they did in particular. Hopefully, Bob and Joe will tell us what they did, and additionally what the loads were verbatim (and they should be entirely different due to independent thought). ... felix

It's mostly a mental exercise for me at this point Felix. I get 45 minutes in the morning, a few minutes at lunchtime and after supper's done and I get the rest of the family taken care of for myself. The rest of the time I'm going on someones elses projects, so I don't have time right now to put any of this in play. I guess it's just thirsting for knowledge and understanding.

[Pat I.]

I guess it's just thirsting for knowledge and understanding.

After ANOTHER 11 pages with no straight answer you must be mighty thirsty.

[45 2.1]

After ANOTHER 11 pages with no straight answer you must be mighty thirsty.

All he found out was that fast twist 6.5 mms do shoot at high velocity. Something you and the CBA haven't got them to do yet. After all the crap that has been naysayed about high velocity 6.5s, its kind of refreshing to see all the gasps going on. :bigsmyl2:

[Pat I.]

its kind of refreshing to see all the gasps going on. :bigsmyl2:

I must have missed that gasping part.

Now a riddle for you. What's the same about someone posting this picture and someone posting pictures of targets on the internet?......................................... .................................. Answer: Until they're witnessed neither one mean squat.

[StarMetal]

After ANOTHER 11 pages with no straight answer you must be mighty thirsty.

It's all right there in the 11 pages Pat....the alloy, the lube, the technique....send me a plane ticket and I'll fly out and load the damn things for you...geesh, what else do you want. Bret, I think, had gotten it. Apparently you haven't. He's at least thinking.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

I am just absolutely amazed by what some of you write. I’m reading that from most of you that it is, in fact, “easier” to load for accuracy with slower twist barrels. This is even at moderate velocities of 1800 -2000 fps and the higher velocities up through 2400+ fps. It is “easier’ to get best accuracy at 1800-1900 fps from a 10” twist than a 7.5” twist. The 7.5” twist gives best accuracy down in the 1400-1500 fps range. It is “easier” to get the same accuracy at 200 fps with a 12’ twist that you get at 1900 fps with the 10” twist. With 14’ twist it is just as “easy” to get the same accuracy at 2400-2500 fps that you get at 2200 fps with a 12” twist and at 1900 fps with a 10” twist and at 1500 fps with a 7.5” twist. If we do the simple math we find the RPM at each of these “easiest” velocities is pretty much the same. Then the same who say "it's easier with slower twists" then want to say RPM has nothing to do with it. Talk about contradictions.

Now before starmetal, 45 2.1 and others go off again note I am referring to normal cast bullet loads with regular type cast bullets for rifles. If any of them would bother to look at a listing of past and current rifle cast bullets they will notice that the long nose bore riders are the “norm”. Also note that I have said “normal cast bullet loading techniques”. This obviously excludes the specialized methods I and others use who have the inclination and equipment to use them. Most cast bullet shooters have neither the inclination to use those advanced techniques or they really don’t care for HV cast bullet loads. Most all regular cast bullet shooters also lack the extensive equipment that I , starmetal, 45 2.1 and others have. And they are not inclined to purchase that equipment/tools.

The obvious conclusion for the majority of cast bullet shooters is that RPM is the key component to accuracy here. To get best accuracy, given normal and adequate cast bullet loading techniques, simply keep the RPM below a certain level. We can do this two ways; controlling the velocity in a barrel with which we have or by using a barrel with a slower twist if higher velocity is desired or required. Go above that RPM level and almost every cast bullet shooter loses accuracy with such loads. That is a threshold. It can be pushed higher by a few of us with the equipment/tools and inclination to do so. A couple also have some “magical” and “dangerous” methods they use to push the RPM threshold higher. However, the majority of cast bullet shooters will continue to find, with regular cast bullet loads, the RPM threshold to be real and above which accuracy will deteriorate.

The majority of cast bullet shooters are either already aware of this, even though they may not understand it. The others should be made aware of it as it will help them better enjoy our sport and avoid needless frustration. If any of them desire to accumulate the required equipment/tools and want to learn how to push the RPM threshold for accuracy at HV then that information should be readily available without all this “I’m the master and you’re the student or it’s “dangerous” so I won’t tell you ridiculousness.

RPM is indeed the factor a cast bullet shooter must over come if accuracy at HV with a given twist (generally 10” of faster) is desired. The facts are plain to see.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

I denote several inferences to the use of “duplex” loads here. Is that what you are using? You only gave one powder in the load listed for your MS. I know you brought that subject up several years ago and were severely chastised by many even though several of us were interested in what you had to say. The subject was killed before we got any real information. It is too bad the bantering, name calling, curtsy little quips and in general nay-saying many times get a thread locked before those of us who are truly interested get any meaning out of it. If those who get pissed off about certain topics just wouldn’t read them or those who are against it would just say so and leave it be then sometimes those who are interested in such esoteric topics could have a meaningful discussion about it.

Hopefully you will answer my question (“are you using a duplex load in the MS or any of your HC cast bullet loads?). A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice and I’ll let it go at that.

Larry Gibson.

[Pat I.]

send me a plane ticket and I'll fly out and load the damn things for you...geesh, what else do you want.

I imagine the same thing everyone else wants, the facts. Puzzles aren't my strong point. You could have shown me "The Technique" when I offered to drive down and see your 8 twist 6.5 Grendel shoot 5/8 inch groups at 2400 fps but you never got back to me on that.

[Char-Gar]

"All he found out was that fast twist 6.5 mms do shoot at high velocity. Something you and the CBA haven't got them to do yet. After all the crap that has been naysayed about high velocity 6.5s, its kind of refreshing to see all the gasps going on. "


Bobby.. Any gasping going on has nothing to do with the loads used and/or not used nor the sucess or non-sucess of cast bullets in a fast twist 6.5. Such gasping, if any, is related to the opaqueness of this whole thread.

[45 2.1]

I must have missed that gasping part. Yes, your probably correct, you do seem to miss a lot.

Now a riddle for you. What's the same about someone posting this picture and someone posting pictures of targets on the internet?......................................... .................................. Answer: Until they're witnessed neither one mean squat. Some people don't need to hit by a train to know it would kill them when they step in front of it. Perhaps some people need direct evidence though.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

I denote several inferences to the use of “duplex” loads here. Is that what you are using? You only gave one powder in the load listed for your MS. I know you brought that subject up several years ago and were severely chastised by many even though several of us were interested in what you had to say. The subject was killed before we got any real information. It is too bad the bantering, name calling, curtsy little quips and in general nay-saying many times get a thread locked before those of us who are truly interested get any meaning out of it. If those who get pissed off about certain topics just wouldn’t read them or those who are against it would just say so and leave it be then sometimes those who are interested in such esoteric topics could have a meaningful discussion about it.

Hopefully you will answer my question (“are you using a duplex load in the MS or any of your HC cast bullet loads?). A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice and I’ll let it go at that.

Larry Gibson.

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category. Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

Joe

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=Chargar;661016 Bobby.. Any gasping going on has nothing to do with the loads used and/or not used nor the sucess or non-sucess of cast bullets in a fast twist 6.5. Such gasping, if any, is related to the opaqueness of this whole thread.[/QUOTE]

Charles, not that you have added anything here but chargin, but i'm somewhat like you, I call them like I see them. Besides, aren't you the one who said he doesn't have any use for high velocity? Opaqueness has no part in this thread. A long standing belief, by many of the fold, that it is impossible (many inferences like that in numerous past posts) to get high velocity and accuracy at the same time from a fast twist 6.5mm was evident until this illuminating thread showed it is possible. Just look at the future possibilities..................................... ........

[Larry Gibson]

I must have missed that gasping part. Yes, your probably correct, you do seem to miss a lot.

Now a riddle for you. What's the same about someone posting this picture and someone posting pictures of targets on the internet?......................................... .................................. Answer: Until they're witnessed neither one mean squat. Some people don't need to hit by a train to know it would kill them when they step in front of it. Perhaps some people need direct evidence though.

My, oh my, are we ever really questioning everyone's veracity! Especially starmetals! I guess we can all start shooting at 50 yards or less and them post them and claim 100 or even 200 yards! Now wouldn't that be meaningful.

I for one give everyone the benifit of the doubt about their claims. If I call BS then i ask for proof. starmetal took some pictures and posted soem groups. I am taking them for face value because i know Joe and have had many phone conversations with him. I will probably get to his place this next year (hoping to be fully retired by then) and do expect him to show me. Until then I'll take his word for it.

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real:-)

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

45 2.1, Don't see the relationship but interesting concept.

Larry you're right. If someone doesn't mind contending with and dancing for this secret nonsense I suppose they're entitled to it. I'm just not cut from that cloth or even know how to deal with it so I'll bow out. I don't know Starmetal but have been reading about his one ragged hole groups for years which automatically raises my warning indicator.

[StarMetal]

I imagine the same thing everyone else wants, the facts. Puzzles aren't my strong point. You could have shown me "The Technique" when I offered to drive down and see your 8 twist 6.5 Grendel shoot 5/8 inch groups at 2400 fps but you never got back to me on that.

Yup, you're right, I never got back to you on that drive down and see me invite because frankly I don't like company. My wife and I like our solitude. Probably the reason we have a pretty much isolated farm in the mountains of TN. Also I don't care if you don't believe the 6.5 Grendel shoots or not. I'm the only person I have to satisfy on that and satisfy myself I have indeed. They also shoot very small holes with jacketed....not just mine, but most all the fellows on the 6.5 forum that own them. It's really a nice little round.

Joe

[StarMetal]

My, oh my, are we ever really questioning everyone's veracity! Especially starmetals! I guess we can all start shooting at 50 yards or less and them post them and claim 100 or even 200 yards! Now wouldn't that be meaningful.

I for one give everyone the benifit of the doubt about their claims. If I call BS then i ask for proof. starmetal took some pictures and posted soem groups. I am taking them for face value because i know Joe and have had many phone conversations with him. I will probably get to his place this next year (hoping to be fully retired by then) and do expect him to show me. Until then I'll take his word for it.

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real:-)

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I want to take my 6.5 Grendel back to the 300 yard mark again and see if it holds the group I shot that one (notice I said one) time. I forget what it was now. I've let the Grendel set in the safe too long, need to get it out.

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

Joe

[45 2.1]

I might even swing over 45 2.1's way just to see if he is for real:-) Larry Gibson

Nahh.....i'm just a figment of your imagination setting on your shoulder saying "you can't do it". You have a good day now buddy.:mrgreen:

[Char-Gar]

Bobby... You are correct that I have added nothing to this conversation but chagrin. Guilty as charged. I guess I just need to ignore the whole mess, as I can't really say everything I think for I would be banned as Starmetal once was.

I know you and Joe to be basicaly good guys, but lordy you two can engage in some infantile behaviour and not be aware of it. Of course it is not my place to point it out as you are not my children. If you were, we would go to the barn for a talk out of the earshot of the women folks. Later we would have a good still drink or too toget the laughter going again and make up.

I remember when you and Old Feller were at each other. He could bait you and you would take bait every time. I see something of the same dynamic going on with this topic. I just don't think you guys can help yourselves. Over my life I have known many folks who held the belief that knowledge is power over others, and to let go of any knoweldge is to lose power. They have a deep seated psychological need for that power, so they won't let it go, but they will certainly let others know they have it.

I don't believe this has anything to do with danger or any things else, but a couple of guys who may or may not have some important information and won't share it because to do so would lose their source of power over others.

I truly wish both of you well and sucess in your quest. There is no charge for this counseling session. I hold no animas for either to you. I just wish you would share what you know or quit talking about what you know, but won't share, because we are not knowledable enough or prudent enough to handle it. Most of us know better than to crimp blasting caps onto the fuse with our teeth anymore. We are not reckless fools. We know out way around a can of gunpower and a pot of hot lead. But that is not really the issue...now is it?

[StarMetal]

I am just absolutely amazed by what some of you write. I’m reading that from most of you that it is, in fact, “easier” to load for accuracy with slower twist barrels. This is even at moderate velocities of 1800 -2000 fps and the higher velocities up through 2400+ fps. It is “easier’ to get best accuracy at 1800-1900 fps from a 10” twist than a 7.5” twist. The 7.5” twist gives best accuracy down in the 1400-1500 fps range. It is “easier” to get the same accuracy at 200 fps with a 12’ twist that you get at 1900 fps with the 10” twist. With 14’ twist it is just as “easy” to get the same accuracy at 2400-2500 fps that you get at 2200 fps with a 12” twist and at 1900 fps with a 10” twist and at 1500 fps with a 7.5” twist. If we do the simple math we find the RPM at each of these “easiest” velocities is pretty much the same. Then the same who say "it's easier with slower twists" then want to say RPM has nothing to do with it. Talk about contradictions.

Now before starmetal, 45 2.1 and others go off again note I am referring to normal cast bullet loads with regular type cast bullets for rifles. If any of them would bother to look at a listing of past and current rifle cast bullets they will notice that the long nose bore riders are the “norm”. Also note that I have said “normal cast bullet loading techniques”. This obviously excludes the specialized methods I and others use who have the inclination and equipment to use them. Most cast bullet shooters have neither the inclination to use those advanced techniques or they really don’t care for HV cast bullet loads. Most all regular cast bullet shooters also lack the extensive equipment that I , starmetal, 45 2.1 and others have. And they are not inclined to purchase that equipment/tools.

The obvious conclusion for the majority of cast bullet shooters is that RPM is the key component to accuracy here. To get best accuracy, given normal and adequate cast bullet loading techniques, simply keep the RPM below a certain level. We can do this two ways; controlling the velocity in a barrel with which we have or by using a barrel with a slower twist if higher velocity is desired or required. Go above that RPM level and almost every cast bullet shooter loses accuracy with such loads. That is a threshold. It can be pushed higher by a few of us with the equipment/tools and inclination to do so. A couple also have some “magical” and “dangerous” methods they use to push the RPM threshold higher. However, the majority of cast bullet shooters will continue to find, with regular cast bullet loads, the RPM threshold to be real and above which accuracy will deteriorate.

The majority of cast bullet shooters are either already aware of this, even though they may not understand it. The others should be made aware of it as it will help them better enjoy our sport and avoid needless frustration. If any of them desire to accumulate the required equipment/tools and want to learn how to push the RPM threshold for accuracy at HV then that information should be readily available without all this “I’m the master and you’re the student or it’s “dangerous” so I won’t tell you ridiculousness.

RPM is indeed the factor a cast bullet shooter must over come if accuracy at HV with a given twist (generally 10” of faster) is desired. The facts are plain to see.


Larry Gibson


Larry,

Well stated. Let me say a few things. I see you are right with me on what you call moderate loads from 1800 fps up some. I call them medium power loads, same thing, just different name. We agree on that.

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist. Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one? Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease. Heck even shooting a jacketed bullet to the limit to get accuracy is hard in the sense of hard on your shoulder, hard on the rifle, hard on your ears. I believe most people like to squeeze the trigger on a rifle that they know isn't going to belt them into the next county rather then on one that does.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV. What would my 30 Luger bullet do and rifle HV....hmmmm...will have to load some in the 30-06 and see maybe.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Bobby... You are correct that I have added nothing to this conversation but chagrin. Guilty as charged. I guess I just need to ignore the whole mess, as I can't really say everything I think for I would be banned as Starmetal once was.

I know you and Joe to be basicaly good guys, but lordy you two can engage in some infantile behaviour and not be aware of it. Of course it is not my place to point it out as you are not my children. If you were, we would go to the barn for a talk out of the earshot of the women folks. Later we would have a good still drink or too toget the laughter going again and make up.

I remember when you and Old Feller were at each other. He could bait you and you would take bait every time. I see something of the same dynamic going on with this topic. I just don't think you guys can help yourselves. Over my life I have known many folks who held the belief that knowledge is power over others, and to let go of any knoweldge is to lose power. They have a deep seated psychological need for that power, so they won't let it go, but they will certainly let others know they have it.

I don't believe this has anything to do with danger or any things else, but a couple of guys who may or may not have some important information and won't share it because to do so would lose their source of power over others.

I truly wish both of you well and sucess in your quest. There is no charge for this counseling session. I hold no animas for either to you. I just wish you would share what you know or quit talking about what you know, but won't share, because we are not knowledable enough or prudent enough to handle it. Most of us know better than to crimp blasting caps onto the fuse with our teeth anymore. We are not reckless fools. We know out way around a can of gunpower and a pot of hot lead. But that is not really the issue...now is it?

Charger,

Good post. Let's talk about that danger. I doubted Bob when he told me of it. About two weeks ago my 28 grain load of 4895 went to 33 grains on purpose. As mentioned somewhere in this long thread I shot them and they had very very hard bolt handle lift. Primers were pretty flat. Not the molten in lead look, but never the less flat with a little bit of primer puckering around the firing pin indention. I goes "Whoa!!!" Put them over the chrono too. For the devil of me I forget the velocity, but they were past the limit for jacketed in the 6.5MS. Larry pay attention here. They were over 2500 fps. So let's just take that 2500 even and figure the rpm. It's 225,000 rpm. They went into an inch!! Back to you charger....with the wrong powder the specialized loading can be very very hot, which equates to dangerous. So take a novice cast shooter and "let's see, size the case, mmhmmm, next primer, okay, my measured powder, unhuh, this, that, some of this, cap her up with my bullet, there I go".....EXPLOSION!!!!! Aw hell, look at my rifle "Honey, I'm bleeding, don't get upset". So you might ask how dangerous is it if you do it right? Well, that can be dangerous too...look at all the folks I kind of p o'ed shooting those HV group....some would probably like to kick my hind end. Not dangerous at all the right way charger. Not hard to load either. Just hard finding the right sweet spot.

Aw shucks, y'all read this long post and dang Joe still hasn't told us a darn thing. Sorry, I'm not going to tell you anything except 6.5's with fast twist can shoot small groups at HV. I've done that. I believe the 6.5 is particularly hard to do that with because the bullets are long, skinny, and fragile compared to big old 30 caliber bullet.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category.

Thanks for the quick answer. I thought you had not due to our previous private conversations but with the inferences made i wanted to be sure.

Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

I concur 100%.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category.

Thanks for the quick answer. I thought you had not due to our previous private conversations but with the inferences made i wanted to be sure.

Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

I concur 100%.

Larry Gibson


Larry,

Just loaded up some rounds for the 260 Rem. First off the group buy is way too long for that rifle. That's even after I throated the throat out longer so I could chamber rounds with 140 grain jacketed bullets. Now the 266455 and 266469 fit it p e r f e c t. Raining here so when it stops I'll be testing it. Trying a slightly modified load of the same 29 grain 4895 that went into the 6.5MS.

By the way even with encouragement from some friends I wouldn't load a booster duplex load with my 5010 powder.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

I've for some time wondered how well the soft cast bullets we are now shooting this fast hold their shape due to set back. In measuring the BCs up through 2600+ fps with 311466 the BC gets lower as the velocity increases. This is natural but the results I've gotten seem to be a larger drop than expected. It could be because of set back with the nose flattening out(?). That's just a thought though as i've not really pondered it that much. If your bullet is holding form then it should still shoot well to 300 yards. I've shot many a FP cast bulleet farther than that with very good accuracy until they start dropping subsonic. There are some exceptions though. We won't know until you try it. Id like to see you try it at 200 yards at the same shooting session. If it holds at 200 but not at 300 then you could shoot at 225, 250 and 275 to see where it "loses it, if it does.

BTW; 300 yards is a "medium" range to me.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Nahh.....i'm just a figment of your imagination setting on your shoulder saying "you can't do it". You have a good day now buddy.:mrgreen:

Well just maybe I'll show up back there one of these days and you can climb down off my shoulder and show me how it's done;-)

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

I though about trying the 6.5MS at 300, but I don't think that group buy bullet is a good long range streamline one for the job. Do you???

I've for some time wondered how well the soft cast bullets we are now shooting this fast hold their shape due to set back. In measuring the BCs up through 2600+ fps with 311466 the BC gets lower as the velocity increases. This is natural but the results I've gotten seem to be a larger drop than expected. It could be because of set back with the nose flattening out(?). That's just a thought though as i've not really pondered it that much. If your bullet is holding form then it should still shoot well to 300 yards. I've shot many a FP cast bulleet farther than that with very good accuracy until they start dropping subsonic. There are some exceptions though. We won't know until you try it. Id like to see you try it at 200 yards at the same shooting session. If it holds at 200 but not at 300 then you could shoot at 225, 250 and 275 to see where it "loses it, if it does.

BTW; 300 yards is a "medium" range to me.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I don't consider 300 yards real long distance. If the dang fellow hadn't sold the next big long field adjacent to mine I may have been able to shoot 500 yards or over.

Remember the 19 years, or so, kid that was on the forum that shot long distance...believe it was about 600 yards with a 25-06 at milk jugs full of water? He was pretty good at it. Wonder what happen to him.

Once when I lived out in the sticks in OK there was a river down the road from me that wound through nowhere. Folks use to shoot and fish there. Well when standing along the river (atop a bank actually) and looking to my right I was looking inline with the direction of the river. It went straight quite a ways. Never had an actual measurement, but we're talking 1/4-1/2 mile. Had the Brazilian 7x57 with the Lymand 150 Loverin 287405 and shooting it around 1800-1900 fps. I aimed just about level being I was atop the bank or hill overtop that river straight away. When I fired I watched for the splash. My God!!! I saw it and it was awful awful far down that river. I was impressed. My best friend and I were going to have a shooting contest, his Model 700 Remington in 30-06 using jacketed 168 grain Sierra Match Kings and me using my 30-40 krag using the 311284 cast loaded to about 1900-2000 fps at the John Zink shooting range on the 1000 yard course. The bet was I couldn't hit a refrigerator shipping cardboard box. I was allowed some sighters..I mean after all how the hell would I know where to set the ladder sight being that wasn't the bullet or load designed for the sights or visa versa. He said okay. Well another little smarty Army brat that worked with us at the refinery kept telling him that I was going to walk away with his Model 700 in my possession so Mike wouldn't do and we never did get around to shooting that far to see what our rifles would do. The clinch was when Doug, the Army brat, told him I was shooting a 220 grin bullet at just about the velocity that rifle was set up for. That stopped Mike. Mike and I shot a lot together. That bugger can shoot a rifle off hand very well too.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist.

This is exactly what "amazes" me as I posted. Just what exactly is it that you think "forgives" those defects? It is the lessor RPM of the slower twist. That's pretty plain to see isn't it?

Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one?

No it won't Joe given equal velocities and equal stability. However given equal velocity the slower twist will give equal accuracy at a higher velocity. I have proved that over and over again with the extensive testing of the .308W in 10, 12 and 14" twist rifles. I get the same accuracy at 2500+ fps in the 14" twist that i get at 2200 fps in the 12" twist and at 1900 fps in the 10" twist. Do the mathc joe, the RPM is close to the same for all of them.

Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease.

There you go again, off on tangents about J bullets and cars:-) Did you ever consider, in your anolgy, that some J bullets are impossible to shoot at HV because the blow up from to many RPMs? I thought not.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV.

There in lies the reason we don't discuss loads such as your 45-70 and handgun loads. They do not exceed the RPM threshold, most do not even enter the RPM threshold range. There fore they should shoot well, all other things being done correctly for a cast bullet load. BTW; In my Siamese Mauser 45-70 (it has one of them "crappy" E.R. Shaw barrels on it) I have shot the Lyman 457483 (GC'd 390 gr fully dressed) at 2300 fps without pressure problems. The RPM of that load was not quite 80,000. Thus even with a slightly faster twist your Marlin load still had less RPM. I have to tell on myself here....There was some adverse "pressure" ....it was to the shoulder as you mention. As a matter of fact it was down right fierce off the bench:-(

Larry Gibson

[carpetman]

Starmetal--Joe that 19 year old kid you mentioned was 25-06 man or something like that. He was plannning on joining the USMC and wanted to be a sniper. I dont know if he could meet their weight standard--he was very tall and skinny. His family was moving from I think Oregon to Idaho. I sent him some .243 bullets about the time he was moving and never heard from him or saw him post again.
Larry you cant talk accuracy to Starmetal Joe. He doesnt understand inaccuracy. He has never experienced it. Never shot anything but a one hole group. Like trying to explain color to a person that has always been blind.

[onceabull]

Hopefully this thread will stay open long enough for "tiger" to write in and give us the "truth"(pride of Austria version) Onceabull

[StarMetal]

Starmetal--Joe that 19 year old kid you mentioned was 25-06 man or something like that. He was plannning on joining the USMC and wanted to be a sniper. I dont know if he could meet their weight standard--he was very tall and skinny. His family was moving from I think Oregon to Idaho. I sent him some .243 bullets about the time he was moving and never heard from him or saw him post again.
Larry you cant talk accuracy to Starmetal Joe. He doesnt understand inaccuracy. He has never experienced it. Never shot anything but a one hole group. Like trying to explain color to a person that has always been blind.

That's the fellow Ray. I didn't know he planned on joining the Marines.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Let's talk accuracy also. I agree it is easier to get accuracy with slower twist, or even with slower velocity in slower twists. I think any defects in the bullet or the reloading procedure are more forgiven in the slower twist.

This is exactly what "amazes" me as I posted. Just what exactly is it that you think "forgives" those defects? It is the lessor RPM of the slower twist. That's pretty plain to see isn't it?

Now let's talk about the accuracy. Let's leave the easier part out and just talk the actual group. Will a slow twist accuracy be more accurate then a fast twist one?

No it won't Joe given equal velocities and equal stability. However given equal velocity the slower twist will give equal accuracy at a higher velocity. I have proved that over and over again with the extensive testing of the .308W in 10, 12 and 14" twist rifles. I get the same accuracy at 2500+ fps in the 14" twist that i get at 2200 fps in the 12" twist and at 1900 fps in the 10" twist. Do the mathc joe, the RPM is close to the same for all of them.

Let me put it to you another way before you start to think of your reply. Many jacketed bullets shoot more accurate smaller groups when pushed to the limits. Not all them, just many. See what I mean? Nothing to do with ease.

There you go again, off on tangents about J bullets and cars:-) Did you ever consider, in your anolgy, that some J bullets are impossible to shoot at HV because the blow up from to many RPMs? I thought not.

Many have mentioned no need for HV loads. I've wrote this before, but here goes again. I only got into cast bullets because I got satisfaction of making my own bullets. I never started with the pistol/shotgun powders. I merely wanted to replace my factory jacketed bullet with a cast one. I started right off with rifle powders and at the 1800 fps level and up. I never shot below that only rarely. I bought a 45-70 good while back. Bought the RCBS 405 mould for it. Well the first load I settled on was a pretty stiff one using 4895 powder that got that bullet up to 1850 fps from my carbines 20 inch barrel. Yes, that curved steel butt plate bit me pretty good. Only recently have I dropped that down to 1450 fps after realizing I didn't need to push those big slugs as fast as I was. I did harvest a flue of deer with them though. I guess the HV with cast bullets in rifles comes pushing Chevies hard and fast on the street and track.

Funny how we agrue over HV in rifles, but not in handguns. You or someone will say well they don't have fast twists. Yeah some of them do. Like my 30 Luger and I push it too with accuracy. No specialized loading techniques there one iota. Just the bullet and the powder. And yes it doesn't have the rpm of the Swede at HV.

There in lies the reason we don't discuss loads such as your 45-70 and handgun loads. They do not exceed the RPM threshold, most do not even enter the RPM threshold range. There fore they should shoot well, all other things being done correctly for a cast bullet load. BTW; In my Siamese Mauser 45-70 (it has one of them "crappy" E.R. Shaw barrels on it) I have shot the Lyman 457483 (GC'd 390 gr fully dressed) at 2300 fps without pressure problems. The RPM of that load was not quite 80,000. Thus even with a slightly faster twist your Marlin load still had less RPM. I have to tell on myself here....There was some adverse "pressure" ....it was to the shoulder as you mention. As a matter of fact it was down right fierce off the bench:-(

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I'm not talking about driving jacketed bullets to the velocity that they blowup. I'm just stating that some of them shoot better at the highest velocity you can safely shoot the bullet. But that's another story for another topic.

Joe

[Ricochet]

Wikipedia's actually pretty good on most things. If you see something wrong, fix it yourself.

[Bret4207]

No no, not at all Larry. I brought that up as an analogy to Chargers post about reluctance to post a loading technique that's not the normal and can be dangerous. I referred to a "duplex" as being in that category. Larry I feel that having to resort to a duplex load in a cast bullet round with smokeless powder as just being a bit too much to have to do in order to get it to shoot. Now this doesn't include your black powder duplex loaders.

Joe

Well, that was possibility #2 of 3. #1 possibility bring us back to to the question of what you are using.

Signed, Still Thinking in Macomb....

[Larry Gibson]

All

Is there some way we can bring this thread back to the topic, i.e. loading for the 6.5 Swede?

Larry Gibson

[O.S.O.K.]

:holysheep