which .45 ACP to buy?

[exile]

I have been thinking lately about buying a handgun in .45 ACP. For one thing, I confessed on another thread that I had never owned one, and banning me was discussed. So, I thought that I had better change my ways.

I am leaning toward a 1911, because I have never owned one. However funds are tight and getting a good 1911 can be an iffy proposition no matter how much you spend. I am just a recreational shooter, so what I end up getting may not be that crucial. In short, I shoot because I like to reload different cartridges and for fun. So, here are the guns I have thought of buying.

1. Glock 21SF.

2. Para-Ordnance GI expert 1911.

3. S & W 625.

4. Thompson Contender in .45 ACP.

5. Kimber CDP (three-inch barrel).

Of all the .45 ACP handguns I have shot in the past, believe it or not, the one I enjoyed the most was the three inch Kimber. I shot it side by side with a full size Kimber and I really thought it recoiled less due to the quicker recoil impulse of the short slide. However, like I said, funds are tight and those are very expensive. One thing that mitigates against the 1911 is that I am left-handed. An ambidextrous safety is necessary, but an added expense.

It usually takes me at least a year to decide on a new gun, so for now I am just talking (or typing), but Teddy's funeral is on now, and this beats watching that any day. Thanks for your input.

exile

[Heavy lead]

Love the 625, but you IMHO gotta get a 1911. I do understand your liking of the 3" Kimber, my favorite is actually a 4" Kimber. I shoot it much better than any full size 1911 I've ever shot. I have two 4" models now an aluminum frame and a steel frame, can't decide which I like better.

[cabezaverde]

Look at the 3rd generation Smith and Wesson auto loaders.

I know it is heresy, buy I have owned 1911's and prefer the Smiths. Picking up my new used 4516 on Monday.

[docone31]

Taurus PT 1911.
All the bells and whistles right out of the box! I got my wife one, and she loves it. It is the one she would turn to if needed.
At the range, she fires a gazillion rounds at 50ft with amazing accuracy.
It loves the 200gn RF! All day long.
If you want a 1911, you couldn't do better.
Right out of the box.

[HeavyMetal]

Bottom line is your"type" of 45 auto will be decided by your budget!

I will suggest you take a real hard look at the "new" Taurus 1911 it has all the features a lefty would look for and the price is very competative.

If I were going out today to buy a new 45 auto I'd have to start with the Taurus. I am a lefty so certain issues with revolvers kinda regulate them to fun catagory.

I won't cloud the issue any more as I have very hard rules on carry guns and many pistols these days don't fill the bill period!

[Dframe]

All good choices. I love my Colt Officers ACP though. In spite of it's 3 1/2 inch barrel it is extremely accurate.

[markinalpine]

Bottom line is your"type" of 45 auto will be decided by your budget!

I will suggest you take a real hard look at the "new" Taurus 1911 it has all the features a lefty would look for and the price is very competative.

If I were going out today to buy a new 45 auto I'd have to start with the Taurus. I am a lefty so certain issues with revolvers kinda regulate them to fun catagory.

I won't cloud the issue any more as I have very hard rules on carry guns and many pistols these days don't fill the bill period!

Please remember that this is a board for Shooting Sports Enthusiasts, and compose your remarks accordingly! Harumph! Harumph!

:kidding:

Mark [smilie=1:

[wiljen]

the Rock Island 45s are good solid guns for the $ too. Their price point is enough below the GI expert that you can add better sights and still be in the low end of the 1911 ballpark.

[ebner glocken]

I own a couple of 1911s and am also a lefty. One is pretty much issue and the other a gold cup. For the money I wouldn't recommend a gold cup to anyone, shoots good enough but wasn't impressed with the fit and finish for the money.

As far as design goes I've never felt inhibited by not having an ambi safety, in fact the standard safety will take more abuse w/o breaking. After awhile you won't even think about reaching around the slide with your thumb. Left index finger drops a mag quite quickly as well.

I do believe if I was in the market for a plain jane one today the rock islands would be at the top of my list.

Ebner

[August]

I was luke warm on getting a Springfield when I first bought it. However, their service proved to be right up there with the best I've ever received. Now, you might say a new pistol should not need service, and I'd agree with you. But, it did and they really came through efficiently, promptly, and professionally. So, factor Springfield's excellent service into your decision.

[jeff423]

FWIW,

If you go to the 1911 forum, you will find that Para does not have a great reputation.

Jeff

[KYCaster]

Don't buy a 1911 until you check out STI. Since Bill Clinton said we can't buy Norinco, STI's Spartan is the best 1911 value on the market right now.

Jerry

[Catshooter]

I second the any "4500" seriers of from S&W. Esp if funds are tight. The 645/4506 are excellent, as are the 4516s. Their Shorty 45 is my hands down favorite, but they are not cheap, if/when they are sighted. And they are rare in the wild.

I'm glad to hear that you are changeing your ways, as never owning a 45, if I recall correctly, is grounds for banishment (or should be, fer cryin' out loud).

:)


Cat

[exile]

All great ideas. Keep them coming if you have any more. More and more I am thinking it is time for a 1911. I have always been a Glock shooter, but the Glock .45's just don't fit my hand as well. Good to hear that a lefty can get used to a standard 1911 configuration. Sorry to hear about Para's bad reputation, I was kind of thinking that would be my first choice. My impression of STI was that I would have to sell my house to afford one. I just started reading "The Gun Digest Book of the 1911" so maybe I will get some more ideas.

Does anyone shoot a Thompson Contender in .45 ACP? A strange combination I admit, but it might be fun. Thanks again.

exile

[JSH]

exile, maybe we are related some how? I went through the same thing you mention in your first post.

Being a lefty, and wanting any kind of speed form the wheel gun, may slow you down as all the workings are on the wrong side.
I suggest you really look at the single stack and double stack widths. It took me a while to come up with a one or the other I liked. Funny as it may seem I only found 1, 1911 I liked that felt like it belonged in my hand. An old race gun from the early 80's, that wasn't for sale.
jeff

[crazy mark]

T/C in 45 acp. I think so. I can shoot WC's if I want to. I have a 14" bbl. It fits with my RBH Conv 45 acp/45 LC and Norinco 1911. Mark

[mike in co]

I

2. Para-Ordnance GI expert 1911.


exile


next question....

[Echo]

+1 for KyCaster. I don't have one, but if I were going to buy another .45ACP, my first choice would be the STI Spartan. Good features, and inexpensive. If they made them in .40 S&W, I would be shooting one now.

[HeavyMetal]

I also have a Contender in 45 ACP. The 10 Inch Octagon barrel.

Love the accuracy and I can shoot any boolit configuration in it, "Double Taps" are a little tough.....

Again it's what do you want it to do and how much do you have to spend.

[JIMinPHX]

I second the any "4500" seriers of from S&W. Esp if funds are tight. The 645/4506 are excellent, as are the 4516s.

That's your pick for a BUDGET gun?:shock: Wow, I need to go budget basement bargain shopping with you cowboy.:) I'm a pretty big fan of the 4506 & it's close cousins, but I almost never see them for less than $550 around here, & that's for a well worn one, off the used rack. Maybe the prices are better out your way.


That aside...
It's almost hard to find a 1911 that I don't like. Even most of the lower end ones are usually pretty good. The only ones that I stay away from are the Llamas. None of the aftermarket 1911 parts fit them at all. The Llamas are built to different spec's. Things like Ballaster Molinas are a heartbeat away. 1911 barrels & magazines fit them, but none of the other parts do. They do pop up in good condition for well under $300 though. I sometimes even see some for under $200.

I used to be a pretty big fan of Springfield's low to mid grade 1911's, but since they are now being made in Brazil, I'm kind of luke warm on them. The quality is not quite the same anymore. The higher end Springfields are still nice American made stuff, but you pay for it.

My pick for a budget gun in that caliber would actually be an older Star. I think that they are really under valued in the market. I see them for $200-$300 most of the time. If you can find a "super" variant, they have very nice features & are a pleasure to take down. I also prefer the fact that the Stars do not have a grip safety, but that's just my personal preference.

If you have a little more to spend, but not a boat load, then the S&W 1911 is a real nice piece to look at. It's got all the features that I would want on a 1911 already on it & it cost's less than the Kimber. By the way, Kimber was getting their frames from S&W the last I was told. I really don't think that you are taking a step down by getting a S&W.

If you go with the wheel gun, then you will probably find that moon clips are a bit of a pain to mess with. In that case, I would load up .45 auto rim cases & not the standard .45acp.

...just my thoughts,
Jim

[exile]

I just looked on the 1911 forum regarding the Para GI Expert pistol. Some good, some bad, mostly good. No one seems to know if they are forged or cast frames. Lots of opinions though. Main issues seem to be finish comes off easliy (I have heard the same thing about Kimbers though).

I was wondering about the Para "power extractor". I do not want to buy anything that will be hard on brass. Longevity of brass is very important to me as to all here.

It seems that whenever anyone comes out with a decently priced 1911, there is an "introductory" price and then things go through the roof. That certainly happened with Kimbers, probably Taurus guns too. Everyone seems to think that the Para GI's are selling well and are hard to find.

I am still nervous about 1911's, being a Glock shooter for so long. In my experience, Glocks are something you simply buy and forget about. They just work. But with the .45 ACP there is the grip size issue.

Still investigating other 1911's, it just seems like there is a lot of information out now about the Para GI, so I thought I would take advantage of the talk while it is there. Thanks for all your input.

Thought you might enjoy this video if you have not already seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj5Kcs4dzro

exile

[Dframe]

I also shoot left handed and have fitted my colt with an ambi-safety. The safety is by kimber and the finish matches perfectly with by colt's matt finished blue. As someone else said, the magazine release is easily handled with the index or middle finger of the left hand. Most leftys don't even think about it.

[wonderwolf]

I LOOOOVE my 625 and shoot it as much as my 1911, moon clips can be had cheap still and mil surp mags for the 1911 can be had for under $10 if you look around. I started with a Rock Island 1911A1 but have modified it with a commander hammer and beaver tail safety.

[9.3X62AL]

I've used a now-ancient S&W 645 for a VERY long time, and couldn't be happier with its endurance. It is on its second barrel and fifth slide stop, but 50.000+ rounds will wear on a few things.

I'm also on the hunt for a slightly smaller 45 ACP for concealed carry, and will opt for the SIG P-220 once the cash sitch around here stabilizes.

[StarMetal]

Al,

Here's my smaller 1911. Limited edition Gold Cup Combat Commander tuned and wearing ebony diamond grips. This is my favorite 1911.

Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/ColtCB1.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/ColtCB.jpg

[Piedmont]

9.3x62 AL, What did your worn out barrel look like? I'm guessing most of that use was with department issued jacs. Did it wear out on the inside or was the fit ont he outside so loose that is wasn't accurate anymore?

A Sig 220 is a pretty big gun, though light if aluminum framed.

[Shiloh]

There are so many quality 1911's to choose from. What is your budget!! I would think you would need a minimum of $500 to start shopping with.

I put 120 rounds through a 625 4" yesterday. That was after the gunshow. The last 625 I saw, last spring, was around $550

Shiloh

[ETG]

I have had several 1911s. Still have one. My favorite 45 (and the one I carry) is the SIG P245. No need for an ambi safety :grin:

[35remington]

One of the facts of life for the 1911 user is that there's about 20+ manufacturers out there, and that they have different ideas for the design that affect function in some instances.

There have also been varying degrees of faithfulness to the original design parameters, which sometimes compromises function. While imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, imitation is also subject to misinterpretation.

Please also read up and study magazine design to appreciate the difference in how they work, as some feed more smoothly than others, and they are not all feeding the 1911 the way it was meant to be fed.

I'd suggest m1911.org, reading up on the Gunsmithing Section in the forums and the stickies there relating to 1911 functioning. Also look under the stickies in the magazine section for very valuable information on the differences in how magazines feed in the 1911. This can be critical in your gun for reliable function, and those that know and understand these differences have had better success with the 1911 and how it functions than those who do not.

Many different brands of 1911's have special sections there (e.g. Colt, Kimber, Springfield) and you may get direct feedback from many members on how well their particular brands work for them.

[Noxi0uS]

Im gonna just throw this one out there, I was a kimber fan for a while and carried a 1911 TLE RL II 4" in Stainless. It is a nice gun but it was very PICKY about ammo YMMV. Anyway If you are looking at a Glock or S&W have you looked at the newer M&P line? One can be had at a gun show for around $500. I own one and swear I will never carry a 1911 again. A smart man once told me, a Kimber is something you show your friends, a Smith and Wesson is something you show your enemies. The new M&P 45 eats anything I can throw at it and has a nice cap of 10+1 or 14+1 with the extended mags. I shoot the S&W a lot better and best of all its my new CC and it is a LOT lighter and causes less fatigue. I also have the model with the thumb safety.

[cabezaverde]

Shop around.

This is the 4516 I just picked up for 450.00 OTD. Single action - double action, 7+1, compact, stainless. It is my practice gun, I carry it's twin, an alloy frame 457. You can buy those for about $350.

[peter nap]

I just looked on the 1911 forum regarding the Para GI Expert pistol. Some good, some bad, mostly good. No one seems to know if they are forged or cast frames. Lots of opinions though. Main issues seem to be finish comes off easliy (I have heard the same thing about Kimbers though).

I was wondering about the Para "power extractor". I do not want to buy anything that will be hard on brass. Longevity of brass is very important to me as to all here.

It seems that whenever anyone comes out with a decently priced 1911, there is an "introductory" price and then things go through the roof. That certainly happened with Kimbers, probably Taurus guns too. Everyone seems to think that the Para GI's are selling well and are hard to find.

I am still nervous about 1911's, being a Glock shooter for so long. In my experience, Glocks are something you simply buy and forget about. They just work. But with the .45 ACP there is the grip size issue.

Still investigating other 1911's, it just seems like there is a lot of information out now about the Para GI, so I thought I would take advantage of the talk while it is there. Thanks for all your input.

Thought you might enjoy this video if you have not already seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj5Kcs4dzro

exile

I have several 1911;s including the Para Gi Expert. It seems that is yet another gun you either love or hate. I love mine.
I asked Para about the slide. It is Cast. Big deal. I think everything Ruger and Thompson make are cast.

The finish on Para's is not very durable. That's the worst thing I can say about it. In over 1200 shots I have had 1 Failure to eject and no ftf''s.

It will not shoot competition bulls eye but is darn accurate for an out of the box 1911.

20 yards
Sorry, wrong targetXXXXXXXXXXX

I did change the grips on mine but even that isn't necessary.

Like Taurus, it has a lifetime Warranty and unlike Taurus, there aren't a lot of reports of sending it back for the same thing repeatedly. I also have several Tauruses, not not their 1911.

I have a Kimber also and like it but hear bad things about the new ones.

You pays your money...and you makes your choice.
Good Luck!

[StarMetal]

The pistol I just talked about with feed anything I feed including empty cases. Right now it's loaded with the RCBS Cowboy bullet and boy does it love that bullet. That's a pretty heavy blunt nose bullet too. First time I shot that bullet I had a 2 inch black bull on the target at 25 yards. I fired five shots didn't see anything. I thought crap, I missed the whole target. Walked up and all five chewed a hole in the center of the bull. Talk about happy.

Joe

[Slow Elk 45/70]

[Been shooting thess since 1963[/B] all kinds and makes, If I was going to buy one now I would go with the S&W for $$$$$, you can spend all you like..IMHO ..M

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I know that the following statement will ruffle feathers, but when it comes to 1911s Kimber or Colt is the way to go (notice how I listed Kimber first). I am a revolver person so the 625 is an excellent choice in my opinion, and sense money as all ways is a concern take a look at a Ruger Black Hawk in 45 Colt with a 45ACP conversion cylinder. Regardless of budget the Black Hawk deserves a look, two calibers, naturally ambidextrous, reliable, accurate, plenty of power to hunt with and the versatility to plink with. I don’t really like Glocks, and when it comes to the T/Cs there are way better 45 calibers for a single shot then the 45ACP.

[alamogunr]

I have 2 Para Ordinance, a P12-45 and a P13-45. Had both for about 14-15 years. I like the feel of the double stack grip size. But then I have a Hogue Handall (?) on my Glock 21. I don't consider my hands to be extra large so don't be scared off by those who talk about large grips. The cautions about Para may be true for recent production but since mine are older, I can't comment. I've had no problems. I haven't checked prices but you should be able to find one at a decent price if you look hard.

John
W.TN

[wallenba]

I like shooting my 625 better than my Colt Guvmint, only because it's less finicky (finick free actually), does'nt toss my brass in the grass, and is probably more accurate (might be a toss-up there).
Also gives me the option to use 45 auto rim. And its easier to clean. Loads almost as fast, with as many loaded moon clips as you can carry, moon clips being way cheaper than magazines.

[9.3X62AL]

9.3x62 AL, What did your worn out barrel look like? I'm guessing most of that use was with department issued jacs. Did it wear out on the inside or was the fit ont he outside so loose that is wasn't accurate anymore?

A Sig 220 is a pretty big gun, though light if aluminum framed.

The rifling was visibly rounded at the "drive" side of the lands, and could be discerned with a magnifying glass. Even so, both ball FMJs and duty HPs still shot pretty well. It wouldn't shoot cast as well as it once did, though--and I could see evidence of boolit skidding or poor engagement. The use of boolits sized .454" didn't help at all.

So, from this set of conditions I am inclined to think that exterior fit was still in pretty good order. A pistol that won't shoot castings would get little love hereabouts! I wanted to install a Bar-Sto barrel, but aftermarket barrels can't be certified for duty use, so I had an agency armorer friend of mine replace the barrel with a new one from the factory. It was almost a drop-in fit. I ran a couple hundred WWB FMJs through it without a stutter, then some cast SWCs to really buck the odds. That was in 1997, IIRC--and I'm about 12K deep into the current barrel, mostly castings since that time. I don't carry it much any more, although it has never given me a reason not to. I fire it 3x-4x a year, and it just runs like a top.

The P-220 is substantially smaller and lighter than that 645. I really like "Commander-pattern" pistols--the SIG P-220/226, Glock 17/22, CZ-75, Browning HP, or Joe's Commander/1911. The Glock 20/21 is enough bigger and heavier (when loaded) to make them a bit much for CCW. The all-steel 645 weighs less "full-up" than does the Glock 21, and the grip is narrower--although the 645 is no lightweight, either. I have two full-sized pistols that are arguably CCW-capable, the 645 and a S&W 1026 in 10mm. The shorter barrels on the "Commander-pattern" pistols (4"-4.4") conceal more easily for me, and the lighter frame of most P-220s saves a bit of weight. I had a S&W 4513 for a time, and there's not enough grip for me. The full-size frame/slightly-shortened slide and barrel of the P-220 et al has been the best combo for my subjective and practical autopistol needs to date. For certain, the Commander-pattern pistols get the most range time of my autopistol collection--just like the 4"-5" D/A wheelguns. And they are also my first choice as CCW tools.

Just my dos centavos'-worth. Everyone's situation, physique, and preferences differ. My own needs prioritize controllability over concealability, and my paws don't get along with small-framed handguns very well--not for 'instinctive' or point-shooting, at least.

[StarMetal]

I like shooting my 625 better than my Colt Guvmint, only because it's less finicky (finick free actually), does'nt toss my brass in the grass, and is probably more accurate (might be a toss-up there).
Also gives me the option to use 45 auto rim. And its easier to clean. Loads almost as fast, with as many loaded moon clips as you can carry, moon clips being way cheaper than magazines.

How you get the wheelgun is easier to clean. On a 1911 you have one barrel and on chamber to clean. You have on barrel and six chambers. Cleaning the front, rear, and sides the cylinder, the frame...equals more to clean then the 1911. I wouldn't stake my life on my 1911 if it wasn't reliable..which it very reliable. For war or self protection I could care less where my empties go. Peace time target shooting or hunting...maybe.

If someone has one of the wonder nines with the high capacity magazines you'll be reloading three times to their one. Even on the Glock 21 you'll be reloading twice to their one.

I reckon because wheelguns are so much better is the reason all major armies use them.

Joe

Joe

[-06]

Have had two Para 14s and currently a Warthog. My old tried and true Colt 1911 is still hanging in there. You mentioned above that most armies carry wheel guns. I believe you are mistaken about that. Most carry autoloaders IMO. Chineese/Russian/English/American all are using 9's(I think-do not keep tabs on them). England used to use the old Webley 45s. wc

[mike in co]

i have one problem with any colt product. some of you are too young, some are too blind.

colt attempted to sell YOUR GUN RIGHTS AWAY to stay in business with the government making m16's and something less to the populace.
yes you will have to do the research....but it happened and anyone spending money on a colt product is supporting a company that does not care about YOUR RIGHTS, the CONSTITUTION, only thier bottom line.

like i said buy a para and forget the rest.
the buyer has not set a budget...................
till he does nothing makes much sense.....

mike in co

[2ndAmendmentNut]

But with the .45 ACP there is the grip size issue.

Take a look at the 45acp Springfield XDs, no grip problem there and last time I looked the mag held 13+1 rounds!

[9.3X62AL]

I reckon because wheelguns are so much better is the reason all major armies use them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think Joe was being a mite facetious.

This is like a 70s Revival, revo vs. autopistol and 9mm vs. 45 ACP. I'll make popcorn, be right back.

The best gun to have is the one that's in your hand when the excrement hits the revolving ventilator.

[StarMetal]

Have had two Para 14s and currently a Warthog. My old tried and true Colt 1911 is still hanging in there. You mentioned above that most armies carry wheel guns. I believe you are mistaken about that. Most carry autoloaders IMO. Chineese/Russian/English/American all are using 9's(I think-do not keep tabs on them). England used to use the old Webley 45s. wc


I was being sarcastic. I know most modern armies carry auto's.

I'd like to point out that I like and have both types of handguns. The only handgun I haven't owned is a single shot.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think Joe was being a mite facetious.

This is like a 70s Revival, revo vs. autopistol and 9mm vs. 45 ACP. I'll make popcorn, be right back.

The best gun to have is the one that's in your hand when the excrement hits the revolving ventilator.

Well Al, that popcorn brings up a few problems too. White popcorn, yellow? Buttered? What kind of salt? Sea salt? Too many choices.:kidding:

Joe

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;651711]How you get the wheelgun is easier to clean. On a 1911 you have one barrel and on chamber to clean. You have on barrel and six chambers. Cleaning the front, rear, and sides the cylinder, the frame...equals more to clean then the 1911. I wouldn't stake my life on my 1911 if it wasn't reliable..which it very reliable. For war or self protection I could care less where my empties go. Peace time target shooting or hunting...maybe.

Joe

My goverment model has been accurized and does not come apart like stock
1911's, also has wire rails in the slide to stop slop. Not a big problem but from my point of view, brushing out the bore and cylinders and scrubbing everything else down is easier. It's also not my self defense weapon, nor do I think at my age I'll be going off to war.

[alamogunr]

You mentioned above that most armies carry wheel guns. I believe you are mistaken about that. Most carry autoloaders IMO. Chineese/Russian/English/American all are using 9's(I think-do not keep tabs on them). England used to use the old Webley 45s. wc

I think that was a "tongue in cheek" comment.

[Dframe]

[QUOTE=mike in co;651724]i have one problem with any colt product. some of you are too young, some are too blind.

colt attempted to sell YOUR GUN RIGHTS AWAY to stay in business with the government making m16's and something less to the populace.
yes you will have to do the research....but it happened and anyone spending money on a colt product is supporting a company that does not care about YOUR RIGHTS, the CONSTITUTION, only thier bottom line.

AND Smith & Wesson eagerly signed the conscent decree with the Clinton administration. This was the most draconian pile of bovine excrement in history and the S&W people joined right in. I know I know the company is owned by different people now. I'm still not over it.

[exile]

I shot one of my Glocks tonight and have decided I have an "iron deficiency". I used to have a Sig 226, but I guess that is aluminum. I have fired several Smith and Wesson 3rd generation pistols, a 1076 10mm. which I liked and a Smith and Wesson Tactical model, which I did not (it had an aluminum frame and rang like a bell every time I fired it.) So, I am still pondering what to buy. I am almost tempted to look for a used Sig 220 or 245, but having had one once, I am not sure I want to go there again. I felt the grip on my 226 was too wide, and the trigger reset was too long, at least after shooting Glocks a lot.

Most of all, I am sorry to hear about Kimber's quality being so poor, at least from what is said here. If it was reliable, I think a four inch stainless model would be a good gun. I don't think those have barrel bushings do they?

As far as the military not using revolvers, I read Dick Marcinko's biography, and there were lots of pictures of Navy Seals using Smith and Wesson model 66 .357 magnums. I have a friend in law enforcement and he told me the other day that a lot of SWAT teams are going to a Smith 627 eight shot .357 magnum for the reliabilty and penetration of the .357 magnum revolver.

But, to get back on topic, I appreciate all the input and will continue looking at .45 ACP handguns. Thanks.

exile

[big dale]

I have been using 45s for some time. I have had three 1911 style guns and the only one that was reliable out of the box was made by Norinco back in the mid 80's. The worst was the Longslide by AMT. I enjoyed the short barrelled Ruger Old Model Convertable, but it was always slightly more accurate in the longer cartridge. I have big hands and the Super Blackhawk frame fits me better. The only 45 I have anymore is my Glock and I have had it since last December and I have fired it about 7 thousand rounds and It has never had any kind of problem of any kind.

Big Dale

[9.3X62AL]

Well Al, that popcorn brings up a few problems too. White popcorn, yellow? Buttered? What kind of salt? Sea salt? Too many choices.:kidding:Joe

Hey, I'm in CA--the butter has to be from free-range dairy cattle, and the salt has to be CondorSafe. Gotta represent, ya know?

[exile]

Anybody have any experience with the CZ-97B? I got a chance to fire a EAA Witness in 9mm. the other day. It has always jammed for the owner, but I am a lefty and had no problem with it. Personally, I think the way he shoots it, his thumb is putting the safety on every time it recoils, but he doesn't think so.

As long as we are on the subject, I hate yellow popcorn. Just took a jar of it to my father-in-law last night because I can't stand it. (He likes the stuff.)

What about an H & K USP .45? Not that I could afford one, unless I hit the lottery.

exile

[waksupi]

I'd suggest keeping an eye out for a Sistema (sp) Argentine Colt.

[StarMetal]

Exile, maybe for penetration you should try a 7.62x25 Tokarev. The 357 revolver doesn't have anything on auto's in penetration, just have to pick the right caliber. A 357 Sig will equal or beat a 125 gr in a 357 revolver. The 10mm auto was a bit too much for the FBI, both recoil and penetrations. So I feel you're wrong there.

mike in co, Yeah, well Canada isn't exactly the greatest ally the U.S. has. Much ridicule about or political system comes from them and I don't feel they watch who crosses their border to the U.S. as well as the U.S. So screw Para cause they are made there...right?

wallenba, my 1911's are all tuned also and not that much harder to take down then the normal ones. I don't take them down all the time and you can give a 1911 a cleaning without having to. Same argument as cleaning lever action and the marlin takes down easier then the 94 Winnie. Mention of going off to war was in reference to the empties. If a shooter is worried about where his empties are going his shooting is going to suffer...because whether he will admit it or not he has an eye on where they fly....and that takes away from your concentration. So you shoot where you don't lose empties, or make it so you can find them, and if you mention hunting, so what if you lose a case and get the game you shot at?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Let's quit arguing about this. I'm notoroius for arguing, I will admit. I did say I love all handguns and own quite a few examples of each. The original poster just wants to try a 45 acp and was leaning towards a 1911 for recreational shooting. We easily get off track and I'm a bad offender of that. I didn't mention I have a 45acp revolver too and I enjoy it equally well as my autos. When the first Glock appeared on the market I really hated it. That was until I handled one at a gunshow. Now I own a Model 21 in 45acp and love it. I was amazed at how accurate it is. I mean the thing isn't exactly a tuned match pistol, but yet shoots just about like one. At least mine does. I have large hands so don't have a problem with the Glock, but is is a big handgun and when loaded with the full capacity of 45's it's heavy. It's boxy too. So far those mine has been 100 percent reliable with just about everything I feed it. I do prefer the 1911's over it for feel and looks. I've been looking hard at the XD's, but really think I'd rather have a CZ in 45. I have an old three screw Ruger Blackhawk in 45Colt/45acp. It had the tightest 45acp chambers I've seen on anything including a variety of match 45acp 1911 barrels. In fact I have to pay lots of attention to making reloads for it. This is one where the case length and crimp really will tell if the round will chamber. One thing I think that is cool is to shoot a 45acp revolver right along side an auto loader. See the difference in recoil.

Joe

[mike in co]

ask AL how he likes a cz 97b 45 acp. i have one he shot it. it is my first and other 45acp.
the serial number on mine is under 500...one of the very first production guns in the states. it has a 10 stagered stack mag( not as think as a double stack). a loaded round indicator inline with the frt/rr sites no need to look elswhere to ensure there is a round in the chamber. 4 5/8 bbl. as with all real cz's can be carried cocked and locked. thin chekered wood grips and is a easy shooting gun. for concealed carry the rear site would need some radius work to be anti snag.

a great gun and the price is good...i think in the under $600 area.
i love my 97b, and only got the para 1911 cause i had the "need" for THE 45 acp pistol.

star,
para has done nothing to interfere with my constitutional rights, and sell a gun that supports gun rights, much unlike sw and colt. i read some where that para had completed thier move into the usa, i do not know if they continue to make parts in canada. i do not pick on sw as much as it was during thier english owned period, and since then they seem to be getting back to making guns and not policy.


mike in co

[yondering]

Exile, I was just going to chime in that you should take a look at a CZ or CZ clone. The CZ97 is a little on the large side for my hand, but the Witness 45 fits me well. I haven't owned the 97 but owned a Witness full size in 45 ACP for many years, and regret selling it. It shot very well, low recoil with the steel frame, and held 10+1 rounds.

The CZ (cocked and locked versions) and clones, and the 1911's, are at the top of my list for autoloader pistols, for something that shoots well.

Take a look on Sarco's website, they sell the Rock Island 1911's. They have a couple models with the beavertail grip safety and good sights for a very reasonable price. (You might have to look at their shotgun news ad, it's on their site)

[fusil]

Bonjour,
bought a FEG....Hi-Power copy........because it was cheap.:bigsmyl2:

Paid €100 for it. I think thats about $140. Shoots as good as my range buddy's 1911.

fusil

[StarMetal]

Bonjour,
bought a FEG....Hi-Power copy........because it was cheap.:bigsmyl2:

Paid €100 for it. I think thats about $140. Shoots as good as my range buddy's 1911.

fusil

Can't beat that, great deal, cool pistol.

Joe

[mike in co]

Bonjour,
bought a FEG....Hi-Power copy........because it was cheap.:bigsmyl2:

Paid €100 for it. I think thats about $140. Shoots as good as my range buddy's 1911.

fusil
the feg is a 45ac p ???


i thought the subject was 45acp's......


mike in co

[KCSO]

IF you want a 45 and DON'T want to spen a lot and still get a quality gun you might look for a Rock Island 1911. They are not spendy but shoot well out of the box and hold up well. I have over 2000 duty hollow points through mine now and it is still tight as new. I also have a Smith 1950 that has seen more than a few rounds but I save that for targets over 50 yyears old!

[Crash_Corrigan]

I bought one and took it to the range and with factory hardball {Federal Cheapo}
it went full auto a couple of times.

I took it back to my gun dealer and he gave me a brand new one. Later I checked back and Taurus had to replace the sear and trigger and sent me a letter of apology and a another 8 round magazine.

I have fired over 7K rounds through it since. Mostly my handload of 200 GR LSWC over some Accurate #2 or Bullseye. It has never had a FTF or FTL with any of my loads. A few failures to eject when I forget to put in powder but you cannot blame the gun. Blame me>

Overall the finish is not the best but out of the box I am getting 1.26 " groups at 25 yds with handloads and the trigger is like glass at 3.25#.

I sprang for a blue job and a nice set of grips and this is one fine looking piece of weapon that gets the job done with little fuss.

With my powder puff reloads the brass drops into a pile neatly next to me and women and children have easily mastered this gun and achieve decent scores with little effort.

It is a great gun and I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone.

With full powered self defence loads this gun prints POI at 15 yds but does let you know that your round is going 1150 FPS with a 185 GR Solid Copper Hollow Point.

This gun is a hoot to shoot but I also love my Ruger Blackhawk Convertible in 45 Colt/.45ACP. This revolver with a 255 GR WFNL boolit over some Trailboss powder will give me 1" groups off sandbags at 25 yds and will hit the gong at 100 yds if I do my part.

I love shooting the single action with the huge 45 Colt rounds. I have even tried some blackpowder with it but it is nasty to clean up and gumms up after about 100 rounds of shooting. However the clouds of white smoke do attract a crowd at the firing line. Everybody wants a turn shooting that old 45 Colt.

It has a 4 5/8 barrel on a brass frame with stag grips. It just looks so cool. This is the gun I leave under the seat of the truck when I go out driving around. If that huge boolit can't do the job then I am in deep doo doo.

For your purposes I believe that you cannot go wrong with the Taurus 1911. The newer ones are even coming out in Stainless Steel with grooves for lights and lasers and such.

If they ever come out with a long slide 6" barrel I will get another. For CCW use I kinda hope they try a commander sized version similiar to the one Smith had made in the past.

[exile]

Now you're making me nostalgic. My first pistol was an FEG h-ipower clone in 9mm. Paid too much for it, but I enjoyed shooting it. Great gun.

I really would like to take a look at the CZ 97B. I have mentioned it many times, but my wife lived in the Czech Republic for 10 years. She would love it if I bought a Czech product. However if I bought a Witness copy she would skin me.

In the end though, I will probably buy a 1911. I know I am making too big a deal out of this, but so far, what I own are Glocks, Smiths, and Rugers. Haven't had any problem with those and I know every 1911 is different. Also I keep thinking that with Obama in office, my next gun might be my last. So I want to choose carefully.

It is amazing how many people say that their Norinco 1911 is the best one they have. I had a temp job once, all the guys in the warehouse were shooters and one guy had a Norinco he loved.

Anyway, sorry to drag this out, but the opinions keep coming, so I keep responding.

(This all started with me reading a thread on the virtues of the Smith 625, and since I did not own a .45 I thought I should buy one. But, I already own an N frame Smith so I thought I would give something else a try. My feeling is that someday we might be down to only cast boolits in a pistol and it seems to me the .45 ACP is the best in that category. But as I have said before, the .45 caliber handgun is problematic like few others due to grip size.)

Why did CZ not make a single-stack pistol instead? I am pretty sure that is what Jeff Cooper was after when he contacted them about making a pistol to his specifications. It is a good thing Jeff Cooper is not around to see the mess his country is in now. It would cause him pain.

I have looked at a Springfield XD in .45 ACP and it felt pretty good in my hand. I think I would have to shoot one before I bought it though. They wanted $ 600.00 for it, which I think is pricey for an XD.

Seems the price of Glocks has gone up as well. I think it must be the declining value of the U.S. dollar. My wife has a lot of friends overseas and they all say the dollar is not worth much anymore. I have said it before and will say it again, I fear for our country in the hands of a Communist. I read "The Gulag Archipelago" as a young man, and it scared me. Oops. Off topic.

exile

[exile]

The saga continues. I don't want to bore anyone, but I guess I will take the risk. I visited three different gunshops today and handled about 50 pistols. I really want a 1911. The Kimbers were all outrageously priced. The Springfield Milspec pistols seemed to be the pistols with the best feel for me in my price range. I was not as impressed with the Para-Ordnance pistol this time as last. Probably because I like the looks of the Springield pistols better. I continue to search for just the right pistol.

exile

[exile]

I also looked at a High Standard Crusader Compact pistol (see "Gunblast" article). Some seem to say that these are Armscor pistols made in the Philippines. Others seem to think they may be made in Texas. I confess I did not take that close a look at the pistol yesterday. Anybody own one or fire one?

exile

[exile]

Still trying to decide on which gun to buy. I have always been fascinated by the old 1911's. I might buy a Springfield G.I. model (the one without the lowered and flared ejection port) for the historic looks. For those of you who have one, what does your brass look like once it is fired? Dented, dinged etc.,.? I can put up with some malfunctions due to the fact that this gun will be used for fun, not defense, but a gun that damages my Starline brass will be unusable for me. Any experience with this gun?

exile

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I actually have a Springfield GI-issue M1911A1 I bought several years ago that has yet to be fired!

There were a couple of minor things I wanted to work out before taking it to the range. One is that the slide spring seems to drag a bit when nearly fully compressed, with a noticeable "glitch" when travelling forward. Another is that there are some numbers engraved on the inside of the slide where it rides on the hammer; I wanted to stone this area down a bit to smooth it out before wearing the Parkerizing off the top of the hammer (probably a frivolous and pointless waste of time, but nonetheless...). It probably would shoot just fine if I'd just take it to the range and put a few hundred rounds through it.

Very shortly after I bought the Springfield M1911A1, my Dad surprised me on my birthday with a Colt M1911. This M1911 was made in 1917, and was in use by the US Army until it was sold as "unserviceable" in 1963 to an old friend of the family.

Sometime in the 1930s, the pistol went through an overhaul; the slide and hammer were replaced, the original wood grips were replaced with "Coltwood" plastic grips, and all external surfaces were Parkerized. The barrel is original and quite worn, likely having had hundreds of thousands of military ball ammo fired through it. However, I can still hit a 4" wide x 15" tall "redneck wind chime" target from 90 yards using a two-hand hold five out of seven times with the original GI sights, so it's not due for replacement quite yet, and at the slow rate I'm putting rounds down the barrel it likely won't be needing replacement for quite a while.

Then I inherited my Grandfather's 1939 Colt Government Model M1911A1. Grandpa was a bullseye shooter in the 40's and 50's; reloaded using 3.2gr Bullseye powder and H&G 68 boolits; I still have some of his reloads. I sure wish I had the H&G mold he used. He was a machinist and a tool & die maker; even made a set of .45 ACP reloading dies that I have, and a brass mold that replicates the .45 ball round. I also have the cherry that he made to machine the mold with. Grandpa did some nice work on the sights; the rear notch was widened and he made a wider front sight to fit over the blade. Boolits go right where you expect them to go.

Which brings up an important point; the old GI spec sights make it much more difficult to get a good sight picture. The rear notch is small, and the front sight appears tiny. It takes a good bit longer to acquire/re-acquire your target with such sights than target sights with the wider, deeper notch and wider front blade, and a good bit more practice to achieve decent accuracy.

You might be more happy with a Springfield Gov't Spec or Rock Island for starters. A buddy of mine picked up a Rock Island and seems to be pretty enthusiastic about it - but he's not a handloader.

Brass abuse:
None of the M1911-style pistols that I own (and have actually fired!) have lowered ports, nor do they beat up brass when properly maintained and fed. I did get cases with dented mouths when firing some of my Grandpa's reloads, but they were very light when loaded some 50 years prior; and the pistol itself hadn't been fired in a number of years. I recently put a number of 200gr SWC's (Lyman 452460) lubed with LLA, loaded with some old Winchester K4003P large pistol primers and 4.8gr 700x using CCI cases, and it worked just fine with the rounds I fired. I let a fellow Veteran who spent time in the Navy back in the early 60's load up some magazines and fire it; he got one FTF, but I attributed that to improper magazine loading technique.

I attached a pic of the 1917 M1911 and the 1939 M1911A1. The 1939 came with a rounded backstrap; Grandpa installed the straight one. I still have the original rounded backstrap. They look mighty similar at first glance (except for one is blued and one is Parkerized), but the longer you look, the more differences you'll see.

Note that the M1911A1 trigger is much shorter, and has relief cuts in the frame just rear of the trigger that the M1911 does not have. Notice the different angles of the beavertails. The GI model has a lanyard ring rear of the mag well; the Government Model does not. The angle of the hammers are slightly different.

M1911s each have their own personality, an intriguing and enduring design that's been around for about 100 years. M1911 addicts just can't get enough of them.

I love mine. I wouldn't have a Glock; too boring, plastic and ugly.

[exile]

Thanks so much for the information and the stories, Sierra Whiskey MC. It is posts like this that make this forum so worthwhile and enjoyable, at least to me. People who don't shoot cannot understand how one can appreciate a firearm so much for the history it imparts and the memories it contains. Thanks again.

exile

[shotman]

If you want a good shooter and dont care about looks. Tauras has a nice shooter. I got one for a buddy and It does do a very good job on the paper. It is not picky on the ammo.
Now if you dont care about the finish that looks like a kid done it, and the raddles that would scare a deer off. Is a ok gun

[dsmjon]

If funds are tight, forget the name Kimber.

Rock Island's are decent, and affordable. I've got an officer's model and love it (those come stock w/ bull barrel & reverse guide plug).

One thing to consider with about any 1911 though is hammer bite. If what you're shopping for does not come with a beavertail grip safety, go ahead and plan on getting one (will need 'bobbed' hammer for clearence on the safety as well).

That safety, along with a few bucks toward a good trigger and some stones, along with a few hours polishing parts you WILL have an excellent shooting gun! Sadly though, it becomes addicting just as the rest of the crack pipes we all shoot.

You'll also never go wrong buying a Colt. Just as about anything else that became popular enough to be mimiced, the original 'namesake' will *usually* hold a higher return of investment, if you were to ever sell it down the road.

[softpoint]

S& W 625 if you are just going to have one! No chasing brass, As accurate right out of the box as any 1911 will ever hope to be, even with $$$ worth of mods.
And for an auto for carry, there are other calibers on smaller platforms that are more suited to CCW than .45 acp.
Now, before I get banned, I'll have to admit, I have 4 1911's Ilike 'em too, but if only 1....Yep, 625:mrgreen:

[exile]

Thanks again for the input. It is Saturday in NE, and I am not a football fan, so this keeps me busy.

My ideas change daily, I would like a basic Kimber, but the last one I looked at was $ 779.00. I am leaning toward the Para-Ordnance GI model today, although the Springlield GI model just looks cool.

A thread here on the 625 got me started on this, but I already own a 629 Mountain Gun and the 1911's just feel good in my hands.

I looked at a High Standard with a 3.85 inch barrel the other day that I liked.

Still waiting on funds, reading "The Gun Digest Book of the 1911" and thinking.

Thanks

exile

[The Virginian]

S&W 625 and then get a 1911.

[softpoint]

I guess I'll have to admit...Yes, 625 my first choice if I could only have ONE .45acp. and as well as I like playing with 1911's, if I could only have one .45 and it had to be an auto pistol, it would be a Glock m21
I don't have a m21 right now, I have a m20 (10mm) and I think that would be my "go to" pistol if SHTF., I know ammo is not quite as common ,so I have about 2k rounds loaded.

[Catshooter]

If you want a packable .45, look to the Kahr line.

They can be work sometimes as some have had to shoot it alot and/or send it back to the factory to get it right. But I have one of their PM models in .45 that is amazing.

A .45 that weighs a pound and a half and is the size of a PPKS? They're very accurate, esp for their size. Mine will do less than four inches at 25 yards.


Cat

[exile]

I guess my concealed carry pistol would be my Glock 26 or my NAA Guardian. I am looking for something to play with. My shooting is mostly shooting cans at the farm, so I will probably go with a 1911. Glad you like your Kahr though.

exile

[35remington]

"I can put up with some malfunctions due to the fact that this gun will be used for fun......"

The flared and lowered ejection port is not needed for 100 percent reliability. Anyone that says you must have it or the gun won't be reliable is selling you a bill of goods.

Proper ejection reliability depends, first and foremost, on a properly fitted extractor. Anything else is very, very, very secondary.

Mine don't don't appreciably dent brass, because the extractor's been right. If it's wrong, a lowered and flared port won't help.

The pity about the 1911 is it has been so modified and "smiffed" that many have been brainwashed into thinking we must have these modifications or we're working under some terrible handicap.

Truthfully, many of these mods are to make a profit for the gunsmith or manufacturer, not to improve the gun in any way.

The direction we've taken in magazines considered proper to be used in the 1911 has caused as much harm as good, if not more so. In so doing, we've forgotten how the 1911 was meant to be fed, and it is a less controlled feed design as a result.

As a result, reliability has suffered, because we're trying to make it feed with ammunition it was never designed to feed, especially in overall length, and we're using magazines it was never designed to use that get away from the controlled feed principles it had built into its design.

[exile]

Great info, thanks 35 remington, just what I needed to know.

O.K. here is my next question. The Para Ordnance G.I. pistol looks like a good bet, but from the reading I have been doing it appears that the Para pistols have a ramped barrel and other 1911's do not. Are there any implications with a ramped barrel for reliability, reloading, brass life, use of cast bullets, parts interchangability ect.,. With 1911's without a ramped barrel, is the feed ramp part of the frame or what? Would the ramp on the Para barrel be similar to the ones on my Glocks? [smilie=b: Is it easier to buy aftermarket parts from say, Brownells for a Springfield than a Para?

Sorry to have so many questions, I have just spent my whole life shooting Glocks, so I am ignorant. As I told the guy at the gunshop, buying a Glock is like casual dating, they are all the same. Buying a 1911 is like a marriage proposal, youv'e got to know what you are getting into.

Thanks,

exile

[sleeper1428]

I have two 45's, a Colt Government Model 80 and a ParaOrdanance SS single stack. I've had the Colt for over 20 years and it's always handled every boolit configuration I've ever tried, everything from 170gr SP up to and including 230gr TC and RN and everything inbetween. On the other hand, the Para which is fairly new, gave me some problems at first, mostly because it is so well put together. By that I mean that the slide to frame fit is virtually as tight as you'd get with a custom fitted slide and the chamber is cut to such tight specs that when I first got it the only ammo that would function consistently was factory jacketed RN. But since I'm basically a lead boolit shooter and wanted to use lead in this handgun, in order to get it to work well with lead I had to have it throated to accept my SWC, TC and RN boolits, each seated to the appropriate OAL. My SWC's and TC's are both cast in SAECO and Lee moulds while my RN's are cast in RCBS and Lee moulds.

Bottom line is this - the Para is a beautiful handgun, tightly fitted and finished but as it comes from the factory it is set up to use standard 45ACP ball ammo and due to its very tight chamber cut, does not easily accept or chamber fully most lead boolits. However, just a bit of throating by a competent gunsmith, using your own dummy rounds, will allow this handgun to work well with lead boolits. As far as the full ramp on the Para is concerned, I've not seen a single problem with it so far.

On the other hand, the Colt Government Model 80 is far more forgiving and will accept virtually all boolit shapes, allowing them to chamber completely regardless of OAL without the need for any after market 'throating'. That, of course, was one of the great features of the Colt, its ability to function under battlefield conditions where a very tight fit of slide to frame or a tight chamber could result in jams that could lead to injury or death to the user. However, due to the rather loose fit of slide to frame and the rather generously cut chamber, the Colt is obviously not going to perform on a par with custom fitted weapons when it comes to target accuracy.

sleeper1428

[exile]

Thanks for the information. There is just so much to consider about these 1911's. What would it cost to have the barrel modified to accept cast reloads I wonder?

That seems odd to me. I have a Jarvis barrel for my Glock 17 and it seems to have a tight chamber, but it feeds cast bullets fine (124 grain RNL).

I would like to have a tight chamber to preserve case life, but not so tight that it would not feed. Anybody else see this problem with a Para Ornance gun. (Not doubting your word, just curious)

Thanks,

exile

[sleeper1428]

Guess I need to clarify what I said. The tight chamber is not the problem. It's the fact that the barrel has virtually no throating whatsoever as it comes from the factory which means that once the case mouth comes into contact with the end of the chamber, any portion of a boolit that extends beyond this point and is not beginning to curve due to an ogive will immediately engage the rifling. And if this engagement occurs BEFORE the case mouth reaches the end of the chamber, the cartridge will not seat fully and thus will not allow the slide to go into full battery. This same problem has occurred with many of the after market barrels that are sold for Glocks and many purchasers of these barrels have had to have them throated to allow the use of cast lead boolits seated at normal OAL.

The Para is an excellent handgun and the barrels are match grade. It does, however, have at least one thing in common with most other handguns and that is that the manufacturer states that only factory ammo should be used. However, in the case of the Para, not only do they state that factory ammo should be used, as it turns out factory ammo is about ALL you CAN use unless you are willing to reload only FMJ RN ammo or, alternatively, seat all your boolits deeply enough to allow the case to fully seat in the chamber before the boolit engages the rifling. And since seating boolits deeper than normal may well lead to some drastic increases in pressure, this may not be the wisest, or safest, solution to the problem. In the case of my Para, I simply chose to have the barrel throated to accommodate the boolit designs that I cast for the 45ACP and seat at the OAL that appears to work best in my handgun.

sleeper1428


Thanks for the information. There is just so much to consider about these 1911's. What would it cost to have the barrel modified to accept cast reloads I wonder?

That seems odd to me. I have a Jarvis barrel for my Glock 17 and it seems to have a tight chamber, but it feeds cast bullets fine (124 grain RNL).

I would like to have a tight chamber to preserve case life, but not so tight that it would not feed. Anybody else see this problem with a Para Ornance gun. (Not doubting your word, just curious)

Thanks,

exile

[exile]

I am ashamed to admit that I do not know what "throating" is. I have two Glock aftermarket barrels and they do not have this probleim, whatever it is. I guess I have been lucky.

I can honestly say I have spent more time trying to decide which 1911 to buy than I spent deciding what to major in in college and whether to propose to my wife combined. I guess in both those cases I knew a good thing when I saw one. That is definately not the case here. The more I learn the more confused I become. [smilie=b:

Some people say that with the state of the world, you should not pray about such trivialities, but our finances being what they are, I do. So, I'm sure it will all work out in the end.

Our prayers go out to all on the forum who have real problems, such as the loss of a loved one.

Thanks again for the information.

exile

[sleeper1428]

I am ashamed to admit that I do not know what "throating" is. I have two Glock aftermarket barrels and they do not have this probleim, whatever it is. I guess I have been lucky.

The throat is that portion of the barrel between the end of the chamber and the beginning of the rifling. 'Throating' is simply a term that is often used to describe what is done when a short portion of the rifling immediately abutting the end of the chamber is reshaped to allow a boolit to seat completely without being fully engaged in the rifling. Here is an excerpt that explains it a bit better:

"The task of seating the projectile into the rifling is handled by the throat of the chamber. Next is the freebore, which is the portion of the throat down which the projectile travels before the rifling starts. The last section of the throat is the throat angle, where the throat transitions into the rifled barrel.

The throat is usually sized slightly larger than the projectile, so the loaded cartridge can be inserted and removed easily, but the throat should be as close as practical to the groove diameter of the barrel. Upon firing, the projectile expands under the pressure from the chamber, and obturates to fit the throat. The bullet then travels down the throat and engages the rifling, where it is engraved, and begins to spin. Engraving the projectile requires a significant amount of force, and in some firearms there is a significant amount of freebore, which helps keep chamber pressures low by allowing the propellant gases to expand before being required to engrave the projectile. Best accuracy, however, is typically provided with a minimum of freebore, maximizing the chances that the projectile will enter the rifling without distortion."

Also, you might want to go the following site where there are some good diagrams that also explain the concept of the 'throat' and what 'throating' is all about. This site is actually for rifle shooting but the same concepts apply to the throats in handguns.

www.mountainmolds.com/helpRifle.htm

Hope this clears things up for you. And I'm happy to hear that you've had no problems with your reloads in your aftermarket Glock barrels. Personally, I've had to return my 10mm aftermarket barrel for some moderate 'throating' while my aftermarket 40S&W barrel works just fine with all my lead boolit reloads.

sleeper1428

[exile]

Thanks. That does make sense.

exile

[exile]

I just read on another forum that Para Ordnance frames and slides are cast. I used to own a High Power copy with a cast frame and have no problem with that but a cast slide seems like it may not be a good idea. I also hear that they are the only company that makes a cast SLIDE.

I am just about convinced that there is no safe bet with a 1911, at least not one that I can afford. Right now I would choose either a Springfield GI model or save up some more and go with a Kimber.

The frustration continues.[smilie=b:

exile

[softpoint]

I wouldn't be afraid of a Para, When I owned my public shooting range, we had practice ranges set up for IPSC shooters, and held their local matches here once a month. Many of the guys that couldn't afford STI, or SVI high end race guns shot either Para P14 .45's or P16 40's And they shot the heck out them too, and had no major problems with them. Some of them were surprisingly accurate, too , right out of the box.

[exile]

Thanks,

exile

[mike in co]

see i told you to buy the para gi expert.....
low cost great quality....1911 style.....comes with 2 8rd, gi 7 fit flush,and 10's are usable.

mike in co

[exile]

I took another :roll: trip to the gunshop today. Because of my love for the original WWII 1911's, which I will never be able to afford, I have just about decided to buy the Springfield GI model with the tiny sights and the non-lowered ejection port. We shall see.

exile

[S.R.Custom]

I took another :roll: trip to the gunshop today. Because of my love for the original WWII 1911's, which I will never be able to afford, I have just about decided to buy the Springfield GI model with the tiny sights and the non-lowered ejection port.

Having owned a number of entry level 1911s over the years --including the likes of Taurus, Para, Springfield Armory, IAI, and RIA-- I think you're more likely to be satisfied out of the box with the Springfield. Just keep in mind that because these are entry level guns, they don't get a lot of individual fitment in the manufacturing process. As with with any 'affordable' gun, you'll likely have to "go through it" to clean out all the burrs and trash and maybe polish a mating surface or two for the gun to feel and function just right. But that's OK. The experience is good for you.

And don't worry about the micro sights. Match Bullseye shooters notwithstanding, those sights seemed to suit everyone just fine for 80 years until the craze to start hanging a bunch of crap off these guns hit in the '90s. I fooled around with all the gizmos for more years than I care to admit, and ultimately came to the conclusion that the mil-spec configuration is the best for utility and overall reliability. (Gee, maybe JMB wasn't such an idiot after all. :wink:)

[sleeper1428]

Having owned a number of entry level 1911s over the years --including the likes of Taurus, Para, Springfield Armory, IAI, and RIA-- I think you're more likely to be satisfied out of the box with the Springfield. Just keep in mind that because these are entry level guns, they don't get a lot of individual fitment in the manufacturing process. As with with any 'affordable' gun, you'll likely have to "go through it" to clean out all the burrs and trash and maybe polish a mating surface or two for the gun to feel and function just right. But that's OK. The experience is good for you.

I just wanted to emphasize that while these entry level guns may well not get a lot of individual fitment, if you should elect to purchase one of their somewhat more expensive models you will indeed find that the fit and finish will be much more carefully done. My Para, a PX745S GR single stack, has a slide to frame fit that is as tight and well fitted as many custom pistols that I've had an opportunity to shoot in the past. And the barrel is indeed match grade with a chamber cut precisely to specs, so much so that I had to have it throated slightly to conform to the lead boolit configuration of my castings. So as far as I can tell, it's pretty much the same old story - 'You get what you pay for'.

sleeper1428

[Dale53]

I have not read all of the posts in this long thread. I have two custom "built up" 1911's that I used in my IPSC days. I also have a recent Kimber Ultra CDP II (with 3" barrel).

If I had limited funds, I would definitely suggest the Taurus 1911. It has all forged parts, is closely machined, has nearly all of the parts I paid dearly to have installed on my custom guns for a fraction of the price. I have shot one of these and I was extremely impressed with the sheer value of it. The NRA tested these and they came off very highly rated. I don't believe a feller or gal can go wrong with this choice. It has a top notch choice in sights and all the bells and whistles that'll keep a shooter happy in the coming years.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=59&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=19

I am happy with my Customs but I would definitely go with the Taurus these days.

Dale53

[exile]

Good points all. I am not very handy with tools, but I might be willing to give it a try. When I pick up the Springfield GI model, it seems to sit lower in my hand than others, especially the Kimber. I don't know why. I like that a lot.

A friend of mine has a Taurus .22 magnum snubby which I have shot, and it seems to be full of grit of some sort. It seems to me that a gun should leave the factory with a minimum of cleaning in the internals at least.

I don't mean to keep this going forever, but does anyone know if the Springfileld pistols produced in Brazil contain any MIM parts. Not a big deal if they do, just curious.

I live close enough to an excellent pistolsmith to spit, so if there is major trouble I guess I could take it to him, but I must admit that the ability to do basic maintenance on a 1911 intrigues me.

Thanks for all the excellent responses, being retired, this forum keeps me entertained. Thanks again. [smilie=w:

[Catshooter]

exile,

I live in south eastern South Dakota. If whatever you end up with needs a little TLC and/or you'd like to learn how to do that TLC on your own, PM me.

No charge, just do it for the fun of it.


Cat

[exile]

Thanks so much for that generous offer. I will definately keep it in mind.

exile