OAL Varying on Lee Turret

[Trinot]

Howdy all,

I know this is my first post but I have been lurking here for a while.

So,

Today I go to load some 9mm. I switch to my 9mm turret and start to reload, doing my normal checks I check the OAL. The OAL is off, so I adjust it. However the OAL was not responding properly, seemed like my changes were not giving any results. Well, I finally got it set. The thing is the OAL is varying from round to round. I will get a string of several that are the same length like I am used to and then 1 will be off in the 0.0X spot. I thought maybe it was the boolits, but that doesn't affect OAL length does it, ie if one boolit was a bit longer than the next it would just be seated deeper? I checked my turret press out, everything seems to be tight and just like it always is (I just took my 45 dies off and they where working just fine). [smilie=b:[smilie=b:

I just loaded 10 rounds and here are the measurements I got off of them
1.156 , 1.155 ,1.156 ,1.139, 1.155, 1.156, 1.155, 1.153, 1.156, 1.141

Does anyone have any ideas about what might be causing this?

Thanks in advance!

[Trinot]

Here let me post measurements up from more that I loaded
1.157, 1.157, 1.144, 1.141, 1.136, 1.144, 1.158, 1.136, 1.152, 1.154, 1.152, 1.138, 1.139, 1.157

These measurements as well as the ones before where not taken in order.

[38-55]

Trinot,
What your problem ( if it is a problem ) is more than likely the bullets varying in shape at the ogive.. .019 is not that much of problem if you ask me.. How ever with that said in a 9mm if you are working with max loads it could be an issue.. You did not mention your brass either but I've found there to be alot of variation in 9mm brass.. could be the internal taper/thinness of the brass effecting things.. The real question is do they shoot/function well ?
Stay safe
Calvin
PS you could try and screwing your seater die down til it's just off the plate and see if that helps.. if the seater is screwed out to far it can sometimes allow the bullet to 'cock' and seat oddly.. just an after thought for ya.. plus a seater plug that matches you bullet can help too...

[Bill*]

If the shorter OALs are the last ones you assembled, you are building up crud in the die. Otherwise, I would guess "sumfins loose".

[Trinot]

If the shorter OALs are the last ones you assembled, you are building up crud in the die. Otherwise, I would guess "sumfins loose".

They aren't the last ones I loaded. I just loaded 2 more both where 1.156 so I said well maybe it has fixed itself. Loaded 7 more and got 1.156, 1.156, 1.142, 1.142, 1.156, 1.156, 1.160. I ran the 1.160 back through the seating and fcd dies and it was 1.156 after that.

So it isn't crud build up, what might be loose?

[Trinot]

Well I thought maybe the handle was loose. I tightened it super tight and got
1.136,1.136,1.142,1.138,1.138,1.​136,1.136,1.136,1 .156


Well I just did 10 more incase that 1.156 was a fluke, and this time these are listed in the order I loaded them

1.142,1.142,1.142,1.154,1.142,1.​137,1.153,1.157,1 .157,1.157

Any ideas on what I need to tighten? Could it be a problem with my boolits?

Just pulled some boolits from some 9mm rounds I already had here that I had loaded that I had no OAL problems with. This did not solve my problem
1.146,1.142,1.136,1.140,1.138 from them

[Heavy lead]

Trinot,
What your problem ( if it is a problem ) is more than likely the bullets varying in shape at the ogive.. .019 is not that much of problem if you ask me.. How ever with that said in a 9mm if you are working with max loads it could be an issue.. You did not mention your brass either but I've found there to be alot of variation in 9mm brass.. could be the internal taper/thinness of the brass effecting things.. The real question is do they shoot/function well ?
Stay safe
Calvin
PS you could try and screwing your seater die down til it's just off the plate and see if that helps.. if the seater is screwed out to far it can sometimes allow the bullet to 'cock' and seat oddly.. just an after thought for ya.. plus a seater plug that matches you bullet can help too...

As I was reading your thread starter trinot, I was thinking the same thought 38-55 here has. What boolit are you using? The ogive or even a truncated cone of a boolit (or bullet) if not absolutely perfect can easily give you this much difference in oal.
If you have a single stage, set the sizer up in it and seat a few and see if the same variance in oal happens. If it does and the ammunition runs and shoots fine, don't sweat it.

[badgeredd]

Trinot,
What your problem ( if it is a problem ) is more than likely the bullets varying in shape at the ogive.. .019 is not that much of problem if you ask me.. How ever with that said in a 9mm if you are working with max loads it could be an issue.. You did not mention your brass either but I've found there to be alot of variation in 9mm brass.. could be the internal taper/thinness of the brass effecting things.. The real question is do they shoot/function well ?
Stay safe
Calvin
PS you could try and screwing your seater die down til it's just off the plate and see if that helps.. if the seater is screwed out to far it can sometimes allow the bullet to 'cock' and seat oddly.. just an after thought for ya.. plus a seater plug that matches you bullet can help too...

trinot,

I'm guessing that 38-55 is right on with the mention of the ogive formation or you're cocking the boolit ever so slightly. I have a Classic Turret and load 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 38 SP/357 Mag and haven't had the problem you're describing, BUT I was able to get the variance when I tried to intentionally sit the boolit slightly tipped. Maybe coat the tops of a few boolits with something that would leave a witness marking to see if your seating plug is really pushing your boolit in straight. Beyond that, you have got me!:sad:

Edd

[Trinot]

I don't know how I didn't see 38-55's post, I must have overlooked it 5 times.

Yes I am using 2 Ogive radius boolits. But the thing is, I didn't have this problem with the last batch I reloaded. So I pulled some of the boolits from the last batch and I used them, and I am still having the same problem.

Also, I tested the brass thinking it might be that. It is not the brass, I isolated all PMC brass, all Win brass, and all Blazer brass and all 3 of them still gave the same variations on OAL.

[Trinot]

Okay, I tried adjusting the seating die. That didn't help.

I tried increasing the bell a bit, and making sure the boolit was exactly straight up when going into the die, still didn't help.

Can you maybe explain a bit to me more about how the ogive radius can affect OAL? I thought the boolit didn't change OAL? Also, when you say max load do you mean max powder load, because I am at 3.7 and max is 4.0. I could back off some on the powder load if that could possibly be the problem?

[markinalpine]

I was having a hell of a time with the same problem seating 230 gr 45 ACP boolits. Cleaned the lube out of the LEE seating plug through the bottom of the die using turpentine on a cloth over a wooden dowel I had whittled to fit the plug cavity, so I wouldn't have to tear the die all the way down and change the setting. It turned out that somehow lube had worked its way between the plug and the adjusting knob!
So I learned my lesson and just take the thing ALL the way apart, clean it up, and spend the extra 30 seconds to get it readjusted.

Mark

[Trinot]

I took it apart cleaned it and put it back together (the seating die) and still the problem persists.

Oh yah, the cup on the seating die that cups the boolit fits my boolit rather well. So I don't think that is the problem either.

[largom]

TRINOT, Look at your loaded rounds and see if the seating stem is marking the tip or sides of your boolits. If so your seating stem does not match your boolit ogive and this will cause various OAL's.
Larry

[Trinot]

TRINOT, Look at your loaded rounds and see if the seating stem is marking the tip or sides of your boolits. If so your seating stem does not match your boolit ogive and this will cause various OAL's.
Larry

The thing is I did not have this problem with the last 800 or so I loaded with these dies.

I just put my 45 dies back on the press, loaded a test batch, all of them had the exact same OAL. So it must be a problem with the 9mm dies, but where.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I had a similar experience back in the day when I used Lee’s LA to lube my boolits. The lube would build up in the die causing the boolits to seat deeper and deeper. Cleaning the die frequently worked, until I bought an RCBS lube-matic 2.

[Trinot]

Okay guys maybe I am worrying about something I shouldn't worry about.

I went back and looked at a box I had loaded in the past. It looks like they also vary as well. I just must have not noticed it because I always check the first 5 or 10 and random ones and I just must have not stumbled across it before. It seems as though the vast majority of them are right now but they vary occasionally. Is there something that causes this, or is this just something I should just live with since they are varying so little.

1.152, 1.155, 1.152, 1.152, 1.155, 1.158,1.150,1.150,1.150,1.160,1.152

[utk]

Boolit seating force vs. turret plate tilt?
A hard seating boolit might tilt the turret plate to its full stop in the ring while less seating force maybe doesn't every time? Try using the crimping function in the seating die and skip the fcd (if you're using it).

[markinalpine]

AAARGH! Just remembered. [smilie=b:
I got some lube on my caliper jaws once, and had variences I couldn't figure out for the life of me. Only when I closed the calipers all the way, and the jaws stuck together, did it finally dawn on me what was wrong. :groner:

Mark :killingpc

(Man, I just love the smilies on this forum)

* Remember Horshack on Welcome Back Kotter?

[38-55]

Trinot,
Heed markinalpine's words on the calipers ( if that is what your using )...Remember 'dirt has dimension'.... As to the rounds.. here's a test for ya..take the 'worst' and the 'best' ( in your mind ) and mix em' up,load in your pistola and see if you can tell the difference. Let me know if there is a problem that you can discern. I'm not trying to be flippant... just trying to get you to not waste time worrying about stuff that I spent waaaaayyy to much time fretting over in the past.
To me reloading/casting/shooting is 'supposed' to be fun not an exercise in futility.... Some day when I have lots-o-time I write a book on how I learned that little bit of wisdom..
Stay safe
Calvin
PS as to your question about the ogive.. if it varies or is lopsided it will contact the seater plug differently thus causing anomalies in seating.. either in depth or concentricy..

[Wayne Smith]

Did you cast these boolits? I was sizing some of MiHec 44/444 boolits with loose gas checks and, lo and behold, I got a few with tight gas checks! Sure enough, I had a spot of lead on the inside of the mold and the last few boolits cast were bigger. Sizing the boolit does not change the diameter of the nose. If some of your noses were smaller they contacted the seating pin later and were seated higher.

[bchannell]

I would bet that if you loaded some rounds on a single station press that you would have the same dimensional inconsistency. I've always found that it is really hard to measure COL accurately. Bullets differ so much and it is even more noticable in rifle bullets. You can buy adapters for your calipers that measure from the ogive, but in my experience, you got good advise above. Mix up your rounds using the worst offenders and see if you can tell a difference. I don't mean to be obstinate but, I've yet to see a 9mm that it would make that much difference in. If you were talking a custom 22BR rifle, then you might, (and I say MIGHT) have something to look into.
Good Luck!

[myg30]

I have the same OAL variance with my SDB. It seems that when I set it up for a new cal.,I only advance it with ONE Case on the plate, set my seater or crimper. NOW when I go to load and have a full plate with 4 rds on it the OAL changes like yours does. Someone above mensioned that the tilt in the plate can make the difference as well as all the other suggestions posted. It really sucks when different load books have data with different oal's .005-.010 and some .025 differences it makes you pull your hair out if ya let it.
THE TEST >>> Take your cailper and measure one of your hairs you pulled out, then a pice of paper ! When you see the size of them you'll realize that you are worring about almost nothing and how LITTLE it really is !!
Again as said before if they shoot dont worry about it too much. I just make sure
that the SHORTEST one is above MIN OAL, and the longest one feeds.


Good luck, be safe. Hope this helped.

Mike

[outdoorfan]

I wouldn't worry about it. Those #'s don't look too bad.

I've had factory bullets regularly vary by up to .005 (sometimes more) when having seated them in the case and checked OAL. My rifle boolits typically stay within .001-002.

[DLCTEX]

To eliminate the possibility of tilt of the turret contributing to your problem you could use a spring (1911 recoil spring works well) placed around the turning shaft. cut it to lift the turret against the stops when the turret has turned far enough to engage the lugs. Lift it any earlier and it will push the turret out. I have never had a problem with tilt, but read this fix on this forum.

[TAWILDCATT]

you spend to much time worrying about OAL.the turret raises up a hair but all around.your problem is the *** calipers no doubt use micromiter.and dont squeeze down to much.could also be any effort to seat WILL crush the bullet.all the OAL should be used for so you dont seat to deep for the powder and so the cartridge fits the mag or cylinder.I dont know what my OAL is and I shot compitition for 30yrs.I had anuf trophys and medals.:coffeecom

[Trinot]

Well, it seems that most of my rounds OAL is right on, thats why I never noticed this before. I took random samples as I was loading and I didn't stumble across a round that was off until I had loaded about 500.

No I do not size the boolits.

I DID notice that the turret tips slightly sometimes, but I tested a boolit that came out when it tipped and the OAL was right on.

I also on purpose tilted the boolit sideways going in to the seating die, the OAL was dead on though so I don't think this is the cause either.

I still thinking something has to be off though, either that or 9mm is harder to make consistent OAL than 45? I say this because my 45's are spot on OAL varying only in the .00x spot and usually only by 1 .

Not sure if you are saying all calipers are junk or mine are junk but either way, mine aren't junk and I believe they are very accurate (Kobalt)

[utk]

I DID notice that the turret tips slightly sometimes, but I tested a boolit that came out when it tipped and the OAL was right on.


Did you compare it to a case that DID NOT tip the turret? (You said it tips slightly sometimes).

[Trinot]

Did you compare it to a case that DID NOT tip the turret? (You said it tips slightly sometimes).

Yes, the variation is not coming from the tipping of the turret.

[utk]

Ok, then I don't have to worry about THAT possibility. Actually, I seldom check my rounds...

Just went and measured 10 (ten) 9mm rounds made by a friend of me in his single stage rcbs press with rcbs dies: they varied .0047" in length. Jacketed TC bullets. 3 or 4 were spot on, one was .0047 longer and the others were in between...