Crimping 45ACP

[Flatlander]

One of our local gun shops was moving and I bought a couple of bags of FMJ bullets (230 gr 45ACP) to try them out. The problem I have is even when crimped some of the bullets will still push fairly easily into the case. I adjusted the crimper to the point where it actually indents the base of the bullet but even then they move on me. Some seem to be OK but others have moved while test shooting. I fire one shot and then look at the next shell in the magazine to see if the recoil shortened the next round, some have. They measured to be .452 in diameter so they are not smaller, the only thing that comes to my tiny brain is these are smooth and slippery and have no lube grooves for the shell case to adhere too. Anybody have the same experience? I am ready to disassemble 400 rounds and melt the lead out of them.

[kawalekm]

Hi FL
What kind of die set are you using? Does it make a roll crimp? I had a problem with lockup after rounds fed into the chamber of my 1911. That was using a Lee die set that was supposed to have a "modified taper crimp". I got this Hornady taper crimper
that solved my problem.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=531998

It's only 19$ and may be the answer to your problem too.
Good luck,
Michael

[HammerMTB]

It sounds like you are using the roll crimp made into the seating die. For .45 ACP (and really for all semi-auto straight wall cases that headspace on the case mouth) you should use a taper crimp die. It will entail a separate operation in the reloading routine. That makes little difference to me, as on a progressive it simply means adjusting the die and allowing it to happen.
If you're loading j-word boolits, you can also back off the case bell-mouth. This will add a small bit of tension. It also aids case life, to work the brass less.

[HeavyMetal]

I have had this experience.

Because I set my expander plug up for cast lead the plug was actually large than needed for Jacketed bullets.

If you have a Lee "Universal" expander die use this to flare the case mouth after sizeing and do not use an expander plug of any kind!

This will leave the case very tightly sized, please be aware you may have to sort brass my headstamp as some case's are thicker than others.

Once you've figured out which headstamp works best for you, size, flare and then load as usual. This technique should also remove the need for excess crimp.

In my case I found that using just enough crimp to straighten out the case mouth worked just right!

[BlueSmoke]

It sounds like you brass is not being sized to correct dimensions.

The bullet should fit tight with out any crimp.

Regards,

BlueSmoke

[theperfessor]

Trying to roll crimp into a hard jacketed bullet will actually bulge the case and DECREASE neck tension - and the more crimp you put on the worse it gets.

Need to use a smaller diameter expander plug for more interference between bullet and case mouth. Only run plug in deep enough so that bottom of plug is at same depth as bullet base, creating a "shelf" to impede bullet from telescoping into case. Taper crimp just enough to turn in any flare, no more. May have to use a smaller diameter expander plug (such as a .44) in separate operation for flaring prior to bullet seating.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

What brand of brass are you using? Some brass has thinner walls than others. If you've reloaded the brass a number of times, it might be worn.

What is the outside diameter of your cases after sizing? Your sizing die might be worn.

[Cloudpeak]

I've chucked a couple of expander plug stems in a drill press and reduced the diameter until dummy rounds no longer suffer setback after 6 or 7 chamberings from slide lock.

[Echo]

+1 for BlueSmoke. Your expander/beller is expanding the case too much. So, +1 for Cloudpeak. Measure the diameter of the expander plug. I just measured one, and it is .450.
And +1 for SierraWhisky - I can't use Rem brass for my .45 reloads. Their brass is too thin, and springy, for my setup. I have your problem when I try the Rems. I taper crimp, but before I got my taper crimp die I roll crimped only enough to turn in the bell flare.
So. I think we have covered it.

[UweJ]

+1 on the above,the expander plug is doing to much.Expand and flare only as much as is needed then taper crimp.
Uwe

[Flatlander]

Wow! All this stuff I never thought of:
First I shoot mixed brass so that might account for some of the problem.
I will seperate by brand to find those that don't work.
My Lee die sets are fairly new, I bought a Lee Factory taper crimp die and use that as a seperate operation in addition to the standard die set of three.

The outside diameter of a random sample of cases is about .470 at mouth.
The inside diameter at the mouth ranges from .447 to .450.
I bell mouth the cases so the bullet just starts, you have to hit it just right to start seating.

I thought you could not use a roll crimp die on Pistol rounds because the round headspaces on the case mouth.

[fredj338]

+1 for BlueSmoke. Your expander/beller is expanding the case too much. So, +1 for Cloudpeak. Measure the diameter of the expander plug. I just measured one, and it is .450.
And +1 for SierraWhisky - I can't use Rem brass for my .45 reloads. Their brass is too thin, and springy, for my setup. I have your problem when I try the Rems. I taper crimp, but before I got my taper crimp die I roll crimped only enough to turn in the bell flare.
So. I think we have covered it.

Exactly how I roll. I found RP brass almost useless for loading jacketed ammo, I reserve it for 0.452" lead. The expander body should be no larger than 0.450", slightly less is better. You can polish it down in a drill press or lathe or even by hand w/ 400g paper. Your sizing die may also be just slightly out of spec, does happen.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Separating your brass by brand is a very good idea.
Military surplus brass I separate by armory and year of manufacture.
Note that CCI Blazer Brass cases have more internal volume than other brands due to how they are made. I never mix them with other brands.

I have a couple of different die sets I use for .45 ACP; an RCBS carbide set, and a set that my Granddad made back in the 40's. Granddad's sizer die is tighter than the RCBS die, so it works well with Remington brass. I use the RCBS set for most everything else.

[yondering]

My Lee die sets are fairly new, I bought a Lee Factory taper crimp die and use that as a seperate operation in addition to the standard die set of three.


No! Throw that piece of garbage factory crimp die away. The bottleneck rifle factory crimp dies are good, but the pistol dies are worse than useless. They size down the outside of the case, which results in the brass springing back more than the lead bullet.

Your Lee seater die has a taper crimp feature built in. In fact, I think all modern 45 ACP dies taper crimp; I don't think there are any made any more that roll crimp.

Just use the seater die to taper crimp, and only enough crimp to remove the flare in the case mouth. Do not put too much crimp on your cases, it will not help. Neck tension of the brass should be sufficient to prevent bullet setback. If not, you have a large expander plug, or work hardened brass. Extra crimp is just a band-aid to mask those problems.

[mpmarty]

+1 on what Yondering said. Dump all LEE Factory Crimp Dies that are for pistol cartridges. They are indeed worse than useless. The collet FCDs for bottle neck cases work very well. I don't know what LEE was thinking (or smoking) when they came out with that stupid straight wall FCD.

[whisler]

A friend had "push-back" problems with nickel-plated .45 ACP cases that cost him a barrel. No problems with normal brass cases. Were the problem cases nickel-plated, by chance?

[wallenba]

Hi FL
What kind of die set are you using? Does it make a roll crimp? I had a problem with lockup after rounds fed into the chamber of my 1911. That was using a Lee die set that was supposed to have a "modified taper crimp". I got this Hornady taper crimper
that solved my problem.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=531998

It's only 19$ and may be the answer to your problem too.
Good luck,
Michael

I had the same problem, solved it the same way.:wink:

[Flatlander]

First thank you for all the replies!
Most of the "problem brass" was R&P and I found that other people have had the same problem with this brass. Cases marked TZZ and "I" were next.

I measured my expander plug which is tapered of course. The front measured .4485 and the center or middle diameter was .450 and the top end was .462.

I do not normally load FMJ, usally I cast LRN which is .452 and as previously stated I have had no problems with cast lead.

Perhaps the brass giving me the problems is a bit longer and the expander/beller went deeper causing my problems. I measured the cases and they seemed to be about .003 longer than the norm.

As to the comment about CCI cases having more volume how would that have an effect if I am loading a specific amount of grains to each case? I could see if I was filling them to the top but of course I am not.

Out of 400 rounds I found 15 that I had to scrap. I have come to the conclusion that it was a combination of brass thickness and length that caused my expander to set deeper.

From now on I will stick with lead!

[MtGun44]

The disadvantage to roll crimping is that case length is critical. For taper crimping,
case length is far less critical. Mixed range brass is almost guaranteed to cause
inconsistent roll crimping due to case length variation and case wall thickness variation.
Trimming is not practical since I have NEVER ever seen a single .45 ACP case that
reached "trim length".

MANY have had very negative results with Lee PISTOL factory crimp dies, which have
no commonality with the excellent Lee RIFLE factory crimp die which works in an
entirely different way.

In my experience R-P .45 ACP has significantly thinner case neck wall than other brands.
However, with a good TC, no problems are now encountered with my huge
collection of mismatch brass.

You should have good case neck tension to start with, but a good taper crimp will
help a lot.

Set the taper crimp die - separate operation, NOT with boolit/bullet seating - to
push the brass about half the thickness into the boolit, it will be a bit less most
of the time with jacketed.

I've been doing this, teaching it and advising at my IPSC club for 30 yrs. Save yourself
some trouble and TC with a separate die. This is the biggest single issue with loading
the otherwise super easy .45 ACP. The second biggest is setting LOA due to the
ultra tight match chambers with near zero throat (ball seat) in some barrels.

Bill

[StarMetal]

The disadvantage to roll crimping is that case length is critical. For taper crimping,
case length is far less critical. Mixed range brass is almost guaranteed to cause
inconsistent roll crimping due to case length variation and case wall thickness variation.
Trimming is not practical since I have NEVER ever seen a single .45 ACP case that
reached "trim length".

MANY have had very negative results with Lee PISTOL factory crimp dies, which have
no commonality with the excellent Lee RIFLE factory crimp die which works in an
entirely different way.

In my experience R-P .45 ACP has significantly thinner case neck wall than other brands.
However, with a good TC, no problems are now encountered with my huge
collection of mismatch brass.

You should have good case neck tension to start with, but a good taper crimp will
help a lot.

Set the taper crimp die - separate operation, NOT with boolit/bullet seating - to
push the brass about half the thickness into the boolit, it will be a bit less most
of the time with jacketed.

I've been doing this, teaching it and advising at my IPSC club for 30 yrs. Save yourself
some trouble and TC with a separate die. This is the biggest single issue with loading
the otherwise super easy .45 ACP. The second biggest is setting LOA due to the
ultra tight match chambers with near zero throat (ball seat) in some barrels.

Bill

You're dead on the Lee factory crimp dies. The rifle ones operate totally different. There is one exception...the one for the 30Luger/Mauser/Tokarev really works.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Well here we go again on the roll crimp versus the taper crimp. I've been roll crimping for way over 30 years. I build and tune my own match 1911's. I'll challenge any of you with my roll crimps and your taper crimps. NRA proved that myth wrong in their cast bullet book. The proper roll crimp out shot the taper crimp. That's not to say the taper crimp is totally useless. It will make ammo better then most of you can shoot it. Tired of hearing about you HAVE to taper crimp a 45acp because it headspaces on the case mouth. If you don't know the truth about that I'm not wasting time re-explaining it here. The factory doesn't roll crimp because for one the components are new and bullet fit is tight.

TZZ cases are Israeli and among the best.

Joe

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

As to the comment about CCI cases having more volume how would that have an effect if I am loading a specific amount of grains to each case? I could see if I was filling them to the top but of course I am not.

Any time you change a variable in a load, it can affect the chamber pressure and/or pressure curve, sometimes with disastrous results.

For example, if you worked up a "hot" load using CCI cases, and then switched to another brand of cases that had less internal capacity, your chamber pressures could unexpectedly "spike", possibly causing damage to your firearm and perhaps yourself as well.

If you are loading low-velocity "plinking" rounds, this is far less of an issue; you're basically at a "starter" load anyway. But don't expect to get great accuracy if you're mixing in a bunch of different components.

The more consistent you are, along with the consistency of the components you use, the better results you'll get from your reloads.

[Flatlander]

Well here we go again on the roll crimp versus the taper crimp. I've been roll crimping for way over 30 years. I build and tune my own match 1911's. I'll challenge any of you with my roll crimps and your taper crimps. NRA proved that myth wrong in their cast bullet book. The proper roll crimp out shot the taper crimp. That's not to say the taper crimp is totally useless. It will make ammo better then most of you can shoot it. Tired of hearing about you HAVE to taper crimp a 45acp because it headspaces on the case mouth. If you don't know the truth about that I'm not wasting time re-explaining it here. The factory doesn't roll crimp because for one the components are new and bullet fit is tight

I have never even seen a roll crimp die let alone used one! So don't assume that I am not willing to learn or listen to someone who has some experience. The only round I have ever loaded is the 45 ACP, its supposed to be the easiest. (At least thats what I have read). The only reason I ask questions is because I do not understand.

[wallenba]

I have never even seen a roll crimp die let alone used one! So don't assume that I am not willing to learn or listen to someone who has some experience. The only round I have ever loaded is the 45 ACP, its supposed to be the easiest. (At least thats what I have read). The only reason I ask questions is because I do not understand.

Curious about this a while back, I took a few of the 200 SWC's that were loaded for my 625 crimped with a Redding profile crimp and fed them to my 1911. Not a problem at all. Then used it after my taper crimp on 230 RN's just enough to smooth over the case mouth a bit. Fed real well, not enough testing to see how much difference, but it does"fair" the case down to the boolit without compromising the chamber fit.

[geargnasher]

Well here we go again on the roll crimp versus the taper crimp. I've been roll crimping for way over 30 years. I build and tune my own match 1911's. I'll challenge any of you with my roll crimps and your taper crimps. NRA proved that myth wrong in their cast bullet book. The proper roll crimp out shot the taper crimp. That's not to say the taper crimp is totally useless. It will make ammo better then most of you can shoot it. Tired of hearing about you HAVE to taper crimp a 45acp because it headspaces on the case mouth. If you don't know the truth about that I'm not wasting time re-explaining it here. The factory doesn't roll crimp because for one the components are new and bullet fit is tight.

TZZ cases are Israeli and among the best.

Joe

I know you may not be talking specifially about Flatlander (although this IS his thread) but I'm sorry that you feel that this inexperienced reloader (or any of us, for that matter) isn't worth wasting your time on, how's he s'posed to know the "truth" if you don't enlighten him? How about at least posting a link to someplace where you HAVE exposed this truth!

I don't think Flatlander is looking for match accuracy or has a match gun that is properly dimensioned for what you're talking about. I think he just wants his stuff to work correctly, and for most of us, that's the taper-crimp.

I've been using the taper-crimp Lee seater die for years, only to just remove the bellmouth from the case. I sort brass and have 4 different custom-made powder-through-expander plugs for differnent boolits/bullets so I get all my problems ironed out with case tension alone. If my Kimber 4" bbl shoots 1.5 in. at 25 yards off bags that's better than I can shoot it most times offhand anyway, so who cares?

+1 on all who said Lee "factory crimp" dies are worse than useless for .45 ACP, but EXCELLENT in many rifle combos, particularly the tube-magazine variety.

Gear

[StarMetal]

I have never even seen a roll crimp die let alone used one! So don't assume that I am not willing to learn or listen to someone who has some experience. The only round I have ever loaded is the 45 ACP, its supposed to be the easiest. (At least thats what I have read). The only reason I ask questions is because I do not understand.

The roll crimp is built into most seating dies. It's just a step up ledge to a smaller diameter and what it does is forces "rolls" the case mouth into the bullet, preferably a crimp groove or cannelure. We're only talking a slight roll in on the 45acp to anchor the bullet. NRA recommends no more then a .020 roll crimp.

Ok, they say that 45acp headspaces on the case mouth. Thing is it's pretty hard to find a case that is that long. In the 1911 two things may head space that cartridge, or hold it against the breech face for firing. One is the extractor claw. The other is seating the bullet out just enough it head spaces the round. The 1911 also has an exceptionally long firing pin reach or protrusion. There's an old trick when loading for a 1911 and that's to remove your barrel and use it as a gauge to get the OAL when seating the bullet. Also works to find out if a round isn't correct, rather then finding out else where when shooting it. Most all this can apply to other brand firearms and also other calibers for semi-autos.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Flatlander, please read Starmetal's explanation twice. The extractor claw is the primary reason more novice reloaders haven't killed themselves with overcrimped (particularly LEE FCD deathcrimp-per-instructions crimp) .45 acp reloads.

I tend to use the term "headspaces on the case mouth" to imply the potential safety hazard of overcrimping. With a sensible crimp like he said (or taper crimp, or none at all) if the extractor fails, you have a broken extractor, not a potentially blown-up gun or worse from the casemouth falling into the ball seat and binding the bullet.

The answers to your problem have pretty much been covered, play around with what has been said, maybe compare your loads to some factory equivalent loads with calipers to get more of an idea what you're trying to achieve.

Gear

[Flatlander]

I inserted a factory round into my barrel; there is .025 from the end of the barrel to the end of the head stamp. When the round is inserted into the slide the ejector holds it in place. So you really don’t know where that round is sitting in the chamber. There is an additional gap between the head stamp and the breach face.

During live fire the round comes up from the magazine and is held by the ejector and inserted into the chamber. If the case is to long or the bullet somehow interferes in the barrel you will have FTB and the pistol won't fire (or shouldn’t).

In order to find the exact case length you needed you would have to know the distance from where the ejector holds the round to the chamber seating face.

When the round is fired I would think the head stamp of the case would push against the breach face from the inertia of the bullet. It would have to push against something (the ejector?)!
So the case mouth does not seat in the chamber, there has to be some clearance. So you can roll crimp to your hearts desire with no effect. At least on the 45 ACP

Have I got this right?

[Echo]

When the round is fired I would think the head stamp of the case would push against the breach face from the inertia of the bullet. It would have to push against something (the ejector?)!
So the case mouth does not seat in the chamber, there has to be some clearance. So you can roll crimp to your hearts desire with no effect. At least on the 45 ACP

Have I got this right?

Well - sorta. I have been taught that the round headspaces on the boolit - that is why I seat my boolits shoulder out .030 or so. No .45ACP case ever made is as long as the chamber, so the idea that they headspace on the mouth of the case is just wrong. And it is a rationalization on someone's part that they headspace on the extractor. I suppose there might be some sort of action or interaction involving the extractor, but there is a condition called endplay that describes the slack/play/whatever that exists when the round is chambered. Any - is excessive. But old GI mudguppy's didn't mind the variable ignition caused by all the slack, which might be another reason they would typically group about 8-10 " @ 50 yds.
>
Roll crimp just enough to turn the flare back. And even if your round stands proud a few thousandths in the dismounted barrel (due to the boolit being seated out a trace), the slide will fully chamber it when it comes back into battery.

[geargnasher]

I inserted a factory round into my barrel; there is .025 from the end of the barrel to the end of the head stamp. Good. This is as it should be.When the round is inserted into the slide the ejector holds it in place. Sort of. First, it is an extractor, not an ejector. The ejector is the fixed protrusion that "kicks" the round loose from the extractor claw and flings it out the ejection port as the slide cycles. The extractor LOOSELY holds the round in place within a few thousanths of the breech face. This tolerance varies widely from gun to gun.So you really don’t know where that round is sitting in the chamber. If you know it's between the clearance in found in your first sentence above and the breech face.There is an additional gap between the head stamp and the breach face. Not an additional gap, just gap. This is true of almost any gun and is a necessary feature for reliable operation under field conditions.

During live fire the round comes up from the magazine and is held by the ejector and inserted into the chamber. If the case is to long or the bullet somehow interferes in the barrel you will have FTB and the pistol won't fire (or shouldn’t).
If.
In order to find the exact case length you needed you would have to know the distance from where the ejector holds the round to the chamber seating face. As has been said, you won't find brass long enough to fill that space completely on most .45s, but in essence you would be correct, only you need not consider the extractor claw, only true chamber dimensions (from breech face to end of chamber). Most autos stop the breech tightly against the end of the barrel, so if you want to measure chamber length, drop a case in the barrel and measure the difference to the rear of the barrel (squarely).

When the round is fired I would think the head stamp of the case would push against the breach face from the inertia of the bullet. It would have to push against something (the ejector?)! No. The case head pushes on the breech face until the chamber and breech face mechanically separate and extraction begins, this is why there is some slack in the extractor and case rim, there has to be some wiggle room for the chamber to lock/unlock.
So the case mouth does not seat in the chamber, there has to be some clearance. That's right.So you can roll crimp to your hearts desire with no effect. That depends on how much accuracy/safety you want. At least on the 45 ACP

Have I got this right?

That's the best I can explain it.

Gear

[Flatlander]

Sorry for bungling the terminology!
I have beat this subject to death but now I understand a lot more that I did before.

Anyone want a free Lee FCD?:)

[TonyT]

Wow! All this stuff I never thought of:
First I shoot mixed brass so that might account for some of the problem.
I will seperate by brand to find those that don't work.
My Lee die sets are fairly new, I bought a Lee Factory taper crimp die and use that as a seperate operation in addition to the standard die set of three.

The outside diameter of a random sample of cases is about .470 at mouth.
The inside diameter at the mouth ranges from .447 to .450.
I bell mouth the cases so the bullet just starts, you have to hit it just right to start seating.

I thought you could not use a roll crimp die on Pistol rounds because the round headspaces on the case mouth.

I use mixed headstamp brass (R-P, W-W, Federal, CBC, etc) with a Dillon die set and have never experienced any problems with bullet setback with jacketed bullets in 45 ACP. The only brass I discard is AMERC which has poor uniformity and does not hold bullets uniformly. The jacketed bullets fit very tight into my cases.

[wallenba]

Curious about this I assembled the slide and barrel of my 1911 off the frame and using a dummy I use to readjust my seater die I did notice a gap between the breech face and the case as well as it not reaching the end of the chamber. Actually seems to 'float' in between. I'm going to get some plastigauge from the auto supply to try to check my breech face gap.

[TAWILDCATT]

any one wonder how the 45 was loaded before the taper crimp.that is a fairly new idea.I too roll crimp into the front band on SWC.I do not load jacket.my gun will outshoot many custom guns.and never failed in compitition.military guns have terrible triggers.mine was 12lbs.now its 4 lb.any military will shoot good with a good trigger.and as said they dont head space on mouth.put an empty case in the barrel and see where it lands.at 50 yds the gun will stay in the 10 ring and better.I shot sielouett one time and used my stock military had no problem untill I got to 200yds hit ram on 7th shot and dropped it. that was like shooting a morter
I was aiming on the 300 yrd berm.my cases are 30 +yrs old and I dont short them.mostly military.I have nnever measured the OAL.I followed the advice of Barry Colt ,Dinin ,and Hamilton.colt and hamilton belonged to my club.

[blackthorn]

Quote "Roll crimp just enough to turn the flare back. And even if your round stands proud a few thousandths in the dismounted barrel (due to the boolit being seated out a trace), the slide will fully chamber it when it comes back into battery."

Yes IF --the bullet is soft enough to allow it to be forced to engrave the lands! IF NOT --the round will simply prevent the slide from closing (best case senario) OR --the bullet will be forced back into the case (raising the possibility of dangerously increased pressure) OR --(worst case senario) you may get a "slam fire!"

Personally I dont mind if the round is a couple of thousadths BELOW the mouth of the chamber but I will not accept measurements that leave the loaded round ABOVE the chamber mouth! Better safe than sorry!