rolling block help

[357maximum]

I had an old roller follow me home today, it has some issues and I want to make her talk again.

First some info:
It has three lines of patent info on the upper tang... the only thing legible is"patent" and "1874" in a few spots. It has a "P" on the barrel in front of the reciever on the left side. Round top reciever with a rotary extractor. There are no other markings. It has three bands and is 45/70 or thereabouts....the bore is trashed and has the front 1/3 of a piece of brass welded to the chamber and is green and ugly in that area. The wood is actually useable and has a steel cleaning rod and a steel nosecap on the loooong forearm. No boyonet attachment is evident, but it looks as though it may have had one at one time.

Really nice graduated sights are on it also....they may go on the new barrel....not sure right now.

What model designation is it?


I am thinking a sporter length barrel in 45colt would be cool, but am not married to that caliber yet......357max would be cool also...still thinking on caliber. I do not need a great big ol 45/70 so that is out.

I need a smith that could rebarrel it and install an extractor to match the new case....any suggestions? all that is left around here is parts changers....IE no real gunsmiths. I will do all the woodwork and metal refinishing myself.


Help, suggestions, and opinions will all be appreciated.


thanks,
Michael

[45nut]

I suggest PICTURES !

[wills]

.32-40
.38-55

Dave Higginbotham
http://www.lonestarrifle.com/

[bubba.50]

don't know if it helps but, i have a similar beast and it turned out to be spanish reformado caliber. when you get to sporteratin' let me know if you want to get rid of fore-arm/bands. been lookin' for same.

[nitroproof]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5499&d=1196555530

Craig Rittenhouse
Tamaqua, Pa
570-277-0381

Gunsmith - Barrel Relining - Barrel Fitting- Repairs and general gunsmithing.

Mr. Rittenhouse did two relines for me a Remmy military to 45/70 and a Whitney Roller sporting rifle to 38/55. Very happy with his work!

[357maximum]

I suggest PICTURES !

as soon as I get her put back together....I had to dissect her for a checkup.


I LOOKS LIKE a ROLLING BLOCK....THE PICS WILL NOT DO MUCH HELP I THINKS...BUT I WILL GET ON IT. ;)

[Buckshot]

..............357maximum, the only military RB with, "Really nice graduated sights are on it also .............." would be the 1879 Argentine contract rifle, which undoubtly had the finest sights Remington ever put on a military RB. However, the 'real' ones had an octagonal knoxform between the sight and the action. Atop it it was normally stamped "Modello Argentino. 1879 E.N.". Some few were NOT stamped. Also on the right front of the barrel would be a saber bayonet lug. The caliber would have been .43 Remington Spanish, aka 11.15x58R and is a kissin' cousin to the Remington 44-77BN. As the barrel will probably have 5 lands and grooves it would make checking the groove problematic but should be close to .440" (if not worn larger).

....................Buckshot

[excess650]

Not all of the rollers were made by Remington. Whitney also produced rollers, and if it appears close to 45-70, it might be one of the Scandanavian variety.

Are the pins on the left side of the receiver retained by a flat diamond shaped plate, or screws?

Because of the metallurgy of the day, you'll be wise to go with a relatively low pressure chambering. 357Max is definitely out unless you load it with only BP ala 38XL. More than likely it will have a large firing pin, so it would be a good idea to keep pressures down.

The 38-55 would be an excellent choice as would 40-50 Sharps Straight or Bottleneck, 40-60 Maynard. The 40-50SS and 40-60M are both based on the 30-40 Krag case, and the 40-50BN on a shortened 45-70.

[lathesmith]

I agree, I think 38-55 would be an excellent choice for a period-piece such as this. It does BP, and smokeless from mild to wild(though in this case, one wouldn't want to get too carried away), and is VERY accurate and easy to load.
lathesmith

[357maximum]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/ROLLINGBLOCK002.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/ROLLINGBLOCK004.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/ROLLINGBLOCK006.jpg

[357maximum]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/ROLLINGBLOCK005.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/ROLLINGBLOCK001.jpg


I have actually found shallow but shootable rifling in it after some exhausted cleaning. It is five groove and has slightly rounded lands...but I have seen worse shoot ok. It is NOT 45/70 it is a slow tapered bottleneck round with a base/rim larger than 45/70. As soon as the green brass monster is fully removed from the front of the chamber I will get a cast of it......that might be a bit.....it is pretty happy where it is at.

It appears to be 47-50 caliber...just used calipers...have not slugged it yet.

the case head cutout is about .650+

the base of case above the head is about .520 to .523


If I can get the front 1/3 of the case out or dissolve it away and find out what it is...it may just stay the way she is......with a few boogered screws repaired and some TLC of course.

[357maximum]

there is also a "U" stamped midpoint on the side of the middle barrel band.

Has a steel gentle crescent shaped buttplate.


PS nevermind the LeeLiquid Alox on the wall....my little neice thought it made cool fingerpaint and I have not washed it off the wall of the mancave yet...I was more concerned with getting it off her hands..........them youngins is quick and a tray of drying TL boolits is far too much temptation apparently. :)

[excess650]

It appears to be a Remington action, and I'll guess it to be .43 Spanish. The head and rim diameters are about right. The muzzle may be worn considerably, but should be roughly .446" groove diameter.

[357maximum]

I managed to get the brass out of the chamber. NOT GOOD

She has a solid pitted ring where the brass was...all ugly and very deep.....new barrel will be in her future at some point.

I bought the roller for a song and with a promise to myself. Keep her original if I could make it shoot as is, but if the barrel needed to come off........all bets were off. I have some decicisions to make while she sits in the corner waiting on $$ to move forward.

[45nut]

I think he wants something like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/rifles/100_0756.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/rifles/100_0589.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/rifles/100_0588.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/rifles/100_0587.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/rifles/P0000506.jpg

I have had that little carbine for some time now,, the gunsmith retired and moved away after completing it.
It is a 357 Maximum. It was originally a 1871 NY Militia 50-70 rifle but was in very, very poor condition when I got it. Basically a wreck. Unsalvagable except for the action.

It has a truck axle size barrel on it and hangs solidly and did quite well with RCBS 35-200gr boolits.
I can't quite remember the load data and am sure it was a middle of the road one since I rarely go to the top end with any cartridge when if I need more I can often just select a bigger cartidge.

[357maximum]

Yeppers

Something similar would work just fine, thanks for the pics Ken.

[lathesmith]

Ken and 357, thanks for the pics, I love those old rollers no matter what the caliber! I used to have a repro rolling block pistol in 357 mag, and foolishly sold it. That was back in the '80's--I gave something like $125 for it back then, and I think that selling it was one of the stupidist things I have ever done! I thought about getting another one of those, but was told EMF or whoever it was that made or imported them quit doing so years ago. Maybe one day I'll get lucky and run onto one...and I'll bet it'll cost a little more coin than I paid for the one I had way back when!
There's just something right and proper about taking a wreck and restoring it to shooting form again. If those pieces could talk, I'll bet they could tell some great stories!
lathesmith

[excess650]

I HAD a NY State Militia 50-70 that was in fair condition. The bore didn't look all that great, but it grouped surprisingly well with BP. I tried a very light duplex under the BP for a cleaner burn, but the bullets keyholed. I suspect that a function of the sloooooooooow twist in that original barrel. Anyway, I traded it to a guy for a #1 sporter that was orignally a 22. I still have that roller, and really should get it relined. The stepped side, octagon top action is pretty large for a 22.

I really liked the 50-70 as a plinker and fun gun. Modern twist for that caliber is more like 1-24" vs the original 1-38" or whatever it was. The 50-70 was really easy to load for. Put as much ffg as you could in the case and still thumb a bullet in, and shoot it!

[357maximum]

well here is what I have finally decided to do with her.

Seeing as how she is perfectly restorable...I am gonna wait and see if I can find an original take-off barrel in 43 or 45/70......If when I have the money that has not come to pass...I may get a modern replacement barrel made and then brown it.

I have always looked at these rollers and old mauser and such as parts for a custom gig...but this one has brought out some weird purist in me that I did not know existed......color me confused:veryconfu

[45nut]

And so the tide turns! LOL

[357maximum]

And so the tide turns! LOL

I hold Dutch 4122 and 45 2.1 entirely responsible for my current illness. They are the ones that showed me what can be done and what I can do with old war relics in their as issued state.....it's all their fault.


There are two groups there the upper one is Dutch 4122's and the lower is mine...both from 100 yards with a dead stock yugo mauser that was like 12 feet long. :)

[nitroproof]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5207&d=1194100932
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5206&d=1194100772

I picked up this old roller for $175 at a gunshow, the bore as rough, I mean Really Rough. Wanting an entry level silhouette rifle I opted to have have the the barrel relined to 45-70. The original barrel was pitted badly under the forend, so a full length replacement was in order.
I had a full length walnut muzzle loader blank lying around so I cut the butt end and sent it off to Treebone Carving for turning and whittled a new forend myself.
The sights are from Lee Shaver.
I just rebrowned the metal and and it's still as you see it. Put it together back in the mid 1990's.
Old girl shoots well in her new incarnation.

[357maximum]

Nitro....that is pretty cool. I like it.

Except for the 3 bands on mine they look alot alike. I got lucky my wood is in pristine useable (vintage petina) shape so I might just as well keep her as orignial looking as possible. If I end up buying a new barrel I will get this tube copied and brown it to match the rest of the gun to the best of my abilities. The only odd thing that will have to be done it the rotary extractor will have to be applicable to the new caliber if I go to 45/70, 38/55 or whatever. I still think 45LC would be a cool chamber for this critter if I have to buy a new barrel. For now she sits here waiting for a few 43rounds to see if that pitted chamber is going to actually make her unshootable....time will tell.

[keeper89]

357--Oh, boy.......I USED to have a few spare places in my gun locker until I got the contagion you seem to have contracted. Now there is a roller in 38-55 (you REALLY need to think about that caliber) a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-90 (like that one also) an original 1884 Springfield trapdoor (oh boy) two 98 mauser customs, two turkish mausers, a Mk 4 SMLE, a K-31, Springfield M1-A1 and a Bushmaster. I still haunt the gunshows and auctions. Current targets for acquisition are: Steyr M-95. Swedish Mauser (both long and short) 03 Springfired, M-1 Garand and M-1 carbine. No cure in sight, I guess you could say i am happily addicted..................have lots of fun with that roller and keep us posted!:Fire:

[Freightman]

The bottom one is a Norway Rolling Block, shoots almost as well as the top one which is a Shiloh.Does you three band look like it?

[357maximum]

The bottom one is a Norway Rolling Block, shoots almost as well as the top one which is a Shiloh.Does you three band look like it?

I looks alot like the 3bander in your pic. Mine has dark patina'ed walnut and a bit more age induced finish character. No medallions or nothing either. My cleaning rod seems to be shorter...maybe it is missing something all it has is threads on the end that goes into the stock.

[357maximum]

My roller is a late model #1 military contract with a rotary extractor in 43 spanish....mystery is all solved. After a lot of chamber neck polishing I think she is shootable...the only question is to what the brass will look like after the trigger is pulled..........if that goes ok she will stay as is with some boogered screw repair/replacements and she will be good to rock I hope.

Now I need to find some low pressure load data and some brass/dies/moulds and other goodies if the test fires go OK.



those that need parts for rollers:

http://www.rollingblockparts.com/originalparts.htm

I found this while bopping around...hope it helps someone.

[wills]

also
http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/remington/roll_block.html

[Buckshot]

...........Many years ago I was given a 1884 Trapdoor that somehow or the other got it's barrel bent and forend wood broken. I sent the barreled action off to The Montana Rifleman. In conversation with them it turned out they had a tracer lathe and could contour a barrel blank to that of the TD. I also have them D&T for the rear sight. They did the barrel, thread and chambered and installed it. Slipped rigth back into the stock and the bands required only some very minor fitting.

They barreled my 375 Whelen AI and installed it on the action. I also bought the 2 barrels from them a friend and I had our 35 Rems done locally on M1894 Brazilian SR actions. No complaints form me on any of their work or barrels.

Having a new barrel contoured, chambered and fitted to your action may be the way to go? Just a thought.

..............Buckshot

[excess650]

You could just have it relined. Track of the Wolf has thickwall(relative term) liners that could be inserted into your existing barrel for a caliber change. Modifying the extractor shouldn't be a big deal.

You'll need a liner that is larger in diameter than the existing chamber. Any larger than 9/16" in diameter should work.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(quqjp245ahcmvl453jr3p0na))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483

50-70 would be a fun BP round as would the smaller 40s and 38-55. If you're not going to shoot silhouette, you won't need the fast twist barrel to stabilize loooong heavy bullets.

If you don't want to shoot BP, the 40-50SS and 38-55 would be good choices. The 45 Colt would be fine if it trips your trigger. You could load it with BP or smokeless. 40-50SS cases are easily made from 30-40 Krag.

[357maximum]

........

Having a new barrel contoured, chambered and fitted to your action may be the way to go? Just a thought.

..............Buckshot



That will be the plan if the rough chamberneck is an issue....will no more in a few weeks...I have some goodies coming to testfire her.

I have mutilated alot of war iron in my life for the action :shock: ...................I am gonna do a little payback to the gungods with this old girl. I will likely go 38/55 if she needs a new tube...the new tube will be a direct copy externally if deemed to be needed.

[Dutch4122]

I hold Dutch 4122 and 45 2.1 entirely responsible for my current illness. They are the ones that showed me what can be done and what I can do with old war relics in their as issued state.....it's all their fault.


There are two groups there the upper one is Dutch 4122's and the lower is mine...both from 100 yards with a dead stock yugo mauser that was like 12 feet long. :)


ROTFLMAO![smilie=s:

Gotta love the 24/47 Yugo just the way she is. Btw the barrel is 23.6 inches; and next time I'll bring the 98/29 Persian Mauser with the 29 inch tube. Only thing is you gotta help me keep an eye the Persian 'cause 45 2.1 will make off with the old girl if she's left at the dance unattended.
And while I'm on the subject; keep yer durn hacksaws away from my Mausers, Mosins, and Enfields thank ye very much.:evil:

[357maximum]

ROTFLMAO![smilie=s:


And while I'm on the subject; keep yer durn hacksaws away from my Mausers, Mosins, and Enfields thank ye very much.:evil:



I would never use a hacksaw:veryconfu.........I have power tools for such things:bigsmyl2:

A chop saw,disk sander, electric plane, single point chamfer tool,brass lapping ball for the crown and a dremel moto-tool are all I need to bubbatize them properly. :bigsmyl2:[smilie=s: