Bid on the 7mm Soup can mold you want

[Oldfeller]

I have cleared all my PM space, so send me a PM with your mold # pick. Include your REAL NAME in the PM so I can reference the order records correctly.

Failure to include your real name or to actually have been a participate in the original order sorta puts you off in limbo .... sorry.

Each mold had the center two cavities pressure cast in WW metal off a 10 lb bottom pour pot after a through mold preheat, so the numbers you see are pretty much what you are going to get apart from WW alloy differences and just how hot you run your mold. Molds were clamped closed by hand pressure using a set of LEE mold handles during the casting.

Remember, PMs are what counts -- the list will automatically keep the PMs in order so I can do them "first come -- first served" in the order that the bids arrived.

I will update this listing with your zip code so you can see that you got it (or to keep on bidding).

Everyone gets back a rebate check -- we did better than anticipated on price.

Nobody has to take an out of print mold they don't want. Doug did make a few noses that were out of print (oversize) due to some roundness error on top of his parking it right at print maximum. But, if your throat is worn (eroded) just a tad these may just be the cat's meow for your gun at your intended seating distance.

Here you go guys, have at it !!!!


mold no. orientation nose bands error type
1 Taken Zip 20111
2 Taken Zip 18509
3 Taken Zip 82604
4 Sent Zip 37179
5 Taken Zip 56477
6 Taken Zip 48415-9724
7 Taken Zip 85308
8 Taken zip 83706-4353
9 Sent zip 80516
10 Sent zip 70726
11 Taken Zip 04463
12 6pt-Sika's when his check arrives
13 Taken zip 28311
14 Sent Zip 02860
15 Taken Zip 97754
16 Taken Zip 33170
17 Taken Zip 68504
18 Taken zip 29407
19 Taken zip 75831
20 Taken zip 72065
21 Sent zip 37179
22 Sent zip 71479
23 Taken Zip 62801
24 Taken Zip 62801
25 Taken zip 83706-4353


Pretty drunk looking columns, huh? Had to do them by hand and then the list rescrambled them for me when it actually posted it (inherent issue with spaced lists I am afraid)

Oldfeller

[waksupi]

Oldfeller, may I commend you on this buy. Although I was not a participant, you managed to dodge all the extranious questioning that seems to go on with these buys, and things are as you said they would be. Carry on, Lad.

[Oldfeller]

We are almost out of the slightly bigger noses (these will fit the non-virgin gun perhaps a bit better at the intended seated distance). Only 2 molds with the slightly larger noses still remain on the bid list -- get your bid PM'd in if you know you have some use/throat wear you want to cover at your intended seating distance.

(see the first post right up at the top of this thread -- it is the one that is kept current)

[6pt-sika]

I'd like to see what this bullet looks like. Is it a FN GC design that would work in the 7-30 Waters in a lever gun ?

Do you have a drawing or picture you can post ?

[Tom Myers]

This is NOT the origional spec sheet of the 7mm Soup Can . I used the specs from the origional drawing and altered some values slightly to make these images that I could drool over until the mold is delivered to my door. They should be somewhat close to what I envision the final castings will be.

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)


http://breeze.linksky48.com/%7Etommyers/web_images/thumbnails/Lee%20Mold%206C%207%20mm%20Soup%20Can%20%20136_gr. jpg

http://breeze.linksky48.com/%7Etommyers/web_images/images/Lee%20Mold%206C%207%20mm%20Soup%20Can%20%20136_gr. jpg

[6pt-sika]

If someone wants out let me know I would like one of these [smilie=1:

[Oldfeller]

I made up the first shipments today and sent them on out. Rebates for the $43 folks ran about 4 bucks and some change, the earlier $56 guys got back 17 bucks and some change. How far the package had to ship played a big part in the size of the actual rebate amount. USPS was used.

I will keep boosting this thread up on the TODAY list to try to get folks to go ahead and bid on the mold sizes that they want, but I can't keep on holding up the rest of the "to print" molds forever simply because their owners aren't reading the list very often any more.

Starting next week I will likely just start blind mailing out "to print" molds to those who haven't responded to bid on a particular mold that fits their gun the best.

You'd be surprised how many responses I got back from folks who didn't know what their gun needed and wanted me to pick for them. So I did ......

The ogive on the nose extends almost all the way back to the lube groove, so the numbers you see for "nose" are really describing a .005" wide crush band that you will dial in with your OAL seating distance to whatever amount of unloading "pull" your particular loaded round can withstand. This one can be dialed in to align very tightly off the nose ogive and the front band using a crush loading arrangement.

And some (like me) will intentionally opt for a VERY heavy crush seating by ramming so strongly into the origin of the rifling that you simply can't unload the rounds without pulling the bullet. Me, I just plan to shoot them if I lower the bolt handle down on them.

But them's like me are known as "throat chokers" (what can you say -- mean nasty old throat chokers).

Shorten your OAL a bit and you can get whatever degree of crush (and unloadability) your heart desires ..... you got lots of back & forth neck room available to acomodate your own needs.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Down to one remaining fat nose mold -- #7 mold.

Then all remaining "stock" molds will sit for a day or three awaiting for the late bidders to "dial in" with their wishes. So far everybody either got their first pick mold (90%+ of you) or their second pick (remaining 10%).

I like this a lot better than the traditional "crap-shoot" method, don't you?

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Got a PM asking me to go ahead and ship the rest of the molds -- seems that some are watching but don't care to pick out a mold, they just want "a mold".

Not that it makes a bunch of difference, except for #7 all the rest are in the middle of the pack dimensionally anyway.

Starting tomorrow the little birds begin to fly ......

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

A check is on the way from 6pt-Sika to buy mold #12 -- and as Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig always said at the end of the cartoon ....

"Thhaaaaats's all, folks"

<g>

Oldfeller

[35remington]

Oldfeller, despite all the difficulties, delays and runarounds, you have done honorably and well by us. I was a bit overwhelmed by the lengths you went to in being certain everyone got what they wanted, and the check on the as-cast diameter was definitely above and beyond the call.

Hats off to you, sir. As far as I am concerned, if you ever want to go through the PITA of honchoing again, I would participate in a group buy without hesitation.

[Oldfeller]

Appreciate the comments on "future buys" but no futher buys on this mold will ever be needed since it is listed as a six banger mold on Midsouth's custom mold page (2O in stock) and I'm not really shooting anything new right now as I am many many miles away from my guns and working like a mad beaver 50+ hours a week to stay gainfully employed.

Besides, I got me this nice motorcycle that needs to be broke in good .....
(I DO have to drive every day even if I can't be shooting any).

Still, the thought was nice. Appreciate that.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Now I did promise everyone I would post the statistical analysis of the entire LEE production run -- this one was the 7mm Soup Can run which was 50 molds long but I only got hands on to the first 25 molds for measurement purposes (rest of the molds are at Midsouth's custom mold page).

First, let me explain why a caliper was used instead of a micrometer -- the mike I had available had a clicker thimble on it and it would absolutely reliably crush all parting line irregularities flat as a pancake instead of measuring them and it put little bitty minute flat spots on thin ogive "max diameter" areas too (once you laboriously located them and tried to measure them). In other words the mike really wasn't working for me at all and the caliper did just dandy in both finding and measuring the "soft" parting line areas and them frail and downright tiny ogive maximum diameter points.

A caliper isn't an ideal statistical tool. First, it lacks fine division or discernation-- it will only discern to 5 tenth increments while a mike will discern to single tenths (and some good ones will do 50 millionths which is half again finer discernation). Second, a caliper can be "driven" by an operator to achieve a desired goal (conciously or unconciously) and a mike generally tends to be more impartial as well as being more accurate -- on solid steel parts anyway.

But, hey - when you are dealing with lead bullets the only reliable mike I have ever found that won't crush things is a Mitutoyo QuickMike with the "hands off" fast action low contact force slip-type thimble. But the silly things cost $450 and I don't own one personally. And my current company doesn't own one either.

So I used a Mitutoyo caliper for this study -- shame on me. At least I didn't "drive" it, I always recorded what I got and I took all measurements twice and I used two different bullets per mold to make sure I had some basis to call out an "off" number with some level of confidence.

=============================

What can cause cast bullets to vary?

Many things, alloy - temperature - casting speed - head (pour distance) - open close variation on the alignment pins - closure force on the mold cavities - lordy, there are a lot of things. I tried to take some out just to keep things simple and keep things as neat as possible.

To attempt to be fair, all casting was done exactly as the molds were shipped using a Lee handle set to provide the clamping force and using a Lee 10 pound bottom pour pot allowing the nipple to rest in the sprue cone and using the nozzle as a forced pour arrangement. In short, I wanted as wrinkle free a first cast bullet as I could get and I wanted to reflect the size of the cut cavities in WW metal without any smoke or spray or other sorts of stuff that folks normally use on molds.

(smoke and spray all make mold cavities cast smaller, you know that, right?)

So, here is the raw data in picture format so you can see the organization of the rows and columns.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/toppagedata.jpg

Once again, right click on the pics, hit copy then paste it into your favorite graphics program so you can expand it enough to acutally see the numbers.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/bottompagedata.jpg


Got to split this post in two -- list can't take the whole enchalada. This seems as good a spot as any ...

[Oldfeller]

The center two cavities were cast and both separate bullets were measured at the nose ogive max diameter section (a wee tiny little zone really) and over the length of the driver bands. A measurement was recorded over the parting line and at 90 degrees out from the parting line -- this reflects roundness of the bullet with most slugs being smaller at the parting line (which means the clamping force used during machining was greater than the clamping force available off the LEE handle set -- the cavity holes were round when they were cut but they were just clamped a lot harder at that point in time)

Cutting to the chase, LEE made some out of print cavity holes during this mold run dispite being given a full .003" tolerance as per their spec sheet requirements. Most of this error was locational -- where they parked or set up the process.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/processcapabilitynose.jpg

If you want to be able to really read these graphs, right click on them, copy them then paste them into your favorite graphics program and expand the image back to a "readable" size.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/processcapabiltiybands.jpg

Notice the bands were set up at the low end of spec and the nose was set up at the upper end of spec. I drummed at Doug DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT GO UNDERSIZE on the nose so I can see where he maxed out on the nose. Why he went short on the driver bands, I dunno. At least he was actually touching a print limit instead of being .002" undersized as has sometimes happened recently, so it is not to complain I guess.

==========================================

Now. lets talk about CAPABILITY to a .003" tolerance for this run. Obviously when you have one item hanging half out the top and the other item hanging half out the bottom of your .003" tolerance range and you are measuring out of print non-conformance in whole percents (and your PPK is a negative number because the center of a distribution is completely out of tolerance) -- you are not capable of holding the .003" tolerance.

Now, let's talk some fairy juice. IF Doug could center his process in the middle of spec his sigma numbers and histogram spread indicate he COULD maybe get them all into a .003" tolerance. His PPK, Cpk, Z-score or whatever flavor of capability index that you like to use wouldn't be very good, but IF Doug could center his process in the middle of a spec he COULD get them all in print with a .003" tolerance. Theoretically.

He sure as **** has no chance at all with a +/-.001" tolerance, much less when given a total tolerance of .001" (+/-0.0005") So, give him a teeny tiny tolerance span if you want to -- but don't be too surprised when he misses it by a couple of thousandths. Design your bullets to work with a .003" tolerance span and Doug has a fighting chance to make you a run of molds.

Now, is the process under statistical control? Yes. it just isn't as good as you would like it to be.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/xbarnose.jpg

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/xbarbands.jpg

Note the range charts (bottom portions) please. The sample size is the same as the number of times a bullet got measured (parting line to 90 degrees out) so the calculated range chart is really the statistical expression of bullet roundness. LEE might cut cavities perfectly round, but the blocks move on the alignment pins some and there is open-close variation and clamping force variation that gives you out of round bullets to the tune of a thou and a half (right regularly too).

I may have some more to add to this as I play with the data, but you begin to see why LEE asks us to put .003" tolerance ranges on things -- they need it.

Adder thought -- if your range chart upper limit is statistically generated at .0016" (roundness variation within a bullet) how could you even begin to think you could give somebody a .001" total tolerance spread -- LEE USES UP more than that in roundness alone -- much less covering the larger pure dimetrical size variation that is going on at the same time.

Amusing thought -- the 3 oversized molds that were supposed to be enlarged to a thou over print specification on the driver bands never even got close to that neighborhood -- actually they fall right into both sets of control charts and both sets of histograms. Statistically, they were not really statistically "different" from the normal run molds.

Follow up though -- Mold #7 had trash in one of it's pin holes -- it did better once the trash was removed. It found a "taker" who wanted an OS nose, so all the non-conforming molds were actually somebody's preferred molds, not stuff that got forced on people against their preferences.

I like that ....

Oldfeller


http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0005_1.jpg

[StarMetal]

Geez,,, I thought a good machinist learned the feel for mike and those rachet thimbles on some were for amateurs and sissys.[smilie=1:

Joe

[TCLouis]

Whichever that might be.
It will have to work for several guns (or NOT) and so it makes no difference.

[Oldfeller]

This is about casting methods and lapping. Casting methods because they really do count, lapping because sometimes you just got to do it to get what you need ...

BTW, pressure casting off the bottom of a LEE pot quickly shows the maximum possible size of all components without the use of soot or other mold treatments. If done from a throughly preheated new mold pressure casting makes a a fairly well filled out bullet that is relatively wrinkle free. But remember, it will be about as big as it can be -- it represents the upper limit of what can be cast off that mold.

Why do pressure casting at all? -- consistency-- I do it, you do it -- we see about the same story off the cavities. Everything else is a crapshoot as normal drop stream pouring is different for each of us according to our techniques and the temperatures we like to run our molds at.

Another problem is that max size pressure casting off of a locked up bottom pour pot isn't real, we all generally pour a quarter to 3/8" free flowing stream and we tune our molds to our own casting techniques to meet our own expectations.

I lapped two molds that I am going to post dimensions off of each of the six cavities because it shows just how six banger molds will vary after you tune lap them.

Guess what? Them cavities still ain't round when you finish ......

This is educational stuff, because you might also assume that lap slug stays the same during just six measley holes -- not so, it can wear some. Plus you are not as consistent in holding everything in the same relationship as you though you were. Plus, them lapped cavities are NOT ROUND (big surprise here to anyone that has lapped anything)

If you are curious, the as-cut LEE first cast dimensions for these two molds are listed in the second data sheet up above if you want to see where we started from.

Dimensions listed below are from bottom pour 1/4" gap stream dropping into the sprue hole (normal casting techniques). Plus, I tried my best NOT to lap the nose at all -- but it grew some anyway.

===========================================

POST LAP #23 nose body bands (gas check fits all 6)

cav. 1 parting line .2855 .2925
90 degrees from part .2860 .2890
cav. 2 parting line .2855 .2920
90 degrees from part .2860 .2885
cav. 3 parting line .2855 .2925
90 degrees from part .2860 .2890
cav. 4 parting line .2860 .2920
90 degrees from part .2865 .2890
cav. 5 parting line .2855 .2920
90 degrees from part .2860 .2890
cav. 6 parting line .2855 .2925
90 degrees from part .2855 .2905

ROUNDNESS LOW TO HI .0005 .0040

==================================================

POST LAP #24 nose body bands (gas check fits all 6)

cav. 1 parting line .2860 .2925
90 degrees from part .2865 .2895
cav. 2 parting line .2860 .2930
90 degrees from part .2865 .2895
cav. 3 parting line .2865 .2930
90 degrees from part .2870 .2900
cav. 4 parting line .2860 .2935
90 degrees from part .2870 .2895
cav. 5 parting line .2860 .2925
90 degrees from part .2865 .2905
cav. 6 parting line .2860 .2935
90 degrees from part .2865 .2905

ROUNDNESS LOW TO HI .0010 .0040

===========================================

Now, if I finished all the molds with the same lap at the same time, they should cast the same, right? So what is this difference between mold 23 & mold 24 ???????

Mold 24 cast almost consistently a thou BIGGER than mold 23 on all dimensions. Why ???

Answer -- I left #24 on the preheater while I worked on #23 and it got a lot hotter over that extra lag time -- when I got around to casting 24 it cooled the sprue VERY slow and it cast consistently filled frosty bullets. Mold 23 was simply preheated, it chilled the sprue normally and it cast shiny bullets with a few small wrinkles.

Temperature makes a discernable difference in size.

Oldfeller

[45 2.1]

Temperature makes a discernable difference in size.Oldfeller

So does alloy and technique, something that seems to be at gradeschool level in discussions here. 3 thousandths out of round, gaggggg!!!. You've done a lot better before!

[Oldfeller]

Yep, .001" on a solid bullet nose that had to fit up to land top ride on a Savage's short narrow rifling maybe. As I remember that took me 3 tries to get and it was only a single cavity die, too. Bit of a pain in the ass, it was.

But I wouldn't bother for something that I know is going to be sized in a lubricizer die. In this case the main goal was to get it to be big enough to be reliably sized in the intended sizer without screwing up the gas check shank. Besides, I was including the solid portion of the flash edge in those measurements too. Still, it is what it is.

But hey, if you don't want them all you have to do is say so. I wouldn't force anyone to take anything they didn't want -- that's what this whole measure up front thing is about.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

I shipped both molds to 45 2.1 so he can pick which one he really wants (they are different and one of them drops its bullets much nicer than the other one does, so Bob can pick out which one he wants. He's got a refund check for one of them in the mail to him now so he is out no money on the deal (whichever one he picks).

The remainder oversized lapped mold get shipped on to Starmetal Joe, gratis, who may decide to let it roam some afterwards as the list currently lacks a roving mold of any kind.

In any case, best wishes to you all as you search for the perfect bullet .....

Oldfeller

[C1PNR]

Just a quick "Thank You" note. Package arrived today at 83706 in fine shape! Rebate found inside!

Thank you very much for taking the time and putting up with the trouble to make this group buy happen.:-D

I presume the drawing in post #5 is as close to the final as we'll see.

[armexman]

Thank You very much for this mold project. It came in yesterday and I opened the package in front of my wife and her comment was that it looked pretty. Whew what a relief, I will cast this Saturday as I too am working long weeks.Thank you again.I'm really surprised at the rebate, because I think Your honchoing deserves this rebate and more.Alas it was claimed by my college student daughter whom even though she lives at home is always starving.

[Pepe Ray]

Soupcan was found in my mail box.
All is well. Thanks ,very much, for your efforts.
I admire your dedication. Pepe Ray, 04463

[Dutch4122]

Mine arrived yesterday. Looks great. Thank you. Zip is 48415.

[Tom Myers]

C1PNR

You asked about a final drawing of the 7mm SoupCan. As Soon as I get mine and cast a few, I will make up a detailed drawing of the actual castins and post it here where you can download an print it out.
I'm going to head down to the mailbox right now and seeif mine has arrived. Just like a kid on Christmas Eve waiting for Christmas Morn'.

Went down to the mailbox and it was there. Hot Dawg. Got it all scrubbed out with hot water and Dawn dish soap, deburred the sprue plate with float glass and 400 grit emery cloth, lightly lubed everything with BullShop Lube, the pot's plugged in and the mold is sitting on the hotplate, warming up. The day turned out not to be a waste after all.

Tom Myers

[btr-cj]

Got mine today. 70726

Thanks for all your efforts.

Now i need to get something in 7mm. :-D


C.J.

[Tom Myers]

C1NPR and all,

I wrote up a report on the results of the first firings of the 7mm Soupcan (Which, by the way, were great) and posted it on the Cast Bullet Section of this forum:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=6347

A software dimenstion sketch and a bullet image of the Soupcan bullets are also posted there that can be copied and printed out if anyone would like to do so.

Thanks again Oldfeller, so far, this is THE most accurate cast bullet that I have ever shot.

Respectfully,
Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics & Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

[6pt-sika]

Oldfeller, recieved mold #12 and rebate check this morning . Thanks for the the quick service and allowing me to get one .
Think I may have to give it a try next week .

:drinks:

[miamibanker]

Oldfeller,

I've been extreemly busy and haven't taken the time to thank you. I got the mold I ordered and your refund check. This was a great GB deal. You made it happen despite a great deal of difficulty and resistance. Taking the extra time to cast each mold in order to provide final casting information was well above and beyond Honcho expectations.

If you decide to do another group buy using your dealer contacts, I'm in. Thanks again! :drinks:

[Oldfeller]

I am attempting to change banks (to avoid some newly announced fees and charges that are coming on line) and I'd like to do this sometimes in the month of June. Before I do so, I would like for you all to pretty please cash the rebate checks some of you have been holding.

Just cash them, please. I can just hear the hollering and fussing out there six months out from now because somebody finally tried to cash a rebate check against a closed out bank account.

Cash them checks, don't hold on to them.

Thanks,

Oldfeller

[6pt-sika]

Sorry ,cashed mine this morning before I saw this post. It had been laying on top of my desk ever since I recieved the mold . It should get to your bank by the end of the week I would think .

[Oldfeller]

6pt, you ain't even close to being the last one to cash his check, believe me.

For those that get amnesia and get caught by the bank account close out next month (and there will be a few, no matter what I do) I will write them a check out of the new account once they communicate with me.

Beyond asking everyone to pretty please cash the original checks I really don't know what else to do. The extra postage to mail them a new check will be less than the new service charges, so I guess I will just I grin and bear it ....

<g>

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

I am in motion to be changing banks -- this is the last week to cash those rebate checks you are holding on to (so go on and cash it, the bank isn't that far away ....)

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Ok, I got in what looks to be the last of the rebate checks.

If you haven't been seeing these notices and you have a check and you try to cash it after I have closed out the bank account, please PM me.

What I may do is get you to send me the old rebate check for replacement with one drawn on the new bank.

Oldfeller