38spl loads in 357 mag cases?

[fusil]

Bonjour,
just bought a huge bag of once fired mixed brass, 45 acp/38spl/357mag/9mm/32acp.:Fire::Fire::Fire:

The question: Is it OK to load 38spl loads in 357mag cases?

I've been told it is OK as long as you use MAX 38spl loads?:-?

Merci,
fusil

[wallenba]

Bonjour,
just bought a huge bag of once fired mixed brass, 45 acp/38spl/357mag/9mm/32acp.:Fire::Fire::Fire:

The question: Is it OK to load 38spl loads in 357mag cases?

I've been told it is OK as long as you use MAX 38spl loads?:-?

Merci,
fusil Sure, just trim the cases down to 38 specs. Max case length 1.155, trim to length is 1.145 for both 38 special and 38 special +P loads, better mark the case heads with a colored marker just to help keep them straight.:smile:

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=fusil;646214]Bonjour,
The question: Is it OK to load 38spl loads in 357mag cases?

I've been told it is OK as long as you use MAX 38spl loads?:-?

Maybe I misunderstood you question on second thought. Do you mean load them without trimming the case down? That, I'm not sure of.

Where is Britany in France? I was in France from 1957-1959 as a kid, my Father was USAF stationed at Chambley. We lived in Metz and Dorno near Verdun.

[Stick_man]

You can load the .357mag to .38spl velocities, but loading the same powder charges into each may not be very adviseable. For many years I loaded 158gr SWC down to about 850 fps in .357mag cases. Never had a problem with them. When using soft lead, you get less cylinder fouling by using the .357 cases.

Most reloading manuals show data for loading the .357mag to the light target load velocities.

Good luck and happy shooting!

[S.R.Custom]

...The question: Is it OK to load 38spl loads in 357mag cases?

Yep. The only difference is-- increase your .38 sp load by 10% to compensate for the increased volume of the 357 case.

[9.3X62AL]

What SuperMag said. I've done that for a lotta years, and have never had a problem of any kind.

[fusil]

Merci guys,
I use 3 gr's of Vectan BA10 with 158gr Lee SWC for target loads.
I'll load 6 with 10% more and report back at the weekend.:razz:
As allways many thanks from this side of the BIG POND.[smilie=l:

fusil

[wallenba]

Yep. The only difference is-- increase your .38 sp load by 10% to compensate for the increased volume of the 357 case.

Would that 10% rule apply to 44 Russian to 44 Special to 44 Magnum? Or is there a different exponent involved? With 38 to .357 I noticed that the cases are about 10% different in OAL, so maybe it's based on % difference of the case length?:?:

[44man]

The easy way is to just go to the .357 loads in the book and pick the light loads close to the .38 velocities.
Accuracy will be better with the longer brass too.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

There is an old saying from somewhere in handloading lore that says, "357's make the best 38's. Of course you can use 38 spl loads and bullets in 357 cases, but they will be running at lower velocities unless you use 38+ loadings. The use of 38 specs in the 357 case make for great target loads as the "recurl" is softer and a lot pleasanter to shoot for paperpunching. Essentially then you have 357 target loads that will shoot good scores at 25 or 50 yards. LLS

[9.3X62AL]

I arrived at the "+10%" formula after noting that my 38 Special powder weights when put into 357 Magnum cases yielded 10%-15% less velocity. I bumped powder weights up 5%/10%/15%, and found that 15%+ was a bit too much. Certainly safe, but outside the project parameters. This was one of my first chronography projects, I should add. This rule of thumb held true with Bullseye, WW-231, Unique, and Herco powders--which is the usual range of fuels used in 38 Special/44 Special loadings.

Years later, the same rule held true for the 44 Magnum. 8.2-8.5 grains of Unique in a 44 Mag case under #429421 runs neck-and-neck from the Redhawk (5.5") with Skeeter's Load from the M-624.

These days, 90% of my magnum revolver reloading and shooting involves these "mid-range" loadings, running 'standard weight' cast SWCs from 900-1000 FPS. I went through the Magnumitis Period some years ago, and got that drag outta my system for the most part. Once in a while, I'll light off a #358156 from the Blackhawk at 1500 FPS just to show the flag, but the usual range of targets--from cardboard backers to coyotes--don't require all that thunder & lightning.

ETA--That said, to paraphrase a sig line from another site--I like just about anything that turns money into noise.

[Tom W.]

I dunno If I'd do much different than what a load manual said... The funny noise and split case from the wrong type or amount of powder has been experienced by most,:holysheep and what 44 Man said is the best proceedure...

[44man]

I arrived at the "+10%" formula after noting that my 38 Special powder weights when put into 357 Magnum cases yielded 10%-15% less velocity. I bumped powder weights up 5%/10%/15%, and found that 15%+ was a bit too much. Certainly safe, but outside the project parameters. This was one of my first chronography projects, I should add. This rule of thumb held true with Bullseye, WW-231, Unique, and Herco powders--which is the usual range of fuels used in 38 Special/44 Special loadings.

Years later, the same rule held true for the 44 Magnum. 8.2-8.5 grains of Unique in a 44 Mag case under #429421 runs neck-and-neck from the Redhawk (5.5") with Skeeter's Load from the M-624.

These days, 90% of my magnum revolver reloading and shooting involves these "mid-range" loadings, running 'standard weight' cast SWCs from 900-1000 FPS. I went through the Magnumitis Period some years ago, and got that drag outta my system for the most part. Once in a while, I'll light off a #358156 from the Blackhawk at 1500 FPS just to show the flag, but the usual range of targets--from cardboard backers to coyotes--don't require all that thunder & lightning.

ETA--That said, to paraphrase a sig line from another site--I like just about anything that turns money into noise.
All good thinking and it works but I have to tell you why I don't shoot many light loads from my hunting revolvers. I can't quit! [smilie=b:
Doesn't matter if I take 20 rounds or 500 down, I will shoot them all and have to clean brass, cast and load again. I have to look at my lead, primer and powder supply with a social security eye these days so something must be saved for deer season. ;)
Anyway, I LOVE heavy hitters to shoot long range. Anything under 50 yards needs a .22! I even shoot my Mark II at 200 once in a while. Aim at a spot 53" above a steel chicken and you can hit it every shot. HEE, HEE, THAT is fun.

[S.R.Custom]

Would that 10% rule apply to 44 Russian to 44 Special to 44 Magnum? Or is there a different exponent involved? With 38 to .357 I noticed that the cases are about 10% different in OAL, so maybe it's based on % difference of the case length?:?:

Actually, it's a little more complicated than that. The difference of the length of the cases or loaded rounds is irrelevant, as the case walls taper differently, affecting the internal volumes differently. The 10% in charge weight difference is based on the difference of powder volume under a seated bullet of a given weight. If the length of anything also varies by 10%, that is purely coincidental.

My investigation differed from Al's in that what I did was to trim .38 and .357 cases down to where the bottom of a seated bullet would be, and then measured the capacity of the cut-down cases in grains of 296. The difference in the charge weights/volumes of the .38 and .357 powder spaces was almost exactly 10%. (I used a 158 gr. Hornady XTP as the basis of comparison, figuring the deep seating of the jacketed hollow point would give me a volume comparison with a bit of a safety factor.) [edit: I should probably mention I was not shooting 296, but merely using it as a handy measuring medium.]

I'll not bore you with the testing specifics, but suffice it to say that shooting this project over a chronograph revealed that the .38s and the +10% .357s shot virtually identical velocities out of the same model 66.

The .44M and .44Sp were a bit different, the difference coming in close to 11%. I forget the exact figure --I've since lost the notes on that project-- but for all intents and purposes, the 10% figure works fine there too.

I've not fooled around with the .44 Russion, so I can't speak to that one.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Personally I would stick with listed load data for the 357 cases. There is plenty out there. If you do not have a load manual with the kind of data you are looking for Hodgdon has a pretty good online source of info. Guesstimating charges with any powder is a bad idea, but it is an especially bad idea with the fast burning flake powders common to the 38s.

[MT Gianni]

Personally I would stick with listed load data for the 357 cases. There is plenty out there. If you do not have a load manual with the kind of data you are looking for Hodgdon has a pretty good online source of info. Guesstimating charges with any powder is a bad idea, but it is an especially bad idea with the fast burning flake powders common to the 38s.

In this case I feel he is fine as he is interpolating data not extrapolating it. Interpolation is reading the max in a cartrige is 10 grains minimum is 6 grains so 8 gr is safe. Extrapolating is assuming since a start load of 6 gr gives 600 fps that 5 grains should give 500 fps and is safe. Interpolation is fine, extrapolation will let you count your fingers and come short of 10.

[Limey]

Bonjour Fusil,

......38 brass is cheap.......why not buy some to make .38 ammo?......

....to subsidise the purchase of the .38 brass sell the .357 brass !.......

Alternatively I'd recommend getting the Lee .38 case trimming tool and making the .357 into .38.....the Lee set up works great and costs peanuts.......check out Tec Magex's website for Lee product details, their postal service is excellent. Tec Majex are located down in Carcasson, in the South of France....the owners an English guy so e-mails are easy if your French is not so fluent.

It's Just my opinion, for what it's worth!, but small quantities of fast burning powders in too big a cartridge case can generate higher pressures than anticipated for the small quantity of powder being used.

This happens because the powder just lays along the bottom of the cartridge case giving a very large surface area for the primer to ignite so you get a big burn rather than a progressive burn.....but hey!....what do I know!

Safe shooting,

limey

[smith52]

As a few others have stated already, there are alot of good, low velocity loads in print for the .357 mag. In a .357mag chamber firearm, the longer .357 case will produce a more accurate load than the .38 spl case. I have a .357mag load I use at an indoor range that's about 750 to 800 fps out of a 2 1/2" S&W 686. It is actually one of my favorite loads for shooting steel.

[bnitch]

I've been starting to shoot Trail Boss in 357mag loads and find the listed loads to be pleasent to shoot with light recoil. I guess they would be cowboy loads but are nice for target shooting at not too long a distance.

[fusil]

Bonjour Fusil,

......38 brass is cheap.......why not buy some to make .38 ammo?......

....to subsidise the purchase of the .38 brass sell the .357 brass !.......

Alternatively I'd recommend getting the Lee .38 case trimming tool and making the .357 into .38.....the Lee set up works great and costs peanuts.......check out Tec Magex's website for Lee product details, their postal service is excellent. Tec Majex are located down in Carcasson, in the South of France....the owners an English guy so e-mails are easy if your French is not so fluent.

Safe shooting,

limey

Hi limey,
in the mixed bag was about 1500 38 spl cases!!!![smilie=w:
I use TECMAGEX all the time. On first name terms with Jack & Marie.
Try www.frankonia.fr, Christophe is very helpful.

Will take all advice and stick to 38 loads in 38 brass.:veryconfu

fusil

[Limey]

Hiya Fusil,

....that was indeed a VERY good mixed bag of brass you picked up!

....and I very recently got my Marlin Cowboy in 45/70 from.Frankonia ...

.... both outfits seem to be friendly, fast and efficient.....

Safe shooting,

Limey

[TonyT]

I have shot 38 Special in 357 mag chambered guns for many years. I clean the chambners thoroughly after each shooting session and have not expereinced any problems.

[fusil]

Hiya Fusil,

....that was indeed a VERY good mixed bag of brass you picked up!

....and I very recently got my Marlin Cowboy in 45/70 from.Frankonia ...

.... both outfits seem to be friendly, fast and efficient.....

Safe shooting,

Limey

Salut Limey,
ever heard of SFM ammo or brass. Most of the 38spl's are this brand?
Merci,
fusil

[Limey]

Hiya Fusil,

SFM .....Societe Francaise de Munitions

It's a French Government owned ammo making establishment.....they make up lot's of special ammo stuff as well as the run of the mill ball type ammo.

I'm guessing the brass is either ex military or Gendarme .

Safe shooting,

Limey

[fusil]

Limey,
cheers mate.:drinks:

He was a Gendarme in Rennes.

fusil

[pmeisel]

Glad to see the shooting sports are alive and well across the Atlantic. Good shooting!

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The cowboy action shooters out here do this sort of thing all the time. Check them out they have lots of recipes for 38 vel. loads in 357 cases. Also 44 special loads in 44mag. , i would bet they have developed 44 Russian loads as well.

[fusil]

HI,
The cowboy action shooters out here do this sort of thing all the time. Check them out they have lots of recipes for 38 vel. loads in 357 cases. Also 44 special loads in 44mag. , i would bet they have developed 44 Russian loads as well.

Merci Boom Boom. :drinks:

fusil

[sniper]

Fusil:
You have gotten some good advice here, but we casters/handloaders do tend to make things more difficult than they really need to be. :confused: Yes, we do!

Soooo..the .38 Special and .357 Maggie are different cartridges? I'll go out on a limb, and say ANY .38 Spl. load from a good manual will not damage a 357 in the least degree, and will be fun and pleasant to shoot, in the bargain.

For years, I used a +P .38 cast boolit load...5.5gr. Unique... in 357 cases for IPSC matches. 860 chronographed fps from a 4" barrel. "Not a wimp load;" commented one of my fellow competitors. I agree.

Didn't make major power, but if you shoot well enough, that is only a small handicap.

Some guys say that if you shoot any less than full-house loads in a .357, you somehow don't get your "money's worth"(??) Huh?

My brother in law and I shoot what he terms "hot.38-mild magnum" loads with complete satisfaction...except when he fills the case full (leveled at the mouth) of 2400, seats a boolit on top and lights it off! I don't want to be within 100 meters of him then.
I have seen what happens...broad daylight, noon, a fireball ~3 feet in diameter from the muzzle, bushes and grass turning brown for 6 feet in front of him, and small animals hopping around in circles, stunned by the blast! :shock:


After reading Marshall and Sanow's books on stopping power, and looking at their ballistic gel results, It appears to me that with cast, non hollowpoint projectiles, maximum effectiveness, based on their theories of "energy dump" within the target, and observation of the wound channel, occurs about 1000-1100 fps. Anything over that is just powder converted to noise. Not that there' s anything wrong with that, and definitely not disparaging Sir Elmer's early experiments.

Generally, we won't have to worry about piercing barricades, like windshields, firewalls, door panels, and the like.

Personal defense? BUY some good ammo from a major manufacturer, keep it for duty, but practice a lot with cast boolits of the same weight. Doesn't have to be the same velocity, tho.
Just my opinion,and worth just what you paid for it. 8-)

The main thing is to have fun, and be safe. There is no wrong way to enjoy a hobby, except unsafely!:-D

BoomBoom speaks truth!

[Char-Gar]

Here is my thoughts on the subject at hand;

1. It is just fine to use 38 Special loads in .357 brass at whatever level you wish.
2. The extra case capacity will result in a decrease of pressure and velocity.
3. If you want to maintain the original 38 Special ballistics, you will have to increase the powder charge.
4. How much of an increase will depend on which powder you use. I would be leary of an accross the board 10% rule. In fact I cringe when the term "rule" is used with powder charges in general. There are so many variabled in handloading that such rules are "iffy" at best. My rule is not to follow rules, but to treat each firearm, bullet, power and powder charge as different.

[Gene Perryman]

Fusil:
Monday I went back to the future and shot my old load of 4.3 / 231 in 357 cases using Hornady 158 LSWC/HP and some hardcast 158 LSWC's. Very pleasant load to shoot and accurate in my sorry ole RBH and Smith !! I was shooting at little piggys at 50 yds. The next time will be on paper to test the accuracy for sure......
The cylinders were much cleaner and I ended-up using the hardcast bullets to clean my barrels after shooting the Hornadys ?!?!
I went to 38 spl cases about 10 yrs ago because I could get them for free, but using the 357 cases leaves the cylinders alot cleaner. I can't stand dirty cylinders !!!
Gene

[bobthenailer]

ive had extreemly good results useing 357 mag cases and 4.0 gr of bullesey for around 800 fps with all of the different 357 mag bullets i have from 148 wc , 158 swc & rn to 180 gr tc,rfn & wfn in at least 8 different 357 mags. most will shoot a inch or better at 25 yards from the bench with a aimpoint or a scope on top , ive been useing this load for over 30 years