Ideal 308403. Whats this mold for?? Its a weird design.

[mikenbarb]

My buddy gave me some molds today including an old(Like brand new) Ideal 308403 mold and it has a graduated band system with a tapered plain base that I never saw before on a mold. Can anyone help me out with what this mold is for? Its definatly an oldie because it doesnt even have vent lines cut in it.
****I posted some pics of the mold below.**** Check out the link that SierraWhiskyMC posted below to see its original design which is the one I have. Its description is about halfway down the page.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Interesting mold.

Scroll halfway down this page: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-0_MoldselectionDesign.htm
If you don't have a M1903 Springfield, I have a few that could use those boolits :)

[mikenbarb]

Now that a NEAT boolit! I never knew they had ones like this. I dont have a 1903 but if you want to try a few out shoot me your info and I will send you a bunch I already cast up today with #2 alloy.
I wonder if they would work good in my Savage 340 30-30 bolt action?

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I'd bet they'd work just fine! :)
I have a few lbs of Hi-Skor 700x that would probably work a treat with them.

PM on the way ;)

[mikenbarb]

Got your info and I will get them out when im in town next this week. Unique might be good also or possibly a light dose of Rx7.
This is gonna be a cool boolit to experiment with in my 30-30 and Win.Mag. with light charges. [smilie=w:

[Le Loup Solitaire]

This bullet was designed by H. Pope for the 30-06. It has multiple rings and lube grooves and has a taper to it. The base band is listed by Lyman as being .314 which is simply to big as cast for 06 cases unless you do a lot of sizing and/or inside ream the case necks. It was reviewed by Col. Harrison on his investigative writings in the NRA Handloading Book. He found the bullet to be casting the base band at .317 which was ridiculously far too big. It was renumbered by Lyman at some point to read 311403 but at that time Lyman was known as "King of the Oversize" due to their antics with making mold cutting cherries last longer. If your mold is numbered 308403 and has no vent lines then it is very old and may not have the oversize condition and would be easier to load LLS

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

mikenbarb;
Yes, Unique is certainly a good possibility too. I have a lb of the "old" Unique. Alliant re-formulated (actually, just changed the mfg process) Unique a couple of times recently; it's supposed to have the same characteristics as the old Unique, but supposedly burns more cleanly, making less smoke.

I picked up some 700x originally because I was looking for a more clean-burning powder than Bullseye for .45 ACP doing IDPA-type meets; and I noted that 700x had plenty of other applications too.

LSS;
I invite you to have a look at the page I linked to in my first reply; it shows how the boolit is seated in the neck without sizing. One picture tells a thousand words.

I'm afraid that Col. Harrison simply didn't understand how the boolit was intended to be used. If he DID understand it, his pre-conceived notions from his long military training and experience would likely have dismissed it as impractical, as it is not suitable for military service.

However, it would make for an interesting hunting round ... you'd only get one shot at the quarry.

[94Doug]

That looks very interesting Mike. It's funny this design hasn't been put forward for a Group Buy at some point. Lots of '03 users around.

Doug

[mikenbarb]

Heres some pics of the mold. The base band drops out to a .314dia to the lead band dia of approx .301-.302 with Lyman #2 alloy. It mics out to about what the diagram says. I dropped the left side boolit when it was hot so thats the flat spot you see on the it. It defiantly has a unique loading process but your limited to single cartridge loading only due to the LONG oal and finger seating of the base band only in the neck.
The boolit sitting on the mold blocks give you the best look of the tapered design which isnt seen as much in the other pics due to bad lighting.
Sierra, The "New" Unique is ALOT cleaner than the old style and I founds no difference in the burn rate or pressures.
Doug, If anyone eventually wants to do a group buy for them I would be more than happy to lend my mold to be copied. The cavities are in great shape and mic out to the original design specs.
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/001-58.jpg
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/003-59.jpg
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/002-60.jpg

[Le Loup Solitaire]

+2 and thanks to WhiskeySierraMC for rerouting me to your earlier post with reference to link regarding Lyman-Pope bullet #308/311 403. It describes in detail all one needs to know about the design and how to shoot it. Thank you again/ LLS

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

And NOW the question is.... what's the best way to lube these boolits?

I started off thinking that maybe a few applications of LLA might be convenient, but that could result in lube problems near the muzzle end. Has anyone tried using LLA in a similar boolit in low-velocity .30 cal applications?

I obviously can't use my Lyman 45 lube/sizer without destroying the characteristics of the boolit's bands.

Maybe a custom "kake kutter" with the lips of the drilled-out cartridge filed really thin so as to flex?

[Green Frog]

And NOW the question is.... what's the best way to lube these boolits?

What I have found best to lube a relatively small number (a couple hundred or less) tapered bullets is the Pan Lube method. This was taught to me by the almost-famous Dale53 on this board and is probably described somewhere in the archives. If you can't find it, PM me (or perhaps Dale, himself) and you can be lubing with the best of them! :bigsmyl2:

BTW, for the tapered bullets that I regularly breech seat in schuetzen and CB bench rest events, I usually use a lube pump with a purpose-cut insert that exactly holds the tapered bullet while applying lube to all its grooves. The downside of that procedure is that each new bullet mould requires a new insert be made for that bullet!:o

Froggie

[HORNET]

I haven't tried LLA on any .30's since I wasn't happy with it on some 225438's but I have run a lot of LLA coated 6.5 plain bases out of my 6.5x257. You've gotta hold the velocity down but they work well.

[mikenbarb]

Just pack some softer rifle lube in the grooves and clean it up good to remove the excess.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Does anyone here know this John Greene that is referenced in the link to Joe Brennan's article?

thanks,

Rich

[nekshot]

I have some boolits seemingly identical but with a gas check. I am desperate to get a mold of this type, just to be differant. They are ACCURATE!

[303Guy]

Well, I seem to have re-invented the wheel!
I developed a tapered boolit for my Brit. It has no grooves at all. It gets lubed by hot dipping the boolit into molten 'waxy-lube' after seating. First the base gets hot dipped then seated, then the nose gets hot dipped and allowed to drip while cooling. Some 'waxy-lube' gets to 'suck' up into the neck/shank clearance near the mouth to seal and hold it firmly. No good for magazine use. Seems to be accurate with no leading.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-503F.jpg

These are knurled to hold the lube better.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-617F_edited.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

[nekshot]

I will gladly send a boolit to some one if they want to honcho this as a groub buy. It weighs 180 and I can only imagine this in a hollow point for game boolit. If I want a new bullet mold I would prefer something different than the 311041. I would buy them all ,but.....the bank is almost broke.

[Blammer]

from what I hear, that is more of a schutzen style boolit. It would be seated in the chamber first and then a "false" case put in after it to fully seat it in the throat. The false case then taken out and a charged case with a fiber cork in the top to keep the powder from spilling out and to provide a 'GC' of sorts.

[nekshot]

Blammer, all I can say is years ago a widow gave me a huge box of 30-06 cartridges. All were cast and I had no intention of shooting them. 2 years ago I wanted the brass. Destroyed every boolit trying to pull and still would not come out of case. I decided to shoot them at 75 yards. 5 shots made 1 biggish hole. Neat I thought. This year I shot some again at 100 yards. 3 shots gave 1 biggish hole. Now I was interested .I warmed up a neck and got one to come out. I never saw any thing like this in 30 cal with a gas check. I loaded some in 30-30 for the kids and they shot exellant. This is one boolit I would love to have a mold for.

[mikenbarb]

This style boolit is a Pope design and designed to be finger seated in the neck of the case and not false seated in the bore. It slips into a fired case neck about half way and loaded one at a time so its no good for hunting plus it may fall out of the case neck if jarred. Its a one shot BR deal. The brass has to be fired brass because of the large dia. of the rear tapered base band.

[thehouseproduct]

What I have found best to lube a relatively small number (a couple hundred or less) tapered bullets is the Pan Lube method. This was taught to me by the almost-famous Dale53 on this board and is probably described somewhere in the archives. If you can't find it, PM me (or perhaps Dale, himself) and you can be lubing with the best of them! :bigsmyl2:

BTW, for the tapered bullets that I regularly breech seat in schuetzen and CB bench rest events, I usually use a lube pump with a purpose-cut insert that exactly holds the tapered bullet while applying lube to all its grooves. The downside of that procedure is that each new bullet mould requires a new insert be made for that bullet!:o

Froggie

Do you have a picture or source for this lube pump?

[adrians]

hi, i have the 311403, is this mold just a re-vamp of the 308403 or is it differant in any way ? also i don't have a 30.06 but do shoot .308 and 30.30 ,would this "finger seated" design be o.k loaded(singulary) in my mod 94 30.30? and in my bolt action would it be seated to length when bolt is closed (lots of simple ?'s but i'm curious to know ). these drop at 174grns
hope these pics load!!!.thanks adrians.

[HORNET]

adrians, that was just a labeling change by Ideal. Lots of the 308XXX molds got relabeled as 311XXX, lots of 360XXX molds got relabeled as 358XXX, Not necessarily any correlation with any actual as-cast size changes.
Whether they will work in your .308 or .30-30 will depend on actual as-cast dimensions and the throating in those rifles. You'd need to try them and see. It may be necessary to size at least the base band down before you can get the action to close. That band is supposed to cast about .317, which may be a little too big for your chambers. See how one fits in a fired, unsized case neck if the throating is a restriction. .30/30's tend to be throated a bit long while .308's frequently only have a short ball-seat type throat.

[Trifocals]

It seems I recall SAECO made/makes a mold for a tapered boolit. I cannot recall the number designation. Since Lyman no longer makes the 311403 mold, it might be worthwhile to contact SAECO. If they can supply it, it would probably be much cheaper than a custom mold. LOL

[adrians]

thanks guys i/ll shoot a couple of each 30.30---.308 and see if they seat in unsized cases .. have a great day .:twisted::confused::evil: