.35 Whelen with the .35 Winch. boolit

[farshooter]

I'm new here so I hope I fit in.

While my favorite rifle is the M1 Garand, my favorite boolit is 358318 as I cast it for my .35 Whelen. It weighs 250 grains with GC and lube. A long while ago I decided that all my arms would have to effectively shoot a cast boolit and take full advantage of kinetic energy, heavy boolit and moderate velocity.

About fifty years ago I had a Douglas, Wyoming gunsmith re-barrel a model 54 Winchester to .35 Whelen and I use the Lyman 48 receiver sight. Since that time I've killed a lot of big heavy game with ole ...318. It shoots plain base pistol boolits, .357 boolits just fine too. Just a pinch of Unique makes a good grouse gun and not much noise. I taught my children to shoot big bore with this load. They weren't no bigger'n a minute.

Back in the days when I could buy 4831 for 50 cents the pound, I worked up a moose killer load for my Whelen's boolits. I haven't changed the formula.

I shoot 250 grain jacketed also and I had Fred Barnes make me up some 300 grain solids for it. I don't shoot them much. I prefer lead.

Doc Burgess

[Dean D.]

Howdy Doc, welcome to Cast Boolits!

I have to agree with you, my .35 Whelen really likes the 358318 also.

[sundog]

Howdy Doc, you said you prefer lead? Methinks you fit in around these parts jest fine.

[Bret4207]

Welcome Doc! You like the 35 and the 318? So do I. You'll do fine in these parts.

[Blammer]

I think you'll fit in just fine!

I also like the 35 whelen, I have a Marlin XL-7 in 35 whelen, so far the 360180gr GC RF is getting tested at warp speed. I also like the 358009 and the 358009 custom flat point.

I have a 358318 GB coming so I'm set on some boolits to shoot! :)

[farshooter]

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I see that there are many Whelen fans here. I've owned the Brown-Whelen and the improved Whelen, but I've stuck with the standard .35 Whelen. During the sixties I bought 3,000 rounds of Match brass and worked it all into .35 Whelen, one pass through the full length re-sizer die.

Doc Burgess

[Echo]

Yo, Doc, and welcome. I have a yen for a 35 Whelen - you said that you remade match brass into the 35W just by running them into a sizing die. I would have considered fireforming somehow. Does the expander ball expand the neck nicely concentric? If so, then I will use your method - when the 35W comes my way.

[farshooter]

Echo, one has to fire form the Brown-Whelen and the improved Whelen, and for the first hundred or so I fire formed my standard .35 Whelen. For the past fifty years I haven't fire formed them. I just run them through my full length re sizer and shoot them and that's for all my loads including the 300 grain solids.

The .35 Whelen is a great cartridge.

Doc Burgess

[insanelupus]

Doc,

What barrel twist is your Model 54? I've got a Remington 700 CDL with a Lyman 57 receiver sight I had fitted to it. (Yup, all my buddies asked why I had iron sights added to a rifle when it was designed for a scope!). Love those 35 Whelens.

I've had the opportunity to hunt wtih an orignal 95 Winchester chambered in 35 WCF. I love that cartridge too. Hard to choose between 'em honestly. I haven't cast any of my 358318 moulds yet, but plan to in the near future.

[farshooter]

Naumann at Douglas, Wyoming, now deceased, re barreled and chambered my Winchester model 54, .35 Whelen. He didn't have a chamber reamer so I sent him one and he did the work. He used a 24 inch Douglas barrel with a 1-14 twist. It handles all my heavy boolits and also my small game 160 grain 358311. Loaded with 5 grains of Unique I have a very quiet, very accurate fifty yard load.

Doc Burgess

[Shuz]

Welcome Doc--Always room for a Whelen fan!

[GLynn41]

welcome Doc-- I have two baby whelens .358 win

[db22]

Some years back, a long-time hunting partner decided to give up casting, and gave me some of his favorite Lyman moulds, including a double-cavity 358327 and a single 358318. The only .35-caliber rifle I own is a .357 Maximum NEF Handi, and the 358327 is a perfect 100-yard deer boolit. A full case of Reloder 7 sends it along at a good pace, with stability out past its effective range. So far, so good.

The real surprise was the 358318. Since the rifle's barrel started out as a .357 Magnum, it has the handgun round's 17.5" rifling, and I assumed it would not stabilize the long 358318. That's what I get for assuming things -- with a full charge of Reloder 7, the big 358318 remains stable at 100 yards. I have never chronographed it, but I imagine it is going way too slow to be suitable for deer at that distance. I always take a few rounds to the range, however, just to see the look on peoples' faces when I show them the loaded cartridge.

Is anyone still making brass for the .35 WCF? I have a few samples in my cartridge collection, and it strikes me as a perfect round for a single-shot. Being a lefty, the idea of a M1885 action barreled in .35 WCF is very appealing. Is it possible to make brass by running .30-40 brass into a .35 WCF sizer?

[farshooter]

GLynn41, I have never owned a .358 Win., but it is one of the ideal cast boolit rifles. I checked my Lyman Handbook of Cast "Boolits" and it showed the 358318 boolit with some impressive loads. Many loads listed there are at about 2,000 fps and that combination will drive the 250 grain ...318 through any moose or elk when well placed and at moderate ranges.

On the same page the .35 Win. shows similar velocities at 2,000 fps with ...318.

Doc Burgess

[GLynn41]

not many moose or elk in West TN but it is death on whitetails

[farshooter]

You be one of Crockett's boys, I suspect. Good for bear and such at 250 grains.

Like I say, the .358 Win. has to be one of the finest cast boolit rifles. Good for about anything.

Meet you on the Sweetwater and Seeds ke dee.

Doc Burgess

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi, You can make 35 cases out of 30-40 Krag cases. 35's measure 2.406 in length, and 30-40 Krags are 2.134. That leaves a difference of .092 or for all practical purposes a little less than .01 on length. The first thing to do is anneal the Krag cases; that'll soften the brass up a bit and help prevent any splitting. You then have a choice of two routes to go. One is to put 10 grains of Red Dot in a primed case and then pack it with kleenex or toilet tissue and fire form it in the rifle. That will do it. What you will then have is a 35 Winny case that might be that .01 short or in the exchange of necks, you may pick up the difference. If not, one firing later you will have it or doggone close. The second route is to take the Krag case after the annealing and neck it up to .358 (might take a two step operation which is easier on the brass) then load a bullet ahead of a light to moderate charge and fire(form) it that way. If anyone is making 35 brass commercially you can be sure that they are going to want to be jolly well paid for it. I got into a similar situation not too long ago with 405 WCF brass for my Winny 95; I made my own out of Krag cases. They were around 1/4" too short but they worked fine and were/cost a lot less than Hornady's $50. for 50 cases. I had to put up with the shorter case, but the 405 is not something you plink with or shoot a lot so I'm not worrying about the chamber getting eroded by powder gremlins during my/any remaining years. You won't have that concern with the .01 if you have it around at all. So in sum, yes (as Home Depot says)," you can do it". Good luck. LLS

[farshooter]

Well, enough from me on other .35s and back to the Whelen.

Something quiet and tight for sentry duty and squirrel-eye accuracy. Something for serious boolit shooting like the ...318. Something with copper, 250 grains at 2,550, second only to the .375 H&H; (.375 a rifle that I shoot often with lead and such). Something full metal, 300 grains, just 'cause.

Doc Burgess

[insanelupus]

db22,

Buffalo Arms sells 35 WCF brass which is redrawn from .30-40 Krag cases (to make up for the length if they are simply necked up). If loaded full tilt boogy these cases won't last quite as long due to the danger of head seperation. Also Bertram brass sells a 35 WCF case. I don't think Jamison does, but it's been a while since I checked.

BTW, 405 brass is available from Hornady. If I remember correctly there is a slight difference in specs on the case rim of 405 WCF brass and 30-40 Krag as well as 35 WCF brass, but I'd have to go back and double check. Been a while since I looked at them.

Another fun one, (but with little loading data currently available for smokeless rounds) in a modern steel 1895 would be the .38-72.

[db22]

Many thanks to the Wolves for their info and advice on the old .35 WCF, and, as farshooter remarked, back to the Whelen. Has anyone run into the headspace problem with their Whelens, or the .358 Winchester? A while back, NEF made a run of .35 Whelen rifles, and several owners remarked that they suffered occasional misfires due to factory cartridges moving forward when the firing pin struck the primer. NEF was notoriously sloppy in their chambering, which could well be the trouble.

Now that Remington owns the company and makes NEF single-shot rifles in Ilion, this issue may be cleared up. Some of the Handi-Rifle cranks over at the Graybeard board have been petitioning Remington to offer the Whelen again, and if they do, I will make a point of adding one to my little armory.

[farshooter]

db22, I have never had a headspace problem with my Model 54, re chambered to .35 Whelen. My gunsmith did a fine job. He turned the Douglas barrel to meet the original stock and used the original front sight. I mounted a Lyman 48 receiver sight. It's a beauty and its slick action is just fine.

I have never fired new Whelen cases. I formed all my cases in one pass using RCBS dies and 1960s match brass and I don't fire form the brass, just shoot them. It works for me, might not for you. After formed from 30-06 brass they come out a little shorter, about .03 inches, but as we all know it doesn't headspace on the forward end. That's an advantage as I've never had to trim a case. Unlike the Brown-Whelen the shoulder's angle and length to the shoulder stays the same as in the '06 case.

I recommend having your gunsmith barrel a favorite action to .35 Whelen.

Doc Burgess

[DRBOB]

Guys I have a question? I have just built a Rem.721 in a 35 whelen Imp. A friend of mine has molds for two bullets one is a 220 grain witha flat nose and the other is aa 320 grain semi spitzer. I want to use RL-15. Would I be better off to just load the heavier bullet or would you work up another load for the lower weight to use on deer? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also Blammer do you have the name of tyhe guy who modified thst 358009 mold for you? I am new to this sight and to cast bullet shooting so any help is appreciated. Thanks DRBOB

[jimgun]

when I had my ackley whelen build, my smith asked me what boolit I was going to use, so the twist would be correct for it. that 320 gr boolit would need to be a pretty fast twist. I based my twist on the 358009 as the biggest I would shoot and went with a 1:14. i am in no means an expert on this as I am learning more about casting every day, but your twist may be a place to start. good luck jim

[DRBOB]

Jimgun,
when I built mine I was told that for heavier bullets I needed to use a 1 in 12 twist barrel. I am finishing the stock now and getting ready to put everything together and start testing loads. Thanks or the reply DRBOB.

[farshooter]

The 358318 boolit for the .35 Whelen is a good boolit. Mine weighs 250 grains with lube and GC. My mold is a Lyman. If you can find one you might give it a try. I have killed moose, elk, black bear, deer and antelope with it. It works.

Doc Burgess

[insanelupus]

If you are interested in the 358009 (a "holy grail" mould, out of production for quite some time), check out the group buy ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61857 ) that is being honchoed and produced by Night Owl Enterprises (NOE). It should drop a touch larger than the original Lyman moulds and would be just the ticket for what you are going with. I'm not sure I'd go for anything much heavier in the Whelen (even the improved version). But if you do, let us know how it works out.

Just out of curiosity, what is the 220 grain mould he has?


Far shooter (Doc). What kind of velocities are your running that 358318 at for elk, moose, bear, and deer? Also, what was your alloy, distances on game shots, and wound channels like?

That may be my next cast project next spring. Of course I'll also have the new NOE 358009 mould to do some expermintation with then also!

[farshooter]

insanelupus,

Velocity for the 358318 is 2,100 fps. It is a fine boolit. I have shot them at 2,300 fps, but I like my 2,100 fps load the best. Most shots for game have been under 200 yards. I have never lost a head of game. The last moose I shot was at 140 yards. That was on Togwotee Pass in Wyoming. He was broadside, standing, in belly deep snow. The bullet went clear through him and he didn't take a step. The bullet had taken out the top of the aorta right where it comes out of the heart, through the right shoulder blade and exited with a hole the size of the solid that it is. It took out a lot of other stuff along the way. I have not had to shoot any animal more than once. I trace the wound channel in every animal and they all look pretty much the same. I try to put all shots in the chest, no neck or head shots. Sometimes, when they're quartering away, the bullet drives through the heavy water filled stuff and into the chest cavity and usually exits.

This bullet acts like a solid and that's the way I like it. If I wanted it to expand I'd shoot a bigger diameter boolit. That was John Taylor's view and I agree. He used solids for everything except buffalo in a herd. He was concerned that the solid might go through several buffs and wound the last one it hit. Of course I don't have to worry about M'Bogo in a herd.

I cast 358318 using 50-50 ww and lead with 3 percent tin by weight.

I shoot this bullet in all three of my Whelens - the Brown Whelen, the improved Whelen and my favorite, the standard .35 Whelen. The first two I have to fuss with the case forming so I don't hunt with them. With the standard .35 Whelen I just form the case from National Match ought six brass and fire them. Plus it's a simple, elegant, fine rifle built on a model 54 Winchester action. I use the Lyman 48 receiver sight with the 60 minute staff.

Doc Burgess

[insanelupus]

Doc,

That's interesting indeed. Currently I'm launching a 250 grain Nosler Partition at about 2400 fps. I'm REALLY wanting to play around with the 358318 and 358009 next spring after bear season (before for bear season if I have time).

I'm surprised with the alloy of 50/50 WW and PB + SN that the bullet is acting as a solid (which I assume you to mean that there is little to no appreciable expansion of bullet diameter). Of course the round nose design is helpful in that aspect I'm sure. I would have figured that bullet at your velocities would have some expansion.

With such a load, on lighter skinned animals (namely deer and antelope) do you take shoulder shots or staying behind the shoulders (i.e., through the ribs)? I have noticed in the past when hunting elk that bullets intended for elk didn't expand well in deer and those intended for deer did not penetrate as well for elk. Thus the reason I moved to the Partition, though I haven't had a chance to use it on a game animal to date.

If that #358009 design won't stabilize in my 1-16" twist (I am afraid it may not) then I'll definately be looking at the #358318. Thanks for the info.

[farshooter]

insanelupus,

You mentioned the Partition at 2,400 fps. My jacketed load in the .35 Whelen is the 250 grain soft point at 2,550 fps and my solid jacketed for the same rifle is a 300 grain Fred Barnes. I don't shoot these much.

If I go for heavy dangerous game I use my .375 H&H and rarely my .458 mag. For the .375 H&H I make my own core-bonded 270 grain and 300 grain bullets. Core bonded, they act like solids, the lead stays with the jacket, the way I like it. The 270 grain is at 2,700 fps and the 300 grain is at 2,550 fps. But my boolit for the .375 is of 270 grains (375449) at about 2,200 fps. It is of the same mix - 50-50 with 3 percent tin. Usually, they go in one side and out the other.

One boolit of the same mix, 50-50-3%tin, that I recovered was from an elk I shot at about 60 yards. It was from a .357 mag. and of 158 grains. (In pistols I prefer the .44 mag. with the PB 250 grain Keith boolit, 429421) The boolit was under the skin on the off side and as to the wound channel it behaved about like the boolit through the moose. Its nose was blunted, but not expanded, just the way I like it. I use this same mix in all my cast boolits, including for competition.

I have never felt that a boolit ought to expand regardless of velocity, distance or circumstance. Whatever caliber I want when the boolit exits is the caliber I shoot. I like them to stay together and act like a solid, thin skin or thick.

Reading John Taylor's book, "African Rifles and Cartridges" about fifty years ago convinced me that a bullet ought to stay together and not expand although Taylor talks about the "perfect mushroom," and he criticized Keith for Keith's advocacy that the boolit should penetrate through and through. Taylor was of the "energy wasted" school and felt the bullet should stay "inside" to expend its energy. On the penetration, through and through score, I hold with Keith. For North American game a boolit can't break both shoulders unless it penetrates.

Doc Burgess

[DRBOB]

Insanelupus & Farshooter,
The bullet that he has is one that he had a mold made for, and he is in Colorado hunting now so when he gets back I will ask him about the source of the mold.
Farshooter what powder and load are you using with the 358315 bullet.
Thanks DRBOB

[Ben]

db22 :

The key phrase in your previous post is :

NEF was notoriously sloppy in their chambering, which could well be the trouble.

A 35 Whelen or a 358 Win. that is chambered with good tight head space is just as dependable as anyone's 06' or 308 Win.

I have three 358 Win. rifles, with many hundreds of rounds through the three, I've never had a misfire.

Ben

[farshooter]

DRBOB,

My 250 grain .35 Whelen boolit is from a Lyman mold 358318, a boolit designed for the .35 Winchester Model 1895. It works fine for me. I have developed loads with several different powders, but the powder I use most is the one I started with about 50 years ago. I had bought 200 pounds of H4831 at one dollar the pound. That was enough for about 25,000 rounds. I still have several pounds of it left. It is good stuff. I load 55 grains of it with the 358318 boolit. During the early years I took it to 58 grains in steps and those loads weren't as accurate.

3031, 4895, 4064 and 4350 have all worked well for me, but the H4831 is money in the bank.

Doc Burgess