PP homework (measurements and Cig PP)

[Hubertus]

Here is the promised homework.
But let me start with saying that reading this PP forum and the one on marlinowners.com changed my behavior in regards of paper. Thank you guys, whenever I take a book, newspaper or packing paper into my hands I find myself probing it with my fingers for thickness and "patchability". I was recently buying some flowers and found my hand reaching onto the counter to test the pile of packing paper for wrapping the flowers. As soon as I noticed it, I withdraw my hand with an embarrassed smile. Thank you guys! This is getting way out of hand here!

OK, back to the homework.

First I managed to get two types of cigarette paper - which was not too difficult. The problem with normal cig paper is that it's a bit to short for a standard double wrap on the 45; smaller calibers should be no problem. But fortunately they sell longer cig paper too - for what reason I don't care.

Second, I called my mother, which I thought would still have some old dress patterns laying around somewhere. Guess what, she cut a piece out of one, especially for me. :-)

Third, I had the luck to find some copy paper for typewriters, which is put behind the ink foil. It is the thin original one, which I suppose is referred to as onion skin. It measures 30g/sqm which is 9# paper if I read wiki right. The clerk had to open a drawer under the counter and reach for it - so it looks like some stores still have it. It is maybe old stock. I don't know, because in my hometown I couldn't get it and they told me it is out of production. I was lucky on my vacation. You see even when I am supposed to relax; still I am on the hunt for paper.


Measurement:
I took 10 sheets of each paper (except dress pattern, which I folded to get 8 layers) and measured 10 times in different places recording the minimum, maximum and average reading of the mike. Here are the results: (sorry, I am a metric guy having a metric mike, but will put the calculated non-metric values in brackets) :-)

Onion skin:
0,031 mm … 0,032 mm [0.0012" … 0.0013", average: 0.0012"]

Printed dress pattern:
0,027 mm … 0,029 mm [0.0011" … 0.0012", average: 0.0011"]

Cigarette paper Indian, no bleaching 100% hemp fiber standard length:
0,022 mm … 0,023 mm [0.00087" … 0.0009", average: 0.0009"]

Cigarette paper OCB slim premium (extra length):
0,015 mm … 0,017 mm [0.00059" … 0.00066", average: 0.0006"]


Having measured the boolits on hand I decided to go with the .457 340 grain Lee FP. I went trough a similar routine, took 10 boolits and miked them with the average of 11,61 mm [0.457"].

Decision time:
Taking four times 0.0006" the OCB cig paper should give me an increase of 0.0024" to the .457 which would still hold me in the ball park under .460. The barrel of my 45-70 will be slugged today, but of course I could not wait to try the patching ;-). See the results attached.


A few side notes:
It might not have been the easiest way to start patching because the cig paper, once wet, tears and wrinkles quite easily. But still I managed to get all 10 test boolits patched.
Using a white surface to put the wet patch on for the wrapping is a bad idea, because the paper will be translucent and barely recognizable once put on the surface, guess how I found out [smilie=b:.
After a few minutes you get the feel and it works quite smoothly.
Everybody wrote to find the patch length first, but I guess I had to find out by myself. I just downloaded a patch template from marlinowners.com (courtesy of Hudson). I suppose the templates are for thicker paper that stretches more. My patches are a bit short and show a gap of 3 mm (see pic). I will have to adjust the length.
Drying takes about 3 to 4 hours.


Result:
Originally I only did this test to find out the patched diameter. But looking at the finished product minus the 4 rejects (wrinkles and torn) I feel the urge to load them and try how they work. The 10 wrapped boolits measure an average of .4599". What do you think, depending on the outcome of the barrel slug measurement, shall I shoot them? (Right now I only have smokeless powder available.)

If yes, the next problem arises: should I apply a form of grease/lube and if so which? I did spend some thoughts on that and here is what I have on hand:
Olive oil
Canola oil
Jojoba oil
Pure bees wax
Anhydrous lanolin
Paraffin HT (liquid)
Felix lube derivate
Lee case lube
Spray on oil with high lanolin content (usually for gun cleaning and preservation)

What is your turn on this?

Another question I have is: how do your patches behave when you try to tear them off? I noticed, though only patched with pure water that the cig patches really stick to the bullet. Tearing them only brings off small flakes. Chances are the patch will stay on and not tear off at the muzzle.

Sorry for the lengthy thread and my English.
Hubertus

[docone31]

The only lube I use is regular Auto Wax during sizing. I do not lube my patches for firing.
I suspect, once the patches are totally dry, they won't come off in flakes during firing also.
The paper really sticks to itself when wet during patching. It is very stable during sizeing. I have some patched .308 boolitts awaiting loading. That patches are stationary, just sitting there. It has been some months now since I wrapped them.
I found, regular lined notebook paper makes great patch material!
I also have found I look at "sources" for patching. It is not that I am worried there will be no more notebook paper. I just look.
I made plastic templates from broken ends of Venetian Blinds. Our Bengal Cats love to sit on the window sill. All our blinds have one lower corner broken off. I took the pieces and cut a few to lay the paper on and just snip. I can adjust the length of the patch by snipping the piece of blind untill I get exactly the length I need. I can also adjust the angle(s) so they meet dead on.
Good luck

[1874Sharps]

Hubertus,

Congratulations on all the work you have done, mein Freund. I am sure you will soon be rewarded by the sweet success that is almost sure to come, too. Your English is also better than many who speak it as the native language. Hertzlichen Gluckwunsch!

[Hubertus]

1874Sharps, danke fuer das Kompliment. Ihr Deutsch ist aber auch sehr gut!
Wo haben Sie Deutsch gelernt?

Thank you for your replies.
I am working on it and we'll see what the range results will show. I might not be able to get to the range until the end of next week.

What about the lube? Do you apply any for the shooting or do you shoot dry?

Regards, Hubertus

[303Guy]

I have tried a cig paper called 'rice paper'. I don't know if it is actually rice paper. Anyway, it does stick to the boolit like glue! I tried lubing my patched boolits with molten 'waxy-lube' and found it capapble of staying on the boolit even at the end of its catch medium penetration! I did not have any accuracy success with cig paper but the bore did come out real clean so at least the cig paper was doing that part of its job.

I have since made a paper patch dimentioned mold so I don't need the thin paper. It was quite challenging and fun wraping wet cig paper though!:mrgreen: I found quite a successful way of doing it.

My other trials have been with tracing paper which I believe is "vellum" - 100% cotton paper. This stuff is strong wet or dry. I have not had great success with it but that is in a two-groove rifle and I suspect the two-groove is the challenge. I am pursuing that rifle because it is my 'go to' bush rifle.

My favourite paper to wrap is lined note pad paper. I have also learned how to wrap it dry. My next step is to replace my melting pot, cast some primes, do some different wraps and test!

The important thing is I have been having fun!:mrgreen:

I'm looking forward to your field results.:drinks:

P.S. I also check out all the different papers for patching qualities!

[montana_charlie]

Decision time:
Taking four times 0.0006" the OCB cig paper should give me an increase of 0.0024" to the .457 which would still hold me in the ball park under .460. The barrel of my 45-70 will be slugged today, but of course I could not wait to try the patching ;-). See the results attached.
Adding .0024" to the .457 diameter results in a patched-to diameter of .4594". Dividing the .0024" increase in half, leaves you with a patch thickness of .0012".

The steel of your bore's groove diameter is separated from the lead in the bullet by only .0012", and I bet your rifling is deeper than that.

You may have the lands slicing all the way into the lead of the bullet.
If it happens, any lead left in the bore will probably come out with relative ease, but it is not the ideal result when paper patching.

The more common dimensional trickery is to start with a bullet of .450" diameter...or 2 thousandths more...and patch that with (about) .002" paper to bring the diameter up to (near) .460".

A .450" bullet wrapped with the 'onionskin' you found would be a reasonable combination, I think.

Result:
Originally I only did this test to find out the patched diameter. But looking at the finished product minus the 4 rejects (wrinkles and torn) I feel the urge to load them and try how they work. The 10 wrapped boolits measure an average of .4599". What do you think, depending on the outcome of the barrel slug measurement, shall I shoot them? (Right now I only have smokeless powder available.)
I am currently trying to make patched-to-groove bullets work well with black powder. Many tell me I will fail.
Smokeless powder is the 'normal' choice for groove diameter bullets such as yours.

If yes, the next problem arises: should I apply a form of grease/lube and if so which?
You should not need a lube. One responsibility of bullet lube is to help prevent leading. Paper is supposed to handle that, instead.
The other function of bullet lube is to keep powder fouling soft and moist. Using smokeless powder removes that requirement.

Another question I have is: how do your patches behave when you try to tear them off? I noticed, though only patched with pure water that the cig patches really stick to the bullet. Tearing them only brings off small flakes. Chances are the patch will stay on and not tear off at the muzzle.
You aren't looking at a dangerous situation, but it may affect accuracy if a patch (or worse, part of a patch) rides the bullet to the target.

Sorry for the lengthy thread and my English.
I enjoy length because it provides detail. It's hard to formulate answers when details are sketchy.

I 'gelernt' my German around Spangdahlem and Birkenfeld, but I never spoke it as well as you write English...

CM

[1874Sharps]

Hubertus,

In Mittschule und Hochschule habe ich Deutsch studieren, aber jetzt ist das 30 Jahren. In Universitaet habe ich Chemie studierte und also Deutsh (die weitbekannte Wissenschaftler sind Deutsch). Ich lese die Heilige Schrift auf Deustch und das ist eine Hilfe. Meine Frau und ich werden unserer Sohn in Deutschland um 90 Tagen besuchen. Er is Soldat und in Iraq jetzt und wird dann nach Schweinfurt wieder kommen. Wo in Deutschland wohnen Sie? Ich glaube das Schweinfurt ist suedlich Deutshland.

Erfolg mit dem "paper patch" kommt mir nicht ohne viele ausprobieren! Sie werden auch Erfolg haben!

[Hubertus]

Thank you for the nice replies, the time you took to answer it and the good reading material. A little bit of assurance is always nice to get, so one knows to be on the right track or at least close to it :)

303 I am looking forward to the range time too, we’ll see what it brings :Fire:

Montana_charlie and 1874Sharps it almost looks like we can start a German speaking sub-forum :wink:
Montana_charlie - thank you for the diameter walk through. For the bore/groove difference you might be right. I will measure it, to give me an idea. The range test will show, whether there will be leading, hopefully not. Thank you again for your input, it is much appreciated.

It is only lately that I am tinkering with lead boolits but I've read quite a bit on this and other forums. I always wanted a cal 45 rifle, I don't know actually where the interest is coming from, it's just been there for a couple of years. Then last year my in-laws did a vacation in the U.S. and brought back a book about the Old West with beautiful Sharps and Rolling Block rifles in it. Here comes again the need for such a fine tool :-D. I started reading about BPCR and hunting with those rifles and just wanted one.
Looking to buy a Pedersoli Sharps replica, not to speak of a real Sharps – I found even those where out of my budget. But one day I went into a local shop and they had a used Pedersoli Roller in .45-70Gov there. Showing interest to buy it the owner proposed that he would lend it to me for 3 weeks so I could do some test shooting. Wow! I bought a box of Federal factory ammo, I know shame on me, but I needed fodder for it. There was a short/midrange Pedersoli vernier sight mounted and a front blade. I managed quite reasonable shooting with this at 100m and was sold to it. Now comes the tricky part, I talked to my wife and said I would try to get the price down a bit; she finally said she would give it to me as a birthday present. Wow again! :mrgreen:
So the next day found me back to the shop, some talking and the rifle went home with me including the sight. So I think it is a reasonable thing to start with, of course on a budget. Why do I tell you this? Just to give you an insight where I'm starting.
I’ve read quite a number of reloading publications and do have success with reloaded jacketed .30-06 ammo for shooting and hunting. Of course the tapered 45-70 cartridge is a different thing. Reading all the stories about the ways shooting the 1870 era rifles brought me to start out the boolit way instead of going down the J-word route with the Roller. The only problem for me is that I just started. I do have the reloading necessities but no casting equipment; still I want to play and get the thing to shoot with boolits. So I searched online and found a private supplier of cast boolits, which is not so easy here. They are looking to be made with Lee moulds. OK, I bought 100x 500 gr 3R in .459 and 100x 340 gr FP in .457.
Reading the board and checking with Felix I made a batch of a FWFL derivate with some substitutes. Thanks Felix. This will be tested, too. Unfortunately I didn’t have much luck with pan lubing and ended up applying the lube by hand on each boolit – it worked quite well :-?. But ever since I read about the big ol’ 45 I was intrigued with the idea of PP – so here we go. I do understand the idea of PP taking a smaller diameter boolit and bring it up with the right thickness of paper, but neither do I have a sizer to reduce the diameter nor casting means to cast my own .450 boolits. Therefore I went with the smallest diameter I have and tried to find the thinnest paper. The preliminary result is to be seen in previously posted pic. But the range will tell another story. :Fire:



1874Sharps, I am living about 150 km away from Schweinfurt that should be about 94 to 95 miles. Just le me know your plans and how long you will be staying, maybe we can meet. It’s just an option and I totally understand that you most probably will want to spent quality time with your brave son.


Hubertus

[montana_charlie]

Hubertus,
I fully understand how a picture in a magazine can stick in your mind for years...until you finally succumb to the desire to own something like a 'primitive' rifle. It was like that for me when I got the bug for a 'Hawken'.

I was living in Niederkail, and working at the Spangdahlem Air Base when I acquired my birthday present. Of course, round lead balls are not something you find in any store.

For my schwarze pulver I had to drive to Luxembourg, where I could buy a half-kilo in a small brown paper sack.
Maker unknown, quality unknown, and the fouling it left was hard, dry, and crusty.

There was (is) a tradition in Niederkail in which everybody in town would put all of their unwanted items out on the curb in front of their houses...on one particular 'trash day' during the year.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, and I discovered a neighbor was discarding an electric hotplate. With a small amount of work, I made both elements serviceable. The addition of a small (ten-pound) cast iron pot and casting ladel put me in the bullet casting business. And, I used only that equipment for years...even after returning to the States.

Casting bullets can be (or can seem) complicated. But, it doesn't have to be.

When your next birthday rolls around, your wife and I should discuss a bullet mould I have...

CM

[303Guy]

That was intersting reading, Hubertus. You know, you might be able to chamber an oversize boolit. My boolits are sized to seat in an unsized neck and swage down on entering the throat! (8.10mm stepping down to 7.80mm on the bore rider section - the bore is larger at the breach, 7.70mm at the muzzle. This for a groove diameter of 7.95mm and a throat diameter of 8.03mm). Recovered boolits show no ill effects. Since a 45-70 holds most of the boolit in the case, you might just be able to patch what you have with note-pad paper and shoot 'em!

[Hubertus]

Hello I am back again with some measurements.

But first let me say thanks 303Guy for the tip – I was thinking about using thicker patches but just didn’t dare to do it. I am a bit weary of blow ups, you know. So I figured after the first attempt with the thin paper, I would slowly increase diameter by using the thicker paper and doing single wraps and than double wraps and so on, to get a certain granularity similar to a loading ladder. I don’t know whether I will be doing it, we’ll see. Though the boolits are quite soft it might work.

Montana_charlie, yes such pictures linger long and the desire as well. Sometimes you succumb right away but sometimes you have to wait until the opportunity arises. There are a lot of nice things to spend money on and the more you read, especially this forum, the more ideas you get.:idea:
I looked up the airbase and your former living area on the net. I’ve actually never been there. I suppose you where with the Air Force. When and for how long did you stay in Germany – sorry, I think I am getting a little too curious here. :oops:These days it is possible to get BP (nice that you are using German words) in Germany, but everything regarding weapons, ammunition and powder is quite strict. You need certain permissions to get guns, BP and SP. Plus it is getting worse year by year.
You are making me curious about the mold you want to talk about with my wife. Of course I am thinking about starting to cast my own, since I am reading this forum. Your idea with a hot plate is good. The newer hot plates sold here have maximum 250 °C (482°F) for safety reasons. I don’t know whether this is sufficient. I might be able to borrow an old one from a friend. I’ve seen some good ideas with gas camps stoves on the casting board. Unfortunately I don’t have much space and backyard or garden. The neighbors would be quite curious what I am doing, no good. I do have a small balcony but don’t think I could do it there. It is to close to the living area. Anyway I am still thinking about it and ideas are much appreciated.

Ok, back to the measurements. Today I took the time to mike the lead ball from the barrel slug. The bore diameter is 11,46 mm [0.4512”] the groove is 11,60 mm [0.4567”]. The ball is of quite good oversize and the imprints are good so I think the measurement is quite accurate. Comparing with other post I would say it is quite tight.
Can this be a problem with .459 patched boolits? Most probably in the accuracy department or worse - safety?
MC Of course you won the bet about the groove/bore difference – no wonder with your experience. If we ever get to meet the beer is on me.

Hubertus

[303Guy]

Here is a thought. Just a possible way to seat cast or patched or any bullet for that matter. This is how I load my 22 hornet and I have tried it with my 303 Brit. The case is unsized. It does work. It's no good for magazine feed in the 303 Brit but is good in the hornet. It should work great for a single shot 45-70.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpg


The seating paper is ordinary paper hand towel. In the case of the hornet, the seated bullet gets dipped into molten 'waxy lube' which soaks up into the paper seating cup and bonds it firmly in place. There would be no need for that with a 45-70, in fact it would be undesirable as it would also soak into the paper patch and 'glue' it to the casting.

Recovered bullets.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-580F_edited.jpg

One can see there is no impression left by the paper cup. These are .224 bullets fired in a .223 bore. Accuracy is very good. Anschutz 1431/32.

[montana_charlie]

I was thinking about using thicker patches but just didn’t dare to do it. I am a bit weary of blow ups, you know.
Don't be afraid. The critical part of choosing a paper thickness comes in being able to easily chamber the patched bullet, and do that without disturbing the patch. If you can get it in the chamber unrumpled, a soft bullet will reshape to allow itself, and the paper, to fit in the more confined dimensions of the bore.

Montana_charlie,
I looked up the airbase and your former living area on the net. I’ve actually never been there. I suppose you where with the Air Force. When and for how long did you stay in Germany – sorry, I think I am getting a little too curious here. :oops:
Not a problem. I was there (with my wife) from the spring of 1973 until the spring of 1976, and I was an Air Force member. It was my second trip to Germany, and the first was from summer, 1966 through summer, 1969. It was during that stay in Birkenfeld that I met my (future) wife...who is Spanish, not German. We married soon after our (simultaneous but separate) returns to the States in 1969.

You are making me curious about the mold you want to talk about with my wife. Of course I am thinking about starting to cast my own, since I am reading this forum. Your idea with a hot plate is good. The newer hot plates sold here have maximum 250 °C (482°F) for safety reasons. I don’t know whether this is sufficient. I might be able to borrow an old one from a friend.
It would not be sufficient.
If you have a friend with an 'old one' which will reach (at least) 700 degrees F, you might consider buying him a 'modern' one in exchange for his 'antique'.

Unfortunately I don’t have much space and backyard or garden. The neighbors would be quite curious what I am doing, no good. I do have a small balcony but don’t think I could do it there. It is to close to the living area. Anyway I am still thinking about it and ideas are much appreciated.
Not much space is required. A sturdy table with a half of a square meter of surface is easily sufficient for a hotplate (or electric furnace) and the folded pad to drop bullets on. A dual-element hotplate also provides the advantage of setting the other burner to a good temperature for preheating the mould, and fresh ingots.
If the table can be folded for storage, it might even be used on your small balcony...with a closed door to separate the living area from any smoke.

Ok, back to the measurements. Today I took the time to mike the lead ball from the barrel slug. The bore diameter is 11,46 mm [0.4512”] the groove is 11,60 mm [0.4567”]. The ball is of quite good oversize and the imprints are good so I think the measurement is quite accurate. Comparing with other post I would say it is quite tight.
Can this be a problem with .459 patched boolits? Most probably in the accuracy department or worse - safety?
A bullet patched to .459" will fire safely if it can be chambered easily. Whether that patched-to diameter will be accurate is anybody's guess.

It appears that you would like to patch to (about) .457". A .450" bullet wrapped wet with your onionskin paper might come very close to that...or a tad smaller.
Wrapping wet allows the paper to stretch...which makes it slightly thinner. You can play with 'wetness' and 'tension' to make small adjustments in 'thickness'.

The onionskin paper I have used does not return to it's original thickness as it dries.
CM

[Hubertus]

303Guy and montana_charlie, thank you again.

It is always very interesting to read your posts and again I learned a lot.
303Guy, good idea – you are really full of ideas. Is this “seating patch” sucked out by the bullet through the barrel or does get stuck? Did you have fouling problems?
If I cant get the oversized ones to chamber, I will try this. So oversized does work even with jacketed, of course in boundaries. To what level do you load the .224?

Montana_charlie, thank you for the assurance. I will play with the seating depth and have and eye on the patches. Once the first batch is through the barrel I will try using the thicker paper as well as proposed by you and 303 and see how the .457 boolits behave. For smaller diameter boolits you are proposing to patch up to around .457. Taking the 0.0012” as the average thickness of the paper wouldn’t it be rather around .452 for the starting diameter or do I miss something?

For the hotplate, I found that not all newer ones are limited in the temperature (all the ones I looked at in the local shop where). On eBay I found a few even going up to 500°C [932°F]. Maybe I’ll try it. I was just concerned about fumes and dust layering on the balcony and contaminating it, rendering it useless for other activities.


I know I might not be able to pull it through but I ask anyway. I was reading a bit about the homemade moulds on this forum. Although I don’t have a lot of tooling equipment I might be able to find somebody doing it. I am following some auctions on eBay and other online brokers. If I bought a Lee mould say something like that C430-310-RF or smaller diameter. It should be possible to use this as a basis and drill and ream out to desired dimensions of a PP boolit, shouldn’t it? As long as the block is big enough, what could be problems?

303 please keep posting those good pics.

Hubertus

[303Guy]

Is this “seating patch” sucked out by the bullet through the barrel or does get stuck? The bore remains very clean with no copper fouling. That may be due to the 'waxy-lube'. I did monitor the bore for paper bits remaining but never found any. I never found any traces of it in my 'test tube' either. The 'waxy-lube' did leave a residue in the bore which protected against rust throughout the wet winter months. (I monitored it regularly). Now I run a bore brush dipped in Hoppe's #9 through all my rifle bores before putting them away. (Paper patching cleans the bore!)

[montana_charlie]

Montana_charlie,
For smaller diameter boolits you are proposing to patch up to around .457. Taking the 0.0012” as the average thickness of the paper wouldn’t it be rather around .452 for the starting diameter or do I miss something?
I'm a loudmouth, so I can't help talking. That means I answer a lot of questions...some of them of a 'technical' nature. Often, I rely on memory when answering, and (without going back to look) I remembered that you have some 'onionskin' paper, and that you had calculated it to be 9-pound paper.
My "9-pound onionskin" is .0019" thick, so that is the number that was in the front of my mind when thinking about your patch/bullet combination.

Two layers of my paper, wrapped dry on a .452" bullet, results in a finished diameter of .4575"...which is a snug (not tight) fit in the mouth of a fired case.
I can 'twirl' it into the case mouth without damaging the paper, and it is just enough 'undersize' to slip easily into the .460" freebore of my Pedersoli chamber.

Yes, my 'package' is a couple thousandths undersized for the freebore. That is usually a no-no where cast bullets are concerned, but paper patching prevents the leading that undersized bullets cause when fired naked.
Because I use BP under soft bullets, I believe that mine bump-up immediately...before even starting to move out of the case...and fill that last 2 or 3 thousandths of space in the freebore. I believe the wad combination I use maintains a gas seal until that obturation is complete.

I have two PP moulds, both custom jobs from (different) master mould makers. I thought I wanted a .450" diameter, and the .452" mould was actually a 'miscalculation' by the maker. The other one is right on at .450"...but I am not using it because the larger size actually fits my needs better.

When you posted the internal dimensions of your barrel, the thought crossed my mind that the .450" might fit your gun better than mine...all else being equal.

The details that I tend to forget...the ones that would make all else equal...are (1) you don't use black powder, and (2) your paper doesn't seem to be as thick as mine.

However, thicker paper does exist on the planet, and the mould is of a suitable size for paper patching to groove diameter...which is common for shooting PP with smokeless powder.

I don't know if your rifle would like a 'package' that is a couple thousandths undersized. Heck, I don't even know if mine does.
But, I have seen some good results scattered among the not-so-good, and I am still in the early stages of load development...with a dozen variables waiting to be tried.

For the hotplate,
Maybe I’ll try it. I was just concerned about fumes and dust layering on the balcony and contaminating it, rendering it useless for other activities.
Many of us do our casting away from the common living area. But the reasons for that are only in small part connected to 'environmental cleanliness'.
Yes, sometimes odors or smoke are generated, and those are most easily avoided in the open air. But, ventilation can suffice.
Keeping molten metal away from family members is another reason for seeking seclusion for casting. But, there is always the solution where you take the 'family member' far away enough to be safe...and nail his/her feet to the floor.
If you only secure one foot, the loved one can still get some exercise by running in a circle.

But, the primary reason for using a 'remote location' for casting bullets...and I think most will agree...is so other people can't play with our toys!

We go to a lot of effort to pile certain alloys in a given stack...or to segregate certain bullets for a special purpose...or any number of other practices-which-promote-perfection...and we don't want anybody SCREWING WITH OUR STUFF!

As for cleanliness...
Some guys are neat, and some are sloppy. There will always be those bits of 'splashed' lead that need to be cleaned up, but there is not much 'dust' generated by casting bullets.
What 'dust' does exist is the fine powder left after fluxing the pot, and that is a rather dense substance which is not prone to blow away...or float around in the atmosphere.

The 'splashes' can be caught on something that covers your surrounding surfaces, making cleanup easier. An old piece of canvas makes a decent floor covering, and it can be rolled up and stored between sessions.

CM

[softpoint]

I size the 340 grain Lee in a .457 die, then wrap with 2 full wraps of tracing paper, let dry, smear a little of some kind of lube, either Johnson's Paste wax or Kiwi Mink oil, and size thru a .4595 die (a Lee .457 I lapped out) that sizes my bullets back down to the correct diameter. They work fine at any velocity out of 2 Marlin 45/70's and a Browning B78.:coffee:

[303Guy]

The 'splashes' can be caught on something that covers your surrounding surfaces,You definately don't want to splash molten lead or drop a hot casting onto the vinyl kitchen floor! Now how would I know that? [smilie=1: Not by logical thought process! No. :oops:

[Hubertus]

Again all of you provided a very good read, thank you. :coffee:
With this information you are slowly bringing me to want to start casting. It might be possible to use a hotplate and a cast iron pot on my balcony with care and crank out some boolits, low volume. That is all I need. I will investigate prices and availability - ebay is your friend :D

Softpoint, I am glad that this works for you. I don’t have the sizing dies. Call me cheapo but tying up about $70 in 2 sizing dies ending up not using/needing them in the future was a bit much, so I tried to investigate other possibilities. Yes, your eyes are not failing you a Lee sizing die costs about 26 Euro plus shipping :evil:.

303 can you tell me how those splashes got onto your kitchen floor ????? :)

Montana_charlie .450 sounds good and yes I am sure there is paper available. I could try 303s and others lined notebook recommendation. You are saying it is a custom mould (I read fancy aka expensive)? You sparked my interest if you like you can send me a message. But first I have to shoot the bought boolits out of the Roller and see what it looks like.

So back from the hopefully beautiful casting future to the current tasks:
Following 303 and MC I decided to use the typewriter copy paper (onionskin) and make some PP for the session this week. It worked beautiful; I only had 1 or 2 rejects. The paper is of course much stronger than cig paper but in case you don’t pay attention it tears as well. I made a template of thick cardboard (didn’t have any Venetian blind remnants, docone31) and adjusted length until I was satisfied, cutting was no issue. In the end I do learn sometimes :wink: In lack of a patching board I found that a magazine cover (preferably hunting or shooting magazine) works well. The smooth surface of the cover allows you to put the wet paper straight onto the surface and the impregnation is very good. The pages provide a good padding underneath. The patch goes on nicely. One can draw alignment lines and after a few sessions you can just discard it.

Having 50 pieces of new Winchester brass and some odd used Federal I had quite a bit of work to do. I drew out my reloading case. Using Lee Handpress and other tools by Lyman and Lee, I sized trimmed, chamfered the cases, deburred the flash holes and flared. My fingers are still sore. After that I loaded 45 rounds with 4 different types of boolits (PP or lubed) and increasing charges of IMR3031 all weighed and trickled by hand. You will see in the range report soon to follow…
Of course before actually making the rounds I checked the maximum OAL possible with every boolit and decided what the OALs for the tests should be. I prepped a dummy for every one I wanted to use and tried to chamber it. Guess what it worked, every single one. Even the thick paper chambered without any problems. The patched-to diameter is .4615” average with a maximum of .4622”. I think I will give them a try.
Not a single patch was destroyed in the seating action, they just stayed on. It was really smooth. Did I do something wrong?:confused:

The only issue was the 500grain 3R boolit. I lubed it with my Felix lube derivate, so no PP here. But the inner diameter of the seating die is too small. I can back-out the die enough to still have good guiding in the body and seat the bullet, but crimping/removing bell doesn’t work – the die has to go in further to reach the crimp shoulder but then it shears the bullet. But that is another story I might start a thread on in the Reloading board. Maybe getting a Factory Crimp could help here.



Range report to follow.

Hubertus

[1874Sharps]

Hubertus,

My daughter-in-law is here in Corpus visiting us right now. I would love to send some 520 grain paper patch boolits (already patched) back to Germany with her to mail to you when she gets back next week or so. If you will send me your address in a PM, then I will address the box and she will mail it to you upon arrival in Schweinfurt. The boolits have worked well with both smokeless and black powder, although originally designed for black.

[runfiverun]

i wouldn't worry about the crimp, you have enough neck tension.
and it is a single shot. i definately would NOT crimp the p/p boolits.

[1874Sharps]

Hubertus,

I think you are well on the way to becoming a PP Meister! I found with my 45-70 loading that even a fairly light roll crimp could damage or even cut the patch and destroy accuracy. Even if the case mouth flare is not fully turned back to being straight it should not matter for your singleshot. In fact, just a little bell at the mouth may even be beneficial (at least it did not seem to hurt anything in my Sharps).

[303Guy]

In fact, just a little bell at the mouth may even be beneficial ...I would have thought so too. Especially in a chamber that has a shallow taper in the chamber toward the 'neck', like my hornet. The chamber will 'size' any excess bell away (if there was an excess).

[montana_charlie]

I agree.
If the flared mouth will chamber without difficulty, there is no pressing need to remove it.
CM

[Hubertus]

Hi there.
Why didn't I think of that in the first place:rolleyes:

Well, as soon as I read the post I got out the dummy with the 500 grain boolit and the rifle. The case still has the bell. It doesn't work. Too much of a flare or the chamber is too tight - depending on the way you put it. The cartridge goes in only half ways and I don't want to force it. When I flared the cases I constantly checked with a boolit not to overdo it - so I think it is ok. It's just a tad opened, so that the boolits get in without problems.

I still have an idea that I could not try, yet. I'll let you know, whether this worked.

By the way, yesterday was range day.
I am still compiling my range report. Only so much for now. I've seen confetti [smilie=p::

Hubertus

[montana_charlie]

I still have an idea that I could not try, yet. I'll let you know, whether this worked.
If it doesn't, this will...

Pull the depriming pin out of your full-length sizing die.
Back the die out of the press about seven turns.
Run the loaded round up into the die, then screw the die into the press until you feel resistance.
Drop the ram a bit and screw the die deeper by an eighth of a turn.
Run the ram up, then look at the case and bullet to see which made contact with the die interior.

If the bullet is clean, keep setting the die deeper till you get what you need.

You should be able to remove the flare this way...and it even works when you bulge the case neck with the wrong kind of wad under the bullet. However, that requires the bullet to be removed.

Of course, the easy solution to the flare is a stand-alone taper crimp die...

CM

[Hubertus]

If it doesn't, this will...

Pull the depriming pin out of your full-length sizing die.
Back the die out of the press about seven turns.
Run the loaded round up into the die, then screw the die into the press until you feel resistance.
Drop the ram a bit and screw the die deeper by an eighth of a turn.
Run the ram up, then look at the case and bullet to see which made contact with the die interior.

If the bullet is clean, keep setting the die deeper till you get what you need.

You should be able to remove the flare this way...and it even works when you bulge the case neck with the wrong kind of wad under the bullet. However, that requires the bullet to be removed.
...

CM


That was exactly what I had in mind. Your description helped a lot to think it through. Meanwhile I tried it and it removed the flare, which is good.
But still the dummy round doesn't fit.

I think it is a bad combination thing going on here.
The oversized boolit expands the case mouth and gets deformed. In the end it becomes out-of-round and doesn't fit. I don't have an M die (only Lee).
Right now I have 6 dummy rounds that don't fit. [smilie=b:

So back to start:
I checked maximum overall length, still the same. Chambered a sized, unsized case, both fit without bell.

The last idea I have is to use a fire formed unsized case, put a small bell or leave it as is and finger seat the 500gr 3R boolit. The question now is: do I need to put a crimp to aid the powder burning? I read that the BP folks do this a lot, just seat and shoot. But BP burns differently, as I read. 303Guy does his paper cup trick...

So anybody ideas?

Hubertus