Short barreled 357Mag/38Spl loads?

[kelbro]

I have seen this 'new' ammo pop up being marketed as 'short barrel loads'. Plenty of power without the huge muzzle flash. Interesting since my nightstand pistol is a ported 357 snubby that looks like a top fuel dragster when fired at night. Anybody have any experience duplicating these with cast loads? What powders/bullets?

Thanks.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I have seen this 'new' ammo pop up being marketed as 'short barrel loads'. Plenty of power without the huge muzzle flash.
That IS interesting.

Interesting since my nightstand pistol is a ported 357 snubby that looks like a top fuel dragster when fired at night. Anybody have any experience duplicating these with cast loads? What powders/bullets?

What immediately comes to mind is a small charge of Bullseye or Clays with a magnum primer and a 158gr boolit. The relatively heavy boolit will keep the powder in the cylinder until it's pretty well burned up; thus no flash from the muzzle.

However, this could lead to VERY high chamber pressures. It would be unwise to experiment with such loads unless one had access to laboratory equipment.

[kelbro]

One of my loads is 158s over 4.5 gr Clays @ roughly 1Kfps. Hodgdon starts off at 3.2 so that might work.

[Ohio Rusty]

I've been interested in getting a different ccw pistol other than my P3AT. I've been studying all the small autos and what really I like best is S&W's MP 360 ...the 13.5 ounce model in .357. Now it's a matter of finding one at the right price and start making reloads for it. I have a hollowpoint mould, a 148 button nose wadctuuer mould and a 125 gr RNFP mould, all for .38 or .357.
I hope to find the pistol sometime in the next couple of months as I have the boolets cast and the brass all cleaned and sized. I've always enjoyed small snubbies and I look forward to owning another.

KelBro: I have a link saved with lots of load data from another online gunsite for snubby loads. I can send you the link offlist if you are interested in looking at the authors data. Send me a PM if interested.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[S.R.Custom]

I have seen this 'new' ammo pop up being marketed as 'short barrel loads'. Plenty of power without the huge muzzle flash...Anybody have any experience duplicating these with cast loads? What powders/bullets?

This really isn't new... IMR 4756 has long been a cult favorite for getting the most out of short barreled .38s and .357s. It's a single base powder, so there's not a lot of flash, and just slow enough (akin to Herco) to get some really nice velocities.

One of my favorites using this is the Hornady 125 gr. XTP over 8.4 grs of 4756. It gives a chronographed average of 1168 fps from a 3" S&W 386. Yeah, it's a jacketed bullet, but I've never had much luck in the accuracy department pushing a 125 gr. lead bullet that hard, and the XTP/4756 load is quite accurate indeed.

[lylejb]

I think the only thing "new" about "short barrel loads" is the advertising.

This is simply a load with a fast burning powder.

The highest velocity book loads typically use the slowest burning powder, and in a long barrel, that's fine. In a snubby, the bullet / boolit exits the bbl before the powder has finished burning. The remaining powder burns off in mid air, hence the flash.

open a reloading manual, pick a load with fast burning powder, like bullseye, red dot, 700x. Try a few, see which one works best in your gun.

That's your new short barrel load, no advertising required:mrgreen:

[Rocky Raab]

Lyle is right about everything except that "powder burning in mid-air" thing, which is a myth. A really persistent myth, but a myth nonetheless.

A moderate charge (no magnum primer needed or wanted) of a fast-burning powder that has a flash suppressant added is all you need. Powders designed for defense or military ammo almost always have a flash suppressant. W231 is one good example, even though it is neither a flake nor a single-base powder.

Power Pistol is a counter example. It was designed for handgun games, and no flash suppressant is added. It makes huge fireballs, even in daylight.

[fireflyfather]

Actually, the idea behind the short-barreled loads is usually a matter of bullet constuction, although they are, of course, placed atop a charge of fast powder.

The speer GDHP 135gr short barrel load uses a hollowpoint designed to open reliably at lower velocities. The reason for this is obvious: Short barrels mean lower velocity, and less reliable expansion with traditional hollowpoints.

[theperfessor]

There was an article in one of the gun rags a while back that showed a lot of photos of the muzzle flash from various factory loads in four or five different guns. The differences were dramatic. Some of the loads had a mild red glow while other produced huge white/yellow fireballs, and several showed "flaming embers" of particles tracing erratic paths from the muzzle.

Maybe somebody has the info on the mag/issue this was in.

Might be interesting to do a test to rate various canister powders for this quality.

[fredj338]

I think the only thing "new" about "short barrel loads" is the advertising.

This is simply a load with a fast burning powder.

The highest velocity book loads typically use the slowest burning powder, and in a long barrel, that's fine. In a snubby, the bullet / boolit exits the bbl before the powder has finished burning. The remaining powder burns off in mid air, hence the flash.

open a reloading manual, pick a load with fast burning powder, like bullseye, red dot, 700x. Try a few, see which one works best in your gun.

That's your new short barrel load, no advertising required:mrgreen:Not really true. The SB loads have diff designed JHP that is larger & will expand @ lower vel. It's tough to duplicate the SB 357mag load w/ a cast bullet as it is 135grGDSBHP. It's easy to duplicate w/ SPeer 135grGDHP, same for the 45acp except you can get a 230gr anything to go 825fps.

[Grampie not Grumpie]

If I may insert an opinion: rather than a light alloy stubby for the nightstand I would look at a Ruger SP101. It weighs considerable more yet is compact and is all stainless steel. I have one and my wife has a S&W Airweight that weighs 10+ oz. less, mine is much more comfortable to shoot. It also has the capability to shoot both .38 Sp. and .357 mag.

Grampie not Grumpie,

[76 WARLOCK]

One advantage to being old is I remember Jeff Cooper writing in G&A about testing hot loads in a 2" chiefs special he found that the most velocity with a 158swc came with 2400, he did not address flash.

[ScottJ]

What are these "new" commercial loads? I own a SP101 with a 2.25" barrel and a 66 with a 2.5".

My favorite factory load is the old standard green & yellow Remington 125gr SJHP. They list it at 1450fps out of a 4 inch barrel. It's quite the flamethrower in my snubbies.

[S.R.Custom]

...[Cooper] did not address flash...

I don't 'spect he would. If he did, it would be to point out the tactical advantage of being able to light up a dark room. :D

[imashooter2]

Speer #8. Use with caution.

http://www.bbhfarm.com/albums/album10/aan.jpg

[Ole]

I use the Speer gold dot short barrel ammo for carry ammo in my 4" GP100.

I really like the power level/muzzle blast, and i've tested the bullets in wet phone books. I was pleased enough with the performance of the bullets that I no longer have bad dreams about being viciously attacked by an angry mob of wet phone books. :mrgreen:

[fredj338]

What are these "new" commercial loads? I own a SP101 with a 2.25" barrel and a 66 with a 2.5".

My favorite factory load is the old standard green & yellow Remington 125gr SJHP. They list it at 1450fps out of a 4 inch barrel. It's quite the flamethrower in my snubbies.

THe Speer 135grGDSBHP, Win 145grSTHP, Rem. 125grGS. All are designed around the 357mag snub. I like the 145grSTHP. It will make 1150fps from my M66 2 1/2" & recoil is manageable for controlled pairs & blast is nothing like the Rem.125grSJHP.

[ScottJ]

THe Speer 135grGDSBHP, Win 145grSTHP, Rem. 125grGS. All are designed around the 357mag snub. I like the 145grSTHP. It will make 1150fps from my M66 2 1/2" & recoil is manageable for controlled pairs & blast is nothing like the Rem.125grSJHP.

Thanks. I've been thinking of having a look at the Golden Saber. I already use it as carry ammo for my .380, 9MM and .45 (back when it ran).

I love that SJHP though. I've done many water tests with them and they always expand perfectly.

I still hate that Remington discontinued my favorite factory loading for the .44 with the same bullet design. The 210 grainer which they also listed at 1450fps.

[MtGun44]

Have you given much thought to the "fun factor" of touching off a full power .357 mag
in a 13.5 oz pistol? I have a 11 oz .38 Spl that is very unpleasant to shoot, and would not
want to do the .357 Mag version. I also have a 329 (titanium & aluminum .44 mag) which is
nasty in recoil, too. You CAN get too light.

Bill

[sneared]

I have to agree with MtGun44. I have a scandium 340 pd that is absolutely miserable to shoot even with 125 gr 357 mag loads. I shudder to think what a 158 gr load would feel like. Even plain old 148 gr 38 spc target wadcutters are not pleasant to shoot in it. I carry the gun a lot but shoot it very little.

I also have a 649 that is a joy to shoot for a snubbie. The same 125 gr 357 loads produce lots of blast and the recoil can almost be conisdered fun. 148 gr wad cutters are great fun and cost little to shoot in it. The 649 is almost double the weight of the 340.

Frank

[anachronism]

I love the old Speer manuals. Jeff Coopers original favorite 38 Spl load used Red Dot with a 158 gr jhp. I've tried it, it's about as hot as Skeeters 13.5 gr of 2400, with the 358156. Jeffs load is wayy off the charts now. He once wrote of having to give it up because it was causing his S&W 36s to shoot loose way too soon.

[Gee_Wizz01]

If I may insert an opinion: rather than a light alloy stubby for the nightstand I would look at a Ruger SP101. It weighs considerable more yet is compact and is all stainless steel. I have one and my wife has a S&W Airweight that weighs 10+ oz. less, mine is much more comfortable to shoot. It also has the capability to shoot both .38 Sp. and .357 mag.

Grampie not Grumpie,

I used to keep a 4" .357 Mag in the night stand until I cornered a large angry raccoon in a small room in the barn one night. The room was about 10'X12' with a 10' ceiling and I was armed with a flashlight and the .357 Mag. When I touched off the round, it was spectacular! The fireball was large and the raccoon went down and dust came out of every crevice in the room. I couldn't hear well for several hours. It looked like someone had thrown a flash-bang in the room. After this incident I decided to keep the Govt Model .45ACP in the nightstand as it has a lot less report and flash. Seriously a short barreled .357 Mag is not something you want to shoot in a house.

G

[geargnasher]

I used to keep a 4" .357 Mag in the night stand until I cornered a large angry raccoon in a small room in the barn one night. The room was about 10'X12' with a 10' ceiling and I was armed with a flashlight and the .357 Mag. When I touched off the round, it was spectacular! The fireball was large and the raccoon went down and dust came out of every crevice in the room. I couldn't hear well for several hours. It looked like someone had thrown a flash-bang in the room. After this incident I decided to keep the Govt Model .45ACP in the nightstand as it has a lot less report and flash. Seriously a short barreled .357 Mag is not something you want to shoot in a house.

G

+1.

Use a .22 rifle next time. They work fine with a handheld flashlight.

But stick the Warhorse in your waistband, too, just in case you meet the real boogie man!

Gear

[kelbro]

Seriously a short barreled .357 Mag is not something you want to shoot in a house.
G

I don't WANT to shoot anything in the house :) but if my wife has to use a weapon for defense, I don't want her to have to think about anything. Cocking/decocking, racking a round in the chamber, etc... Just point and squeeze the trigger.

[Willbird]

I think the only thing "new" about "short barrel loads" is the advertising.

This is simply a load with a fast burning powder.

The highest velocity book loads typically use the slowest burning powder, and in a long barrel, that's fine. In a snubby, the bullet / boolit exits the bbl before the powder has finished burning. The remaining powder burns off in mid air, hence the flash.

open a reloading manual, pick a load with fast burning powder, like bullseye, red dot, 700x. Try a few, see which one works best in your gun.

That's your new short barrel load, no advertising required:mrgreen:

many moons ago there was a Handloader magazine article about fast powders and short barrels, the conventional wisdom has always been that bullseye or another such powder will give the highest velocity in a short bbl, the only problem with that wisdom is that it is WRONG. Typically the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 6" barrel also turns in the highest velocity in a 2" barrel. The peak pressure in many revolver cartridges may well occur before the bullet leaves the cylinder.

Bill

[theperfessor]

+1 for Willbird. I'd bet the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 6" barrel also gives the most muzzle flash in a 2" barrel.

[fredj338]

many moons ago there was a Handloader magazine article about fast powders and short barrels, the conventional wisdom has always been that bullseye or another such powder will give the highest velocity in a short bbl, the only problem with that wisdom is that it is WRONG. Typically the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 6" barrel also turns in the highest velocity in a 2" barrel. The peak pressure in many revolver cartridges may well occur before the bullet leaves the cylinder.

Bill
This is true, but you also get the most muzzle flash. You can get surpriseingly close to the slower powders w/ medium burners in short bbls. They lose less vel. / inch than the slower powders. So you might give up say 30-40fps to the slower powder, but have less flash & blast. Yes I have tried this over a chronograph.

[Tim357]

Willbird, I tried to post a scan of the load chart you are referencing but methinks it is too big. The article appeared in Handloader #92, July-August 1981. The author ( Bob Hagel) used a Dan Wesson frame and four different length barrels for his test. What he boiled it down to was Unique was the powder to beat for bullets under 150 grains. He used Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, and WW296. His last few lines of the article paraphrased are 110 to 125 gr JHP bullets should be used for top velocities without excessive penetration, and to ensure top velocity you are better off with either the slowest powders or nothing faster than Unique.
Tim sends

[Gee_Wizz01]

I don't WANT to shoot anything in the house :) but if my wife has to use a weapon for defense, I don't want her to have to think about anything. Cocking/decocking, racking a round in the chamber, etc... Just point and squeeze the trigger.
I agree with you on that, I use a pistol, Mama is not comfortable with a hand gun and has an 18" bbl 12 ga pump! And she knows how to use it.

G

[Gee_Wizz01]

+1.

Use a .22 rifle next time. They work fine with a handheld flashlight.

But stick the Warhorse in your waistband, too, just in case you meet the real boogie man!

Gear

I normally take my little .22 rifle, but this night I thought I had a real problem! I woke up at 2AM to the sound of breaking glass, barking dogs and all sorts of commotion. Grabbed the .357 my boots and light and ran into the barn expecting to confront a burglar; instead a found a very large boar raccoon who had crawled through a small vent window in the store room and couldn't get out, because the window was 8 fit up the wall. In the mean time he was knocking grandma's pickles and preserves off the shelves and generally creating mayhem. When I opened the door I heard a loud growl and saw a pair of glowing eyes coming toward me. Without thinking I cut loose and hit him in the head with a 125 gr JHP. It calmed him right down, but lordy was it loud.

G

[zardoz]

A couple of months ago, I was working up high energy loads for my Taurus 606 .357 Magnum, that has a 2" ported barrel.

The two powders I was working with were Blue Dot and H110 at near maximum listed charges. I was using a Lee 358-158-RN cast from AC wheelweights in both cases. The one with the good sized meplat.

Blue Dot charge of 10.6 grains gave the higher of the two measuring average 1084 ft/s. Federal SPM primers Primers were on the verge of flattening out I believe there. Also used a heavy roll crimp. Pan lube of 50% paraffin/50% Lithium Bearing Grease. Some leading there though.

H-110 averaged 999 ft/s, with a charge of 16.0 grains. Heavy roll crimp. Federal SPM primers again. No primer pressure signs. Pan lube of 50/50 beeswax/vaseline. Some leading.

Probably need to water drop, or use a bit harder alloy at these levels.

Don't know about muzzle flash, as it was bright daylight, but I imagine it was supernova fireball in both cases. Some evening, I will shoot some of those rounds at dusk to see how much fire comes out the barrel ports alongside the front sight.

Now I'm working in the opposite direction, using small charges of Red Dot and Bullseye giving 500 to 600 ft/s velocities.

That gun has been a really great target shooter for me, and has changed my perception of snubnose capabilities.

[jdgabbard]

You think those are loud? You ought to try touching off a 7.62x25 indoors sometime... I was blind for about 5 minutes and deaf for a few hours. That was inside a 15x20... Rodents now get the whiffle bat treatment...