Confused on Paper Patching

[bkbville]

I cast but have never paper patched.

I've attempted to come up to speed reading a bunch of posts, but I have to admit I'm utterly confused about how to start, what I need to size to, what's an easy paper to start with. what the steps are, how do I get it to seat without ripping paper, etc. etc.

I see a "Paper 101" sticky - but it's about paper...

Is there a "Paper Patching 101" that explains the basics?

[Red River Rick]

I cast but have never paper patched.

Is there a "Paper Patching 101" that explains the basics?

Bkbville:

Yes there is. It's a book titled "The Paper Jacket", by Paul Matthews. Now, back in print, it's a good start.

Check the archive section of "Paper Patching", there's a ton of information there as well..................you just have to go thru it.

RRR

[Nrut]

bkbville...
For smokeless...
First you need to determine the "bore" dia. of your rifle then order a push thru sizer slightly larger than your bore or a mold that casts a boolit slightly larger than you bore dia... When I say slightly larger I am talking around .001 to .0015" larger...you may be able to go larger but I haven't tried anything larger than that yet...

What rifle and caliber are you wishing to patch for and are you shooting smokeless or black?

RRRick offers good advice on the Paul Matthews book...

[RMulhern]

Go here:

http://www.public.iastate.edu/%7Ejessie/PPB/PPB.htm

For the REAL WAY....to paper patch!

[303Guy]

Firstly, bkbville, you need to realise that paper patching can be addictive! It's a whole heap of fun and has a tendency to make one want to shoot more than normal. Be prepared to give up watching TV.:holysheep

I have tried a few different methods of wrapping and a few different types of patches as well as a few different ways of applying the patches. For practice in rolling the patch, I went for a patch angle matching my rifling angle. Then, once I learned how to get the ends to meet, I changed to the conventional 30 to 45 degree angle. I have chosen to use 30 degrees.

It actually doesn't take long for the patch rolling part to become easy.

[Buckshot]

Go here:

http://www.public.iastate.edu/%7Ejessie/PPB/PPB.htm

For the REAL WAY....to paper patch!

Nothing there now except a couple paragraphs. Been that way for some time.

............Buckshot

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Perhaps this is the time to develop and sticky a "how to" here that goes into true original patching, with all the teflon tape and current whimsey left out. One has to master the basics and understand the "why" before playing wizard. BvT

[montana_charlie]

Nothing there now except a couple paragraphs. Been that way for some time.
Since the webpage still exists, I hope he has just taken down the supporting pages in order to get them edited for completeness and continuity (which got messed up when he moved to his 'real' site).

However, Google led me to this page...
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/Page937.htm ...so there may be others still available out there.

CM

[1874Sharps]

I second the opinion that paper patching is addictive, and also second the helpfulness of Paul Matthew's book, "The Paper Jacket"! That book is back in print after a year or two of being out of print and was highly helpful to me when I became interested in paper patching a few years back.

[303Guy]

Lots of interesting stuff on that site, montana_charlie. They're talking of shooting 1000yds with 1350fps MV guns!:holysheep

So much to experiment with if one chooses to!:Fire:

This says it all!:mrgreen:

... So, catch up to the technology of the 19th century. It is now the 21st century, and you are falling further and further behind. There ain't much time left.

[montana_charlie]

Lots of interesting stuff on that site, montana_charlie.
Yep. Just goto http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/ and start picking 'pages' on the left and read 'em.

They're talking of shooting 1000yds with 1350fps MV guns!:holysheep
Well...yeah?
For several of us who hang out in this forum, that is the whole gist of paper patching. That's why (for some of us) we wouldn't take a car load of smokeless if you were giving it away.

If you can't break your shot, lean over and look through the spotting scope, and watch as the bullet impacts on the gong...you are missing out on the 'visual' part of the fun.

CM

[303Guy]

I love it!:mrgreen:
I wonder whether there are folks doing it in my parts of the world? Mmmm....


Perhaps this is the time to develop and sticky a "how to" here that goes into true original patching, ...
Agreed.

I must say, though, that part of the fun of learning paper patching lies in 'chatting' to the folks willing to guide us along and perhaps laugh at our 'failures' along the way.

bkbville, an easy paper to start with is lined notepad paper. Another is tracing paper because of its wet strength - assuming all tracing paper is strong. Dry wrapping works too, with a little practice. In a way its more forgiving because it stays smooth and strong for as long as one needs to turn it in ones fingers to get it nice and tight. Some folks use cigarette paper. I have tried that but without success. That only means it did not work for me the way I applied it with the powder charge I was using and hardness of bullet. (Softness, more likely). Hope that helps a little.

[1874Sharps]

Wahoo, well said 303Guy! There are many proven methods of paper patching and some that probably have yet to be discovered that work quite well. But is that not the fun of it all; experimenting and sharing ideas, help and results?

[montana_charlie]

I love it!:mrgreen:
I wonder whether there are folks doing it in my parts of the world? Mmmm....
I know of some Aussies who shoot BPCR, and post on these shooting forums.
They probably wouldn't mind showing you a thing or two, if you can get across the channel and manage to keep your powder dry.

As for New Zealand, I don't know. Don't recall seeing that 'location' under any username other than yours...

Do you have access to a large-caliber single-shot designed to lob a bullet up over 70 feet above the ground to get it out to a thousand yards?
That's how you get 'em there with 1300 fps at launch...and they sure ain't going that fast when they arrive.

The far end of the trajectory is so steep, they might even gain a little on the downhill.

CM

[303Guy]

The far end of the trajectory is so steep, they might even gain a little on the downhill.:mrgreen:That boolit would be subsonic most of the way. It would be no small feat to get that onto target! That must be fun! I don't have a large bore. 303 Brit is what I have .... say .... ! Mmmmm.... !:roll: I bet my 245gr cast boolits on top of some holy grain stuff ...... [smilie=1:

[1874Sharps]

It is steep indeed! In the late 1870s the US Army did some long range testing at Sandy Hook with the 45-70 Springfield and the newly considered 500 grain boolit. The standard boolit had been a 405 grain, but the army wanted a better volley fire range, so they were testing out the heavier boolit. At around 2000 yards the boolits were coming down at steeper than 45 degrees yet the penetration into pine board was still substantial. Nothing like getting hit by a brick!

[Hardcast416taylor]

Reminds me of a story my dad told. He was hunting in the hills of the Mich. U.P. A big buck ran up and over the hilltop about 200 yds. off. Dad was using an old .45-70 with some old BP loads. He shot just as the deer broke over the crest. That boolit followed the deer over the hilltop and 30 yds. down the other side and did a Texas Heart shot on him!Robert:holysheep

[montana_charlie]

:mrgreen:That boolit would be subsonic most of the way. It would be no small feat to get that onto target!
In .45 caliber, it takes bullets over five hundred grains to remain stable enough...and retain enough velocity...to do the work. It's a length versus diameter thing, with some attention expended on 'shape'. It requires a bullet that can 'shudder' through the transonic velocity region without going haywire.

The bullet drops below supersonic in the (roughly) 350-yard zone. That's why a bullet might be very good at 200, but wild at 400 and beyond. Real pointy bullets don't usually do well, at all.


the army wanted a better volley fire range, so they were testing out the heavier boolit.
In the discussion (on the BPCR forum) you mentioned Sandy Hook, and the fact that the Army got 'good' results without using an over powder wad. You wondered why.

As you can see, the Army was interested in 'volley fire range', not 'long range accuracy'. In volley fire, multiple shooters are just trying to hit a formation of troops...not an individual man, or horse...nor even a specific gun crew serving a howitzer.

The refinement of using the wad would only have been of interest to a man designated as a 'sharpshooter' (sniper)...who may even have loaded his own ammunition.

But, that plain round nose, on the bullet the Army picked, still does better at a thousand than 'pointy' ones which appeared later.

CM

[1874Sharps]

Charlie,

Your post about the transition from super to subsonic makes me wonder if the shorter (say, well under 500 grains in 45 caliber) is more affected by the shockwave because of the shockwave's wavelength being a multiple (or near multiple) of the bullet's length. In other words, when the bullet is of longer length, is it such that it can stretch the wavelength of the shockwave over its length and therefore not enter into its vibration? That is along the idea of constructive and destructive wave interaction.

If any of you ever read Dr. Brent Danielson's works on the subject of the supersonic transition, you will know why on the Gunn-Trenk bullet (I think I am remembering the name right) it had an angled ring just past the nose ogive so that the standing shockwave could form on a distinct point, rather than run all the way from the nose to the base in a more random fashion.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,

Your post about the transition from super to subsonic makes me wonder if the shorter (say, well under 500 grains in 45 caliber) is more affected by the shockwave because of the shockwave's wavelength being a multiple (or near multiple) of the bullet's length.

That is along the idea of constructive and destructive wave interaction.
Way too scientific for a goat roper like me...but I do keep the lube out of that first groove on my PGT (Pedersoli-Gunn-Trenk) bullets.
CM

[Dframe]

Bkbville:

Yes there is. It's a book titled "The Paper Jacket", by Paul Matthews. Now, back in print, it's a good start.

Check the archive section of "Paper Patching", there's a ton of information there as well..................you just have to go thru it.

RRR
Thanks for the information Rick. I ordered this book today.

[EDK]

Two excellent books are LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, A BEGINNERS GUIDE by Randolph Wright, a professional illustrator, and Orville Loomer's booklet, both available at Shiloh Sharps. The Wright book is well written and profusely illustrated...lots of techniques that transfer to grease groove boolits also. Orville has more of a historical slant...talking to him and getting to examine his reproduction loading gear at the Quigley shoot makes you realize how much information has been lost....and is being re-learned.

If you like the books, get a second copy of each. The Matthews book, also excellent, was out of print and copies were going for up to $60 each! I buy doubles of most of the books I use for references....John Taffin or Mike Venturino. I screwed up and didn't get extra copies of Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan or Jeff Cooper.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[1874Sharps]

Charlie,

Here is a photo of the PP bullet cast from the Lee custom mold I had made up. I think we talked before about the tapered, undersized dimensions of it. Note the "sonic ring" just beyond the ogive. That is the sort of thing I was talking about above and the reason I suspect you leave the lube out of the top groove of your PGT bullet.

[montana_charlie]

The red arrow points at the groove I was talking about on the PGT.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1230

It resembles a crimp groove, but none of the people involved in it's development advocate crimping BPCR bullets.

CM

[1874Sharps]

Charlie,

That does make sense!