Home-made Mould

[heathydee]

I made this "push out" style 30 caliber mould over the past couple of weeks . The cavity was cut with a half reamer or "D" bit and the bullets are ejected from the mould with a captive ejection pin/nose form which is flat at present and results in a meplat measuring .200". Boolits measure .301 inches and have been patched up to .309" , finger smeared with LLA and seated and fired . No sizing . The boolits were fired in my 7.62x39 single shot bolt action .The target shows the best results so far .

[303Guy]

heathydee, do you have more pictures of the mold and the loaded cartridge?[smilie=1:
What patching technique do you use?

[heathydee]

heathydee, do you have more pictures of the mold and the loaded cartridge?[smilie=1:
What patching technique do you use?

I have the whole build documented over at homegunsmith.com 303Guy, in the "your projects" forum where I use the same user-name. You have to register , which is free , but if you encounter problems (a lot of people do) PM me with your email address and I will send a few pictures across the Tasman .

[longbow]

Nice mould and nice targets!

I see you have made your mould from square or at least "squared" stock.

I have been making push out moulds for some time now and find they work very well especially for paper patching but I also shoot some bare full bore boolits over grease cookies and knurl some then tumble lube.

From your description I assume you have a full diameter sliding nose form. I normally do that but have also started using D bits in boolit form then with just a small ejector pin to push the boolit out.

I will have to go to homegunsmith.com to see what you have there. It is always good to see what others are doing! I am still learning lots.

Thanks for sharing.

I have posted photos of my moulds on Cast Boolits, if you are interested just do a search.

Longbow

[heathydee]

Theis mould features a small diameter ejection pin which also forms the .200" meplat Longbow. I have seen your moulds on this forum and used them for inspiration. Thanks .
Heath

[barrabruce]

Excellent Heathydee
Looking promising..Like to how well they go at 100yrds or more when loads and things worked up a bit.

Barra :)

hmm must get lathe ...must make mold....mold....

[1874Sharps]

I have some molds being built by a local machine shop that have both similar and different characteristics that I will show when they are in my hand. I like the work all of you have done on your experimental molds that have been built on sound principles! I look forward to seeing the photos of the molds, raw and patched bullets, loads and targets.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nice looking bit of kit, I'll be back in mid Sept, I'll pop around and have a close up look.

[heathydee]

I have uploaded a few photos , with captions, of the mould manufacture to an album on my home-page ,which is accessed by clicking on my username . Start at the last one and work your way back . I have not yet learned how to re-organise the album .

[Four Fingers of Death]

I checked out your homepage, looking good.

[303Guy]

I have the whole build documented over at homegunsmith.com 303Guy, Thanks, heathydee. I did have trouble but will try again.

[heathydee]

I have Mk 2 version of the mould cut a little deeper with the same D bit and featuring a projecting ejection pin . More pictures and descriptions in an album on my profile page .

[Four Fingers of Death]

As the boys used to say, "Cool bananas!!!"

[barrabruce]

:) Looks good to me...hope they shoot well for you


Barra

[longbow]

heathydee:

I finally got into the home gunsmithing site to look at your post. Good write up and pictures of the mould. Very nice workmanship too.

I like the mould "holder". I have been doing something similar with the round pushout moulds. I use the 1 1/2" round as a "holder" and use 3/4" round for the mould. Then the sprue plate and handle stay with the "holder". It is very quick to make a new mould as it is 3/4" bar cut off, faced and bored.

That looks like a very good site so I will have to take a look through. Thanks for pointing us there.

Longbow

[heathydee]

:) Looks good to me...hope they shoot well for you


Barra

I will be testing them later today Bruce .I wrapped up some yesterday evening and the paper dried and shrunk on overnight. They just need a bit of a wipe over with some LLA before loading .I get a good result with this weight boolit in my 94 Winchester in front of 30 grains of AR2208(Varget) , which is a mild load - 33 grains is listed as maximum ,so I will just substitute the PP boolit for the GC boolit and see what happens. Given that the 30-30 needs a crimp to hold the projectile in place because of recoil and the tube magazine conspiring together to push the boolit back into the case , and crimping a PP boolit will damage the patch, I will put a small ammount of filler between the base of the PP boolit and the powder to arrive at a 100% loading density . I usually use ground up polyethylene (Grex) for this purpose . It should help protect the base of the boolit too.

[Beekeeper]

I tried to get in to the gunsmithing forum to see your post.
No luck couldn't find anything about it so must be blocked out on this end .
any ideas

[longbow]

Beekeeper:

Yes, you have to sign up.

I signed up but it still took several days before I cold get access.

Heathydee did an excellent write up with very good photos.

I will have to take some time to puruse the forums, it looks like a very good site.

Longbow

[heathydee]

I got out to the range and tried both the 140 grain and 173 grain boolits in my 94 Winchester . It was raining at times and a strong and gusty wind hampered things as well . I was not willing to put the Chrony out in the weather so no velocity readings were taken either . The same type and weight of powder behind the Lee 170 gn flatpoint boolit in the Winchester gives just on 2000 fps and I would guess , judging by recoil , not much difference in speed with the 173 gn PP boolit.
I had the rifle resting on the bags with as little input from me as possible to try and minimize shooter error . By the time I had figured out that this was not working real well , I had shot off the ten rounds I had loaded with the heavier boolit. I will have to repeat this test next week . However , I had loaded five rounds with the lighter 140 grainer to test for functioning through the magazine , and once the barrel had cooled and the sun made a tentative and fleeting appearance I put these rounds through the Chrony and into the target , only this time holding the rifle firmly with both hands ; front hand resting on the bag . Using factory cartridges I can usually put five into a bit over an inch at this range so I am not too displeased with the result . The five shells were loaded into the magazine and cycled through the action and obviously the patch survived this treatment so some success was achieved for the day . The velocity of over 2100 fps was especially gratifying too . I am casting these boolits out of soft lead sweetened with some tin to improve castability without making them too hard .
Last week I tried a penetration comparison between the Lee 150 gn FP and the 140 gn PP using wet paper-back novels ; you know the kind that hang around the house for years , which are not good enough to read again , too good to throw out , and no one wants to buy them off you . Any way , without mentioning authors ( who may be reading) , 12 inches of wet novels did not stop the Lee boolit . Nor did the plastic 2 gallon container of water behind them . That boolit came to rest in the stout tree I had used as a back-stop although in two pieces , as revealed by the two exit holes in the plastic container. The test was then repeated with the PP boolit with the boolit coming to rest in the water container . Upon impact , pieces of wet paper were thrown into the air . Not a snow-storm but still impressive . The books sustained more damage than the first ttest and the boolit had been captured in the water container . 111 grains of it were left and it had expanded into a classic mushroom shape . Both boolits were launched at around the 2100 fps mark. I will put a picture of the expanded boolit in an album on my profile page .

[Beekeeper]

heathyde,
I am a member of the homegunsmith.com forum and I still can't get into your home projects forum.
The only thing the forum will let me have is Rodeus gunsmithing and new member .
I have been a member there for over a year and it has always been the same.


Jim

[heathydee]

I am aware of the problems over there Beekeeper and sometimes I wonder if the site is "on the skids".
As to the mould and its manufacture , I am thinking the nose shape is too blunt and would benefit from a more rounded profile ; same size meplat though. I have a few chunks of alloy in the shed and am thinking that it might be worthwhile to document the build of the MK 3 fully in an album on my profile page . Because of the limitations on the ammount of pictures I can post on threads sooner or later I will have to delete pictures from earlier threads and I do not want to do that. I can have up to 60 pictures with captions in an album and that should be enough to document the process of making a push out mould from scratch and it will be there forever . What do you think?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Open a photobucket account (which you probably have done already. They allow you to open folders. You can then put up a link to it. The boolit shape looks good to me (for hunting anway).

[heathydee]

The boolit shape looks good to me (for hunting anway).

The problem is Mick , that the blunt form hits the start of the rifling and means the boolit has to be seated too deeply in the case , limiting powder space . It is not a problem in my two 30-30s but is in my 7.62x39 single shot and my Martini wildcat in 30-357 Magnum .

[Four Fingers of Death]

OK, that makes sense.

[barrabruce]

Heath it does sound good.

Maybe they will be a good roo load then.
Or do you think a hollow point will work ever better???

[1874Sharps]

Heathydee,

Have you tried shooting these PP boolits at a faster velocity (maybe in a different cartridge)? Sometimes better accuracy comes this way.

[heathydee]

Heathydee,

Have you tried shooting these PP boolits at a faster velocity (maybe in a different cartridge)? Sometimes better accuracy comes this way.

I have reached 2270 fps with the 140 grain PP boolit out of the first mould when fired out of my single shot Chicopee 30-30 . This rifle has a 25 inch barrel and measures .307" to the bottom of the grooves. The best group so far was a five shotter measuring 27.5 mm at 50 metres ; a whisker under 2 MOA . The rifle is short throated . I cut the chamber to suit Remington 150 grain factory ammunition ,with which it performs superbly . Three shot groups from a cold barrel are almost always well under MOA and cast boolit loads with the Lee 150 gn FP at 2250 fps or the CBE 150gn RN average under 1.5 MOA so I think better results are not far off with the lighter of the two PP boolits I have made so far.
My 94 Winchester is the later Angle Eject model and has a long throat so it better suits the longer 173 gn PP Boolit so velocities will probably top out at about 2100 fps . The goal here is 2 MOA .173 grains of soft lead arriving at that speed says "hello" with some authority and should deal with the odd feral goat or pig that may happen to wander in front of the sights.
I am wondering if I need to patch the boolits up a couple of thousandths to about the .311" mark or maybe put the moulds back in the lathe and polish them a smidgin larger . That is the next thing to try after I have exhausted the ususal possiblities of powder load , seating depth etc. All of this takes time but it is time well spent.

[heathydee]

I have been playing with the 173 gn boolit in my Winchester 30-30 and have not improved on previous results.The last test gave me two five shot groups at fifty metres of 45mm ; fed through the magazine , and 51mm ;single loaded . Velocity was 2100 fps . I will hone out the mould two thousandths or so and try a few more patched up to .311"in the next week or so and see if that improves things. If it doesn't , a Mk3 mould will be commenced .

[barrabruce]

Did you read the atricle about sizing down the patch?
Or do you want to keep with the cast ..wrap..shoot...theory
Seems good to me but I'm waiting / deciding on a mold.
The PP molds seem hexy to me at the moment.
Keep up the good work

Bruce

[heathydee]

[QUOTE=barrabruce;
Or do you want to keep with the cast ..wrap..shoot...theory


That is the plan Bruce . I want to keep things as simple and easy as possible . The 173 gn boolit I think will suit the 94 Winchester as it can be seated well out . My other 30 calibers have shorter throats and will need a more pointed boolit , hopefully with the same .200" meplat . I have started making another D bit two thousandths larger than the first one and should be able to cut a couple of cavities next week . I will match the new mould blocks to the sprue plates I have already made to ease demands on my time .

[barrabruce]

I'm playing with some 180's down and wrapping with 1/2 lenght patches .Then sizing down.
Not holding out if they will not lead the bore thou. But trying it.

Couldn't you just hone out the bore a few thou with a small flap sander??? Save making a new mould till you hit pay dirt then make one that size???

just a thought
Cheers
Bruce

[longbow]

I usually cut my push out moulds slightly small then lap to get the final size I want. If I use a full nose form rather than an ejector pin, I lap the whole cavity spending slightly more time "out" than "in" to produce a very slight taper of 0.0005" or so for easy ejection.

Just cast a slug, drill a hole in the base for a wood screw, file a flat on the slug, put some valve lapping compound on the flat, insert into the mould and lap away. I use an electric drill rotating slowly.

Another small problem I ran into was that sometimes the D bits warp when I heat treat them after milling the flat on them. I don't have a jig made up to grind to final form after heat treating which is what is recommended so I make the final version in soft form then heat treat but the D section tends to bow slightly making it cut about 0.003" large.

I took to making the D bit about 0.003" small then doing a final light lapping to finish the cavity. That workks well enough.

Longbow

[heathydee]

I usually cut my push out moulds slightly small then lap to get the final size I want. If I use a full nose form rather than an ejector pin, I lap the whole cavity spending slightly more time "out" than "in" to produce a very slight taper of 0.0005" or so for easy ejection.

Just cast a slug, drill a hole in the base for a wood screw, file a flat on the slug, put some valve lapping compound on the flat, insert into the mould and lap away. I use an electric drill rotating slowly.

Another small problem I ran into was that sometimes the D bits warp when I heat treat them after milling the flat on them. I don't have a jig made up to grind to final form after heat treating which is what is recommended so I make the final version in soft form then heat treat but the D section tends to bow slightly making it cut about 0.003" large.

I took to making the D bit about 0.003" small then doing a final light lapping to finish the cavity. That workks well enough.

Longbow

It is always easier to remove metal than put it back on isn't it . I have not yet had a problem with D bits warping Longbow but I agree polishing or honing the last couple of thousandths out of the cavity is the way to go and gives a better surface finish . Another reason for the new D bit is to make a more boolity looking boolit . The current one has to be seated too deep in the case , especially in the 7.62x69 ,limiting powder capacity , and a less abrupt profile might give enhanced downrange ballistics . I just want to keep that .200" meplat for teminal performance on live game.
Thanks for your input.
Heath

[303Guy]

Or do you want to keep with the cast ..wrap..shoot...theory
That is the plan Bruce .

Well, just a thought. To get boolits to cast out consistently is in itself a mission. If one simplifies the casting process the consistency goes down. But, adding a sizer die to the process should more than compensate. i.e. it may well be simpler to size then patch. Then the mold itself can be designed for quicker (and simpler) operation. Sizing pre-patching makes patching simpler as the boolit diameter is more uniform over its length. Mold design and manufacture becomes simpler too.

Of course, a suitably designed press makes the whole process get even simpler.

[heathydee]

I had one more attempt with the 173 gn boolit in the Winchester 30-30. I loaded ten rounds up with 32 grains of AR2208(Varget) , filling up the empty space left in the case with 0.7cc of shotshell buffer to provide 100 percent loading density and thus hopefully , prevent setback under recoil in the Winchester's tubular magazine . The first fouling shot over the chronograph resulted in a velocity of 2150 fps which , as far as I am concerned , is as close to a maximum load as I am going to get .The next nine into the target at 50 meters gave a nice round group of 40mm or just under 1.6". Given that the boolit is "fingernail scratching" soft I am vaguely pleased with the result . I have started work on a Mk3 mould which will throw a boolit a couple of thousandths larger in diameter and with a more tapered ogive to try and improve accuracy . I want to achieve a patched diameter of around the .311" mark . The picture of the last group is in the album on my personal page.

[heathydee]

I have finished the Mk3 mould and preliminary results are encouraging . Reasonable accuracy at 2250 fps has been achieved with 152 grain boolits cast out of straight wheel-weights and air cooled. They drop from the mould measuring .302" and are patched up to .310" with wet note-paper . Once dry the twisted tails are cut off with a small pair of wire-cutters and the boolits are hand lubed with Lee Liquid Alox.
Because of poor venting compared to a conventional split mould , a different technique has been used to get good fill-out. The sprue hole is 5/32" diameter and by tilting the mould as the pour is begun and returning it to the vertical position as the cavity fills , most of the trapped air comes out of the sprue hole. Despite this , a reject rate of around 15% leaves a lot of room for improvement. Some pictures and descriptions are in an album entitled "Mk3 Boolit Mould" on my personal page.

[longbow]

heathydee:

I ladle pour so there may be some differences there but I found a long time ago that tilting the mould helps as you have discovered, the larger sprue hole helps as well. I will have to measure mine as I have forgotten what size I made them but they are bigger than standard Lyman or RCBS that I have.

Another trick I use is to pour tangentially so the lead swirls down the sprue hold. I also cast hot so I get frosty boolits, that helps as well and once lead and mould are up to temp. I get very few rejects.

Latley I have been shooting smooth two diameter nose bore rider boolits of a couple thou over groove diameter on the larger body. I have been outside lubricating these and so far it has been quite successful.

Obviously these are not paper patched but the mould is exactly the same style of push out mould as for my PP boolits.

Longbow

[heathydee]

Thanks for the tips Longbow . I agree that hotter will be better . I am having trouble keeping the mould up to temperature which is probably because of its mass , and the fact that one 150 grain boolit every 40 seconds or so is not going to make up for the heat lost over that time . What I have been doing is pouring the remainder of my spoonful of lead over the side of the mould once the cavity is full in an attempt to keep its temperature up . Other ideas include machining the bottom of the mould cylindrical to reduce its surface area/mass ratio or attaching a heat shield to the handle . However the mould is functional as is , and more practice in the pouring techniques discussed should result in a reduction in the amount of rejects.

[barrabruce]

I.I.I.I. like it verly much...I I I I think its grand!!!
A few Question Heath.
Whats the sponge on the box for?
It seems your bullet profiles down towards the nose as the paper didn't engrave. That right??
Thanks for the idea of a small charge to lodge the bullet in the rifling.
Me-um test him out for mine now.

Maybe a bit less patch length may be get them of the bullet easier/more consistant.
Have you tried with not lube at all??
My barrell get hot fast but no lead issue if I just grease the nose section.


Like the profile better.

Have you tried 18 grs of 2207?
One of my attempts grouped well with it.

My half patched 180's seems to be a mostly a failure at this stage. One more attemp at it.

Keep up the good work.

Interested in the next update

Bruce

[longbow]

heathydee:

Why only one boolit every 40 seconds?

I cast as fast as with a split mould and actually since with most of my pushout moulds the boolits almost fall out on their own (some do) I can cast about as fast with the single cavity as with a split double cavity mould where I usually have to tap the handle hinge to release the boolits.

Also, I cast 100 grain boolits in the same mould I normally cast 180 gr. in with no problems ~ well, other than they didn't shoot well. Too short I think so too much jump thropugh the throat.I have more patched that I will try again though.

I normally make my moulds from 1 1/2" round bar which seems to work well for me for boolits from .30 cal to 12 ga. slugs. The 12 ga. slugs do heat up a mould fast though!

What size material are you using? I normally use steel and often just plain 'ol cold rolled but have also used bronze which works well and is easy to machine. Brass or aluminum should work well too and when I bought material last time I wanted aluminum but noone locally had any.

I have been planning a multi cavity pushout mould but haven't got to it yet. One day.

Longbow

[heathydee]

Bruce
The sponge on the box is for sitting on . Casting as I do using a gas ring and an old saucepan I prefer to have everything as low as possible . The floor is as low as I can go and I need a seat at a suitable height.
The front of this latest boolit is tapered slightly and that is reflected in the engraving of the patch. I wanted to seat the boolit out further than the Mk1 and Mk2 to maximize powder space in the smaller cartridges I use such as the 7.62x39 .

Longbow
The problem I have been encountering when I cast faster with this particular alloy , is the boolit base tearing , as the sprue is cut. The sprue plate is 1/4" thick , and may be retaining too much heat compared to the mould block . With a normal GC boolit I never worry too much about the base , because once the gas check is seated , an even base results , that can do no harm as the boolit exits the muzzle and high pressure gas is expanding past it. I have the opinion that a perfect base is very important in regard to accuracy so I have been waiting for the boolit base to solidify completely before cutting the sprue .
The mould block is aluminium 1.25 inches square and 2 inches long .

I tried the boolit in my single shot 7.62x39 and achieved an average five shot group size at 50 meters of 27mm , or just over an inch . Nice round groups with no fliers and a velocity of 2150 fps caused by a load of 23 grains of AR2207 with 0.5cc of shotshell buffer between powder and boolit.
I thought I was on a real winner when the first three shots were touching , but reality set in with the fourth and fifth shots, and the subsequent groups did not improve upon the first. This particular rifle does not do much better with gas checked cast boolits . On a good day it will average 1.5 MOA with the Lee 150 gn FP at 2080 fps.

[longbow]

I'm not the one to be giving extreme accuracy lessons as I am more of an accomplished "plinker" than target shooter and am still working on cast and PP loads for the .303.

As an observation though, I found I was getting good accuracy from my .308 using a cast boolit of 0.302" then paper patched to groove size. I tried using the same boolit for my .303 but with thicker paper to get to groove size but could not get decent accuracy from the .303.

Not sure what made me think of it but I decided to try knurling the boolits. That worked! Knurled they expanded to 0.304"/0.305" and gave good accuracy. Not sure if the knurling helped hold the paper patch or whether the increase in diameter did it or a bit of both but it worked.

The moral being that you might try a little larger or smaller boolit to see if it makes a difference.

The rule of thumb is to have the boolit at bore diameter then patch to groove diameter for smokeless powder loads. Mine was a few thou under bore diameter until knurled so... maybe that is what it needed.

Longbow

[heathydee]

Again Longbow , thankyou for the tips . Your interest is appreciated. The groove dimension in both of the barrels tried so far is .307". The 30-30 has a 1 in 14 twist and the 7.62x39 has a 1 in 13 . Both are ex target barrels . I am fortunate in having friends who compete in 1000 yard matches and 500 meter fly shoots . To keep at the top of their game they have to change out their barrels regularly . Once their groups get out past half minute of angle the barrel is replaced. Their cast-offs however are perfect for my homebuilds and I can rest assured that these barrels have never been abused and have been cleaned regularly and religiously .
Given that the barrels are second hand I am happy with the progress achieved with comparatively little effort. One of my goals was to achieve the same accuracy with PP as with regular gas checked boolits and I have done that . Another goal was to cut the time spent on fitting and crimping on gas checks , and lubing etc . Rolling on a wet patch , clipping the tail and rubbing on some LLA is quicker . Finally I hope to get better boolit expansion in game with the PP boolit . I willtest expansion in wet newsprint and compare it to a regular cast boolit sometime soon .
How do you knurl a boolit. All I can think of is to roll it over a hard surface using a coarse file and have the teeth of the file engrave and displace some of the boolit metal ?

[docone31]

That is one of the things I have been saying.
I have two molds. One is for .308, and it drops the nose at .302. The second is for .303. It drops the nose at .304. These two I size to .308, then wrap. The .308 I size .309, the .303 I size to .314.
Works for me.

[303Guy]

How do you knurl a boolit?Between two files. I learned that from the folks right here on this forum!:drinks:

There is an advantage to sizing the castings prior to patching and that is that mold can have more taper for easy boolit release. It's also difficult to get the right final dimensions when one has to polish the mold after machining. Push through sizing is quick.

Heathydee, do you have any AR2209 handy? If you do, load that case up with a slightly compressed charge of it and see what happens. (You'll only get about 1900fps with it - so I'm told, but accuracy is supposed to be very good. Only one way to find out).

[longbow]

I made a "knurler" that puts annular rings on the boolt. The idea was to use it to make grooves similar to Lee's tumble lube style.

Mine is a little bulky and crude looking (like my moulds) but it works very well and I even "knurled" jacket bullets to try in my oversize .303. I was getting very poor accuracy with it using factory ammo so decided to see if knurling to bring diameter up a bit would help and it did.

Corbin makes a nice rig that is very much more professional looking than mine and also a lot more expensive ~ but readily available and it works:

http://www.corbins.com/hct-2.htm

I was originally going to make one like this with knurled rollers but Corbin says you can't knurl hard lead so I decided I would put annular rings on using a threading tool bit then if I couldn't get deep enough grooves I would remove rings until I could press it into the lead far enough. It wasn't even a problem! I can knurl a entire length of an ACWW .30 cal. bullet with it making annular "thread" (close grooves).

Anyway, when I was having trouble with paper patch accuracy for the .303 I thought I would try bringing the boolit diameter up closer to bore size so from 0.302" to 0.305" or so. I can get about 0.003" expansion in diameter by knurling.

Still not sure if the diameter increase did the trick or the knurling to grip the paper or both. I suspect diameter as many people use smooth boolits for paper patching and my mould works fine as is for the .308.

If you are using standard .30 cal barrels you will likely need a cast boolit of .301" to 0.303". In my experience .303 bores run from .303" to .305".

Longbow

[heathydee]

Quote from 303Guy
There is an advantage to sizing the castings prior to patching and that is that mold can have more taper for easy boolit release. It's also difficult to get the right final dimensions when one has to polish the mold after machining. Push through sizing is quick.

Heathydee, do you have any AR2209 handy? If you do, load that case up with a slightly compressed charge of it and see what happens. (You'll only get about 1900fps with it - so I'm told, but accuracy is supposed to be very good. Only one way to find out).[/QUOTE]


I could not disagree 303Guy about sizing aiding uniformity but it is a step I am not prepared to take just yet . I am not doubting your experience and admire your results and value your input but for once I want to do it quick and easy .

I have a kilo or two of AR 2209 and have used it in both of my 30-30s and your suggestion certainly has merit . Since the 30-30 test exhibited no signs of pressure ; either by visual indications or measured case head expansion , and since the charge weight of AR2208/Varget was at the low end of the scale , I have loaded up 20 rounds with 32 grains of powder and left everything else the same . I would like to reach 2350 fps with this 152 grain boolit and have no deterioration in the accuracy achieved so far. This will match the ballistic performance if not the accuracy of the Remington 150 grain factory load that this rifle favours. By the way I am talking about the Chicopee CF shown in my avatar. This sort of testing is a slow process . I have to discipline myself to changing only one facet of the load at a time in order to learn something useful from a range trip.
The 94 Winchester is another story . Paper patched boolits in the tubular magazine of the lever action mandate a load which features 100 percent loading density to prevent bullet set-back . I believe that crimping the boolit ,as is normally done to prevent this happening ,will damage the patch. AR 2209 , needing more powder to reach the same velocities , would certainly assist in reaching 100 percent loading density in cartidges destined for the 94 and will be well worth trying.

[barrabruce]

I loaded up some 180's PP with 33 grains of Ar2208 last week -end. No accuracy for me but didn't have any hard pressure signs either.Too hot a load but tried it anyway.

Have you tried TurtleWax car polish???
It seems to harden up the patch when dry. I haven't tried any yet but when I slop a bit of Alox on my PP's they tend to go gooey sort of softish.Compared to dry plain paper.
The barrell don't heat up as quick though.
For me anyway.

You aint getting bits of pacth caught on you lead start are you???
I am ..but I didn't notice when I just ran a patch though the barrell.
When I used a brush running back from the crown it picked it up and I could see it then.Stuck to the chamber throat hanging on nice and hard by the alox I reckon.



Just a thought if they are grouping close then suddenly spits 'em out somewhere else.
Worst thing was they weren't keyholing in any way.at 100 yrds .Dohhh!!!
Barra

[303Guy]

... grouping close then suddenly spits 'em out somewhere else.
Worst thing was they weren't keyholing in any way.at 100 yrds .They don't key-hole. I have had terrible accuracy with some of my loads but the boolits entered the paper target perfectly straight on!

Paper patching can be tricky and I suspect that many of us that are inclined to try it are also inclined to want to try different ways. I know I tried stuff just to see what was meant by; "It won't work" . The thing is, I don't wonder about it - I now know it.:mrgreen: Hopefully I learnt something useful along the way.:roll:

[Four Fingers of Death]

Bruce
The problem I have been encountering when I cast faster with this particular alloy , is the boolit base tearing , as the sprue is cut. The sprue plate is 1/4" thick , and may be retaining too much heat compared to the mould block .

You might want to try the trick in the Lee reloading manual, he uses a shallow metal tray with a piece of towelling which is soaked in water. If the mould gets too hot, the mould is placed momentarily, sprus side down against the towelling as soon as the sprue sets which cools it some. The lead is solidificed at that stage so there is no danger, just a bit of steam and as soon as you remove the mould after a moment or two, the heat dries it off immediately. It may save you counting the bricks in the garage wall while you wait.

MIck.

[sav300]

To cool a very hot mould,I use a spray/mist to cool everything.
Before cutting the sprue and no water gets into the mould.

[303Guy]

... about sizing aiding uniformity but it is a step I am not prepared to take just yet. I've been thinking about that. Mmmm .... that has lead me to think of a sizing/seating set up that sizes and seats in one step. I'll figure out a way of doing it in my loading press with a loose die that supports itself on the case shoulder and body or something and a fixed top punch.

[barrabruce]

If you dont over fill the mould and provide positive pressure to the lead in the mould will the base still fill out proper???

I am finding that once I get things hot!!!
I turn down the heat till I just plod along and everything just works!!!
But thats with a "normal" type mold

With the pure'er melt wouldn't the temp be lower than normal to keep it liquid???

The wet the sprue plate tricks be worth the looking at
Bad luck I'm pretty much new to this game.

Barra

[Zeek]

If you dont over fill the mould and provide positive pressure to the lead in the mould will the base still fill out proper???
The trick is to keep on pouring on the melt until the CBoo has solidified in the mould cavity, THEN move on to the next cavity (= pour for ~4 seconds after the cavity is filled). This eliminates the air-suck-in thangy that puts destabilizing bubbles into the ass end of your CBoos. However, doing that means you will have LOTS of alloy running off, a condition you will tend to avoid (because of the mess) with a bottom-pour pot. That is why I find that using a one-liquid-ounce Rowell bottom-pour ladel (from Bill Ferguson "The Antimony Man" ~~~> bulletman1@cox.net), and holding the mould OVER the pot, to be the best approach ~~~> the excess moulten alloy runs directly back into the pot, so makes no mess. You'll find that you can use this ladel and still keep 1/2" of clay kitty litter floating on top (to protect your alloy from oxidizing) because the ladel draws from the bottom of its melt pool, and you don't get KL chunks coming out.

I am finding that once I get things hot!!!, I turn down the heat till I just plod along and everything just works!!! But thats with a "normal" type mold.
Yes, that will work. However, I find that my CBoo quality remains higher if I keep the melt a bit hotter than absolutely necessary, from that perspective. I watch for the slightest frosting (together with the poor fill-out) that indicates the mould is too hot. I then rest the bottom of the mould on that same wet sponge until the hiss intensity just starts to deminish, and I'm back in business again. So, the sponge serves well for cooling the solidified sprue pool (to avoid "cutting mush") and also for cooling the mould itself.

The wet the sprue plate tricks be worth the looking at Bad luck I'm pretty much new to this game. Barra
Mmmmm! Yes! Whut HE said!

[heathydee]

Thanks for all the comments guys . The wet sponge trick is what I will try next . As far as the mould thread is concerned I am all but finished . I am throwing good boolits out of the home made mould with good accuracy ( for hunting anyway) and all that needs to be done is test the expansion of the PP compared to a regular cast boolit . To achieve that end I set up two feet or so of wet paperback novels and fired a Lee 150 gn FP at 2200 fps into the medium at a range of 35 yards followed by the PP 152 gn boolit. The comparative picture is attached although I will also put this one and a couple of others in an album on my personal page.
Both boolits had a retained weight of just under 70 percent of their starting weights . The Lee boolit penetrated just on 13 inches of the wet paper and the PP boolit a little over 8 inches.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Wait till the missus finds out you've used up all of her Mills and Bloom novels for you dang experiment!