M1A or AR type thinking of buying

[frank_1947]

For months now I have had this crazy idea of buying a gun I may shoot only a couple times a year as I do my Stag AR15.

Why do I want to buy this gun, simple, because I can, what will I do with this gun, paper targets at the range and my backyard.

Price area up to $2000

I know these are the question you all will ask in helping my decision.

First I am familiar with the M1a well really the M14 I shot in 1966 in the military and got a expert ribbon with this gun, from what I have read not much difference today as then exsept of coarse fire selector no auto, with that said I love the AR design like the DPMS 308 SASS.

No doubt I cannot shoot as well as I did in 1966 but with my AR15 I still shoot 1/2 to 1 inch groups at 100 yards with red dot, I do not consider 100 yards much for shooting a rifle.

I want to reach out to 300 to 500 yards just for the heck of it.

If you have experience with either platform from 300 to 500 tell me about it and the reliabillity of the newer guns I have not shot this caliber are greater in 30 years.

Thanks

[fourarmed]

I have an M1A that I put together on an aftermarket receiver back when I was shooting high power, and it is an excellent rifle, but I don't think it will group with the DPMS Panther that my cousin bought a year or two ago. That rifle is just an eyepopper.

[frank_1947]

fourarmed, thanks just what im looking for

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Well, if all you're punching is paper, an AR15 chambered in 5.56 won't have a problem reaching 500 yards. I have a 35 year old Colt Sporter with a 20" 1:12 twist barrel that does just fine with 55gr J-word bullets at those ranges. If yours has a 1:9 or faster twist, you can use heavier rounds.

One thing you might've forgotten about the M14 is the recoil. You might see if a friend will let you put 50-100 rounds through one of their M1A or M1 Garand rifles before taking the plunge.

You might also consider an M1 Garand; the last of the actual military rifles civilians could obtain. Being a Veteran myself, I have a distinct preference towards a firearm that's actually spent time protecting our Freedom. Another nice thing about a Garand is that you can complement it with an M1903/ M1903A3 Springfield and/or an M1917 Enfield, as they'll all fire the same .30-06 cartridge. That's particularly handy when you feel like shooting, but don't feel like looking all over for your fired cartridges, or maybe want to shoot some really light loads that wouldn't cycle the action of an M1/M1A, or happen across some old WWII corrosively primed ammo that you wouldn't want to fire in an autoloader.

[frank_1947]

Sierra, thanks some good thoughts there I think I can come up with enough freinds that have all those weapons, and your right I don't remember the recoil of the M14 could it be more then Ar style.

I get bored with my 223 maybe I just need more noise, being retired you are always looking for more toys, I think that is the biggest part of it.

[BruceB]

The M1A works EXTREMELY WELL with cast bullets. Go down to the forum titled "CB Loads/Military Rifles" and see my stickied thread on shooting cast loads in the M1A.

I wouldn't trade my M1A for ANY sort of AR-type rifle.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

An M1A chambered in .308 Win/7.62 NATO will definitely have a good bit more felt recoil than an AR15 chambered in 5.56 NATO. Sure, an M1A weighs a good bit more than an AR15, but if you're shooting FMJ-word ammo, the bullets are going to be two to three (or more) times heavier in 7.62 than 5.56.

When I turned 15, my Dad gave me a Remington-made M1903A3. I fired 150 rounds of WWII M2 AP through it one afternoon, and my shoulder was black & blue for a few days, even though I was wearing a shooting jacket. I shot it about monthly right up until I entered the service. I remember thinking to myself how mild the M16A1's recoil was in comparison to those AP rounds in the '03A3!

It's harder to put together a really accurate M1 or M1A than it is an AR variant. However, that's a good part of the fun and learning.

[frank_1947]

Bruce read your stickie alot of info just one question what is dacron?

Sierra, you misunderstood me I know 223 much less then 308 I meant like the LR 308 versus M1a

[StarMetal]

An M1A chambered in .308 Win/7.62 NATO will definitely have a good bit more felt recoil than an AR15 chambered in 5.56 NATO. Sure, an M1A weighs a good bit more than an AR15, but if you're shooting FMJ-word ammo, the bullets are going to be two to three (or more) times heavier in 7.62 than 5.56.

When I turned 15, my Dad gave me a Remington-made M1903A3. I fired 150 rounds of WWII M2 AP through it one afternoon, and my shoulder was black & blue for a few days, even though I was wearing a shooting jacket. I shot it about monthly right up until I entered the service. I remember thinking to myself how mild the M16A1's recoil was in comparison to those AP rounds in the '03A3!

It's harder to put together a really accurate M1 or M1A than it is an AR variant. However, that's a good part of the fun and learning.

DPMS Classic 20 inch barrel 5.56 weight...................9.0 pounds
M1A National Match ................................................9. 8 pounds

The AR15 hasn't been a light rifle since Nam.

M1A's have lots more recoil then an AR, even an AR10 in 308.

Joe

[frank_1947]

M1A's have lots more recoil then an AR, even an AR10 in 308.


That answered my question Ar10 same as LR308 by dpms

[MtGun44]

Something strange about ARs. I never had any interest in them when I thought that they
were short range spray and pray full-auto jungle carbines.

I borrowed a Colt HBAR and tried it out. WOW!!! I could not believe it. I eventually bought
it from my friend and I have shot a 100-7X at 500 yds in High Power. I never knew ANYBODY
could shoot a rifle like that with open sights, let alone me. Now I know, there are lots better shots
out there than me, but the ARs as a general group are very accurate. Now they are interesting to
me. My Hbarrel Rem 700 .308 varmint bolt gun does not shoot as accurately as my Colt HBAR.
Amazing but true. Rem 700 has been glass bedded, etc. and the HBAR is bone stock. Go figure
that a slam-bam plastic and aluminum carbine is a lot more accurate than a heavy bbl varmint
model of one of the "known good" bolt rifle designs. AND you can by more weird stuff for your
AR than you could ever imagine, some of it is even useful.

Bill

[frank_1947]

mtgun44, thanks

[StarMetal]

M1A's have lots more recoil then an AR, even an AR10 in 308.


That answered my question Ar10 same as LR308 by dpms

Frank, here's another thing you can do with an AR10 that you can't with the M1A....you can buy another upper (cheaper then a whole rifle) in 243, 260Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, and the list goes on and on and on and on.

Joe

[BruceB]

"An M1A chambered in .308 Win/7.62 NATO will definitely have a good bit more felt recoil than an AR15 chambered in 5.56 NATO. Sure, an M1A weighs a good bit more than an AR15, but if you're shooting FMJ-word ammo, the bullets are going to be two to three (or more) times heavier in 7.62 than 5.56."

Uh-huh. Very true.

BUT......this is a cast-bullet board, and the M1A performs superbly with cast bullets. My M1A has functioned well with cast bullets at velocities WAY down in the 1400-fps range. To say the M1A "recoils harder" is to ignore the cream-puff kick from the reduced-speed cast loads.

This is NOT to say that the rifle is limited in performance for casual shooting. At the '09 Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot, I won the long-range event with my M1A, hitting five-for-five from sitting position, IRON SIGHTS and 66-year-old eyes, 14"x16" steel target..... at 415 yards. Very nearly a quarter-mile! The load used the 150-grain Lyman 311466 pushed by....get THIS.... 25 grains of XMP5744! Speed was about 1850 fps, and the rifle functions properly with this INEXPENSIVE load. "Recoil" is laughably light.

If flexibility is needed in a rifle, and cast loads are included in the available ammunition as well as jacketed ammo, I'll guarantee that a 7.62x51 rifle will do FAR more things well than any 5.56 rifle. 'Sides...I just can't warm up to the AR platform. A friend recently bought a DPMS AR-10 in .260 Remington, with all the trimmings. Nice rifle....it leaves me COLD. Purely my opinion, of course.

Frank, do a search for "dacron" and I bet you'll have a week's worth of reading. Dacron is just a trade name for the polyester fiberfill used in quilts, pillows etc. I prefer to use the loose bulk pack type, pulling off tufts of the size I need. Others like to use the quilting sheets, cutting squares of a size they want. Either way seems to work. It's a very useful tool in a handloader's range of tricks, and it does NOT foul anything in any rifle I've used it in...including "gas guns" such as the M1A.

[frank_1947]

starmetal, GOOD POINT!


Bruce, you are like me I can not get into plastic hand guns like glock or xd if it is not a 1911 or a 2011 I don't care for it, I tried both just couldnt warm up to them as you said about AR. This is the gun I am looking at it is called a LR not a AR but same platform.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=19

and this is the M1A I like
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=40

Wonder if I can get both

[frank_1947]

Bruce, by the way that was some good shooting

[O.S.O.K.]

Frank, if I may, offer another alternative?

I have a rifle kit on order from Model 1 in Texas. I've got a Stag lower that it will go on.

Its an AR but not your typical - its a 6.5 Grendel upper.

How about that? The round is an excellent 500 yard paper popper - is a mild kicker and actually outperforms the 7.62x51 NATO in terms of ballistics at range.

44mag.com has C-products mags for $14 IIRC - I bought a bunch of them.

If you're not familiar with the 6.5 Grendel - then check here: http://www.65grendel.com/

Between the two that you are currently looking at, I would personally go with the M1A1 as you already have a nice Stag AR....

[mike in co]

since you have a 2000 dollar budget( rifle only ?) .............................

things to consider:
an armalite ar10t(308).......mags are not cheap but come in 5/10/20/25...nice accuracy out of the box. mine is long throated but shoots well
armalite ar10....get the upper rebuilt with a float tube and true match bbl/chamber and add a match trigger
a stag in 6.8.......a 270 on a med case more than a 223/less than a 308. a great option for 300-500

a dpms 308...........i have no experience, but mags are cheap.

for 300-500yds consider a 1/7 twist ar with 75 gr bullets( or 80's)
i shot a sub .4 with 75's this am with a 1/7 krieger(load development


other things to consider:
factory chambered bbls can be replaced and are seldom true match quality.

lots of great after market triggers 100-200 bucks

is this an open sight rifle ?? figure 700-1000 or more for optics( maybe less if you stick to 500 yds).

get a free float tube, no rail crap and a good bipod..........
( free float tube is really only necessary with sling tension, or lots of shooting, but one less variable)

mike in co

[StarMetal]

I have a 6.5 Grendel. I like because I like out of the ordinary and hard to load for, hard to find component type cartridges. With that said the 6.5 Grendel is too much for the AR15 bolt. It's loaded down. Initially it was loaded around 45k. Then Alexander bumped it up to 50k. When Alexander got Accurate to run reloading data for it it got kicked up to 52K. I've been a member of the 6.5 forum for years and can tell you they have a thing called "The Broken Bolt Club". Nowadays the broken bolts are becoming fewer. Possibly because more have wised up to not hot rod the reloads and of the new steel in the bolts. The brass is prohibitively expensive as is the ammo. The reloading dies are expensive too. The round does shoot exceptionally for the small capacity and it is, by the way, geared to the 123 grain range of 6.5 bullets. I shoot mainly cast from mine.

Be wary of where you buy the C-product magazines for it, because there has also been a long going battle with magazine feeding problems. If they are super cheap they may be the older ones that someone is wanting to unload. C-products have revamped the 6.5 Grendel mag so many times I can't keep track of them. The 6.5 G case is very stubby and very straight walled which doesn't add to great feeding unless everything is just right meaning your reloads, feed ramps, and magazines.

It does beat some 308 loadings ballistics, but then again so do some of the heavier .224 bullets out of the 223/5.56 AR's.

Joe

[Uncle R.]

I have a twenty-some year old National Match M1A. Still tight - very dependable - still accurate - it will hold an honest 1-1/4 MOA with Sierra 168 J-words over a 95% charge of 4064. I sometimes think of it as "Old Reliable." I love it with a glass-bedded walnut-stocked parkerized passion and it's not for sale.
<
I have a twenty-some year old Coal Valley Eagle Arms AR-15 HBAR. Reliable and accurate, it will put 50 gr Hornady J-Words into an honest 1-1/4 MOA when they're loaded over a 95% charge of BL-C2. I love it with a baked-on flat black passion - and it's not for sale.
<
I have a newer Bushmaster AR Varmint Special with a stainless match barrel and a match trigger. It will EASILY hold 55 Gr. Hornady V-Max J-words WAY under 1 MOA and often puts five through a ragged hole at 100 yards. I love it with a floating handguard stainless steel passion and it's not for sale.
<
I'd hate to give up any of them - but if necessity dictated I could keep only one I would keep the M1A and let the ARs go.
<
Why? A good big rifle beats a good little rifle every time - and a .308 trumps a .223 for any kind of serious work. A man may give up his toys with little regret if the situation requires it - but he holds on to his tools a lot more tenaciously!
<
Uncle R.

[StarMetal]

I have a twenty-some year old National Match M1A. Still tight - very dependable - still accurate - it will hold an honest 1-1/4 MOA with Sierra 168 J-words over a 95% charge of 4064. I sometimes think of it as "Old Reliable." I love it with a glass-bedded walnut-stocked parkerized passion and it's not for sale.
<
I have a twenty-some year old Coal Valley Eagle Arms AR-15 HBAR. Reliable and accurate, it will put 50 gr Hornady J-Words into an honest 1-1/4 MOA when they're loaded over a 95% charge of BL-C2. I love it with a baked-on flat black passion - and it's not for sale.
<
I have a newer Bushmaster AR Varmint Special with a stainless match barrel and a match trigger. It will EASILY hold 55 Gr. Hornady V-Max J-words WAY under 1 MOA and often puts five through a ragged hole at 100 yards. I love it with a floating handguard stainless steel passion and it's not for sale.
<
I'd hate to give up any of them - but if necessity dictated I could keep only one I would keep the M1A and let the ARs go.
<
Why? A good big rifle beats a good little rifle every time - and a .308 trumps a .223 for any kind of serious work. A man may give up his toys with little regret if the situation requires it - but he holds on to his tools a lot more tenaciously!
<
Uncle R.

.....and that's why every large country in the world has a large caliber rifle for their armies. NOT Personally myself, if anything every went down in this country I'd want something that shot 5.56 because that's what are army is going to be using. Most the police departments too. I won't let my love and passion for a particular rifle decide my fate. I LOVE my 7mm-08 Sako Mannlicher Carbine, but not in a war. Besided that the poster is going to be shooting paper targets.

Joe

[mike in co]

nice post uncle r.
the good news is we still shoot 7.62x51 nato around the world and the ammo and components are still reasonable.

personally i think an ar in 7.62x39 for close in and blasting, and a bolt for long range.

my ar10t would be one of the last to go

the down side is one can shoot 223's out to 600 plus yards for half the cost of 308 ammo.

2 ar10's......6 ar15's in 223...one in 6ppc...soon to be a 6 beggs.

mike in co

[Uncle R.]

Hey guys - lighten up! I ain't saying the M1A would be my last-ditch SHTF bug-out to the woods rifle. I'm not even saying it's a better combat rifle than an AR - although Joe I would like to point out that the requirements for a lone civilian on the "bug-out" trail or in a SHTF situation are different than those for soldiers. Remember those soldiers probably make up a platoon, or a rifle squad - those soldiers may well have air support and MGs and logistics people who resupply them - from trucks!
<
I'm just saying that you can do a lot more - harder and deeper and from longer range - with a shot or two from a .308 than you can with a shot or two from a .223 - that you can deal with more problems - er, situations - better with the .308 - especially when you have to deal with them alone.
<
I AIN'T saying ARs aren't good. Remember - I said I love my ARs. I shoot them more often than I do the old M1A - but that's because I'm shooting paper or prairie dogs or 8" steel plates or bowling pins or... If I was sniping at something under 400 yards I'd take my ARs in a second - and like 'em. I'm just saying that If I ever have to shoot at something that could bite <HARD!> or (Heaven Forbid!) something that could shoot back that 7.62 would start looking awful good compared to what the good Colonel called a "poodle shooter." That's all I'm saying...
Uncle R.

[StarMetal]

Hey guys - lighten up! I ain't saying the M1A would be my last-ditch SHTF bug-out to the woods rifle. I'm not even saying it's a better combat rifle than an AR - although Joe I would like to point out that the requirements for a lone civilian on the "bug-out" trail or in a SHTF situation are different than those for soldiers. Remember those soldiers probably make up a platoon, or a rifle squad - those soldiers may well have air support and MGs and logistics people who resupply them - from trucks!
<
I'm just saying that you can do a lot more - harder and deeper and from longer range - with a shot or two from a .308 than you can with a shot or two from a .223 - that you can deal with more problems - er, situations - better with the .308 - especially when you have to deal with them alone.
<
I AIN'T saying ARs aren't good. Remember - I said I love my ARs. I shoot them more often than I do the old M1A - but that's because I'm shooting paper or prairie dogs or 8" steel plates or bowling pins or... If I was sniping at something under 400 yards I'd take my ARs in a second - and like 'em. I'm just saying that If I ever have to shoot at something that could bite <HARD!> or (Heaven Forbid!) something that could shoot back that 7.62 would start looking awful good compared to what the good Colonel called a "poodle shooter." That's all I'm saying...
Uncle R.


Well in that case Uncle R. I'd take some form of AR 10 or H&K 91 any day over an M1A or M14. [smilie=1:

Joe

[rvpilot76]

Hey guys - lighten up! I ain't saying the M1A would be my last-ditch SHTF bug-out to the woods rifle. I'm not even saying it's a better combat rifle than an AR - although Joe I would like to point out that the requirements for a lone civilian on the "bug-out" trail or in a SHTF situation are different than those for soldiers. Remember those soldiers probably make up a platoon, or a rifle squad - those soldiers may well have air support and MGs and logistics people who resupply them - from trucks!
<
I'm just saying that you can do a lot more - harder and deeper and from longer range - with a shot or two from a .308 than you can with a shot or two from a .223 - that you can deal with more problems - er, situations - better with the .308 - especially when you have to deal with them alone.
<
I AIN'T saying ARs aren't good. Remember - I said I love my ARs. I shoot them more often than I do the old M1A - but that's because I'm shooting paper or prairie dogs or 8" steel plates or bowling pins or... If I was sniping at something under 400 yards I'd take my ARs in a second - and like 'em. I'm just saying that If I ever have to shoot at something that could bite <HARD!> or (Heaven Forbid!) something that could shoot back that 7.62 would start looking awful good compared to what the good Colonel called a "poodle shooter." That's all I'm saying...
Uncle R.

Respectfully and WELL said, Uncle R.

[frank_1947]

O.S.O.K

thanks been thinking about different uppers

[johnly]

I have a pair of Gary Nelson Super Match M1As and a reworked rifle in a standard stock, along with a bunch of AR-15 in various calibers. Without a floating handguard on the ARs, I would put my money on the M1A as the POI of ARs are much more subject to shifting as compared to M1A. With a floating handguard and a better trigger, it is easier to shoot better scores with the AR. Well tuned, either rifle is capable of being sub-MOA shooters

John

[Uncle R.]

Well in that case Uncle R. I'd take some form of AR 10 or H&K 91 any day over an M1A or M14. [smilie=1:

Joe

Joe - I have a friend with a genuine HK-91 (bought way back in the 80s) and it's an awesome rifle. VERY reliable - about as accurate as my match M1A from the bench, but it has an awful - absolutely awful trigger - and you know what that can do to real-world shooting results. Real HKs are scarce and expensive nowadays - and some of the "substitute" guns are poor quality. Never touched a PTR91 but they might be a better choice. (?) I don't much care for the HK ergonomics either but I realize that's subjective and may be mostly because I haven't used 'em a lot.
<
AR-10s I have no experience with - but I've read that they have some - er - issues. Don't know if that's real or not. I ain't so foolish as to believe everything I read. <GRIN> I kinda like the idea of swapping uppers on a "large frame" rifle though - I can see where THAT could be a handy platform to have.
Uncle R.

[frank_1947]

Some great post you guys, this all started last week or so ago you all know I sell brass well the indoor range that I take care of is also a full line store and just a wall of guns AR all over everwhere and a bunch of them little short FNs they call bull pups and one used Springfield M1A they just hung it on the wall it was a loaded model price was$1600 my price was $1400 you could tell maybe a box of ammo been shot through it maybe not it was a Beauty, man when I first saw it I said woo as my eyes lit up a M14 wow the owner said take it home now I handled it awhile you know how you do when trying one on, and I put it down went got my 4 buckets of brass and went home, came back next day it was gone. Going in that dam place is like going in a candy store when I was a kid, twice and three times a week I am in there and it takes all the resistants I have not to buy something on a monthly basis .

I really like the M1A and the LR-308 I may just buy both one on one month and the other a month or two later. It is not a matter of what they can or can't do it is they are just so friggen nice, I look at guns like some cars a 55 chevy, 64 plymouth hemi, a 66 GTO or a brand new 2010 Camaro 425 hoarse, I would like to have them all but I know I can't have all those cars but guns or a heck of alot cheaper to buy and a great investment I had a 700BDL left handed 30-06 I bought in the 70s for $168 sold it in the 90s for $375

Most likely I will have to wait on the M1A and put on order and I already know the LR 308s the shop is waiting on them I saw a bunch of both on Gunbroker but I get a good discount with my guys at the shop the LR that I put a link to list for over $2100 I can buy for $1800 since I located some friends who have both the M1A and AR 10 I willbe shooting both within the next few weeks.

[frank_1947]

johnly thatwas the first thing I did to my AR when I got it put free floating tube with rails andgas block.

http://www.cmbrass.com/My_Gun_s.html
this is just a few of my guns you will notice AR is left handed

[StarMetal]

Joe - I have a friend with a genuine HK-91 (bought way back in the 80s) and it's an awesome rifle. VERY reliable - about as accurate as my match M1A from the bench, but it has an awful - absolutely awful trigger - and you know what that can do to real-world shooting results. Real HKs are scarce and expensive nowadays - and some of the "substitute" guns are poor quality. Never touched a PTR91 but they might be a better choice. (?) I don't much care for the HK ergonomics either but I realize that's subjective and may be mostly because I haven't used 'em a lot.
<
AR-10s I have no experience with - but I've read that they have some - er - issues. Don't know if that's real or not. I ain't so foolish as to believe everything I read. <GRIN> I kinda like the idea of swapping uppers on a "large frame" rifle though - I can see where THAT could be a handy platform to have.
Uncle R.


You should see an HK PS 1 sniper rifle shoot!!! Far as I'm concerned all rifles have "issues". All have good and bad features.

Most the issues I've heard with the AR 10's are magazine being number one. The AR in any caliber is inherently accurate. Yes you can get some bad ones.

Joe

[mike in co]

Most the issues I've heard with the AR 10's are magazine being number one.
Joe

i think they are on version 4....it is closer to an ar15 20rd mag than the original m14 converted mags.

i dont have any of the new mags, but do have some of the alloy follower mags they made up for the mil a few yrs back.

you can always check out armalite's forum on the ar15.com site

mike in co

[johnly]

You should see an HK PS 1 sniper rifle shoot!!! Far as I'm concerned all rifles have "issues". All have good and bad features.

Most the issues I've heard with the AR 10's are magazine being number one. The AR in any caliber is inherently accurate. Yes you can get some bad ones.

Joe
\hn
HK PSG-1 rock. Scary accurate and 100% reliable.

John

[technetium-99m]

My M1a was cool, but for a $1,500 rifle it was rather disappointing. I could never get it to group better than 2 inches at 100, it weighed something like 12 pounds, and mounting an optic required $250 to get a solid mount.

For less money and much less weight I have a 20" heavy barrel AR that will shoot 3/4 inches all day from the magazine and with the integral picatinny rail will take any optic known to man with nothing needed but appropriate rings. Additionally, my AR is a lot easier on my brass, I get 2x as many loadings as with my M1a (it absolutely trashed brass).

[StarMetal]

My M1a was cool, but for a $1,500 rifle it was rather disappointing. I could never get it to group better than 2 inches at 100, it weighed something like 12 pounds, and mounting an optic required $250 to get a solid mount.

For less money and much less weight I have a 20" heavy barrel AR that will shoot 3/4 inches all day from the magazine and with the integral picatinny rail will take any optic known to man with nothing needed but appropriate rings. Additionally, my AR is a lot easier on my brass, I get 2x as many loadings as with my M1a (it absolutely trashed brass).

Oh yeah, I was going to mention to the original poster that it's much easier and cheaper to mount a scope on the AR flattops and because you can switch iron sights out you have an unlimited variety of sights to choose from...can't do that on a M1A. Throw in that your AR will be pretty impervious to the elements too.

Joe

[redneckdan]

Speaking purely from a high power across the course perspective, the AR platform wins hands down. M1A/M14 is much more work to get it to shoot as well as an AR, and even then it doesn't stay that way for very long. The AR is simple, just free float a good barrel, as long as nothing is binding the rifle will shoot well. Not so with the M1A, stuff like bedding has to be redone over the long haul in order to maintain accuracy. That said, I ditched my AR and am in the market for a M1A. The AR was good for learning the basics of high power shooting, now that I'm past my competitive phase and do it for fun I want the character of the M1A.

[O.S.O.K.]

Star Metal - first I have heard of broken bolts. Do you mean the bolt head or the bolt carrier? (I'm referring to your reply about the 6.5 Grendel)

Is this recent information? I mean, the 6.5 Grendel went through some developement - is this more developmental issues that have been solved?

You can form the cases from 7.62x39 brass which is cheap and available. Also, I didn't think the brass from Alexander was very expensive when I checked - nor the Lee dies that they sell. Especially since they were in stock! And the catalog houses are now stocking brass and dies too. Wolf came out with a new loading recently as well.

I did a lot of checking before ordering the rifle kit and saw nothing about any of those issues - broken bolts, bad c-products mags (they guarantee their mags don't they?), etc.

I got my c-product mags from 44mag.com which has given me excellent service.

Not saying you're wrong or anyting like that - just that this is the very first of this that I've heard and like I said, I did a lot of checking around - but all of my information is recent, to-date from members and 6.5 Grendel owners on other gun boards, which made me think perhaps you saw this during develpment stages?

I was referring to factory ammo specs for the comparisson to 7.62x51 NATO BTW.

If I was witnessing all of those kinds of issues, I would have definately put the Grendel on the back burner or in the interesting but not for me box...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing for or against at this point...

[StarMetal]

Star Metal - first I have heard of broken bolts. Do you mean the bolt head or the bolt carrier?

Is this recent information? I mean, the 6.5 Grendel went through some developement - is this more developmental issues that have been solved?

You can form the cases from 7.62x39 brass which is cheap and available. Also, I didn't think the brass from Alexander was very expensive when I checked - nor the Lee dies that they sell. Especially since they were in stock! And the catalog houses are now stocking brass and dies too. Wolf came out with a new loading recently as well.

I did a lot of checking before ordering the rifle kit and saw nothing about any of those issues - broken bolts, bad c-products mags (they guarantee their mags don't they?), etc.

I got my c-product mags from 44mag.com which has given me excellent service.

Not saying you're wrong or anyting like that - just that this is the very first of this that I've heard and like I said, I did a lot of checking around - but all of my information is recent, to-date from members and 6.5 Grendel owners on other gun boards, which made me think perhaps you saw this during develpment stages?

I was referring to factory ammo specs for the comparisson to 7.62x51 NATO BTW.

If I was witnessing all of those kinds of issues, I would have definately put the Grendel on the back burner or in the interesting but not for me box...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing for or against at this point...

Broken bolt lugs, not the carriers. They try to keep it hush hush on the bolt on that forum because Bill Alexander who started the company, use to use it for his own forum although another fellow who goes by the Grendelizer pay for and owns it. They are basically a pep raly forum for the AA company.

There's so much you haven't read there. The brass has gone up quite a lot. When I bought mine it was swallowable. The 7.62x39 brass isn't no ways as strong as the Lapua brass, plus it's large rifle primered. When forming you always get a donut on the neck that must be dealt with for the upmost accuracy. Don't use the Wolf brass it's junk.

The Lee dies are junk. One thing they size the necks down too far. Another thing the vent hole scratched the brass and third the decapping pin isn't small enough to pass through the Lapua very small flash hole. I tuned up a set of Lee dies until I got my Redding bushing die. I use the Forster seater die to seat my bullets. I like that die a lot. The original loads for the 6.5 Grendel call for CCI magnum small rifle primers.

Arne Brennan was fooling around with a 6mmPPC case necked up to 6.5 in AR 15 many hears before Bill Alexander though of it. Arne got his barrels from Lothar Walther. So Lothar Walther put Arne and Bill together. They struck a friendship. Lothar Walther actually designed the chamber specifications. Lapua took the submitted cartridge case design and made a few changes, like moving the shoulder out further. The first 6.5 Grendel barrels were all made by Lothar Walther. The bolts Arne experimented with were opened up 5.56 bolts. Initially Bill started using opened up 5.56 bolt, but if you notice a 5.56 bolt has circumference groove cut in the bolt face, so Bill recessed his bolt faces an additional .011 inch. This was made up when setting the head space. If you ask Bill about this he will tell you undercutting the lugs (which the bolt face recess does) actually gives the lugs more flex and helps from breaking them. Pure BS. He just didn't want you to know he was using 5.56 bolts. So lots of bolts were getting broken. The friendship between Arne and Bill fell apart. So did the deal with Lothar Walther. So Lothar Walther started making their own version of the 6.5 Grendel (it's exactly 100 percent the same) calling it the 6.5 CSS. It got the CSS name because they own Competition Shooting Sports. Bill gets barrels from whoever he can now, but his premium barrel is from Steve Saterns of Satern's Barrels in Iowa. Bill later on changed the steel in the bolt to one he found used in a helicopter rotor shaft I believe. Then when JP announced an enhanced stronger steel bolt using the 9310 series steel Bill more or less had his bolts made of that. With better steel and prudent reloading the broken bolts are becoming fewer. Bill Alexander did pretty much come up with the 50 Beowulf but I think LWRC had something to do with it and there was a falling out there too. Bill burns his bridges. He no longer is CEO of Alexander Arms, is just an engineer there, and that's questionable if he really is one. Two business now run the company. The ridiculous patenting of the 6.5 Grendel and 50 Beowulf has hindered it's growth immensely. Some on that forum believe that 6.5 Grendel will become a military round or that the military is interested in it and that doesn't appear so at the moment. The case is too stubby, too short to link, and too straight walled. So there you have the condensed story of Alexander Arms.

I have the very early C-product mag and my work just great. Many have had problems with them. It's all on the forum. Many have problems being able to size the brass down to fit the chambers for the 6.5 Grendel too.

Joe

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Lots of interesting opinions ;)

Redneckdan, I really appreciate the way you expressed your opinion. I hope our original poster does, too.

Someone on the site has a signature line which states:
"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

Well, that depends upon your perspective; where you started from, and where are you headed.

Anyone can make an accurate rifle from the AR platform. You can buy parts right off the shelf, throw them on, and you know it's going to shoot better than it did before. It's really like shooting fish in a barrel; the outcome is virtually guaranteed.

But to make an M1/M1A/M14 shoot accurately, and keep it accurate - now that's a challenge.

The US Marine Corps brought a number of M14's out of mothballs and tuned them up for the Designated Marksman mission. As they already had the rifles in armories, and had a number of very skilled armorers, they were able to convert the M14s to DM rifles at the cost of $600 each. This was about 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of procuring other firearms for the mission.

There's nothing wrong with the AR platform, other than it's so easy to make it accurate that it's pretty boring. My bone-stock '74 vintage Colt Sporter will shoot MOA all day if I'm up to it.

My M1903 Springfields, M1 Garands and M1917 Enfields are much more finicky, and interesting. ;) They're more like women - they're far less predictable than an AR platform. They represent much more of an interesting challenge, where the variables are many and oftentimes perplexing to determine.

You don't have to get to "know" an AR platform rifle, really. You shoot it, it hits the target. No challenge.

But you really do have to get to know the older battle rifles.

And they sure look good in walnut furniture.

[StarMetal]

Frank, if I may, offer another alternative?

I have a rifle kit on order from Model 1 in Texas. I've got a Stag lower that it will go on.

Its an AR but not your typical - its a 6.5 Grendel upper.

How about that? The round is an excellent 500 yard paper popper - is a mild kicker and actually outperforms the 7.62x51 NATO in terms of ballistics at range.

44mag.com has C-products mags for $14 IIRC - I bought a bunch of them.

If you're not familiar with the 6.5 Grendel - then check here: http://www.65grendel.com/

Between the two that you are currently looking at, I would personally go with the M1A1 as you already have a nice Stag AR....

Sir here is the latest magazine issue thread over at the 6.5 forum:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6022&page=1&pp=25

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Thank you for the addtional inormation/insight Joe.

I actually got no information from the Alexander Arms forum for the very reason that you stated - I didn't want any rah rah - just fact.

Now I did read that the current (I bought my c-products mags a couple weeks ago) 10 and 25 rounders (that's what I bought) work just fine - from that link you posted.

But how about Model-1 in Texas? Are you familiar with their 6.5 Grendel kits? I mean, what is your opinion of them?

Point blank: should I cancel my order and send the mags back to 44mag? That's what I really want to know.

I do not want a finicky, unreliable shooter. I don't mind a cartridge that needs specific loading - I've been at it for many years and can handle that with little trouble.

I was under the impression that the cartridge/rifle were fully developed and ready to go.

I see that that brass from AA is $67/100 - not great but I could live with that if they don't get beat to schitz in the cyling process.

Again, you're opinion on this is greatly appreciated.

[StarMetal]

Thank you for the addtional inormation/insight Joe.

I actually got no information from the Alexander Arms forum for the very reason that you stated - I didn't want any rah rah - just fact.

Now I did read that the current (I bought my c-products mags a couple weeks ago) 10 and 25 rounders (that's what I bought) work just fine - from that link you posted.

But how about Model-1 in Texas? Are you familiar with their 6.5 Grendel kits? I mean, what is your opinion of them?

Point blank: should I cancel my order and send the mags back to 44mag? That's what I really want to know.

I do not want a finicky, unreliable shooter. I don't mind a cartridge that needs specific loading - I've been at it for many years and can handle that with little trouble.

I was under the impression that the cartridge/rifle were fully developed and ready to go.

I see that that brass from AA is $67/100 - not great but I could live with that if they don't get beat to schitz in the cyling process.

Again, you're opinion on this is greatly appreciated.

Each rifle is individual. My early magazines work great in my rifle. Get this....I built a 7.62x39 upper for my AR 15. Well you probably also know C-Products makes a 7.62x39 mag for the AR. I used my 6.5 Grendel mags and it even feeds that round perfect.

So no, don't send them back, try them first.

Want my opinion. I haven't shot a Satern barrel and they are quite slow producing them and very hard to get because of that. With that said hands down the best 6.5 Grendel barrel is the Lothar Walther. Alexander doesn't necessarily buy the top shelf product. If it were me I'd buy the Lothar Walther barrel, a good quality upper and lower, and I'd get one of the 9310 steel enhanced bolts. That's what I would do. In fact I did that except for the bolt because it wasn't out yet. I tend to go with the people that have been building AR's for the longest time. Like they say, Colt made the 1911 so long they made it good. I believe that because it's taken all those years for other manufacturers to catch up with them.

Joe

[GabbyM]

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/index.htm

For your 2K price tag you can put together a very nice AR match rifle. Sights and all. Check out the uppers at White Oaks Armament link above. You could use the lower you have and if you add a nice trigger you'd have it when using your old lightweight upper too. They have nice varmint barrels in 1-12” twist which would shoot cast boolits well. Also 1-11” twist 6.8mm SPC barrels which I'd like to see someone try with cast. I sent some of my 122gr Loverins off last year to a fellow but I guess his project got put aside. That or it fell flat and he didn't want to write about it.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thanks Joe.

[c3d4b2]

Originally Posted by technetium-99m View Post
My M1a was cool, but for a $1,500 rifle it was rather disappointing. I could never get it to group better than 2 inches at 100, it weighed something like 12 pounds, and mounting an optic required $250 to get a solid mount.

For less money and much less weight I have a 20" heavy barrel AR that will shoot 3/4 inches all day from the magazine and with the integral picatinny rail will take any optic known to man with nothing needed but appropriate rings. Additionally, my AR is a lot easier on my brass, I get 2x as many loadings as with my M1a (it absolutely trashed brass).

When I was looking at this choice the advice I was given is the Garand's and M1A's are harder to get top notch accuracy out of, and they are harder to keep shooting at that level of accuracy (they need to be rebedded frequently). The AR on the other hand, is easier to get match accuracy, and they do not need to be sent back in to be reworked. The other benifit of the AR that was pointed out to me was they were cheaper to shoot because the bullets, brass and powder cost less per round.

[O.S.O.K.]

Hey Joe - the Model 1 comes with an E.R. Shaw barrel.... ? Frank do you have any interest in this or should I start a new thread - sorry for the hijack!

[frank_1947]

WOW, holy smoke lot of great info, 6.5 from what I am reading I do not want to mess with it for now, M1A I will put on hold and go with AR platform when available DPMS LR 308.

Biggest Selling point you all made was AR platform out of box can do anything accuracy stays true M1A not so much needs care I don't want to work on anything I am constantly working on my competitin pistol and just want to grab it and shoot and also the AR platform offers many accesories ready to mount, I think my thing was just old time sake on the M1A, and the history behind it, I may get one later just for collection purpose and occasional shot or two.

Next is the fact with the lower in 308 I can go to many uppers in several different calibers you just can't beat that.

[StarMetal]

Hey Joe - the Model 1 comes with an E.R. Shaw barrel.... ? Frank do you have any interest in this or should I start a new thread - sorry for the hijack!

E.R. Shaw is a producer of mass economy barrels. That doesn't mean they won't shoot good. Some shoot really great. Have I owned any? Yes. They aren't a premium barrel maker. Right now I believe there is AA, Model 1, J&T (stay away from any of their AR's) Sabre Arms, Les Baer, and I think JP Enterprises make the 6.5 Grendel. I may have missed a few. On AA's premium rifle the barrel is Satern which is pretty darn impossible to get. Now Lothar Walter doesn't make the complete rifle, yet, they do make the barrels ready to go. When I bought mine I got the barrel of course, the bolt, and gas block. I think soon they will offer uppers and maybe complete rifles.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Again, thanks.

[frank_1947]

OSOK , no problem at all It is a learning period for me, I read everythnig you guys write.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thanks Frank - I was begining to feel pretty bad because of all the posts dedicated to the 6.5...

[GabbyM]

I lean towards bolt guns as my AR's see little use. They are fun for about ten minutes then want to go beyond what they can do.

6.5mm Creedmoor is the hot ticket for 1K yards . With a 2K $ budget you can put $800 on a rifle and $900 in optics then use the rest for dies and brass. This time of year there are lots of cantaloupe around. Great 1K reactive targets.,

I know autos shoot real fast but.!! Buy the time the bullet hits target my case is on the ground and while I'm thinking of how to comp for the next shot the bolt finds it's way home. Only thing that slows my rate of fire is barrel heat rising up to cause a marriage to where I can't hit my target. Then at 54 years of age I can't hump enough ammo to even think about weight of fire. If I did I'd use a shotgun full of buck shot.

For a nice AR upper look at http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/index.htm

their 26” barrel with extended gas port location is as close as you'll get to an AR that will shoot at varmints. But bolt guns are better.

[Silvertip 44]

From what i see every time I go to the range the big craze these days is for the black rifle. Nearly every newcomer (pay by the day) will be running bunches of ammo through their new acquisition----an AR of some type.
When I start setting up and uncase one or all three of my M1A's everyone has to come look, smell and have the want to touch them. They are also amazed at the superbly tight groups the two fully accurized NM rifles whoot for me. The standard is almost as good but i just can't put three bullets in 1/2 inch at 100 with it using open sights as I can with the other two since they are both scoped.
I have a Bushmaster XM-15 but it just doesn't have the same feel as a fine wood and steel MBR. I trained with the M14 years ago and carried it for a couple of years so maybe that is why i would prefer it over any AR type rifle.
I won't sit here and degrade the AR, however, because it certainly has it's place and is also a fine rifle. I did see an AR-10 in .308 recently with stainless bull barrel and nice scope and would have bought it if I could have parted with the money. I drooled over it for a while, but decided in my bank accounts best interest I had better walk away.
One beautiful aspect of these rifles especially the M1 Garands and M1As can be fully accurized by a competent armorer to develop their full accuracy potential, then so can the AR.
I would recommend, though, for that kind of work the weapon must be taken to a gunsmith who really knows and specializes in that platform of rifle whatever it may be.
This is the good thing about having a retired army armorer living close to me. He has accurized all four of my M1s and three M1As and he is true magic.
So, therefore, Frank, you have my .02 worth. I guess you can tell right off that I am partial to wood and steel, but when you spend your money or I spend mine, we will spend it on our own desires and buy what we want.
Good luck with your decision.

[frank_1947]

would have bought it if I could have parted with the money. I drooled over it for a while, but decided in my bank accounts best interest I had better walk away.


Been there a bunch.

Thanks Silvertip 44

[Silvertip 44]

I now notice you are in Missouri. That's where I first met the M14, a fine hunk of Winchester, at an out of the way place called Fort Leonard Wood near the little town of Rolla.
I fired expert with it and got two 3 day passes so that I could meet my young (late) wife in St. Louis.
I rekon that's where I truly developed my passion for it and vowed that one day I might be lucky enough to have one. Well, that was 42 years ago and I now have three.

[frank_1947]

small world I also have the SAEMR
http://www.usmilitarystuff.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_8&products_id=92

This states M16 but I shot M14 guess they figured if you can do it with a M14 a M16 going to be alot easier.

43 Years ago when I had hair and well under 200lbs could bend over and tie my shoes , no more