Took some tinkering, but I think I got the 45-120 to shoot

[mnzrxer]

As I was looking through the gun library at Cabela's this spring I cam across a Pedersoli "Quigley" for a pretty good price. It didn't look like it had ever been shot, had the Creedmore sight and was priced right. Only problem was the caliber, 45-120. I hadn't read anything good about the 3 1/4" cartridge unless using a lot of powder and getting a busted shoulder are good things. Still, I couldn't pass up on the deal and figured I would take on the challenge of the longest .45.

I have played with two powders, three different boolits, two different boolit diameters, differing powder compression and overall lengths. Here are the results of my latest load, 3 shots in 2 1/2". This is shot at 200 yards, sitting with cross sticks. No cleaning between shots.

The load is Norma brass capped with a Winchester WLRM primer (couldn't find anything else after buying the rifle), 120.0 grains (by weight) of GOEX cartridge topped with a 0.060" veggie wad and all topped with a SAECO #745 525 gr. Semi Point boolit sized 0.459" and lubed with SPG. Muzzle velocity with this combo is 1407 FPS. It does make for quite a shove on the shoulder, but I don't think it is any worse than my M70 Featherweight with near max .308 Win loads (both rifles have steel butt plates).

[RMulhern]

Now back off to 800 yds. and if it'll shoot you 10" ten shot groups.....you may be on to something!

[martinibelgian]

Don't underestimate the round - last HBSA long-range shoot in Bisley, UK was WON by a shooter (Robinson Nitsche, a German) using a 45-120 - this was an aggregate of 900 and 1,000 yds. So someone who knows what he is doing can make it shoot - even at long range.

[mnzrxer]

Now I need to find somewhere to shoot more than 200 yards. I hear there is a range not too far from me with a 500 yard backstop. Maybe I need to invest in a rangefinder and just set up targets out in the field behind the house.

[excess650]

Excellent! I've never heard anything good about any of the 3-1/4" cases, so its good to hear that its working for you. FWIW, that same bullet from a 45-70 with ffg will make roughly 1150fps.

Something else to try would be Goex or Swiss Fg. Fg is acutally the correct granulation for rifle cartridges. Swiss and Goex Express are probably the closest current powders to the rifle powders of the 19th century.

[John Boy]

.
45 x 3.25" (AKA45/120) Clive Taylor “ The Brit”
Bullet: NEI 349J cast from new flashing lead (99.6% pure). Casts at 585 grn nominal and .461 dia. and are not sized. Bullets are weighed and batched in groups 583.6/584.5, 584.6/585.5, 585.6/586.5 anything above or below discarded (very few). I generally cast 500 - 1000 at a time which makes this technique viable. Comps. shot from one batch. Not indexed. Finger seated. Not crimped.
Lube: Home brew. Pan lubed. All grooves filled.
Wad: Wax card from milk carton. Punched with die cutter made by Charlie Higginbottom
Grease Cookie: 11mm thick of home brew. Cookie cut from pan.
Beeswax Wad: Cookie cut from Hive Starter sheets.
Case: HDS trimmed to 3.245. Not resized at all. Not sorted or indexed. Scrubbed internally after shoot and vibrated in crushed corn and brasso for 2 hours before reloading.
Powder: Kicker load of 45 grains of Swiss #4 (1.5fg to you) poured into case. 70 grains of Wano fg (socked) poured into case. Both charges are weighed using Dillon D-Terminator. Compressed .5" using Buffalo Arms compression die.
Primer: Remingtom 9 1/2 Large Rifle seated with Lee Auto Prime

[mnzrxer]

Excellent! I've never heard anything good about any of the 3-1/4" cases, so its good to hear that its working for you. FWIW, that same bullet from a 45-70 with ffg will make roughly 1150fps.

Something else to try would be Goex or Swiss Fg. Fg is acutally the correct granulation for rifle cartridges. Swiss and Goex Express are probably the closest current powders to the rifle powders of the 19th century.

I started out with some Swiss Fg but ran out before getting the bullet design, sizing, etc. sorted. Swiss did seem to have a velocity advantage over the GOEX, but they were different granulation size. The only powder I could find around my neck of the woods was Cartridge. I did manage to find some GOEX Fg just this weekend, but now am out of primers :-x. Anyone tried standard rifle primers? I really don't want to experience a hang fire with this beast, so I haven't tried the non-magnums yet.

I haven't shot 45-120 a whole bunch yet, but it seems a lot of people make too much work out of loading BP cartridges. Grease cookies, wads of various materials, duplex loads, etc. I have no doubt all that work results in fabulous performance for those folks, but it sure scares the beginner to read all that. Based on what I had read I didn't even intend to shoot this rifle. I picked it up because the price was right and figured I could sell/trade it for a rifle in a "friendlier" caliber. Then Cabela's had relatively cheap brass and I decided to just go for it, accept the challenge and see what I could do. I have been trying to keep things as simple as possible while experimenting to come up with an accurate load. So far, I am pleased with the results. Can't wait to get some primers so I can chuck some lead a few hundred more yards down range.

[mnzrxer]

.
45 x 3.25" (AKA45/120) Clive Taylor “ The Brit”

Wad: Wax card from milk carton. Punched with die cutter made by Charlie Higginbottom
Grease Cookie: 11mm thick of home brew. Cookie cut from pan.
Beeswax Wad: Cookie cut from Hive Starter sheets.


I assume the card wad is over the powder, then the grease cookie, then the beeswax wad and finally the boolit? Or is the card wad against the boolit so nothing sticks to the base of the projectile?

[Southern Son]

i use the bees wax wad between the grease cookie and the powder, then a LDPE wad under the boolit. About the primer, I don't know anyone I shoot BPCR with that is using magnum rifle primers. One bloke is using standard LR in a 45/90, another using Bench Rest Primers in a 50/90. I have heard of some shooters using Large Pistol primers in the 45/100. I know that when I first started reading about BPCR and getting interested in it, many shooters were using LR Magnums in the belief that the "hotter" primer would "burn off" more of the fowling. I think that most of the top shooters have gone away from that thinking now. I have been trying a newspaper wad over the top of the primer and under the powder in my 45/70, and I got the idea when reading about someone loading for a 45/100.

[excess650]

When I did use a beeswax wad in my 45-70s, it was directly on the powder, and under the card wad. The beeswax could be seen firmly attached to the card wad after shooting, and I believed it acted as a gas seal. It won't melt or contaminate the powder.

I've only used a grease cookie under PP bullets, and only 3/16" at most. 7/16" sounds like quite a grease cookie, but it certainly uses some of that case capacity.

I dissected a few 11mm Mauser rounds with PP from the mid 1880s. They had what appeared to be fg under a couple of card wads with a 1/8" grease cookie between. The fg was still glossy and most poured rather easily from the cases, so wasn't tightly compressed.

As for primers, I never found any loads in 45-70, 40-70BN, 40-65, 40-60M, 40-50SBN, or 38-55 that showed preference for Mag primers. The 38-55s showed a distinct preference for WLR, but the others worked better with large pistol primers. Like anything else, use what works in your rifle.

WOW! I can't believe he's using 1/2" compression. Over-compressing can fracture the grains and will result in an altered burn rate. I've found that by decreasing compression from 3/16" on ffg down to less than 1/8" it leaves less fouling......whatever works!

[mnzrxer]

Glad to hear folks are using non magnum primers without issues. I haven't seen any load data for the 45-120 (except what John Boy posted above) that didn't use magnum primers. I figured the mag primers were there simply to ignite all that powder and make sure it actually did something rather than get thrown out of the barrel unburnt. More testing to do, I guess. Results to follow.

Southern Son, what is the newspaper wad under the powder supposed to do?

[Southern Son]

I have read a few times now that modern primers are heaps hotter than what were being used when black powder first started going into a cartridge. Smokeless powder is much harder to ignite so it needs the additional heat, but black powder does not need it. Some shooters believe that the extra heat in modern primers contribute to fowling, some say that the extra heat causes greater velocity variation (extream spreads and/or standard deviation). I have also read a theory that the powder gets down into the flash hole and primer pocket, and this can cause velocity change. I have yet to make up my mind.

In my 45/70 I load 75 grains of FFg Wano. I have chronographed those loads and had standard deviation down to 8 fps with the newspaper wad over the primer (I just cut a wad of newspaper and push it down to the bottom of the case, then pour the powder through my drop tube into the case on top of the newspaper wad).

I got the Chrony after I started using the newspaper wad. I want to load a few without it now that I have a Chrony and see for myself if the over primer wad is actually doing anything for the velocity. After my last big shoot, I did notice that the newspaper wad was still in many of the cases, mostly burn up, and it was a pain it the butt to get out of some of them.

Keep us posted on your 45/120, I have not seen one here in Oz, there maybe one out there, but I have not yet seen it. The last time I looked at .45 Basic Brass here in Oz, I think that the price was $8.00 per individual case.

[mnzrxer]

I wouldn't be shooting this thing if brass cost THAT much. Cabela's here has had Norma 45 basic brass on sale for about $65 / 50. That is by far the best price I have found.

So the newspaper wad is just to keep powder out of the flash hole?

[Pathfinder1cav]

MNZRXR,
The NP wads will lower your SD..
Gert, (MARTINIBELGIAN) is correct that Robinson shoots his custom RB in .45-120 very well.
However, when I was shooting shoulder to shoulder with him in Cape Town, he would get up & flex his arm & shoulder every 2-3 shots.. A lot of pain to get another 100 fps over a .45-90.. maybe OK for a one or two shot hunting situation, but does not make sense for long strings.
I had a friend in Colo. pick one up cheap, because someone lightened it into a hunting gun.. Broke his collar bone TWICE! then rebarreled it to a .45-70.

[mnzrxer]

I don't have any intention of shooting matches with it right now. Dad has the same rifle in a 45-110 and we just shoot for the fun of it. I would like to hunt with it at some point, but right now Dad and I are just competing with each other for accuracy.

Last time I shot I sent 14 rounds down range in about 30 minutes with nothing other than a T shirt to cover the shoulder. The shoulder wasn't really sore, but my arms were tired from holding that heavy beast up. Even with the cross sticks it gets heavy after a while. I also have no intention of shooting prone or in any other position that doesn't allow my shoulder to get shoved out of the way. Sitting is no problem as long as I sit upright and don't lean into it too much. I would not want to shoot a 45-120 in any lighter rifle either.