40-70 Remington

[ten-mile]

I have an original #1 Sporting Rifle in 40-70 Remington. It has a 34" barrel, single set trigger, combination front sight, and two rear sights- the flip-up peep and the standard open. the bore diameter is 0.402" and the groove diameter is 0.412" with five grooves and a 20"twist. I think the rifle was probably made around 1879. It is in pretty nice condition with a perfect bore.

I would like to hear from others who shoot this caliber and what loads have been good. I am using a shortened Lyman 410655 that weighs about 360 grains and smokeless powder.

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u356/ten-mile/RBfull.jpg

[EOD3]

That rifle is probably worth it's weight in gold (maybe silver :)). I'd have it looked at by someone qualified to judge it's worth before you do anything else... Just my BAC
:coffee:

[docone31]

A profound example of a firearm!
Eye candy.
One day......

[Boz330]

I don't shoot that caliber but I have several 40-65s. What is the base case for that cartridge? The 360gr boolit might shoot ok, you will just have to try it and see. A 20 twist would probably work better with something down around 300grs though.
Why not shoot BP in it after all that is what it was designed for. Other wise 5744 might be a good powder. 14grs of unigue worked nice with a 350gr slug from my 40-65 but my guess is that case is probably longer. I would approach any smokeless loads with caution considering the age of that gun. It would be a shame to mess it up.

Bob

[wildwilly]

Nice rifle. I own a Cody Ballard in 40-70 Sharps Straight. I load the same boolit (410655) that casts out at 412 gr. wheel weight. You didn't specify whether yours is the bottle-necked case, or straight case. The straight case is made either from Hornady 405 Winchester, or from a stretched 30-40 Krag. I load only the holy black in mine (57gr. GOEX fffg; Walters .030 card wad).

[ten-mile]

Thanks everyone for the posts and PMs so far. I value the comments and cautions from the black powder shooters and I have shot a fair amount of black in the past.
The 40-70 Remington is the same as the 40-70 Sharps BN as far as I can tell. I have a friend with an original Sharps in the 40-70 BN. He has a box of original Remington cartridges that fit in both his rifle and mine. His fired cases are pretty close to those fired from my rifle.
The sources I have found say the Remington usually has a 0.406" groove diameter, but mine is 0.412" measured from a CerroSafe casting. The barrel is marked "40 CTGE" just in front of the fore arm.
I make my cases from Starline 45-90 brass and trim to 2.25". I also "thicken" the rim to get minimum headspace with the die shown below.
http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u356/ten-mile/basedie.jpg
http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u356/ten-mile/casehead.jpg
The first bullets I tried were 320 gr 0.406" from Buffalo Arms. They shot OK with Reloader 7 and a kapok filler. One of my friends has done extensive pressure and velocity testing in a number of the older British calibers including one that was nearly identical to the 40-70 BN and we used his method to find the starting load. Even with the pressure curves in front of me, case fillers make me a little nervous and I decided against them. I needed a larger bullet and a gentleman from Texas sent me some NEI 375 gr bullets he used in his 405. These shot well and accounted for the two deer mentioned previously. Because of the throat dimensions, I need a long bore diameter nose and the Lyman 410655 looked about right. The original 410655 mould casts about 410 grains and was too long for my twist, so I converted it to nose pour and fitted an adjustable plug in the base. the 360 grain version is 1.14" long and shoots as well or better than the 320 gain with the same powder charge.
The load I use operates in the 12-13000 PSI (calculated) range and does not fully obturate the case, but does shoot consistently although a little sooty. One patch with modified Ed's Red and it's clean.
Please forgive my long-winded post, but the details use up words.

[excess650]

If that was my rifle, I would only shoot it with BP.

I've shot up to 400gr bullets in a 1-18" twist 40-50BN out to 500m with excellent accuracy. The 40-70BN should be capable of similar performance.

[ten-mile]

410655 just doesn't shoot, black or smokeless. It shoots very well shortened either one band or two.

[1874Sharps]

Ten-Mile,

May I congratulate you on a wonderful find! That old Remington is one fine rifle. I must agree with several other posters and urge you to give black powder a try. In fact, that is exclusively what I would shoot were that rifle mine. You will never over-pressure that fine antique if you load BP (all other things being equal), but you very well may with smokeless. The pressure curves are very different and even though the average pressure for a given smokeless load may be within specs, the initial pressure spike may not be. Or at least that is the way I understand it (no claims of being an internal ballistics expert here). Loading and shooting BP is a little different than smokeless, but certainly can be mastered. I might add that it is a very rewarding pursuit as well!

[Jon K]

but mine is 0.412" measured from a CerroSafe casting. The barrel is marked "40 CTGE" The original 410655 mould casts about 410 grains and was too long for my twist, so I converted it to nose pour and fitted an adjustable plug in the base. the 360 grain version is 1.14" long and shoots as well or better than the 320 gain with the same powder charge.
The load I use operates in the 12-13000 PSI (calculated) range and does not fully obturate the case, but does shoot consistently although a little sooty.


ten-mile,

When you measured the cerrosafe had it cooled? You know it grows after cooling?
I have a boolit 312 gr/.4115" OD/1.005" OAL/30:1 lead:tin I can send you to try. These shoot great in my Marlin 1881 40-60 circa 1888, .402x.410, 1:20 twist. I shoot 20 gr IMR 4759 or 60 gr Swiss 1 1/2 F.
PM me address to send to, if you would like to try it.

Let me know,
Jon

[det]

My 40-70 is a hepburn. i am using a .410 diameter 370 grain Hoch mold and AA2495 powder with good results.

Det