Sperm Whale oil question

[Catshooter]

I was in a discussion with a friend the other day about Sperm oil. We agreed that it was illegal to sell/buy, but couldn't agree if it was still legal to own. I say yes, he thinks no.

I know someone in our brain trust knows the correct answer. ?



Cat

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

According to this it is illegal to possess it

NOAA 2004-R150
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Connie Barclay
6/8/04

NOAA News Releases 2004
NOAA Home Page
NOAA Public Affairs

$2,000 PENALTY ASSESSED FOR ILLEGAL ATTEMPTED SALE OF SPERM WHALE OIL
OVER INTERNET

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration charged a resident of Lincroft, N.J., with four counts of selling or attempting to sell sperm whale oil over eBay’s online auction site, in violation of the Endangered Species Act. NOAA is an agency of the U.S. Commerce Department.

NOAA’s Office of General Counsel for Enforcement and Litigation assessed a $2,000 penalty against Alan Troshane for the infraction, which took place between March and April 2000. Troshane found the sperm whale oil in the basement of the school where he worked and advertised the whale oil for sale on the Internet-based auction site for $40 per ounce.

During the course of an investigation by NOAA’s Office for Law Enforcement, Troshane admitted the violation and subsequently paid the penalty.

Sperm whales are listed under the Endangered Species Act. The act governs the taking, possession, transportation, sale, purchase, barter, exportation, importation of, and other requirements pertaining to wildlife and plants determined to be threatened or endangered.

NOAA is one of the federal agencies enforcing the regulations under the ESA that make selling or offering to sell endangered species parts or products illegal.

NOAA Fisheries is dedicated to protecting and preserving our nation’s living marine resources and their habitat through scientific research, management and enforcement. NOAA Fisheries provides effective stewardship of these resources for the benefit of the nation, to support coastal communities that depend upon them, and to help to provide safe and healthy seafood to consumers and recreational opportunities for the American public. To learn more about NOAA Fisheries, please visit: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov.

NOAA is dedicated to enhancing economic security and national safety through the prediction and research of weather and climate-related events and providing environmental stewardship of our nation’s coastal and marine resources. For more information about NOAA visit: http://www.noaa.gov.

[crazy mark]

I guess that means people who have Ivory that was bought before the ban are in trouble now. Not the way I have heard it. You can possess but not sell any items you owned before the ban. You better be able to prove where it came from however. The guy was a dufuss for trying to sell it that way.

[Lunk]

There are many items from species on the endangered list that are still legal to poses and even sell with proper documentation and permits. I work on a reservation and eagle feathers are illegal to just go get (you are breaking the law if you even find a bald eagle feather in the forest and pick it up without turning it in). But if there is proper documentation as to the source, age, etc of items they are legal. Ivory is legal to own and sell if you can prove it is antique. Native Americans can get bald eagle feathers from licensed sources with the approval of the federal government (tho I've head the waiting list is close to 20 years long). If he had contacted the feds about what he found there may have been some way he could have profited if they could prove it was older than the ban. I dunno. One of the local tribes goes whaling from time to time. Can't say as I agree with it but they take a dugout canoe and go for it. The thing is with there treaty rights they can't give/sell any parts off the reservation. It's for personal consumption only and I think they didn't much like the taste of the 1 they did get because the haven't tried again in the last couple years that I can remember.

[John Boy]

Commercially available Jojoba and Meadow Foam oils have the same chemical chain formula as sperm oil, not Spermaceti oil from the whale's brain ... which is the creme de creme

[BPCR Bill]

He should have contacted someone in the school where he found the SWO. It sounds like he lifted it from the rightful owners to begin with. The oil was probably used in a biology class or some such, and probably been there for many years.

After a career in the Navy and been around the worlds oceans a time or two, I've seen many species of whales in pretty good numbers. I sighted one Sperm Whale on a cruise in 1979, the western Pacific, and I count myself fortunate. Truly a magnificent animal.

Regards,
Bill

[The Double D]

It's not illegal to possess or sell sperm oil as long as it is possessed and sold in compliance with the Marine Mammal Protection act...http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/laws/mmpa_regs_216.pdf

But you better comply with the provisons of that law first.

Same theory applies to Ivory. Comply first. Old Ivory can be bought and sold and elephants can be hunted and ivory taken in compliance with the law.

Get the permits first!

[KCSO]

Having used a lot of Sperm Oil I can say that it was about the best M/L and all round gun lube I ever used. I still had some as late as 1975 or so. It is interesting that it takes sperm oil a long time to dry up but when it does it makes a yellow almost plastic coating on a gun and when it is removed the metal underneath is almost perfect.

[twotoescharlie]

gotta pint I have for close to fifty years, bought it from DGW when it was legal. guess I been breaking the law all this time. done got so old now that I don't give a damn.

TTC

[The Double D]

No Two Twos you are legal and have been for years....

[runfiverun]

it was used as automatic transmission oil/fluid for years so some of the older cars out there probably have it in them.

[Harry O]

I have about 1/3 of a pint left from a pint I bought legally from Brownell's back when it was legal to buy and sell Sperm Oil. Right after it was outlawed, I read in Brownell's catalog (way, WAY before the internet) that it was legal to own pre-ban oil, but it was illegal to resell it.

I have been using it sparingly since then. It is the best high-pressure "oil" I have ever found. I try other oils first. If they do not work I use the Sperm Oil. That has always worked.

I have not tried that Joba oil, but I have tried several of the transmission and/or steering gear oils suggested and they are not even close. I put oil in "" because Sperm Oil is really a liquid wax. BTW, I have also tried a liquid wax and it is not as good either. The problem is that the liquid wax hardens whereas, the Sperm Oil does not.

It is good stuff, but if you don't have it, you can't get it.

[Catshooter]

Thanks for the info guys. I see, you can posess it, but obviously only under certain circumstances. But posess you can, so I win! (We bet a whole quarter on it!) :)


Cat

[JIMinPHX]

Commercially available Jojoba and Meadow Foam oils have the same chemical chain formula as sperm oil, not Spermaceti oil from the whale's brain ... which is the creme de creme

Actually, I believe that spermaceti oil is sperm oil. The top shelf stuff you are thinking of is called case oil. It comes out of the sonar case in the center of the whale's head. At least that's what the guys in Nantucket used to call it.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It is utterly silly for use, possession, and related laws on sperm oil to be on the books at all. There just isn't any meaningful source in the world anymore and has not been for 50 years.

Want to guess how many well paid ,fat , do-nothing government bureaucrats are hanging around waiting to pontificate on sperm oil do's and don'ts should someone ask about the 1/2 ounce bottle they found in the barn ?

BvT

[fishhawk]

i am keeping what i got! best lube for the flintlocks i think that was ever used! steve k

[sundog]

yeah, and what they do? confiscate it and fine you? then what would THEY do with it. The whale has been dead for 50 years or more, that's longer than some ages on this board. makes a lot of sense to me...:veryconfu

[browntown]

ancient thread I know, but I watched this auction go out of control. I was ready to bid to about $100 or so but was shocked when I saw the end:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221078431649#ht_500wt_1182
46475

[Bad Water Bill]

Many many years ago all of the piano keys were covered in IVORY and you could occasionally find the removed key IVORY for sale to be used as inlay work in jewelry.

I do not know of anyone that still has any left as all of those old craftsmen have long singe passed away. Just wondering how much trouble some of their grand kids might find themselves in.

The government is NOT going to take the time to honestly determine the age of the IVORY, they will confiscate it and the friends,grand kids etc will not be able to prove the IVORY is 100 years old cause the government has all of it and you can not tamper with evidence.

Someone mentioned eagle feathers. Back in 74 I visited my grandfathers home. On his wifes organ sat a fully mounted BALD EAGLE. No he definitely was not a native American but his wife had papers from the government saying he could possess the bird. All of my California relatives have passed on to a better place so there is no way of finding any information about the birds handling after that.

[browntown]

The Oregon dept of fish and wildlife have a stuffed bald eagle in their lobby, rumor is that it was confiscated

[Catshooter]

Very interesting auction browntown. I was under the impression that it was illegal to sell, period, regardless of packaging or age.

$225. That surprises me really. I mean that's alot of money for a little can, but on the other hand it's pretty much unobtainium.


Cat

[Dan4570]

Speaking of Sperm Whale Oil, to my knowledge it is legal own and buy and sell as long as it was in the country prior to the endangered species listing.

I had just posted on the Shiloh forum about an 1870's bullet lube recipe that called for 1 part bees wax and 2 parts Sperm Whale Oil ?
Has any here ever had the chance or knew any one that had the chance to try it as a bullet lube additive? If so how did it work?
The only person I knew that would have likely used it died several years ago. This has spiked my curiosity.

From what I read, I think my lube may be performing very much like the 1870's stuff, however I can't be sure since I can't test the original recipe. ( No, before you ask, I am not giving up my recipe, I am currently marketing it and working on patents)

The the stuff that is supposed to be near identical is very high priced, so I'm not even going to tell my guns about it, they will just have to eat what I have been making. They will never know what they might be missing !

[captaint]

I have a very small bottle of SWO that I legally purchased, in the seventies, from a jewlery store. The bottle is about the size of a stack of, maybe 20 dimes. Really small. Produced by the W. F. Nye co., somewhere in Mass.

[BrentD]

I have made the 1:2 beeswax:sperm oil lube and it is nothing special.

[Echo]

It was used to oil clock gears and pivots - it doesn't creep, like petroleum oils do, so doesn't spread all over the works, just stays right where one puts it. Synthetic transmission fluid samo....

[Dale in Louisiana]

Ed Harris recommends substituting DEXRON III transmission fluid for sperm oil in his "Ed's Red" recipe.

dale in Louisiana

[Certaindeaf]

I'm pretty sure you can "own" it, grasshoppered.. I mean grandfathered.
Pretty recently, here in the US, you can still own natural ivory but just cant sell/trade it, from what I hear.
I inherited a full tiger "cape?" decades ago and sold it to Iteah.. sp? and they asked me a couple questions and then bought it cash.

[MaLar]

I have used this to make lube with and it works better for me than SPG.
I mix it two oil to one BW for winter and one oil to one BW for the rest of the time.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=2073

[Char-Gar]

LAW 101: If it was legal to do or own at the time the act was done, or the item acquired, it is still legal. The Constitution of the United States says there will be no Ex Post Facto laws. This means there can be no laws passed in this country making something illegal now, that it was legal at the time.

If owning whale oil was legal at the time of purchase, it is still legal to own it, if you are the original purchaser. I don't know about whale oil, but there are laws prohibiting the "transfer" of some items to cut down the trade in some things. The current transfer is a new act and it's prohibition is not an Ex Post Facto law.

Factoid: Back in the day, Brownells used to sell pint cans of whale oil for use in gun lubrication and work. I had several.

[Char-Gar]

Ed Harris recommends substituting DEXRON III transmission fluid for sperm oil in his "Ed's Red" recipe.

dale in Louisiana

Yes, the early automatic transmission on cars used whale oil and Dexron III was developed as a substitute. That is where the color red comes from in Ed's Red, which is great stuff.

[Certaindeaf]

Yes, the early automatic transmission on cars used whale oil and Dexron III was developed as a substitute. That is where the color red comes from in Ed's Red, which is great stuff.
I thought sperm whale oil was absolutely clear.

[Char-Gar]

I thought sperm whale oil was absolutely clear.

Sperm oil is clear and Dexron III is red. Dexron III is what is used in Ed's Red that gives it a red color.

[quilbilly]

Believe it or not, there is an actual natural replacement for sperm oil and NASA has used it in the past since, like sperm oil, it doesn't lose its lubrication qualities in extreme cold. I used to sell it as fishing reel and gun oil here locally. It is ratfish liver oil. A ratfish is an ancient relative of sharks. An guy in Seattle was getting the ratfish from local trawlers who usually discarded them as trash fish. He would get them, remove the liver, then leave the livers in the sun on hot tin roofing material while the oil drained off which he then put in plastic bottles. The oil really worked but had an odd smell as you can imagine. The guy long ago passed away and I doubt if anyone else would do this today. This piece of trivia will not do you any good even at NCBS cocktail parties.

[Outpost75]

Ed Harris recommends substituting DEXRON III transmission fluid for sperm oil in his "Ed's Red" recipe....dale in Louisiana


Or LATER versions, Dexron III was the Ford Mercon replacement which dated from the 1980s.

They are up to VI now for model year 2005 and later vehicles, supposedly OK to use in the older vehicles, depending upon which reference you read:

http://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/autotransfluid

https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/dexron-vi-atf

[country gent]

Case oil or Sperm whale oil was also used on measuring tools and other fine fitted equipment. It didnt dry out get gummy or go rancid. If I rmeber it also had a higher working temperature than petrolium based lubes. Alot of Michrometers, calipers, and indicators were lubed with this. It was also the lube of choice for clocks and sewing machines.

[shaper]

Several years ago I owned a big tool called a Pullmax p5. It was old and weighed about 1800 pounds. It was used to form metal. Some of our aircraft carriers and other vessels had one on board. When I put new bearings in the working head I looked at the manual and it called for whale oil. I showed this to our Shell Oil co. petroleum supplier. A couple weeks later 4 quarts of oil showed up on my desk. Don't know who put them there and I didn't ask what was in them. It may be the old stuff or it may be some kind of new stuff. I still have one quart.