Two different guns, same leading?

[Nate1778]

I just got back from the range shooting some of the first bullets I did with LLA.

First up is a G19 with stock barrel, Lee 124g round nose bullet, Aloxed, sized to .356 which is as big as I could go to get it to chamber and Aloxed again. Pushed by 4.3 grains of red dot and Federal match primers. Initial thought on the round was spectacular. About as accurate as I have reloaded out of that gun. Holes in the paper sucked, but I could tell the bullet was traveling right and not key holing. So after each clip I would yank the barrel and give it a look, and every clip of reloads I was getting leading at the last 1" of the barrel, the rest was shiny. Couple of Berry's down the pipe cleaned it right up.

Second GP100 6" barrel. Lee 124 RFN non sized and tumble lubed in LLA. All pushed by 4.4 grains of HP38. Once again, gun shot right on the money and I was pleased, and once again leading the last 1" of the barrel. I did not have this problem with the pan lubed bullets in the same size.

So I am guessing I am doing something wrong with the tumble lube. I cut the bottle with mineral spirits and evenly coated the bullets. Set them on their base on wax paper and let dry. each looked like they had a good even honey coating on them. Anybody have any ideas? should I do another coating, or is there a bigger force at work here?

[462]

Nate,

I don't use LLA, but leading in the last bit of the barrel is an indication that the boolit has run out of lube.

[ScottJ]

OK, new to casting and new to Glock ownership but as I understand it reloads are supposed to be bad in them. Cast stuff especially.

Don't you have to say 10 hail Gastons now or something like that :)

[Nate1778]

For what its worth, from what I have read is cast bullets and Glocks have had a bad wrap for causes unrelated to the lead bullet itself. That said I am going into this eyes wide open, hence yanking the barrel after each clip.

My initial thought is it is running out of lube as well, should a second coating help? I can understand one gun giving me these fits, but two different guns, two different barrel lengths both doing the same thing.

I am initially using 4-6 drops per ~75 bullets

[ScottJ]

I'll be watching how things go for you, Nate. I'm already going to push things by shooting 124gr XTPs over AA #5 in mine.

Been working a deal on a CZ 75B so I can do the casting thing for 9MM too without sweating it.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Well, it does sound like the boolits are running out of lube.

You didn't say how much you're thinning the LLA with mineral spirits. Some people use it as-is. I've seen others post as using it 50/50 with mineral spirits, and some others 2/3 LLA and 1/3 mineral spirits.

Perhaps there's some copper fouling left in the bores. Perhaps your bores need fire lapping. Perhaps your boolits are too soft or too hard.
You've mentioned a Lee 124g boolit, but not exactly what mold you're using, nor what alloy, nor if you're air-cooling, water-dropping, or oven-hardening them.

The more "knowns" you post, the better.

[Nate1778]

Sure, sorry, alloy unknown, bought it with my 10# production pot. I am guessing it is at least 50/50 lead wheel weights, it does harden with water quenching. These are some air cooled bullets though. The molds are both Lee, here are the links respectively.


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=994155

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=145006

[Sprue]

Your boolits are sized too small. Suppose you didn't slug the bores? Boolit size vs barrel fit is key. In regard to the GP100 boolit size vs throat size is key.

The #1 cause of leading is gas cutting due to undersized boolits. Another,you might also try using a slower burning powder and or change lubes and finally, use a known alloy.

Any combination above should cure your troubles, but do start with the proper size boolit first. Another good point mentioned was the prior barrel condition.

Don't get frustrated....

[TexRebel]

sizing,and proper lube are 2 critical items, try lubeing the boolits 2 or 3 times if you use any tumble lube, also do not shoot cast thru any polygon barrel, that can cause a bad prechamber discharge, it you are lucky it will only destroy the gun, get a after market rifled barrel for that Glock, lone wolf and some others are good choices, check blue book, or brownells for price, the lone wolf barrels run around 100 bucks

[fredj338]

SOunds like a combo of sizing, lube & alloy. FWIW, you are only potentially adding to the problem shooting plated after lead & vise versa. That kind of practice is why Glock get a rap for KBing w/ lead bullets. Clean the bbl. well, only shoot lead bullets over lead bullets & clean the bbl often. A harder alloy & maybe a dbl. coat of Alox will help. The GP100 definitely needs a bullet sized larger. The fact your pan lubing works is telling me you are running out of lube.

[Nate1778]

Guys I cannot go any larger than the .360 than my .357 is throwing. The .356 is as big as the Glock will chamber. As a matter of fact the Berry's does not shoot as well as my cast out of the Glock. I need to find away to get the last 1" from leading.

GP100 slugged at .356-.357
Glock 19 slugged at .353-.355

[MtGun44]

Some swear by LLA, some swear at LLA. Try a conventional lube and
see how it works.

Bill

[runfiverun]

add another coat.
two is usually recommended if that helps but don't fix it try a slower powder.

[jhrosier]

Nate,
I had a similar problem with my new Ruger .44 Mag recently.
The boolits were 4-4-92 alloy, water dropped, and seemed as hard as any I've ever used.
They were well coated with LLA and used as cast at about .4305 diameter.
The barrel leading was light at the breech and very heavy at the muzzle and accuracy was about 5" at 25 yards from a rest. The leading was, BTW, nearly all on top of the lands, with none to very little in the grooves???
I changed the powder charge to a full case of trailboss, which dropped the velocity to around 900fps and everything got magically better.
The groups went to 2" or less at 25 yards and the boollits cleaned the leading from the barrel and left it cleaner than when I started.
After 600 rounds, without cleaning, the barrel is almost as clean as when I bought the gun new.
I will not use the Lee bevel based, unchecked tumble lube boolits for full power loads the next time, but this time I salvaged a huge pile of boolits and had a couple of weeks of fun shooting to boot.
It seems that not every gun shoots cast boolits well and not every boolit/lube/load combination works well.
I've had pretty good, sometimes remarkably good, results with most of my cast boolit loads in a couple of dozen different guns and calibers for the last couple of years, so I'm willing to give up on the odd one if it doesn't come around after a while.
I have found that Lars 2500+ and Carbauba Red lubes have worked well for me in nearly every case, while LLA has had a few problems. Mind you, I have had pretty good results with LLA on conventional grooved boolits in many rifles.

Jack

[mooman76]

Try either adding a second coat or don't thin the LLA as much. Should do it if your other lube worked.

[Nate1778]

Thanks guys, there was no sign of leading at the breech, the leading that was happening was in the grooves, very little on the lands.

LLA is cut with mineral spirits buy topping off the existing bottle leaving about a 1/2" of head space.

I will cast some more this evening and pan lube the 9mm and double coat the bullets that currently Aloxed, give it another whirl.

[918v]

The .356 is as big as the Glock will chamber.

I keep telling people Glock 9mm chambers are some of the tightest in the industry, but they don't believe me.

I agree with the others. Don't thin the alox.

[O.S.O.K.]

Nate, I have a G20SF and bought a storm lake barrel just so I could shoot cast boolits from it. You might consider that if you want to shoot mostly cast from your G19. Standard length stainless versions run about $120.

Now, to the results that you're seeing....

1) as already stated, leading at the muzzle end indicates lack of enough lube
2) no leading at the breach end indicates that sizing is not the problem
3) you are thinning the lube with ms....
4) you do not see this with conventional lube

Those are the facts.

I agree with using straight-from-the-bottle LLA prior to sizing the boolits and then tumble them again after sizing and setting out on their bases to dry overnight or longer before loading.

I don't see anything "wrong" with what you are doing other than using the mineral spirits.... and not that that is "wrong" - it just may be thinning the LLA too much and perhaps more coats are needed...

Nothing you are saying points to alloy issues either.

I use straight LLA before and after sizing and get zero leading from autoloaders, revolvers, pistol caliber carbines and rifles, plain base (OK - I have gotten leading with plain based boolits but I pushed them too fast!) or gas checks...

Yes, the LLA is sticky but that is of no concern to me as it works so dang well.

[Nate1778]

Updated:

Went to the range with several different combination's and the G19.

Double coat uncut LLA = Fail, still leading at the end of the barrel

Two coats cut LLA and one coat uncut LLA = Fail leading at the end of barrel

Pan lubed and sized = Fail better but still some minor leading at the end of barrel

Pan lubed sized and one coat LLA = Fail about the same as the Pan lubed only above but less then the top two.



Guess my next move is to slow the powder down a bit. I have a bit of Unique left and some #7. I will try to find some data on these two. Should I slow the bullet down, or just the powder. The leading is slight still and only at the last 1" of the barrel. Not significant, but my Berry's don't lead at all.

[JIMinPHX]

Under size boolits lead near the chamber. Lead near the muzzle is either a lube problem, a bore condition problem, or a boolit starting to fall apart at the stern end. At least, that's been my experience. Looking at a recovered boolit would shed light on the last possibility that I listed.

Since you are using a boolit that was not designed for tumble lube, but rather one that has a traditional lube groove (based on looking at the Midway links posted) then you need to make sure that the lube groove is FULL of lube when the lube dries. You might also want to try using the pan lube & cookie cutter method with a traditional stick lube to see if a different lube gives different results.

Small amounts of brass fouling in the barrel would be enough to cause the problems that you describe. Please be sure that you are cleaning the entire barrel to the point where a patch full of solvent sitting in the problem area overnight does not get a blue or green tinge of color on it.

Please look for rough barrel finish in the problem area.

Please tell us where the lead builds up. Is it in grooves? On poly corners? On lands? On poly flats?

You might want to slug your barrel from the muzzle end & only go in as far as where the leading starts & then compare that groove dimension to the groove dimension near the chamber. If your groove diameter is loose at the muzzle end, then she will always lead & there may be nothing that you can do about it except use gas checks or a softer alloy that will bump up more easily at the end.

As you have already stated, a softer powder charge is also worth trying. How fast were those things going anyway?

[Nate1778]

I would guess they are moving in the 1100ft/sec area. Last evening I scrubbed the barrel til the patches ran clean. Looking with the unintelligent eye, the barrel looks smooth through and through. If I had to best describe the leading, and this once again is coming from someone whom is new, it looks like the bullet is skidding over the lands at the last moment. Almost like you can see a strait line of lead that comes strait out of the barrel and not rolling with the grooves, although there is some of that as well. I never thought about slugging half the barrel, I may give that a shot and see if there is a difference. What I thought though was a lube problem I am now starting to doubt, as I would have thought at least a significant difference between the above test, and there really wasn't.

[Edubya]

I'll share my experience and you can see if it might be applicable to your situation.
I was given a pound of AA#5.
I loaded up a dozen rounds of 124 gr bullets, sized .356 and lubed with Lars Carnuba Red, with 5.5 AA#5 (minimum is 5.4-max 6.0) and C.O.L of 1.12. I got bad leading. I cleaned and polished the XD-9 barrel with Semi-Chrome polish. I loaded the next dozen with 5.3 gr AA-5. I got leading and failure to eject.
I was loading them to this length as a trial of what I read from a poster hear on this site, "load to the longest length that your gun and bullet will allow."
I came back and cleaned the barrel one more time, loaded another dozen to the 1.095 C.O.L. that is called for by Accurate Powders for the 124RNL bullet. The leading is all but eliminated!
These bullets tested @13BHN.
I figure that the 1.095 gives it more grip and allows for better obturation, therefore eliminates the leading.
Good Luck
EW

[Edubya]

I just had another thought: You might be crimping them so tightly that they are deformed on the base. Pull a couple and make sure that they are still measuring at least .3545
EW

[HeavyMetal]

Prevoius suggestion about checking crimp should be explored but your really running out of lube.

You posted you pan lubed and then dipped with LLA, you did not mention what the pan lube was and I think you continued with Alox?

Alox, like LLA, will be sworn at, and for, by many. Because the 9mm is a very intense round pressure wise I switched tio the lube I use with the magnum rounds and was very happy.

Carenuba red, blue angel, Zambini Red, all are a good starting place.

Leading at the end of the barrel is always a lube failure period!

[38-55]

Nate1778,
I've fought with 9 mike mikes for years.. Try a slower powder like 4.0-4.5 of unique.. Anymore I use spg lube and makemine10mm's most excellent slippery135 grain boolit.. Keep sizing to .356 and play with powder.. I, too did all the playing around with lubes and it did not seem to matter one wit.
As for the six shooter.. forget about the throat and measure the front of the cylinder, that's the most critical dimension I've found.. Match that or go over .001 and you will be golden.. My rugers vary in this department so I just go with the largest dimension... FWIW
Stay safe
Calvin

[exile]

I freely admit I don't know much about this issue, but you mentioned Federal match primers. Could it be a primer issue as well? Are match primers that much different than others? I don't know, but thought I would ask, maybe learn something.

exile

[Nate1778]

The lube I am using is Darrs lube with the oil additive, not that it makes a huge difference. I can lighten up on the crimp but have set it pretty light as it is. I am going to load up 20 or so of the pan lubed only and pan lubed with a coating of LLA. Se how that does. I will also pull one and see what size its at. I have several different brands of primers as well. As far as I know the match primer strength wise is the same as the standard, the consistency is supposed to be better and the specs are tighter. I do know the Federals are the most potent on the market, wandering if maybe its pushing the alloy higher than 1200ft/sec.

[JIMinPHX]

I just looked up loading data for red dot in a 9mm in a Speer #13 manual. They say 3.3-3.6 grains under a 125gr LRN should give 888-1004fps. I think that your charge of 4.3gr may be too hot.

[303Guy]

Interesting thread. I don't shoot handguns anymore but can't help wondering ow much of this is applicable to rifle. Just an observation - two guns, same alloy, lube failure. That sounds like an alloy issue, no? (Meaning that the alloy requires more or different lube under the conditions?)

[JIMinPHX]

It could be the alloy. I was leaning away from that because he's only having trouble at the end of the barrel, but that doesn't completely rule out the possibility.

[303Guy]

True. Maybe it's an alloy/lube/powder_type combo. I'd be interested in hearing the solution. (Nothing seems simple in our sport - all part of the fun!)