Paper patching with copper foil

[McLintock]

I had a table at a gun show in Prescott Valley, Az this past weekend and a fellow that calls himself "Bulletsmith" was at the table adjacent to mine. He was informing me of some of the products he does and one seemed a fit for this area on the forum. He paperpatches bullets with copper foil, .0010" thick, and in .45 Cal. They've been used in Alaska for black powder only hunts and the user was accused of using copper jacketed bullets. The gameys dug a bullet out of a carcass, examined it and declared it legal, as it was virtually the same as a paper patched bullet. I don't paper patch, don't intend to, but thought it was worthy of a thread here as someone might be interested. Here's a couple of pics of the finished product, the other bullet is a jacketed one that he makes a Hydra Shok out of for .45 calibers.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/2593806/372145560.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/2593806/372145596.jpg
He said that he swages the copper foil onto the core with a bullet swager of some sort, so he gets that crisp bottom fold. I would think that it would help protect the base more than paper, but that's only conjecture. Just passing along something I'd never seen before, don't flame the messenger. Anyone wants to talk with him, I've got his T-#.
McLintock

[peter nap]

That's darn interesting Mclintock!
Any idea how many turns (I'm assuming 3) and where one finds copper foil.

[1874Sharps]

Mac,

Most interesting! You know, originally when metal jackets started being manufactured and sold they were called "metal patched" bullets. Looks like that is exactly what this guy has done.

[Blammer]

wonder if the Wrigley's chewing gum wrapper would work too? LOL

just kidding, very intersting!

[peter nap]

Hmmmm..

http://basiccopper.com/1milcopperfoil.html

[Dframe]

Fasinating concept. I don't see any reason it wouldnt work just fine.

[303Guy]

Interesting! If it works, why not! BUT, it does defeat the objective of 'paper patching' in that it is putting metal against the bore. Paper patching is putting a kind of 'lubricating substance' between boolit and bore. (I suppose one could call copper a lubricating material too). And then this fellow is selling them. That means the buyer is missing out on the fun of 'rolling his own'.:mrgreen:

[montana_charlie]

If you were Quigley, and you were running around Australia looking for 'dingos' to shoot with paper patched bullets...you could switch to 'greasers' if that's all you could find to reload with.

But if your experimental rifle and experimental ammunition was fitted out to use copper patches...you would have to find your way to Marsten's place so you could borrow his Hoppes #9 to solve out the copper fouling before shooting those greasers.

Probably miss out on bagging your limit of dingos...
CM

[pdawg_shooter]

No reason it wouldnt work. My question is why? Paper works great and copper has to be harder to work with. Looks to me like he reinvented the wheel.

[45 2.1]

There is nothing much new on the face of the Earth, or under or above it either. Nothing new here on this thread. Some original metallic cartridges were rolled copper also.

[McLintock]

Don't think I did the thickness of the copper foil right, it's ten thousanths of an inch, which should be .010", right?
McLintock

[leftiye]

Thas really thick! How about .001" or .005" maybe instead ( thinnest that wouldn't cut when engraved)?

[RMulhern]

There's ALWAYS.....someone trying to reinvent the wheel!

[HWooldridge]

Don't think I did the thickness of the copper foil right, it's ten thousanths of an inch, which should be .010", right?
McLintock

I think you were correct at a decimal of .001, which is one thousandth. Ten thousandths (.010) is likely much too thick.

[RMulhern]

:groner::killingpc[smilie=b:

[leftiye]

I thimk the biggest possible problem with foil would be whether or not it separated from the boolit or not. Or whether it was consistent in this - would affect accuracy badly if it weren't.

[montana_charlie]

If I thought a copper foil 'patch' was a good idea, this is how I would do it...

- Find (or make) some thin-walled copper tubing, and cut lengths that correspond to your bullet, and will leave the nose exposed.
- Taper one end of the tube like the crimp on a case neck.
- Slip the tube into the bullet mould, and wait a moment till it heats up.
- Pour the alloy, filling the 'copper lined' mould cavity, then cut the sprue.

The 'crimp' located at the base of the nose will lock the lead and copper together.
The copper will ride the bullet to the target.
You have a homemade jacketed bullet without buying a swaging press.

Every once in a while I think about suggesting a sub-forum be created for 'alternatives' to paper patching.
It would hold discussions on teflon tape, corn shucks, aluminum foil, PVC tubing, cloth, paper mache, and buckskin made from earthworm hide.

But, when the notion gets strong, I get to thinking we have heard all of the 'side trails' mentioned, and the sub-forum is not really necessary...then something like this one pops up.

CM

[McLintock]

He definitely said ten thousanths foil and that it was very important which way you wrapped the foil in order that it didn't unwind in flight. I imagine that you would need to know whether you had a right hand or left hand twist barrel. I think most are right hand twist, but not too sure on that, so don't quote me.
McLintock

[Frank46]

Has anyone ever tried the copper foil with the glue on one side? Supposed to be for doing stained glass windows. I gave this some though and actually called a few places up. Always the same question "what are you going to do with it?" my answer was "wrap up lead bullets and shoot them. Things got kinda quiet on one call. The person I spoke with was curious as to how this was done. So I explained wrap up the part of the bullet where the bullet goes in the case. And then shoot them. and hopefully manage to save a few to see how the foil stood up to the firing. Simple enough idea right?. One place just hung up after I finished my story. Guess they thought that they were dealinh with somecrackpot and didn't wanna get involved.
Get the dead soft stuff and put a little bead of solder to keep the coil closed, Frank

[montana_charlie]

Guess they thought that they were dealinh with somecrackpot and didn't wanna get involved.
I'll not comment on what they may have been thinking...but an innocuous answer to the question might have been, "I plan to use it, instead of electrolytic copper plating, to improve the appearance of cast metal objects."

[bcp477]

Some numbers to think about..... as regards this copper foil idea. Based on the website link posted by Peter Nap (above)......

Buying the 1 mil (0.001" thick) copper foil in 18" x 20 ft rolls (the cheapest way to get it listed on the website) ....... works out to about 1.9 CENTS per sq. inch. This does NOT include shipping costs. So, very roughly speaking, one could patch an 8mm bullet (what I shoot, as an example).....for somewhere between 1 cent and 3 cents.....not figuring WASTE.


Paper (the simple lined notebook paper I use) for example.....in comparison, works out to cost roughly 0.19 CENTS per sq. inch (1 / 10 as much)..... not figuring sales tax (which is 7 % here). So, I can patch one of my bullets for approximately 0.3 CENTS (3 / 10 of one cent). I measured the area of my patches....so this DOES figure waste.

So, summarizing the monetary costs...... the copper foil runs roughly 1 /3 of the cost to about the same as 1 PRIMER....PER bullet.....whereas one can patch AT LEAST 6 bullets with paper, for the SAME money.

Environmental factors are not an issue, in my estimation, because the copper would eventually turn to copper oxide ....which is the same as copper ore (and the paper will biodegrade....just as wood rots). The issues related to how easy or diffcult it would be to use 0.001" thick copper foil are unknowns.... but I'd have to speculate that it would be more difficult to patch a bullet without tearing than it is with paper (0.001" foil is THIN !). Also, one would not have any of the inherent advantages as with paper, in terms of the stretching and shrinkage of moistened paper patches..... so the copper foil patches would need to be wrapped quite tightly, in order to get the "fit" to the bullet needed. I am certain that some adhesive WOULD be needed, to seal the patch end/ edge....and that is another issue.

All in all...... I think I'll let someone ELSE try this idea. I'm not enthused..... especially since paper works so well for me (and I can get what I need at any grocery, drug or office supply store....heck, almost anywhere).

[Zeek]

1,2,3,4,5 characters (min. message length), plus me makes six.
Zeek