PP Bullet with no grooves?

[peter nap]

I can't find a picture of a PP bullet but it seems to me that a dedicated bullet would have no lube grooves.

God help me, I thought I'd try my hand at making a mold. Talk about starting a project with no clue.

I have a Lee .452 SWC that I don't care for and thought I'd just open it up to .457 (to allow three thousands PP) and profile a cutter for the nose I want..Then cut the nose deeper to bring the weight up to about 450 grains.

How off base is that?

[leftiye]

Not necessarily. There are designs with a few to many small grooves. As far as I've heard they work fine. Roughness of the mold or knurling the boolit helps the paper to hold to the boolit - as do grooves probly. Many many have shot GG boolits paperpatched, and it works fine. The BPCR crowd likes to use smooth boolits, but they are shooting extreme ranges, and due to the competition thang they are showing variations (in ballistic coefficient) that are very small as being significant.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have had in the past 6 different smooth sided molds for paper patching and have traded, or sold them all off. I have much better luck using standard molds, sizing to BORE diameter +.001/.0015, patching to GROOVE diameter +, lubing and sizing the patch to +.001/.003 and loading. I used 16# paper since the thinner stuff dont stand up to feeding from a magazine or survive the trip down the bore as well.

[1874Sharps]

Peter,

I have a several dedicated paper patch molds in both 45 rifle and 30 caliber. Some are stock molds but most are custom made by Lee. I have had good luck with the smooth-sided bullets, but have recently loaded up some 303 Brit rounds according to Pdawg's method as described in other places. I have yet to make it to the range and have unfortunately been a bit stoved up but hope to get out and try them soon.

Pdawg,

I have a question for you about your method: How far up toward the nose do you place the patch generally? Do you go past the bullet's normal bearing surface?

[303Guy]

peter nap, I make all my own molds. Because of that they are all smooth sided. I had to work at getting the paper to come off at the muzzle! My boolits are tapered to kinda match the throat. I started out with a gas checked, smooth sided boolit which I dipped lube in 'waxy-lube' and these seemed to shoot pretty well at around 1900fps using Varget/AR2208. There seems to be many variables and different things seem to work for different folks. You gotta just try all the tricks it seems.:mrgreen: I would guess that there are several combinations that will work for each gun.

Here is a patch the clearly stayed on through its trip in the barrel.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-116F.jpg
And it is a rough, rust damaged barrel!

This one was fired through a good barrel. Not very fast, but fast enough to 'lose' the patch at the muzzle.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-150F.jpg

With smooth sided boolits, I think one has to roll 'em on wet so they pull real tight when they dry. (You can't see the surface imperfections untill after posting the pic! But some are likely to be caused by sand in the catch medium).

(I should mention that none of my tests involve successful range results! They are all 'test tube' tests).

[longbow]

I make my own simple push out moulds which work just fine.

I mentioned in another post that I thought I had invented something until I saw the old Ideal mould ~ image attached.

I make mine from 1 1/2" round bar and usually make a "D" reamer of correct size for the boolit shank.

These are easy to make and work well.

Longbow

[peter nap]

I make my own simple push out moulds which work just fine.

I mentioned in another post that I thought I had invented something until I saw the old Ideal mould ~ image attached.

I make mine from 1 1/2" round bar and usually make a "D" reamer of correct size for the boolit shank.

These are easy to make and work well.

Longbow


Can you give me a little more detail about your molds Longbow.
I looked at some of your other posts about them and I am impressed..:drinks:

From the picture it looks like you drill the bar for the shank size, then counterbore it for different nose shapes...:confused:

[303Guy]

Mmmm.... I tried making my first 'longbow' mold.[smilie=1: It works OK but it was for my 25 and at those sizes I didn't get the nose bit quite the way I wanted it.:mrgreen: But I can attest that the principle works just fine!:drinks: I can adjust my boolit from 100grs to 121grs (maybe even more but 121grs seems long enough). I too used the 'bore rider' principle so as to be able to vary boolit weight without interfering with seating depth.:Fire:

[montana_charlie]

I can't find a picture of a PP bullet but it seems to me that a dedicated bullet would have no lube grooves.
Here is a picture to look at.
It is a .45 caliber Money Bullet, naked and clothed, from a dedicated paper patch mould.
It is cast at .452" (.002" over bore) then wrapped to groove diameter...no sizing, no lubing, no messing around. I don't even bother to wet the patches before wrapping, anymore.

The red on the patch is ink from my printer, where the patches are drawn,
26 to the page.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1206

This is the mould, cut by Rick Kalynuik, to cast it.
When I have everything working just right, you don't even need to open the mould to dump the bullet. Just open the sprue plate and invert the mould.
The bullet slides out like it was greased.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=423

This is a diagram of the original design, and I simply deleted the grease grooves to get a smooth shape. The mould was spec'ed to cast at .450", but it came out throwing .452" with 16-1 alloy.
That actually works better for the paper I have on hand.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=462

CM

[303Guy]

Beautiful! Now for the range results.[smilie=1: :mrgreen:
How do you keep the paper in place when wrapping dry?

So that's a Money Boolit!

[montana_charlie]

How do you keep the paper in place when rolling dry?
I keep plenty of tension on the paper while rolling, and I don't have to worry about the paper stretching since it isn't wet.
Once rolled, I twirl the bullet with my right hand fingers on the nose (not on the paper) while fingers on the other hand smooth the paper around the bullet, encouraging it to tighten even more.
When the ends of the patch line up with no gap amd no overlap, the paper is tight enough.

Then, I start twirling with the base corner against my left thumb and forefinger while holding the bullet by the patch (not the nose). That forms the fold over the base.
I keep on twirling as my left forefinger slides over the nose, and my thumb slips around so it's flat on the base.
This flattens the base fold, and good tension has been kept on the paper the whole time, so it is real tight to the bullet.

I time my last twirl so I can lift the bullet away with my thumb holding the seam together, and twirl/slip the patched bullet into a waiting case...continuing the twirl until the base is seated against the over-powder wad.

But, that bullet in the picture was wrapped a couple of days ago to test a new patch width...and it has stood up to a lot of handling without coming apart, even though it's never seen water.

Telling how to do this, or reading about it, could make a guy dizzy with all the twirling. But, it's easier to do than it is to describe it.
CM

[longbow]

Peter:

Here is an example I put together for one of the other fellows.

It shows the basic type of mould construction. This one has a full diameter sliding nose form so allows for adjustable weight and easily changeable nose shape

If you want more detail send me your e-mail address and I will send you some photos and more detailed drawing.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks for the description montana_charlie. I could follow as I can relate to it - I have done much the same and the paper gets real tight! I just haven't tested any.:roll:

Right, I gave it a try. Amazing how tight one can wrap that paper! I closed about a 2mm gap! (5/64")

[pdawg_shooter]

Peter,

I have a several dedicated paper patch molds in both 45 rifle and 30 caliber. Some are stock molds but most are custom made by Lee. I have had good luck with the smooth-sided bullets, but have recently loaded up some 303 Brit rounds according to Pdawg's method as described in other places. I have yet to make it to the range and have unfortunately been a bit stoved up but hope to get out and try them soon.

Pdawg,

I have a question for you about your method: How far up toward the nose do you place the patch generally? Do you go past the bullet's normal bearing surface?

I run my patches far enough up so the diameter of the patch at the nose is less than BORE diameter, always. This is usually enough, but in some rifles I have to go a bit further to get the patch engraved in the rifling.

[docone31]

I try to run my patches so the front of the patch will enter the rifleing will trap the paper. I figuire, with all the activity involved in the firing, this prevents the patch from rolling back.
If it does, it is still being cut by the rifleing.
When my patches dry, the nose of the patch shrinks down to the lead quite firmly. This provides a smaller diameter, making it hard for the boolitt to shed the paper on its way.

[1874Sharps]

CM,

Do I read the mechanical drawing correctly that this boolit's sides are tapered (it is a little hard for me to see it)? If so, how many thousandths?

Longbow,

Most curious mold! I know what you mean about thinking you have invented something only to discover it has been made in the past, or even distant past.


PS -- CM,
Very interesting way of laying out your patches and applying them. I have never tried wrapping the patch dry. As always you fellows give me something to think about and try!

[montana_charlie]

CM,
Do I read the mechanical drawing correctly that this boolit's sides are tapered (it is a little hard for me to see it)? If so, how many thousandths?
Yes, the first three driving bands are undersized by differing amounts....452", .454", and .456".
The original 'Money Bullet' was intended for shooting 1000 yards with 45/70 rifles.

(And, it wasn't called the Money Bullet to begin with...it's just a nickname that stuck permanently. Now, the Money Nose can be slapped onto any 'bullet body' to get the aerodynamics of that shape. It closely resembles the Metford bullet, I believe.)

So anyway, the bands were 'tapered' (just like those in the drawing) to let the bullet to seat out further into the leade, and allow more powder in the charge. The original started out with 'small' grooves (called mini-grooves) to cut down on drag, and then morphed into the micro-mini-groove you see in the drawing.
The "Wasserberger Mile" bullet is longer than the original Money Bullet to increase the total mass...for shooting at one mile.

For PP, I just took the .450" diameter at the back of the ogive, and carried it straight to the base...deleting the grease grooves.

CM

[303Guy]

I have tried montana_charlie's method a few times now. It is more effort but the process is simpler and more robust. The tail folds or twists without tearing and the patch can withstand as much handling and working as is required to make the ends meet. The paper stays smooth. AND, the patch takes the shape of the casting, actually fitting over the ogive! I'm gonna be trying this method on the range.:Fire:

[303Guy]

Hah! It works on a two-diameter boolit too!:drinks:

And if the end happens to overlap, it is simple enough to trim off the overlap with a sharp knife! There is no unwrapping - this patch is as robust as any other I have tried. The method might be the best for lined paper, the patch surface is more consistant - it stays smooth.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DryPatch.jpg

[1874Sharps]

CM,

I just noticed that you wrap so that the acute, not obtuse angle of the patch is at the nose end. Do you have any trouble with the terminal end tending to poke up and not stay down tightly to the paper underneath? You do not mention any use of adhesive. This is your BP bullet, right?

[montana_charlie]

CM,

I just noticed that you wrap so that the acute, not obtuse angle of the patch is at the nose end. Do you have any trouble with the terminal end tending to poke up and not stay down tightly to the paper underneath? You do not mention any use of adhesive. This is your BP bullet, right?
Yes, it is for use with BP.
You are being fooled by the red ink, 1874, the obtuse angle IS at the ogive.
The red you see is actually printed on the other side of the paper you are looking at. The paper is so transparent, it just looks like the ink is on the top surface.

It's a 9-pound onionskin at .0019" thick...when it hasn't been wet. When I was wetting the patches, and stretching them, they came out too thin to match my bore dimensions. That's the only reason I tried dry wrapping...and found out I like it better.

CM

EDIT - to correct the paper thickness.
CM

[Red River Rick]

It's a 9-pound onionskin at .019" thick...when it hasn't been wet.
CM



MC:

I think your missing a "zero" in that equation. It's either behind the nine, or in front of the other "zero".

RRR

[montana_charlie]

MC:

I think your missing a "zero" in that equation. It's either behind the nine, or in front of the other "zero".

RRR
Good catch, Rick. .019" would be pretty thick paper...huh?
I edited the post to reflect the correct thickness.

[Digital Dan]

.50 cal, 800 grains, recently shot a 19+" string for 20 shots at 200 yards in a 10-15 mph quartering wind.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3458.jpg

Second from left is a .422" 300 gr that shoots sub MOA to 100 yards. Far right is a .56 Caliber, 997 grain that shot the target below a few months back in horrid wind conditions at 200 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3462.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3090.jpg

[Red River Rick]

Dan:

Which side of the target are you shooting from? The holes in this target look like there coming from back to front? Some new way of shooting?

RRR

[montana_charlie]

I run my patches far enough up so the diameter of the patch at the nose is less than BORE diameter, always. This is usually enough, but in some rifles I have to go a bit further to get the patch engraved in the rifling.
I fired some bullets into a snowbank last spring which showed I was not taking the paper far enough forward to prevent engraving in bare lead.

So, I increased the width of the patch from .930" to one and one sixteenth inches.
Here some patch parts recovered from firing those 'wide patches'.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1211

As you can see, I did not get the desired 'confetti effect', but the paper seemed to come off of the bullet well...judging by where I found it.

The pieces are not from the same patch. Both are portions that contain the full width of a patch, from the ogive down to include the fold under the base.

The left piece is (I'm pretty sure) from an outside wrap, which was in contact with the bore, and the right piece was an inner wrap. The surface you're looking at was in contact with the bullet.

The outer wrap (on the left) doesn't show it well, but the paper is not quite cut all the way to the front end of the patch. It missed getting there by just enough that there was sufficient strength to prevent the paper from 'confetti-ing'.

The piece on the right clearly shows that the inner wrap (which is 4 thousandths smaller in diameter) missed being cut to the front edge by at least a sixteenth of an inch. I found a lot of these inner wraps, and they were all similarly 'intact'.

This is from wrapping too far forward beyond the ogive of the bullet.

I have dropped my patch width to a flat one inch to see how that works...

CM

[Digital Dan]

Dan:

Which side of the target are you shooting from? The holes in this target look like there coming from back to front? Some new way of shooting?

RRR

Another way to use a regulation target. Tack it up face to the backer and put a small dot or X on the backside of the target where the X is located. Pinhole will mark it for reference...if needed. Works better for some sight system or methods....or lighting conditions.

[303Guy]

montana_charlie, very interesting pic. The patch on the right seems to have had the outer wrap 'disintegrate' but stay in place down the barrel. So those shoot OK even though the inner wrap didn't fragment? The patch on the right does look like the outer wrap but for that strange pattern where it looks like the wrap was actually an inner wrap? Could that be?

[Red River Rick]

Dan:

Thanks for the explanation.

One question, if I may ask. The two "Dual Diameter" bullets shown in your pic, could you shed some more light on those two, performance wise? I have swaging dies for making .406 & .411 "J" bullets for the old some of the old .40 cals, just wondering.

All the bullets in your line-up appear to "Swaged", yes, no?

RRR

[Digital Dan]

Yes and no. Some are swagged, some cast then swagged. In the end they all get the treatment, so mostly, yes.

3rd from left is something picked up along the way, a two piece with alloyed base and pure lead nose. The .50 cal is pure lead on the bottom and of slightly larger diameter in that section. Alloyed nose bore rider in front, both components swagged together with pound dies. If you look closely at the pictures you can see the difference in diameter. This is the one that did the ~19" 20 shot string @ 200 yards, so I'd say performance is OK. Chase patched and fired from a vintage slug gun. The owner is a not too long ago world champ with slug guns by the way, not me. Very depressing that.:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3202.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN3175.jpg

The belted picket bullets in the line up range up to about .56 caliber and are of the Lewis style...swagged