Newbie question about gas checks.

[ScottJ]

Can you gas check a boolit not originally designed for it?

Lee makes a 125gr for .38/357 but it's not a GC design.

I'd really like to try it over the 19.5gr of 296 I use for jacketed stuff but figure that's just a tad too hot for plain base.

[44man]

Can you gas check a boolit not originally designed for it?

Lee makes a 125gr for .38/357 but it's not a GC design.

I'd really like to try it over the 19.5gr of 296 I use for jacketed stuff but figure that's just a tad too hot for plain base.
First answer is NO.
Second is that you are over max with 19.5 gr already for jacketed so you need to work loads for cast. Drop to minimum and work up.
Make the boolit hard and you do not need a gas check. I have shot PB to 1800 fps in a 45-70 revolver, but they shoot best at a little over 1600 fps. Look for the accuracy point and get away from as fast as you can go.
As you soften boolits, you need a gas check more and more until you even exceed it's grip on the rifling. That is what a gas check is for, to stop the skid at the base. Some wads can still seal behind a boolit even when it has skidded too much and opened gas channels at the rifling marks and guys have used upside down gas checks, etc. At no time should a gas check or wad be separate from the boolit base and fall down to the powder. This is a tricky solution to a problem solved with hard boolits.

[ScottJ]

Actually, according to the online data center for 296 I'm below start load.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Cartridge: 357 Magnum
Load Type: Pistol
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

Starting Loads
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
125 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.590" 21.0 1881 38,400 CUP

Maximum Loads
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
125 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.590" 22.0 1966 41,400 CUP

I cross-checked that with a few other manuals too. Some of those put me near max but none over.

I was aiming to duplicate the 125gr SJHP load from Remington and this seems to be pretty close. No hard extraction at all out of my SP101.

[HammerMTB]

Can you gas check a boolit not originally designed for it?

Lee makes a 125gr for .38/357 but it's not a GC design.

I'd really like to try it over the 19.5gr of 296 I use for jacketed stuff but figure that's just a tad too hot for plain base.



I can't see how to practically GC a non-GC boolit. I have done a lot of things that weren't practical, so I can see where it could be done, but the investment in time and labor would be more than buying another mold.
If you are convinced you know what you want, there are vendors that will make you any boolit mold you want to spec.

[mroliver77]

Pat Marlin of this site is making a gas check maker to fit aluminum can metal gas checks on PLAIN base boolits. This was done some years back by Paco Kelley and others with good results.
Jay

[oleycow]

First answer is NO.
Make the boolit hard and you do not need a gas check. I have shot PB to 1800 fps in a 45-70 revolver, but they shoot best at a little over 1600 fps. Look for the accuracy point and get away from as fast as you can go.
As you soften boolits, you need a gas check more and more until you even exceed it's grip on the rifling. That is what a gas check is for, to stop the skid at the base. Some wads can still seal behind a boolit even when it has skidded too much and opened gas channels at the rifling marks and guys have used upside down gas checks, etc.

Can a boolit be too hard?

I am shooting the .454 casull, so far I have loaded lead only in the Colt brass because of concerns with leading and bullet strength, so i am only pushing them at about 800 - 900 fps.

How much solder should a guy add to per pound of wheel weight lead in the pot to make boolits "hard" enough for velocities of 1600 fps or so.

I am currently using 250 gr rn .452 but have been looking at getting a 300 gr mold with the Gas check option.

[sqlbullet]

Can a boolit be too hard?

Easily.

Read here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm) and here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm).

Properly fit and lubed wheel weight bullets will probably handle 1400-1500 fps. They may be a little on the soft side, especially with a high pressure round. Water dropped WW should be fine for about any load in 454, again, if the fit and lube are correct.

I fell into the "can't be too hard" trap when I started casting. Had some leading issues in my 10mm loads. A softer alloy fixed up the problem. My fit wasn't great (barrel slugs .401 instead of .400). The softer bullets deform just a bit and seal the bore.

Solder isn't really going to improve the hardness of WW that much. If you want harder, you will need some form of heat treatment (quench from mold, or oven heat then quench), or you will need to boost the antimony content by adding linotype, monotype or foundry type.

Wheel weight will benefit from the tin in the solder, allowing complete fill out at lower casting temps. Clip on WW are about .5% tin, and ideally you want 2%. That would be about 5 oz of 60/40 to 10lbs of WW. To make it easy I would do .5lbs solder to 9.5lbs of ww. You can see a table of the alloys here (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm).

[oleycow]

Easily.

Read here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm) and here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm).

Properly fit and lubed wheel weight bullets will probably handle 1400-1500 fps. They may be a little on the soft side, especially with a high pressure round. Water dropped WW should be fine for about any load in 454, again, if the fit and lube are correct.

I fell into the "can't be too hard" trap when I started casting. Had some leading issues in my 10mm loads. A softer alloy fixed up the problem. My fit wasn't great (barrel slugs .401 instead of .400). The softer bullets deform just a bit and seal the bore.

Solder isn't really going to improve the hardness of WW that much. If you want harder, you will need some form of heat treatment (quench from mold, or oven heat then quench), or you will need to boost the antimony content by adding linotype, monotype or foundry type.

Wheel weight will benefit from the tin in the solder, allowing complete fill out at lower casting temps. Clip on WW are about .5% tin, and ideally you want 2%. That would be about 5 oz of 60/40 to 10lbs of WW. To make it easy I would do .5lbs solder to 9.5lbs of ww. You can see a table of the alloys here (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm).


Wow, Those were worth reading

Extremely informative and helpful

Thanks

[zomby woof]

Easily.

Read here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm) and here (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm).

Properly fit and lubed wheel weight bullets will probably handle 1400-1500 fps. They may be a little on the soft side, especially with a high pressure round. Water dropped WW should be fine for about any load in 454, again, if the fit and lube are correct.

I fell into the "can't be too hard" trap when I started casting. Had some leading issues in my 10mm loads. A softer alloy fixed up the problem. My fit wasn't great (barrel slugs .401 instead of .400). The softer bullets deform just a bit and seal the bore.

Solder isn't really going to improve the hardness of WW that much. If you want harder, you will need some form of heat treatment (quench from mold, or oven heat then quench), or you will need to boost the antimony content by adding linotype, monotype or foundry type.

Wheel weight will benefit from the tin in the solder, allowing complete fill out at lower casting temps. Clip on WW are about .5% tin, and ideally you want 2%. That would be about 5 oz of 60/40 to 10lbs of WW. To make it easy I would do .5lbs solder to 9.5lbs of ww. You can see a table of the alloys here (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm).

I think your math is a little off. 60/40 solder is 60% tin. You'll need about 4 ounces of 60/40 solder to get your 10 lb pot up to 2% tin with WW.

[Wayne Smith]

Pat Marlin of this site is making a gas check maker to fit aluminum can metal gas checks on PLAIN base boolits. This was done some years back by Paco Kelley and others with good results.
Jay

I don't think so - I don't know about Paco but I've never read Pat to talk about gas checks on a non gas check boolit. My answer to the original question is NO. By putting a gc on a plain base boolit, if you can find one that will fit, you increase the diameter of the base of the boolit. What that will do to pressure I don't want to find out.

[madman]

I shoot 440 gr plain base cast out of my .500 BFR at 1575fps Yea it is hot!! I make my own lubes I have had only 1 leading problem and that was my fault it was a store bought lube and an undersized Mountain Mold. I still have the mold have not played with it yet. The 357 mag is known for leading bad with hot loads. I know there will some that will say the have no problems with the 357 there is s comercial caster here that has made his own lubes just for the 357.

[mroliver77]

I don't think so - I don't know about Paco but I've never read Pat to talk about gas checks on a non gas check boolit. My answer to the original question is NO. By putting a gc on a plain base boolit, if you can find one that will fit, you increase the diameter of the base of the boolit. What that will do to pressure I don't want to find out.

Quote fro Pat hisself. "We are currently running 30 cal right now, and taking orders for the 30, 35, and 35 plain base. We will be offering all other calibers as time progresses."

Na na na na naaaa! ;)

Jay

[sqlbullet]

I think your math is a little off. 60/40 solder is 60% tin. You'll need about 4 ounces of 60/40

I didn't do math, I estimated really quick while I typed.:-D

You are correct. The math says you need exactly:

4 oz of 60/40 + 156 oz of WW
3.81 oz of 63/37 + 156.19 oz of WW
24 oz of 1/10 + 136 oz of WW
2.53 oz of 95/5 (Sn/Ag) + 157.47 oz of WW
2.47 oz of 97/3 (Sn/Ag) + 157.53 oz of WW

I am never that concerned with exact amounts because the tin content of WW is variable. It is about .5%, but can range lower or higher. If it had none, it would require 5.33 oz of 60/40 to get to 2%.

Therefore, about 5 oz of 60/40 will ensure 2% or very near, even if your particular batch of WW is approaching only the 'trace' of tin.

Additionally, most ingots I deal with are of the .5 lb and 1 lb variety. Therefore, a .5 lb ingot of solder and 10 - 1lb ingots of WW works out plenty close enough.

Zomby, I don't mean to make you feel attacked, nor do I want to sound particularly defensive. I just wanted you to understand my perspective, and the reason I gave the answers I did.

[44man]

I find conflicting loads with one book showing 19 gr of 296 as max and another showing 21.6??? Most likely due to the age of my books and bullet construction. My newer books show less powder.
I still feel justified to tell you to start at the minimum because I have 2 boolits the same weight, seating depth and shape and one will take a larger charge then the other. One will stick brass right at the point it shoots best, the other uses more powder with cases that fall out.
I really don't know if a boolit can be too hard. Tin does little to harden lead but helps bond antimony and any trace metals. I think it is more about the alloy instead of the hardness where metals are out of balance and are not bonded together. Two different alloys with the same BHN can act different with one leading the bore like crazy and the other working perfectly. I think more work needs to be done here and to ignore BHN a little and rely on alloy toughness and atomic bond too. Even WW's from different parts of the country can have different metal amounts. For me to say you need to add so much tin might be wrong for you and you might need more or less.
Unless we buy virgin metal or alloys from a reputable source, we have no idea what we have.
Sure, softening an under size boolit can stop leading and it can even stop leading if the boolit is the right size to start with but you don't want to reach the point of boolit damage. I figure it is best to find the alloy hardness and toughness with what lead you have so boolits maintain form. Not less and more is sure not needed either because it costs more.
That is the crux of the problem, none of us knows what is in those piles of ingots we have stacked up. The stuff you melted 20 years ago might be far different then what you melted yesterday. If you have 300# stacked, you need a pot to melt together all 300# to even it out so you have a starting point.
This could be the reason some of us have so much luck and others pull their hair out! [smilie=1:
The secret of course is to do no damage to your boolit when you shoot it.

[ScottJ]

I find conflicting loads with one book showing 19 gr of 296 as max and another showing 21.6??? Most likely due to the age of my books and bullet construction. My newer books show less powder.

Your original claim of over max had me go back through all the manuals I consulted when I first put those .357s together (these are all jacketed stuff).

19.5 is below start in Sierra #3 and Speer #11 as well as the data on the WW Powder website (which I assume is the newest available).

It is over max according to my first edition Lee manual.

I have three different 125 gr bullets that work with that powder charge and give about the same accuracy.

What I'm hoping to do is match that performance with a 125gr cast but probably can't unless I gas check it. Been looking for an off the rack 125gr gas check mold and haven't seen one yet.

Of course I'd step back and work up with the component change but I have confidence in that 19.5 gr charge.

[Bret4207]

First answer is NO.
Second is that you are over max with 19.5 gr already for jacketed so you need to work loads for cast. Drop to minimum and work up.
Make the boolit hard and you do not need a gas check. I have shot PB to 1800 fps in a 45-70 revolver, but they shoot best at a little over 1600 fps. Look for the accuracy point and get away from as fast as you can go.
As you soften boolits, you need a gas check more and more until you even exceed it's grip on the rifling. That is what a gas check is for, to stop the skid at the base. Some wads can still seal behind a boolit even when it has skidded too much and opened gas channels at the rifling marks and guys have used upside down gas checks, etc. At no time should a gas check or wad be separate from the boolit base and fall down to the powder. This is a tricky solution to a problem solved with hard boolits.

One mans opinion.

[Bret4207]

Can a boolit be too hard?

I am shooting the .454 casull, so far I have loaded lead only in the Colt brass because of concerns with leading and bullet strength, so i am only pushing them at about 800 - 900 fps.

How much solder should a guy add to per pound of wheel weight lead in the pot to make boolits "hard" enough for velocities of 1600 fps or so.

I am currently using 250 gr rn .452 but have been looking at getting a 300 gr mold with the Gas check option.

Fit, FIT, FIT!!! Fit is the paramount issue with cast, it comes above and before all else. It about the only hard and fast rule I'll cling to anymore. Fit the boolit to your gun, or find a gun that fits that boolit, and then start playing with the other stuff. IMO, and this is just me, boolit hardness is almost entirely unimportant in the grand scheme of things. You might have a low of 9-10 and a high of maybe 18-20 without heat treating and I can guarantee you cash money that you can take the hardest lead alloy boolit you can make and turn into a leading machine with a sizer die. Fit the boolit to the gun, find a powder/primer/boolit/case/gun combo that works with the alloy you have available. So far I've gone over 2200 fps without leading with straight WW and a GC. You should have no problem reaching 1600 FPS with WW alloy. The powder/pressure curve is what you need to work on. If you want a harder boolit, rather than buying super expensive components, try water quenching WW's. Hardness alone will not give you a non-leading, accurate load. That is 100% advertising hype.

I don't mean to come off as harsh, but we get the same question day after day after day. Read the Stickies and Classics, read the stickies at each area heading. Fit the boolit to your gun and start there. I was on the same search you are 15 years ago and went for HARDNESS because that was what the ad's all talked about and it was a lot easier to add solder than to fit the boolit. Start with fit.:drinks:

[ScottJ]

Read the Stickies and Classics, read the stickies at each area heading. Fit the boolit to your gun and start there.

Along those lines I did search on slugging a barrel and didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

Looking for ways to slug revolvers. Can't really get at the breach to drive the boolit.

[Bret4207]

Using the usual soft lead slug in the lightly lubed barrel you can use what a mounts to a 2 piece anvil- a hardwood rod at the rear of the barrel and another hard wood block behind that against the frame. The slug goes against the rod and you tap it until firm from the muzzle end. Then knock the rearmost block out and the backer rod comes out after that allowing you to knock the slug out the breech end. If you mismeasure like I did the first time you can cut the backer dowel off to get it out.

The other way is to drive an oversize slug into the muzzle and out the breech.

Both work, the 2nd way is more common I suppose, but I prefer the first.

[Wayne Smith]

Quote fro Pat hisself. "We are currently running 30 cal right now, and taking orders for the 30, 35, and 35 plain base. We will be offering all other calibers as time progresses."

Na na na na naaaa! ;)

Jay

Hey, Jay, never said he didn't say it, just said I never read it. I've spent too much time on the witness stand to be that careless with words.

[oleycow]

Fit, FIT, FIT!!!
I don't mean to come off as harsh, but we get the same question day after day after day. Read the Stickies and Classics, read the stickies at each area heading. Fit the boolit to your gun and start there. I was on the same search you are 15 years ago and went for HARDNESS because that was what the ad's all talked about and it was a lot easier to add solder than to fit the boolit. Start with fit.:drinks:

I don't take it as harsh, I am just trying to ask as many questions as I can. The articles listed above are in great agreement with you. I am in no way of looking at attempting to solve all of my problems by getting as hard of a boolit as I can. Rather as learning what things to look for to avoid errors on the top end of hardness. I sure appreciate your advice. I have been having a little trouble slugging my barrel due to the ports at the muzzle, but it appears that I am coming out at .452, and so i plan on sizing to .452. I did read once from "44 man" (i think) that it could be helpful to shoot a larger diameter for the sake of not allowing gas to escape. so if it slugs at .452 you could shoot .454 and allow the barrell itself to do the sizing.

That makes me a little nervous so I have never tried it.

[felix]

It is a lot easier to fit the chamber. The boolit inside the case should expand the total seating diameter to be as large as is the chamber, minus 0.001, in all bolt type guns. Experiments in boolit size should be downwards, not upwards. Final size depends on total load construction. ... felix

[Bret4207]

I don't take it as harsh, I am just trying to ask as many questions as I can. The articles listed above are in great agreement with you. I am in no way of looking at attempting to solve all of my problems by getting as hard of a boolit as I can. Rather as learning what things to look for to avoid errors on the top end of hardness. I sure appreciate your advice. I have been having a little trouble slugging my barrel due to the ports at the muzzle, but it appears that I am coming out at .452, and so i plan on sizing to .452. I did read once from "44 man" (i think) that it could be helpful to shoot a larger diameter for the sake of not allowing gas to escape. so if it slugs at .452 you could shoot .454 and allow the barrell itself to do the sizing.

That makes me a little nervous so I have never tried it.

If your revolver/pistol is running .452 then you want to size at least .453 not .452. If a rifle, do as Felix says.

[mroliver77]

Hey, Jay, never said he didn't say it, just said I never read it. I've spent too much time on the witness stand to be that careless with words.

har har har!
Jay

[Fire_stick]

Can you gas check a boolit not originally designed for it?

Lee makes a 125gr for .38/357 but it's not a GC design.

I'd really like to try it over the 19.5gr of 296 I use for jacketed stuff but figure that's just a tad too hot for plain base.

ScottJ,

First off, I am using a rifle and not a revolver, but I have started paper patching bullets like this when I want to push the envelope. I use cigarette paper for patching. Slug your barrel and aim for about .0005" to .001" over. Start at minimum loads and work up.

So far I have had no issues, and I have pushed air cooled bullets pretty hard, but time has not permitted me to experiment as much as I would like.