9X23 Winchester

[Blkpwdrbuff]

OK guys, first off, if this is in the wrong forum please put it in the right place.
Here's my questions.
My gunsmith has me all het up about building a 9X23 Winchester on a 1911 frame.
What do you guys know about it and second what would be some good loads using the Lee 120 TC mould(not the Tumble Lube)?
Any and all experiences and information will be much appreciated.
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

[StarMetal]

OK guys, first off, if this is in the wrong forum please put it in the right place.
Here's my questions.
My gunsmith has me all het up about building a 9X23 Winchester on a 1911 frame.
What do you guys know about it and second what would be some good loads using the Lee 120 TC mould(not the Tumble Lube)?
Any and all experiences and information will be much appreciated.
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html

Joe

[KYCaster]

Blkpwdrbuff, my first question is...What do you intend to do with the gun? And second is...What do you expect the 9X23 to do that you can't do with a 38super+P?

I suggest that before you commit to a 9X23 that you try to find a good supply of brass. I think you'll find it's a very rare commodity, and if your gunsmith just happens to have a couple thousand rounds of it, I'd question his motive for suggesting the cartridge.

I'm not familiar with Burns Custom that Joe referred you to, but the latest 9X23 reference I found there is from 2000, and most of the info is at least twenty years old. I have lots of respect for Walt Rauch, he is one of the founders of IPSC, but his quote praising the 9X23 is almost thirty years old, and the John Ricco and Chip McCormick designs referred to are over twenty years old.

I'm fairly certain that Winchester no longer makes 9X23 ammo or brass so the only components available are from existing stocks.

Copied and pasted from the Burns site:
"Why is it better? How about a litany of benefits to the 9x23? It makes a 1911 a 10 + 1 gun with *cheap* factory magazines. Ten round magazines being the magic number these days. It has the ballistic potential to match the very best fight stopping cart, the 125 grain, 357 magnum. It has none of the down sides of the 357 mag. No excessive flash, less muzzle blast and a mild recoil. In fact it's easier to shoot than a 45 acp. The recoil is mild with less muzzle lift. A 9x23 gun in factory configuration weighs 2 oz. more than a 45acp gun. All the extra weight is in the barrel. It helps with the recoil. While loaded almost to maximum, its potential for down loaded target ammo is unlimited. The 9x23 case feeds better than any other round in the 1911 frame."

I don't disagree with anything in that paragraph, but the same can be said for the 38super+P and for the 38 Super Comp.

Since 1984 when Rob Letham started winning with the 38super, there have been many attempts to improve on the shortcomings of the cartridge, mainly the weak brass and the "semi-rim". That tiny rim was supposed to improve headspacing, but turned out to be counter productive. Lots of people claim that the rim actually causes feeding problems.

Because of its popularity for IPSC competition, the 38super+P was developed which improved the strength of the brass tremendously. Gunsmiths also learned to cut chambers to headspace on the case mouth like the other ACP cartridges, use barrels with fully supported chambers and build magazines that would reliably feed the semi-rimmed rounds. So the 38 Super of today is a completely different cartridge than the one the 9X23 is being compared to.

The most recent improvement is the 38 Super Comp. It has all the desirable characteristics of the 9X23, AND new brass is still available from Star Line.

38super+P, 9X23, 9X21, 38TJ, 38S Rimless, 38 Super Comp, 9X19 Major....all of them will do the same job and all of them, at one time or another, were fairly popular in IPSC Open Division. A good friend of mine has a comp gun that will run them all interchangeably without a hitch. (Well....depending on OAL [smilie=1: )

The final decision, of course, depends on your personal preference, but I would seriously consider the availability of brass.

Jerry

[S.R.Custom]

Eeew. Unless for some reason you've got a fetish for .35 bores, I wouldn't fool with it. If you're going to be clawing around in the dirt retrieving expensive brass, the 10mm would be a much better choice. Not only is the 10mm vastly superior to the 9x23 in every way, but the brass is bigger and somewhat easier to spot.

[StarMetal]

I tend to agree with KYcaster. Depends what you want to do with it, but personally I think the 9mm Luger round is fine. If you want a little more then that, then the 38 Super. Grafs lists 9x23 brass and Starline does too, but 9mm Luger and38 Super is still easier to get. If I opted for a 38 Super I'd get a match barrel that head spaces on the case mouth rather then the old Colt method of using the rim. They can be very very accurate. Also 9mm Luger and 38 Super magazine at easier to find too. I assume that saying you're going to shoot cast out of it that we're not looking at the 9x23 virtues of high velocity and energy as a factor.

Joe

[Bret4207]

I agree with Joe. Things like the 9x23, 41 Action Express, 5.7 Velo Dog, 28-30 Stevens all sound great till you go to get brass and dies. Ask someone who owns a 9mm Federal or Daisy 22VL how their ammo supply is holding up.

[bob208]

another one we used years ago was the .38-45. .45 acp necked to take a 357 bullet we used the 358429 in them and they worked well. you do lose some brass when forming them. but then how hard is 45acp brass to come by?

all you need is the dies and a barrel if you want to change it you just use a .45 barrel.

[StarMetal]

another one we used years ago was the .38-45. .45 acp necked to take a 357 bullet we used the 358429 in them and they worked well. you do lose some brass when forming them. but then how hard is 45acp brass to come by?

all you need is the dies and a barrel if you want to change it you just use a .45 barrel.

Well Bret may be right agreeing with me, I got a 38-45 and after getting it the novelty wore off pretty fast. Still have it and it sets in my gun safe. In fact last year was the first time I shot in it in nearly 20 years. It was the fact that it was extremely different at the time. It did do what was said of it and it doesn't require any exotic brass, just form it from plentiful 45 acp as mentioned.

Joe

[Mastiff]

Blkpwdrbuff, my first question is...What do you intend to do with the gun? And second is...What do you expect the 9X23 to do that you can't do with a 38super+P?

I suggest that before you commit to a 9X23 that you try to find a good supply of brass. I think you'll find it's a very rare commodity, and if your gunsmith just happens to have a couple thousand rounds of it, I'd question his motive for suggesting the cartridge.

I'm not familiar with Burns Custom that Joe referred you to, but the latest 9X23 reference I found there is from 2000, and most of the info is at least twenty years old. I have lots of respect for Walt Rauch, he is one of the founders of IPSC, but his quote praising the 9X23 is almost thirty years old, and the John Ricco and Chip McCormick designs referred to are over twenty years old.

I'm fairly certain that Winchester no longer makes 9X23 ammo or brass so the only components available are from existing stocks.

Copied and pasted from the Burns site:
"Why is it better? How about a litany of benefits to the 9x23? It makes a 1911 a 10 + 1 gun with *cheap* factory magazines. Ten round magazines being the magic number these days. It has the ballistic potential to match the very best fight stopping cart, the 125 grain, 357 magnum. It has none of the down sides of the 357 mag. No excessive flash, less muzzle blast and a mild recoil. In fact it's easier to shoot than a 45 acp. The recoil is mild with less muzzle lift. A 9x23 gun in factory configuration weighs 2 oz. more than a 45acp gun. All the extra weight is in the barrel. It helps with the recoil. While loaded almost to maximum, its potential for down loaded target ammo is unlimited. The 9x23 case feeds better than any other round in the 1911 frame."

I don't disagree with anything in that paragraph, but the same can be said for the 38super+P and for the 38 Super Comp.

Since 1984 when Rob Letham started winning with the 38super, there have been many attempts to improve on the shortcomings of the cartridge, mainly the weak brass and the "semi-rim". That tiny rim was supposed to improve headspacing, but turned out to be counter productive. Lots of people claim that the rim actually causes feeding problems.

Because of its popularity for IPSC competition, the 38super+P was developed which improved the strength of the brass tremendously. Gunsmiths also learned to cut chambers to headspace on the case mouth like the other ACP cartridges, use barrels with fully supported chambers and build magazines that would reliably feed the semi-rimmed rounds. So the 38 Super of today is a completely different cartridge than the one the 9X23 is being compared to.

The most recent improvement is the 38 Super Comp. It has all the desirable characteristics of the 9X23, AND new brass is still available from Star Line.

38super+P, 9X23, 9X21, 38TJ, 38S Rimless, 38 Super Comp, 9X19 Major....all of them will do the same job and all of them, at one time or another, were fairly popular in IPSC Open Division. A good friend of mine has a comp gun that will run them all interchangeably without a hitch. (Well....depending on OAL [smilie=1: )

The final decision, of course, depends on your personal preference, but I would seriously consider the availability of brass.

Jerry
Jerry, FWIW, I just bought 9x23 brass within the last 6 months from Grafs. They are presently out of stock but it is still listed on their site.
I love this round! I am shooting it out of a Romanian and a Yugoslavian Tokarev that have 9mm Tok barrels reamed out for the round. I get 357 Magnum ballistics in an autoloader that cost me $209, plus $35 for the extra barrel (I'm a cheap son of a gun). What's not to like? If they ever stop making the brass it is easy enough to convert .223 brass, and that isn't going to run out in my lifetime.

[mike in co]

If they ever stop making the brass it is easy enough to convert .223 brass, and that isn't going to run out in my lifetime.



lol...that is a joke!

before you say it is easy go make 100 pcs.
the wall thickness it too much at neck, so they myst be reamed...custom reamer.
the case volume is less as the back end is much thicker, complete new load development.


been there done that.....9x21


mike in co

[MtGun44]

I don't know what ballistics you are looking for but I have 70,000 + rounds thru
my Wilson LEcomp .38 Super. Two loads stand out in my memory. 5.7 W571/HS7
under a 158 SWC makes aroudn 1225 IIRC and the brass lasts literally forever in my
unsupported chamber. I also worked up a load with the Hornady 124 JHP. It went
1400 fps which I figured would work for self defense if every required.

So - is the 9x23 going to better this enough to put up with the brass issues? OR -
if you just want it "JUST BECAUSE" it is still a free country, have at it. I doubt that
there will be much practical difference over the well developed .38 Super +P that
has been developed because of IPSC, but it is still a free country. Of course,
Obama is working to correct that.

Bill

[StarMetal]

I don't know what ballistics you are looking for but I have 70,000 + rounds thru
my Wilson LEcomp .38 Super. Two loads stand out in my memory. 5.7 W571/HS7
under a 158 SWC makes aroudn 1225 IIRC and the brass lasts literally forever in my
unsupported chamber. I also worked up a load with the Hornady 124 JHP. It went
1400 fps which I figured would work for self defense if every required.

So - is the 9x23 going to better this enough to put up with the brass issues? OR -
if you just want it "JUST BECAUSE" it is still a free country, have at it. I doubt that
there will be much practical difference over the well developed .38 Super +P that
has been developed because of IPSC, but it is still a free country. Of course,
Obama is working to correct that.

Bill

Man, that 1400 fps with 124 Hornady is a hot load!!!That has got to be running around 35k pressure.

Joe

[KYCaster]

OK, I checked a couple of suppliers and couldn't find any 9X23 in stock.

A couple of places listed Winchester brass available so I suppose they still catalogue it. What I've come to expect from Winchester is unless somebody orders a couple million pieces it'll be a long time before they make any of it. And Win brass is consistantly twice the price of Starline(which is also out of stock).

Midway has theirs listed as 9mm Super Competition/9X23. They didn't show a headstamp so I'm kinda confused by the description. Is it Super Comp or is it 9X23...similar, but two different cartridges.(doesn't really matter, out of stock)

Everybody seems to have 38Super+P in several different flavors, so there should be no wait to get it...and at half the price of 9X23(which isn't available anyway).

Bill's 124 gr. @ 1400 makes the new IPSC 165 power factor by a good margin but falls a little short of the old 175PF. Still a pretty hot load for an unsupported barrel.

That Tok rechambered to 9X23 sounds really interesting. It should be a fun gun to play with. I think I'll start looking for one to work on. I have a bunch of Super Comp brass that should work as well as the 9X23.(all I need is another project [smilie=b:)

Jerry

[mike in co]

Bill's 124 gr. @ 1400 makes the new IPSC 165 power factor by a good margin but falls a little short of the old 175PF. Still a pretty hot load for an unsupported barrel.

Jerry



yeah you need to move all the way up to 125( from that 124) to make major...lol( 173.5 vs 175)

i use to shoot 135's at 1300 for major.....0.5 to play with...lol

mike in co

[mike in co]

OK guys, first off, if this is in the wrong forum please put it in the right place.
Here's my questions.
My gunsmith has me all het up about building a 9X23 Winchester on a 1911 frame.
What do you guys know about it and second what would be some good loads using the Lee 120 TC mould(not the Tumble Lube)?
Any and all experiences and information will be much appreciated.
Blkpwdrbuff:castmine:

my guess is he has parts/dies/brass to sell...no other reason for it.


mike in co

[MtGun44]

The 124 Hornady at 1400 (chronoed) is possible for two reasons. First +P brass,
and second - the Wilson LEComp had a .357 bbl and the jbullet was a 9mm, so it
fit well enough to be accurate and stable, but not build up a lot of pressure. I could
not shoot .356 cast boolits in that gun with anything like accy, plus they would be
noticably yawed at 10 yds. .358 diam commercial hard cast (Crayola lube) 147 and 158
SWCs made major pretty well, but the load, while a legal Hodgdon load was right at
max pressure. The 124 gr load was right at max, too, but the primer pockets stayed
tight after multiple loads etc.

One quirk. It worked fine (lead 158 load or 124 jboolit loads) with any .38 Super +P
brass EXCEPT Winchester. I had to be very careful to sort thru my brass since I would
occasionally get someone else's Win .38 Super +P+ which would either blow out at
the unsupported area or bulge so far as to be truly frightening when you found one.
PMC, Rem, Starline, Midway brass all worked so well you could shoot it forever, certainly
30+ loads before you'd start to get some mouth cracks. Batter the headstamp off on the
ejector it was loaded so many times. Just would not work with Win +P or +P+ brass.

Bill

[leftiye]

FWIW, 9X23 is also 9mm largo, and there is surplus ammo for it. Unless you're planning a war, or shooting some kind of competition where millions of brass are needed, IMHO there are very few cartridges that a reloader should worry about having ammo for (wildcats for instance). BTW Sarco is selling Star Modelo Supers right now in 9mm largo for $145.