BP Load testing

[HPT]

Today I did some shooting at 100yds comparing .060" LDPE Wads vs Milk Carton wads in 2 of my guns:

.45-70 Sharps, 70gr FFG Goex, Wad, Newspaper wad & Lyman Postel
.38-55 Winchester, 42gr FFG Goex, Wad, Newspaper wad & Lee 250 gr

Picture #1 shows 10-shot LDPE wad group on left & 2.63" 10-shot Milk Carton wad group on right shot with the .45-70 Sharps

Picture #2 shows 10-shot LDPE wad group marked w/line thru and 3.00" 10-shot Milk Carton wad group is holes unmarked with the Oliver P Winchester (not bad with factory barrel sights I'm thinking).

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_1958.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_1957.jpg


So, I'm staying with my Milk carton wads. Next I'd like to try the Swiss 1-1/2 FG everybody raves about. My poll question is to those who have tried both Goex FFG and Swiss 1-1/2 FG, How much should I expect my 100 yd 10-shot groups to improve?

[Mike0904]

I'm waiting on my new globe sight w/bubble level but I would say more than an inch
tighter but I have only tried Swiss the one time. Too bad I have to work dangit it just cuts way too far into my recreation time ;^)

[NickSS]

I have used GOEX and Swiss 1.5 in 45-70s, 40-65 and 38-55 rifles and have found that I get about the same accuracy with Swiss and GOEX but the Swiss gives higher velocities and cleaner burning. Swiss is denser so you can get more of it in a case.

[cajun shooter]

HPT, When you say that you are comparing Goex 2F with Swiss 1.5 which Goex are you using for comparison? Goex unlike Swiss has Grades. The straight 2F would not in any way be a fair test as the Swiss goes through more processing. You would at least have to try Goex Cartridge( my everyday 45-70 powder) or better yet Goex Express which is what Goex makes to take on the Swiss powder. We have on this forum some well known top shooters that use the Express at such events as Raton. I , myself have only played with it and have no LR target work but from what I have read the Goex Express holds it's ground well.

[HPT]

Hi Cajun, I used regular Goex FFG. My problem is only reg Goex is available locally (within 150 miles) I'd have to travel 500 miles west or 1300 miles east to get anything else (or maybe pay a big shipping fee) as I'm in Canada

[1874Sharps]

HPT,

I cannot say exactly how much better the accuracy will be with Swiss 1 1/2FG, but I can say the Swiss powder sure helped out my group size (by about an inch at 100 yards) compared to standard Goex FFG. I also found I could shoot around 15 to 20 straight shots with the Swiss before accuracy started to degrade, and that without blowtubing. Of course those times were on days of high South Texas humidity and I would not think it would hold true were I shooting in the desert. Because the Swiss powder has worked out so well I have not tried the Goex Express (the price difference is not that great). It seems the Swiss is the choice of the champion shooters as well.

[montana_charlie]

I have never seen a milk carton that was .060" thick.

Some champions use Swiss powder. Some champions use .060" wads. Some champions use thinner wads. And, some champions use LDPE wads.

When you compared the two different wad materials in an otherwise unchanged 45/70 load, you also changed the amount of compression on the charge.
So, in essence, you tested two changes at the same time...and you wonder if a 'thrid change' might tighten your groups.

Slow down and be more exacting. If you want to compare LDPE plastic against milk carton material, stack enough carton wads to equal the thickness of the plastic. Then see what you get.

This all assumes you have shot clear through the range of powder charges, and tried short and long bullet seating, before working your way down to the difference in wad material.
Actually, you should do the whole workup with milk carton wads...and do it all again with the LDPE.

Once you have found the best load for each wad material...then, you have something to compare.

CM

[cajun shooter]

If you are comparing Swiss with standard grade Goex then you are comparing apples and oranges and that cannot be called a test of fair evaluation. That's putting $10 a pound up against $20 a lb powder. 1874 Sharps, your statement that Swiss is the choice of champions is also broad and speculative .

[martinibelgian]

Well,
Don't forget it took Swiss to get Goex to wake up, clean up their act and come out with express - only question is: why should a domestic powder cost the same or more as an imported powder? If not for Swiss, there wouldn't have been any Goex express, and all you would have is just standard grade...

[1874Sharps]

1874 Sharps, your statement that Swiss is the choice of champions is also broad and speculative .[/QUOTE]

It may be a broad statement but it is not speculative. I have seen the loads listed that champion shooters use in match results and the vast majority use Swiss black powder and SPG lube. To say Swiss is the choice of the champion shooters is true according to what I have seen posted.

[montana_charlie]

To say Swiss is the choice of the champion shooters is true according to what I have seen posted.
I don't spend much time reading those lists, but I'll take your word that Swiss shooting champions outnumber Goex burners.

That may change.

A guy who achieved champoinship status through the use of Swiss, is unlikely to switch...especially since the cost of Goex Express is no real incentive. But, those on the way up the ladder are still prone to experiment, and Goex Express is hard to ignore. It will be harder if the dollar's value changes enough to make Swiss even more 'special'.

That would present a 'second chance' to grab a chunk of the Swiss market share that they 'missed' when they came up with the current price for Express.
In that event, it would really be a stupid move if Goex raised their price on Express...just because the cost of importing Swiss went up.

But, seeing how the 'local' rifle makers bump their prices whenever European prices get dragged up by our failing dollar, I expect Goex will follow that example.

CM

[John Boy]

In that event, it would really be a stupid move if Goex raised their price on Express...just because the cost of importing Swiss went up.
Charlie, this statement smacks that your not buying much Goex powder of late...
... Jan 2008 - 10% price increase
... Oct 2008 - 12% price increase
Including Express!

[Don McDowell]

Charlie, this statement smacks that your not buying much Goex powder of late...
... Jan 2008 - 10% price increase
... Oct 2008 - 12% price increase
Including Express!

Yup and Swiss went up also, and is still 1$ or more higher than Goex Express.

This nonsense bs about swiss being more accurate than Goex is just somemuch internet bullspit. I know one national champion shooter in a couple of disciplines that shoots swiss because he gets 1/4 moa better groups than with Goex, and doesn't care for some of the people that works for Goex. I also know some average shooters that do quite well that have quit swiss and went to Goex. Also know some that will shoot kik along time before they'll shoot the other brands.
Myself right now I've got a load with Grafs 2f (shuetzen) that is outshooting everything I've tried altho it barely edges out Cartridge.
Black Powder loads are alot like smokeless, each rifle has its own preferences, and until you've worked an entire gamut of loads with different bullets, lubes, powder, primers, wads etc, you won't know what's best for your rifle and neither will anyone else.

[cajun shooter]

Very well put Don and my exact point. It seems that people want to pass on what they have read or heard and not do any shooting to back it up. I also have some of Graf's 2F which works very well. What I found was that it shot dryer than the Goex Cartridge and I went back to cartridge. What I don't understand is the rush to put down on the last BP company in the USA. They pay taxes and employee American people(Louisiana people which I like). If Goex fails then the other makers will have you by the short hair. Graf's has to buy a container load of 2000 lbs (I think that is what Mike Graf told me on the phone) to get a good price on it. Kenny Wasserburger uses Goex Express and I only wish that I could shoot some of the shots that he has made. So for me Goex is more accurate than me and me buying Swiss would only help the Swiss and I don't speak the language.

[Don McDowell]

David, lube plays a big part in how much fouling and how soft or hard it is, but folks very often gloss over that part. While I like SPG and it is a very good lube, I've found lubes that not only help with better accuracy, but also leave a much kinder gentler sort of fouling, even when shooting Swiss and that hard red clay crap it leaves behind, that you never hear folks speak much about.
Another thing if you pour some of the Grafs 2f out on a sheet of paper and compare it to a sample of Goex 2f and 3f on the same sheet, you'll quick see that the European stuff is smaller than the Goex 2f. Hence forth the nonsense about how it takes less of the European stuff to get the same velocity. Well duh, drop down to 3f goex and see then what the chrony says, and the fouling etc.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie, this statement smacks that your not buying much Goex powder of late...
Actually, you're right, John. My current 25 pound case is very slow burning...because of a limitation in primers.
(at least, that's my current excuse...)

CM

[Lead pot]

I have used all the powders Elephant, Kik, Goex Cartridge/regular 1 and 2 f, and 1 and 2F Express, Swiss 1/1.5/and 2F, not just a can or two but by the case in six different calibers.
The first two I listed where my worst performers. I will leave that be.
I have not shot any Grafs.
But the difference between Goex Exp. and Swiss as far as accuracy goes I will give the Goex EXP and cartridge the edge.
What I find between exp and swiss shot on the sane day is the swiss tends to get harder fouling then the exp powder using the same fouling control.
Te ES and SD stays in the low single didgets for both powders but after 20 rounds fired the swiss starts to get wider spreads in SD and ES and with a hot barrel the EXP powder is softer than the swiss

[1874Sharps]

Lead Pot,

You have more experience than I. I am curious, during your tests did you wipe between shots or blowtube? Also, what is the humidity usually like where you shoot?

[HPT]

Don McDowell,

Have you tried Graf 2FG without cleaning between shots? I found it was the only powder that shot just as good with or without wiping in my muzzleloaders (using paperpatched bullets) so was my choice for hunting. Just like anything else that works, I can't get it anymore.

I've tried Goex FFG reg & Goex FFG Express (no difference for me except cost) and Graf FFG. Not much difference at all for accuracy and only Goex FFG reg is readily available to me.

[Don McDowell]

HPT I test all the powders I try without blowtube or wiping. Then I mess with the tube and or wiping to see what's up.
Mostly I work on loads in the cool and damp of spring, 10 shots without loss of accuracy is what I look for. Then I retest when it starts getting warmer and dry,blow tube and wiping, but when it gets hot and dry, wiping is the best way to go .

[Lead pot]

74 sharps.

humidity around here runs about 60- 70% I guess 78% today but it's about to rain.I use a b-tube mostly, I get better consistency with the tube.
But I also patch 1 wet 2 dry when shooting PP.

See you in a few days Don. Pulling out in the morning.

[Don McDowell]

Sounds good, everything goes according to plans we should be there about noon Friday.

[hydraulic]

We'll be there Thursday afternoon. Looking forward to getting acquainted with that Taylor.

[Don McDowell]

Hydraulic watch for the old skamper motorhome to come rumbling in about noon on Friday. Looking forward to visiting with you again.

[1874Sharps]

Lead Pot,

How often do you run a cleaning patch (one wet and two dry)? Do you for example swab after each shot, every other, etc?

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot has left the building for a few days, but the last time I shot with him, when he wiped it was after everyshot.

[59sharps]

why not just use 2ffg swiss? for me I can take my 2ffg goex load reduce it by 10% and I get the same point of impact and group size. So far this has worked in my 58 cal musket, my 1863 54 cal sharps, and my 1860 44-40 henry using the `10% w/ 3fffg. :cbpour:

[Lead Fred]

Been using Goex FFF for years, works great, never no need to try nuttin else.

Besides I have a keg full

[Lead pot]

74 sharps.

When I shoot paper patch I swab after every shot.
This weekend I shot a long range match and fouled out shooting swiss 1.5 in my .50/90 but I still managed to put 10 shots in a row on the 1000 yard plate, 6 on the 900, 7 on the 800 and 6 on the 700. The barrel was so hot the screw holding the forearm on my Sharps was burning my hand.
I was shooting a GG bullet and blow tubing but couldn't get enough moisture down the barrel to keep the swiss soft.

Kurt

[1874Sharps]

Lead Pot,

Congratulations on the match success and PP shooting info!

59Sharps,

Wahoo, you have some cool guns that I have been wanting to get and try at the firing line, until I look at the bank account, anyway. I shot an 1859 (or maybe 1863) replica with a friend several years ago using nitrated paper cartridges and it was fun indeed! I have also been eying a Henry for BP cartridge just because they are cool looking and an historical milestone in shooting history. Alas, it is hard enough just keeping myself in shooting supplies and feeding the addiction!

[RMulhern]

I shot this using Swiss 1F in my C. Sharps 50/90. I was also wiping betwixt shots. Does this prove that Swiss outshoots Goex? Not hardly! The temp when I fired this was 92F and the humidity was 34%; quite low for my area during the time of year this was fired. What this does prove is that THIS RIFLE.....likes this load and my technique for fouling control. I dare say that Goex is perfectly capable of shooting as good as or better than the group shown!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/th_Targets002.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/?action=view&current=Targets002.jpg)

[Flintlockrecord]

RMulhern, how big is that gong? Nice shooting.