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View Full Version : Need Advice re: Correct Alloy for Paper Patched Bullets



Treetop
08-14-2009, 06:05 PM
I am ready to blend some alloy for .30 paper patch bullets at 1800-1900 fps. I will be using these in my .308W and .30-06 bolt guns this fall for Texas deer ( which, are NOT Texas sized, average in my county is about 90-110 lbs. dressed) and feral hogs, which can easily reach 300 lbs.

All I have available are several hundred lbs. each of "clip on" wheel weights and "stick on" wheel weights, which appear to be nearly pure lead using my unsophisticated "thumb nail" test. All are already smelted into Lyman ingots.


What I'm looking for from the experienced paper patch shooters is a ratio of Lyman ingots to blend for optimum obturation in the bore and expansion on game.

Do I need any "clip on" wheel weights? If so, how many per "stick on". I will be alloying in 20 to 30 lb. batches.

I'm guessing no more than one "clip on" ingot to 15 or 20 "stick ons" but I would like to hear from the experienced "paper patchers". Thanks,

docone31
08-14-2009, 06:36 PM
I use water dropped wheel weight. I also toss in some zinc. These I size to .308, wrap with two wraps of computer paper, twist the tail, let dry. These I then size to .309. The tails get clipped leaving a trace on the bottom. I use Auto Wax to lightly lube the outside. Just enough to barely see.
When I size for the first time, I use dish soap, then rinse off with hot water.
These I use full tilt loads.
Better performance than jacketeds of the same weight.
Also, the heavier the better.
I set my patches to regular OAL for the cartridge.

303Guy
08-14-2009, 06:45 PM
Just to give some idea of how a straight WW, un-heat treated, cast boolit expands like when fired at normal rifle velocity. (303 Brit). Velocity was probably around 2000fps.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-644F_edited.jpg

I think this was a 220gr boolit with G/C cast in place. (That is a greased wad stuck to its base - it was not patched).

1874Sharps
08-14-2009, 06:55 PM
Treetop,

First of all may I respectfully say thank you for your military service to our great country. To answer the question of alloy for hunting with paper patch bullets, for the velocity range you cite, you may need a slightly softer alloy than wheel weights for good expansion. Although if you follow Docone31's proceedure and load up all the way, I am sure you could use straight WWs. When I was developing a hunting load I used about two feet of soaking wet telephone books and shot my paper patch bullet along with a commercial jacketed hunting bullet side by side. Fortunately I got very comparable expansion and penetration, so that gave me confidence that my bullet was of a reasonable alloy and velocity. In my somewhat limited experience, it seems like the curve of a given cast bullet's expansion with velocity is exponential rather than linear. In other words, a certain cast bullet may give good penetration and expansion at a moderate velocity but be entirely too soft and give poor penetration if the velocity is increased a fairly small amount.

Treetop
08-14-2009, 08:22 PM
Just to give some idea of how a straight WW, un-heat treated, cast boolit expands like when fired at normal rifle velocity. (303 Brit). Velocity was probably around 2000fps.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-644F_edited.jpg

I think this was a 220gr boolit with G/C cast in place. (That is a greased wad stuck to its base - it was not patched).

303Guy, thats a very impressive photo, thanks for posting it. Was that recovered from a game animal or some other medium?

Treetop
08-14-2009, 08:26 PM
OK, now I'm really confused... One of (not the only) reason that I decided to start paper patching was to use up some of the huge stockpile of "stick on" wheel weights that I have accumulated over the years.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that very soft alloys made excellent paper patched bullets up to about 2,000 fps...

docone31
08-14-2009, 08:49 PM
With my .303 British, and .30cals, slow velocities = 20 minutes of berm if I am lucky.
I make mine the hardest I can. I add zinc. A bear to size in my Lee Sizer Dies, but great patched up.
I have a lot of "mystery metal" I have alloyed through the years. I use that in my patched loads.
Black Powder cartridge I have no experience with. Obturation I do not believe is happening in my castings upon firing.

giz189
08-14-2009, 09:07 PM
I believe the original Sharps boolitts were cast either 30 - 1 or 40 - 1. Don't remember which exactly, but it was one or the other.

montana_charlie
08-14-2009, 09:18 PM
I'm sure that I read somewhere that very soft alloys made excellent paper patched bullets up to about 2,000 fps...
I have no experience in patching or shooting small-caliber bullets. Nor have I hunted with PP bullets. But the PP bullets I shoot are (I believe) satisfactory for hunting...mainly due to their lack of hardness.

docone advocates hard bullets...even alloy with zinc added. In his post below yours, he says they are a bear to size.
That is the only mention of an animal I have ever heard from docone. Since he shoots only paper, you might want to evaluate his alloy advice in light of your intent to hunt with your bullets.

As for that thing you read somewhere...I believe it is correct in that you can shoot soft (perhaps even pure) bullets when they are wrapped in paper.
I can't say if your chosen velocity range is amenable to that, but it's worth trying.

So, use those stick-ons to make bullets. You will probably like the result.
If they prove too soft, melt 'em down and mix with a little bit of clip-on stuff.

CM

docone31
08-14-2009, 10:07 PM
Charlie, as usual, by the level by the square. Your post is dead on.
I punch paper. Now a days, I coach my wife. I get more pleasure helping her get comfortable in all schools. She is a little timid with the .54 I got her, but in time.
I was sent some pure lead castings from a person on this forum. They were carefully weighed, and categorized. I really like the way they look, all around 180gns give or take. Straight walled .301 diameter. They came from an obsolete mold from way back when. I did fire a few, leaving most behind in the case I ever get a mold made useing them as a copy.
I rolled them, sized them, the wrapping came to .310 with .301 as the core, or prime casting as I call it.
In my .308, I loaded them identically to my Uber-hard castings. They were fired about 2500fps. I don't have a chrony. I am going by load specs. Start up data for jacketed 180gn useing 4895 powder.
They also went straight into the paper at POI of the Uber-hards.
The berm at our range is sugar sand. I have not yet found any fired castings. They go deeply into the berm. I have fished for them but have not found them. I have found my jacketeds though. They are usually bent and near the surface. When I fire jacketeds, I fire 174gn MilSurp pulls.
My thoughts here, are, any lead alloy can be used with my small calibers with predictability. I have gone from pure to wheel weight with zinc. The paper indeed replicates a copper jacket in reliability. After ejecting the paper jacket, the lead is not affected by the forces in the barrel. My pure castings, did not explode after exiting the barrel. Results are determined by wrapping technique, or proficiency, and especially sizeing, which can be very precisely determined before loading.
And, no, I do not hunt. Especially in the woods that never see any snow. I can barely stand the heat at the firing line. I have however a deep respect for hunters. Especially the ones I know that are at the range every week like I am. I almost got some land in Kansas before I came here. The owners had allowed hunting for years there. They were afraid I would put a stop to it. I told them, just do not leave a mess and join me once in a while at my target range.
Someday, however, I am going to get me a rolly block! I am a Lefty and I had a Sharps. It didn't feel right. A rolly block feels good! I love those Sharps though. Quite probably a 40-65.
I agree.
Melt em up, cast em. If they are too soft, blend up.
You do not get that range with plain casting.
Or shiney bores either.

rhead
08-14-2009, 10:30 PM
I have carried 50 to 1 lead tin up to 2100 plus a little in my 30 30 using paper patched with 35 grains of H4350. For hunting you will probably want the softest bullet that will give adequate accuracy. You may want something a little harder for the hogs and live with less than ideal expansion for the deer unless you are willing to have two bullets. I would suggest trying a test run of 20%, 25% and 30% clip ons and listen to what your guns are telling you. Cast enough to let your fingers learn how to wrap the bullets. It isn't hard but it is a motor skill and requires a little practice. IMO slower powders for the application give better results than faster powders.

Treetop
08-14-2009, 11:19 PM
I would suggest trying a test run of 20%, 25% and 30% clip ons and listen to what your guns are telling you. Cast enough to let your fingers learn how to wrap the bullets. It isn't hard but it is a motor skill and requires a little practice. IMO slower powders for the application give better results than faster powders.

Thanks, rhead. This is the information I was looking for. Several weeks ago, I bought the book The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews and using that information plus what I have gleaned from castboolits.com, I have paper patched, lubed and sized almost 100 Lyman 31141 boolits. Finished size is .310". They are water quenched wheel weights because that's all I had on hand.

Tomorrow, I will blend some 20% and 25%, and along with these alloys I will cast some pure "stick on" lead boolits. Also thanks for the slower powder tip.

I better get busy! Lots of experimenting to do and deer season is < 3 months away.

303Guy
08-14-2009, 11:26 PM
Treetop, that boolit was fired into wet rags in my 'test tube'.

rhead, what boolit weight are you shooting in your 30-30? (I have this theory that the 30-30 is an ideal cast and/or paper patch boolit cartridge using such powders as H4350 and heavy boolits). I like the way you say "Cast enough to let your fingers learn how to wrap the bullets. ... " that is so true!:mrgreen:

I just did a 'test tube' test with a soft cast 25 patched boolit on top of 37gr of AR2209/H4350. here is the recovered boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-219F.jpg

The boolit started out at 121gr and the residue weighs in at 109gr, including the boolit fragments that were still with the main mass (and some rag from the medium). Penetration was not fantastic but would surely have reached the vitals of a deer. (This is only a 25 cal boolit). MV was probably near 2500fps. (And the muzzle was right on top of the 'medium'). I can't help thinking these soft cast PP's are going to be devastating on game!

P.S. For what it is worth, I only hunt and shoot critters who's numbers need to be controlled. I actually regret the kill itself! That's just me.

rhead
08-15-2009, 05:48 AM
rhead, what boolit weight are you shooting in your 30-30? (I have this theory that the 30-30 is an ideal cast and/or paper patch boolit cartridge using such powders as H4350 and heavy boolits). I like the way you say "Cast enough to let your fingers learn how to wrap the bullets. ... " that is so true!

I shoot the Lee 150 grain flat point. I have removed the gas check shank on one for making pp and plinkers. The other one produces fodder for the two 336's that I have that do not like paper patches. My plinking load is a plain base 150 gr. ans 14.5 grains of 2400. Easy on the ears and sub moa in my NEF, plenty good in everything else.
I agree on the 30 30 being a near ideal platform for cast/paper patch bullets. 45 70 is another along with the pistol calibers in rifles.
The statement about letting his fingers learn to wrap the patch was to hopefull keep him from passing over a good load because the patch wrapping failed.

Southern Son
08-15-2009, 07:03 AM
Rhead, the 2 336's that you say do not like P/P boolits, are they microgroove? I ask because I have been thinking about a 336 in either 30/30 or 35Rem (I was amazed to see one of the Queensland gun shops offering that cal.). I want to PP for the rifle, but I don't want to waste my money on a rifle that won't shoot PP. For about the same money I could get a 2nd hand BLR/Miroku Lever gun in .358win that would probably shoot PP great. I have seen in older posts people saying that a 336 in .35Rem should shoot P/P well, but I could not find any actual range reports from someone who had done it sucessfully.

pdawg_shooter
08-15-2009, 09:08 AM
If you are just poking holes in targets, linotype works best for accuracy. If you are hunting the softer the better. I have taken pure lead (2%) tin up to 2200fps. A BHN of 12-12.5 will work to around 2550-2600fps. I have taken a Bhn 14.5 to just over 3000fps with MOA accuracy.

rhead
08-15-2009, 10:15 AM
Yes they are microgroove but so is the NEF that shoots them fine. They could probably be made to shoot them OK but I have not put in the effort. They shoot cast plainbase and gas checks fine so the incentive for alterations just isn't there.

Treetop
08-15-2009, 11:24 AM
If you are just poking holes in targets, linotype works best for accuracy. If you are hunting the softer the better. I have taken pure lead (2%) tin up to 2200fps. A BHN of 12-12.5 will work to around 2550-2600fps. I have taken a Bhn 14.5 to just over 3000fps with MOA accuracy.

pdawg, thanks for that data. I just wish that I knew how to convert BHN to ratios of lead:tin or lead:tin/antimony. I suppose that I will eventually have to invest in a hardness tester.

montana_charlie
08-15-2009, 01:11 PM
I suppose that I will eventually have to invest in a hardness tester.
Would you like to cobble up a rough one?
(I have not actually made one of these...)

Find a piece of large tubing...maybe a 1-inch inside diameter...of any material (steel or plastic doesn't matter).
Two or three feet long should suffice.

Make a 'slug' from a piece of 1-inch steel rod (about two or three pounds) with a ball bearing epoxied to one end. A bearing between 1/4- inch and 1/2-inch should do.

Lay an ingot on the floor, set the end of the tube on it, drop the slug from the top end of the tube, measure the diameter of the indention made by the bearing.

If the indention equals the OD of the bearing you need to lighten the slug, or shorten the tube...or both...to get less impact force.

It won't tell you "BHN" unless you devise a conversion chart, but measuring dimple diameters will give you variations relative to hardness of the alloy.

CM

Treetop
08-15-2009, 01:57 PM
Would you like to cobble up a rough one?
(I have not actually made one of these...)

Find a piece of large tubing...maybe a 1-inch inside diameter...of any material (steel or plastic doesn't matter).
Two or three feet long should suffice.

Make a 'slug' from a piece of 1-inch steel rod (about two or three pounds) with a ball bearing epoxied to one end. A bearing between 1/4- inch and 1/2-inch should do.

Lay an ingot on the floor, set the end of the tube on it, drop the slug from the top end of the tube, measure the diameter of the indention made by the bearing.

If the indention equals the OD of the bearing you need to lighten the slug, or shorten the tube...or both...to get less impact force.

It won't tell you "BHN" unless you devise a conversion chart, but measuring dimple diameters will give you variations relative to hardness of the alloy.

CM

Montana Charlie, that's probably a lot less subjective than what I'm doing now. I'm using a ball bearing between two Lyman ingots. One ingot is a known, such as W/Ws or linotype, the other is an unknown. Place them in a vise, and tighten it hard. Take them out and measure the indentation of the unknown with dial calipers and compare that indentation to the known...

I like your idea better, thanks.

montana_charlie
08-15-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm using a ball bearing between two Lyman ingots. One ingot is a known, such as W/Ws or linotype, the other is an unknown.
Use the known alloys to establish some cardinal points in your 'conversion chart'...

1874Sharps
08-15-2009, 03:20 PM
Treetop,

The only way to know if a given alloy will work out, whether of known composition or mystery metal, is to try it out at the bench. You may find that a given bullet and load will loose its accuracy as it gets above a certain velocity (presumably from excessive obturation). That has been true of the 30 caliber paper patch bullet I have been fooling with for about a year now. Ballistic gel is available, although soaking wet phone books will give a decent indication of how good the expansion and penetration is. A nice feature of a cast bullet is that it is a homogenous bullet and has not the chance of copper jacket separation leading to poor ballistic performance. A large bore, fairly slow moving bullet has tremendous killing power (ten million buffalo just cannot be wrong). When the caliber is reduced (say to 30 caliber) velocity must be increased to make up the difference. 303Guy has commented elsewhere how it is indeed incredible how a given bullet moving more slowly can wind up penetrating substatially more than when it travels faster. You may recall hearing of jacketed bullets "blowing up" on the surface of big game when shot out of a Weatherby magnum but performing quite well when shot out of a standard rifle.

303Guy
08-15-2009, 05:02 PM
Would you like to cobble up a rough one?Great idea! Thanks.:drinks:

Something I discovered, I made my nose pour molds 'nose heavy' and real skinny at the base, the idea being to ensure that the pouring end - the nose - stays molten last. Well, fired boolits showed a differencial hardness, with the base being harder.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-010F.jpg

The line at which expansion stops coincides with the diameter step of the mold. (What looks like knurling is. It was knurled after seating and my 'waxy-lube' applied).

The mold.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-888F.jpg

rhead
08-15-2009, 05:13 PM
Dia X Dia X BHN = Dia X Dia X BHN . If you have a known sample you can calculate the unknown either way you get the dimple.

1874Sharps
08-15-2009, 06:27 PM
Hey 303Guy,

That is a most interesting spent bullet that you posted! Would you post a picture of the mold?

303Guy
08-15-2009, 07:21 PM
Hee hee! That was the mold.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-888F.jpg

Different? The little thingy is the pouring funnel which also happens to form a small hollow in the nose when it pulls the sprue off.

The other end of the moldwith G/C in place.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-889F.jpg

The hollow point (after dip lubing). The sprue remnant is what can be seen in the middle of the hollow.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-880F.jpg

1874Sharps
08-15-2009, 07:37 PM
303Guy,

Wahoo, too cool! That is the weirdest and most interesting mold I think I have ever seen! By the way, it must be in the wee hours of the morning in New Zealand. When do you ever sleep?!

Treetop
08-15-2009, 11:13 PM
Most impressive, 303guy!

303Guy
08-16-2009, 12:07 AM
Thanks.:mrgreen:

Actually, its daytime here. Upsidedown, but daytime!:mrgreen: It's now 4pm Sunday.

Hey, I just made myself a 'hardness tester' along the lines of what montana_charlie suggested and guess what? It works! I cannot give any values but it does detect the difference in hardness between the nose and tail of one of my boolits. There was no difference between the middle and the heel. Another boolit which should have been softer according to the alloy mix, came up as softer. I didn't use a ball. Instead I machined a 30° point (60° inclusive) and measuring is done with a digital vernier, measuring the width of the point above the indent. (By inserting the point into the indent). According to that measuring method, I got a 10% difference in reading between the nose and heel. I've no idea what that means in terms of actual hardness.

Southern Son
08-16-2009, 05:08 AM
Rhead, thanks for that, the 336's are going for about $1000.00 - $1250.00 down here and 2nd hand are not that much cheaper (and I do want to get a .35 cal, which don't ever turn up on the 2nd hand market). Before I buy I want to be sure that it will do what I want (a 225-250 grain PP at between 1500 - 2200fps).

Montana Charlie, that is just brilliant, I might have to make one. The only hardness meter I have seen over here was the Lee one, with the little magnifying glass in the tube, and it was about $100.00. Fooling around with PP in my .458WinMag at the moment and I don't know exactly what the alloy is for the last lot of boolits I used (actually, I have got NO idea of the exact alloy, I thought it was 50/50 clip on WW/stick on WW, but I made a mistake, and ended up with a whole lot of 20/1 Pb/Sn in the mix, too). If I can measure the hardness, I will be able to at least come close to copying the hardness, if not the actuall alloy.

montana_charlie
08-16-2009, 12:37 PM
it does detect the difference in hardness between the nose and tail of one of my boolits.

I didn't use a ball. Instead I machined a 30° point (60° inclusive)...
The tester I dreamed up was envisioned to be something you could carry along to the scrapyard to get a rough indication of what they have available.

If you need something capable of comparing the two ends of a single bullet, it would be much smaller in size...which might even require use of that point you ground on it.

But, I think a pointed slug might be a bit too much on something of the size I described...

CM

303Guy
08-16-2009, 02:29 PM
... a pointed slug might be a bit too much ...I did what was easiest at the time!:mrgreen: But I can russle up any shaped or style impactor. The tube I used is anodized aluminium (nothing less :mrgreen:) 24 inches long 3/4 inch OD. The pointed impactor requires a curved test surface to get a decent measurement. I am thinking of a semi-circular flat blade that would produce a large and easily measureable indent. A little experimenting will no doubt find the best 'yard tester'. I just happen to have the way to secure a ball bearing in the end of a rod - it does require a crimping die which is easily made. Thanks for the great idea! :drinks:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-224F.jpg