PP Bullets

[RMulhern]

What say you about these??

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/Bullets%20and%20Patches/th_IMG_0106_1.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/Bullets%20and%20Patches/?action=view&current=IMG_0106_1.jpg)

[303Guy]

Well, the 'thumbnail' pic is rather small so I zoomed it with photo editor but the resolution doesn't allow too much zooming. Still, they look pretty good! What are they?:roll:

[45 2.1]

Good series of pictures showing everything. I assume the patch was over the ogive and you were shooting BP with a bore sized patched boolit. The paper folds on the cupped base imprinted and there is some rounding on the base edge that looks non uniform. The sidewall of the boolit crumpled and distorted prior to obturation of the boolit, possibly letting the boolit get out of line with the bore/ or the base got out of square with the bore centerline and boolit centerline. Some of the noses are distorted, am unsure if this was contact with the snowbank or what. There are various circumferencial lines around the boolit, which really shouldn't be there, showing a possible crimp line. They weren't there before you patched it I assume. The retained patch material in the cupped base is an accuracy killer. What are you really asking here since you don't explain the methodology and circumstances.

Addition: After thinking a day about this, it would seem this is a test between a smooth bodied boolit versus a grooved body boolit. Note the two barely viewable dwgs ahead of the pictures. The rings left on some of the boolits would seem to be whats left after the boolit slugs up on the grooved versions. What would happen with a harder alloy is still unknown. The boolits appear to be very soft though.

[montana_charlie]

Well, the 'thumbnail' pic is rather small so I zoomed it...
Just click on the thumbnail and you will be taken to the hosting website. There, you can select 'full size' and get all the detail you need.

What say you about these??
The one on the right came out in the best condition, but it's a different bullet from the rest...isn't it?...more slender nose or harder alloy.

The circumferential grooves seem to be where the case mouth rim was, at the moment of firing. Does it correspond with your seating depth?

The rear of the bullet was obturating into the case mouth/chamber step void as the bullet passed through.
The step 'smeared' lead backward, creating the rippled texture.
Some of the ripples smeared over, and trapped, patch paper...which stayed with the bullet.

The one on the right came out clean, and the smearing is less intense. It also looks like it was seated less deep than the others.

How did I do?

CM

[Don McDowell]

:-D I'ld say you're spending to much time playin and not enough mowing lawns.:drinks:
Those out of the 50?

[HPT]

Would they be patched to bore dia shot in a gun chambered for groove dia or with brass that's too thin?

[Red River Rick]

"SNOWBANK"? Where is "HOT"! When did you move?


RRR

[303Guy]

Thanks, montana_charlie. I had no idea! I am in no position to judge but what you said sure seems to be so. To me anyway.

[Don McDowell]

Hollow based bullets ,alloy is to soft, collapsing the base, slumping the nose and trapping the patch in the base.
What kind of groups do they shoot?

[runfiverun]

i'd say whatever you done to the one on the right is where you need to start developing your tests.

[leftiye]

Red is right. I too suspect trickery. (Ya think this might shed some light on nose slump not happening?)

[Nrut]

"SNOWBANK"? Where is "HOT"! When did you move?
RRR

My first thought also RRR.....since when does it snow enough in Alabama to make a snowbank...eh?[smilie=1:

Maybe if you lose the cup base RM the paper wouldn't get trapped or stick...

[RMulhern]

Sorry guys....but I've been lately like a one-legged man at an *** kickin contest and I just haven't been ridin the PC much lately! OK...303 Guy says the photo is a little small so I can increase that pretty easy:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/Bullets%20and%20Patches/IMG_0106_1.jpg

This IS NOT nose slump; rather base enlargement where these bullets....as they went through the transition phase from end of case mouth to the entrance of bore!! As the bases enlarged in the 45 degree area betwixt the case mouth and the bore...they got blown out/enlarged and then as they entered the bore....they got swaged down again thereby stripping off the patch and leaving a portion of the patch attached into the cupped base! These were sent to me by a buddy that resides in 'cold country' and recovered these bullets after the snow melted! The 'fissures' you can observe about .200" or so up from the base are where the lead was swaged down upon bore entrance! The cupped base didn't have squat to do with part of the patches being left within the base in my opinion; rather the portion of the patch left in the base was because the patch became so deteriorated at 'swage down'.....the normal travel up the bore by a complete patch DID NOT occur because the majority of the patch was entirely behind the bullet during its travel toward the muzzle!

As for the accuracy thereof.....they would have done good to stay on an outhouse wall! And as for cupped bases.....I don't shoot plain flat-based bullets in PP anymore because I have found that the cupped based bullets are very accurate!:drinks: As for the dreaded little paper rings I was having previously shooting the Shiloh .45/110.....that's no longer a problem and accuracy couldn't be better! I solved that problem with a purchase of Rocky Mountain Cartridge cases with a wall thickness of .0165"! No sizing...just shoot, clean, prime, charge, seat a bullet and back to the range!:mrgreen::mrgreen:

Thanks for the reminder montana charlie!!:castmine::mrgreen:

[1874Sharps]

FPMIII,

Great and informative post. You have given me something to think about.

[RMulhern]

1874 Sharps

If you'll look closely at the 2nd bullet from the right.....you can see bits of the patch in the 'fissures' of the lead where it was deposited as it was stripped when it entered the bore because of the *** end being overly enlarged!

[303Guy]

Thanks for the thought provoking post, FPMIII. (And the enlarged picture! :mrgreen: ) My first thought was the patch was being pulled forward during seating. Could that be? I have wondered about the boolit base expanding and getting swaged down again and I did a test to that effect and it is so. Not always, mind you. Although, in my test the boolit seemed to obturate evenly and once past the throat/chamber transition. I don't know that. It just looks that way to me. I fired two boolits, with less and then more powder. The one with more powder had well defined rifling impressions while the other did not. Both castings were under groove size. I posted this under another thread. I'm afraid I have melted down the evidence!

[RMulhern]

303Guy

"My first thought was the patch was being pulled forward during seating. Could that be?"

No...that's not the case! I know the guy that shot these bullets and he shoots bore diameter as I do and I can assure you that the patch wasn't torn on chambering the round! And unless you have a rifle with a PP chamber I will have to disagree with you that in these modern chambered BPCR rifles that the base of the all-lead cast bullets aren't always enlarged and then swaged down again. What you need to do is order you a copy...if you can find a copy of The Bullets Flight by Franklin W. Mann and upon reading a few chapters....you'll discover that the explosion of blackpowder....read BLACKPOWDER....upon the base of the bullet will distort the base of the lead bullet to a degree about which I am speaking here.

[303Guy]

... that the base of the all-lead cast bullets aren't always enlarged ...I do accept that. We are talking slightly cross purposes - which is my fault since I just assumed you knew what I meant. I was thinking of smokeless loads. And I do accept your explanation of what happened to those samples - again my fault for not being clear![smilie=1:

I would love to have and read that book you mention. There is just one small problem - I don't read! Not that I can't read, it's just that I cannot concentrate past about two paragraghs! (Which is why I spend so much time learning from you folks - it's a live discussion with real people with real characters and real individual experiences and outlooks. It's not all bad. I get a great deal of enjoyment from it! :mrgreen: Which, by the way, is why I value you all so much! :drinks:)

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

When I first got into paper patching it was with the 45-70 Sharps. Initially I used smokeless since I had yet to be seduced by the Darkside and bought Montana Swaging's bore diameter cylindrical unpatched pure lead bullets. They shot very well and so I bought an RCBS paper patch mold in 45 caliber and started making the turn to the Darkside. It cast a similar bullet and after all, if it shot well with smokeless, would it not shoot well with BP? The answer was emphatically, "NO!" I started to read and search and talk to the mountain man subculture at the shooting club and began to learn the ways of black powder. Nowadays I have a custom made 520 grain mold that casts a bullet very similar to the original Sharps bullet (thank you Dr. Brent Danielson and his website). It is substantially undersize and has a generous six thousandths of an inch of taper. They shoot very well and put a stop to the "minute of outhouse" accuracy problem that I had with the bore size unpatched bullets. The mystery of years now may be solved as to why this was happening thanks to you in this post.

[303Guy]

FPMIII, I had one fired boolit that had the appearance of those you showed. It had what looked like a crease line in front of the case mouth area and it had ripples that resemble those on your samples but no paper tearing (Vellum patch). It gave the impression that the patch had been pushed forward on firing, before the boolit moved. The patch could just as easily have been damaged during seating - I just can't say for sure. (You would think I would have noticed damage during seating and vellum doesn't damage that easily). So now I am thinking the damage did actually occur on firing. But in my case the appearance was of the patch moving forward. I did not try to reproduce the effect, instead I made sure the patches were secure!

[RMulhern]

Hey guys....let me make something clear right here! Whatever I post....is info that I have learned from others whom have a helluva lot more experience than I do concerning PP shooting; and from observations that I have gleaned taking their info and applying it to practical range time. ALL of the info I give is based on BLACKPOWDER usage only! I have no experience shooting PP with smokeless....and have no desire to learn! To that end...I guess one would have to refer to me as one whom desires to do it the 'old way' for in the end it is truly a very rewarding experience! Nothing beats experience and I learned a long time ago that one of the smartest things that anyone can do....concerning entering into a new field of endeavor....is to listen to those that have already been down a long and hard road! Those that may read this know to whom I am speaking so there's no need to call any names! I can only say THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!:bigsmyl2::D

[montana_charlie]

I finally figured out how to recharge my wife's camera, so I took some pictures last night.
These are MY snowbank bullets, posted to compare details with those from FPMIII.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1209

The one on the left (#1) was fired from a clean barrel, and no fouling management was used for the subsequent shots. The last two were also somewhat difficult to chamber.

#1 clearly shows where the patch was positioned, and also indicates that the nose 'slumped' to a larger diameter...allowing the rifling to engrave ahead of the patch. There is no paper-grabbing damage to the rear shank, like Rick's.
(that little angled swirl is a casting flaw in a 'cull' bullet that was good enough for snowbank work.)
I believe the absence of shank damage is because my bullets are patched-to-groove (not to bore diameter), so they don't go through the heavy 'bump up & squeeze down' in the chamber step/freebore zone in the chamber, like the ones in Rick's picture.

#2 shows a faint horizontal line about two tenths below the paper edge. I can't decide if that is the case mouth (because the bullet obturated more) or a second imprint of the paper edge because the patch was getting telescoped downward by friction from fouling. There IS an area (starting in #2 and going through #3 and #4) which is where the folds of the crumpling patch were jammed into the lead.

In #3 and #4 (and I think have those two transposed) you see the front of the bullet is being heavily scarred by fouling, and the patch is shoved downward, allowing even the 'protected' area to be scarred, too.

I did have a .20" lube cookie under the bullet in these loads, but that did not keep fouling soft enough to prevent the damage you see.

Having learned from #1 that my (.930") patch width was a bit short, I increased it to 1 inch to produce this...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1210

If you stare at the fired bullet and the naked bullet long enough, you can convince yourself that you are able to see how much the nose 'bumped up' on firing.
(you can faintly see the same casting flaw in the naked bullet that exists in the #1 fired bullet.)

Next winter I will get to see how the changes I test during the summer actually look.

CM