The NYSP considers a new pistola

[Bret4207]

Last month we lost a young Trooper to gunfire. He pulled up cold on 2 bad guys who had just robbed a bank. Kid was probably thinking it was someone needing help or something. Anyway they opened up and he was hit but returned fire, God Bless him. He hit one guy 4 times with his Glock 9mm, the other guy once. The guy he hit 4 times then shot and killed him. Both the bad guys were caught.

Today I got a letter from our PBA stating there was a search on for a "better" sidearm. It'll be a Glock I'm sure and the contenders are the 40S+W, 45 ACP and 45 GAP. Yes Joe, at last your beloved 45 GAP may hit the big time. I could care less what it is but since there cost of re-arming over 4,000 guys would be a lot less if the present holsters and mag pouches were the same size I'm betting on the 40S+W, unless the 45 GAP can use the same gear too. I'm not too clear on that, but I'll bet Joe fills me in.

The important thing is that a bigger boolit makes a bigger hole and the bad guy leaks out faster with bigger holes in him. About time.

[StarMetal]

Well I tell ya....that really sucks the trooper hits the one guy 4 times and yet he goes on to slay the trooper. Makes you want to just step out of your squad car with a 12 shotgun and 00 buck...or a Thompson with a 100 round drums.

All the 45 gap is Bret is the top end of a 45acp Glock, different chamber of course, and the bottom end (frame) that has been shorten fore and aft wise in the grip dimension. I would say it would be close to a 40 S&W size wise.

Too bad police offficers can't select the weapon of personal choice, as long as it wasn't pittifully bad...like say a 32acp or 380. I'd pick a 45 acp...be hard to make my mind up if it would be a high capacity one or the good old 1911...probably the high capacity one.

You know, it shouldn't tak an officer's death to make a change of caliber and handgun. Whatya all still doing with a 9mm thought? Hasn't most the police in the nation switched to something bigger?

Joe

[Bret4207]

The story is that Glock was set to trade us even up for our used 17's and give us 40 S+W's with nmight sites, but a downstate politician figured Glock would sell the old guns to drug dealers and little kids. Thats why we're where we are.

[StarMetal]

That's a real shame what some butthole politician can do. Sorry to hear that Bret....that young officer may be alive today had he had a 40 S&W instead of that 9mm.

What's that jerk politician going to say this time when you DO get new pistols?

Joe

[OldBob]

Too bad our political animals in Albany didn't get off their dead azzes and do this sooner for you guys, I for one will consider it money well spent. Stay safe and thanks........

[versifier]

Sad news. One less good man for our side. I hope he didn't leave any kids. The name of the politician should be publicized to help prevent his reelection. Like they say, politicians and diapers need to be changed for the same reason.

[keeper89]

You guys really don't appreciate what it is like to live in New York State--imagine the worst egg headed liberal you can think of and magnify that image past infinity and you are nearly approaching the mindset of state government......hell, the new candidate for Lt. Governor (democrat of course) has been pushing to get a bill through the legislature that would REQUIRE shooting to wound (i.e. leg or arm shot) in the event that deadly physical force was used by a police or peace officer...this turd also has had a bill previously that would make it legal for a suspect to forcibly resist arrest.......thank your lucky stars you don't have to put up with this kind of bs--and in seven more years I plan on taking my retirement and getting the hell out of this state!:drinks:

[Bret4207]

Word has it the politician involved was none other than our beloved Sheldon Silver. I don't know that first hand, not being on speaking terms with Shelly, but it sounds about right. As for Atty Genl. Elliot Spitzers (Candidate for Gov)running mate, as soon as the word got out about the "shoot to wound" bill, which he introduced 2 years in a row, he pulled it, poste haste. Uncle George Pataki has been good to us Troops and did as well as anyone could post 9/11 (does anyone remember 9/11?), but his unending purchases of land for the State are running us into debt, closing off good timber land and turning more and more of Northern NY into nothing but a post card for the downstaters. (For those who care- Downstate is Orange,Putnam Rockland counties and south to NYC and Lung Island, Up State is north of downstate to around Warren and Saratoga counties, Central NY is east of Syracuse to Rochester and Western NY is west of there to PA. Northern NY is that area south of Canada, west of Lake Champlain, east of Lake Ontario and norht of the Lake George region. It encompasses the Adirondacks, St Lawrence and Black River Valleys. It's known for scenic vistas, unemployment, tourism, alcoholism, Lake Plaicid, drug use, and depression. Atty Gen'l Spitzer refered to Northern NY as Appalachia. Then we found out Appalacia is doing WAY better than us. He took it back).

I can retire in a year. I'd leave but where would I go that I could afford 342 acres of duck swamp, farm land, woods and rock? Plus I have my own private range. I just need to pay everyting off and go on disabilty, assuming I can fake an injury.....

[rbstern]

Bret, sorry to hear about the trooper.

Does your team wear vests? Do you know what caliber felled him?

[Scrounger]

[QUOTE=Tpr. Bret)
I can retire in a year. I'd leave but where would I go that I could afford 342 acres of duck swamp, farm land, woods and rock? Plus I have my own private range. I just need to pay everyting off and go on disabilty, assuming I can fake an injury.....[/QUOTE]

I know you're kidding but the popular "injury" in California was 'Stress'. Fear of getting shot, or of hurting someone, was the motivator; symptoms would be insomnia, impotence, weight loss (or gain), anything you and your shrink can come up with. And no one can prove you don't have it. Slam dunk.

[Rick Hodges]

Brett,

My condolences.

For what its worth: the glock 40S&W and 9mm holsters and ammo pouches are interchangable. While no handgun is a reliable one shot stopper, I firmly believe that 40cal+ is far superior to 38/9mm.

I'm a retired lawdog, after 25yrs. service in the Detroit metro area. I truly loved my job, but after 25 yrs. I couldn't put up with the politics, both inside and outside the department, any longer. My standing advice to anyone in the profession is don't stay a day longer than you have to. I've been retired for 6yrs. and it is one of the best decisions I ever made.

Hang in there brother.

Rick

[StarMetal]

I don't care much for NY...the main reason being New York City, the wacko Democrats... Charlie Schuma....and of course the ***** of Babylon...Hillary Clinton. Those two I named would have never gotten elected in the South. It still befuddles me how many folks got swayed by the Clintons.

Joe

[Bret4207]

The "South" has given us Lindsay Graham, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Albert Gore, Robert Bird and Lyndon Johnson .... I think Hillary could get elected, for a while at least, anywhere. It helps alot when the media never, ever says a bad word about you.

[Bret4207]

Not sure what they shot him with, and the vest only protects part of you. Best advice I was given was "That vest doesn't come with a big red S (Superman) on it". Remember that the vest is usually only rated to stop the cops bullets, not rifle fire. A heavy duty vest, like the LA Bank Robbers wore, is too heavy to actually wear day in/day out.

Rick- 19 years just a couple days ago. Thinking about an Investigators position for a few years. $$ is nice, but my ulcers have almost cleared up dealing with truckers who are pretty easy going guys. I'm not sure I want to get back into the criminal end of it. Gotta put in 3-4 more years. I hear you though.

[Scrounger]

Bret, when you're contemplating retirement, there are many factors to look at over and above the difference between what you're taking home now and what your retirement check would be. You'll be paying much less in taxes; if you're now paying a certain percentage of your income into your retirement account, that will stop. I was Federal so 7-1/2% of my check went into retirement. What I'm trying to say is to be sure to compare your retirement pay to your actual take home (without overtime), not your gross. The difference with me came out to about $6 an hour on a 40 hour weekly basis. Meaning if retirement pay wasn't enough, I could get any kind of full or part time job to equal my work pay. You can start a new career doing whatever you want to do, whenever and wherever you want to do it. And if you decide you don't like that job, you can easily quit and find another. Remember you don't have to make $20--$30 an hour now to get by. (Nice if you do find a job like that, though) Security guard? Package delivery? Greeter at WalMart or Home Depot? Get a job at the hardware store and work off your marker. Careful if they sell guns, though. I found myself going in debt about $200 a week working part time in a gun shop...Donut shop? (Had to throw that in) There's an idea! Start your own donut shop so all your old buddies can stop in for freebies...

[StarMetal]

The "South" has given us Lindsay Graham, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Albert Gore, Robert Bird and Lyndon Johnson .... I think Hillary could get elected, for a while at least, anywhere. It helps alot when the media never, ever says a bad word about you.

Funny you mentioned that. Al Gore is from Tennessee and when he ran he only carried 30 percent of his own state. Fact is those Democrat Southerners were voted in by the big Up North Democrat states....like Pa and Ny.

You know I'm right. The southern states don't have that much voting power.

Joe

[Bret4207]

You bred him.

[Bucks Owin]

I wonder if that BG would've absorbed 4 rds of 125 gr .357 and still been functioning?

I feel sad about the slain officer, wish he'd have carried something "better" than the pipsqueak 9mm to protect himself with...
A .45 is a step in the right direction.

Up the revolver IMHO

Dennis

[StarMetal]

And we got rid of him too. Arkansas got rid of the Clintons...now you gave them a home.

Joe

[13Echo]

Concerning Clinton. I remember the first time he ran I saw a bumper sticker from Arkansas; Vote for Clinton, Get him the Hell out of Arkansas.

Jerry Liles

[Scrounger]

They are voted in by ignoramus people who blindly vote Democrat without looking at the character and past history of the candidate. And that's just as stupid as the ignorant who elected Bush because they always blindly vote Republican no matter how poor a leader he would be. There is no difference in the parties and no difference in the standard bearers. The only system worse than a two party system is a one party system. The only real difference in our political parties are cosmetic, and for the most part, alleged.

[fatnhappy]

Trooper Andrew Sperr was killed with a .357 if it matters.
Unfortunately neither of the scumbags will come closer to the death penalty than when trooper Sperr put lead in them. You can thank the NY court of Squellers.


I'd like to see the NYSP armed with the .45 ACP, if for no other reason than my hunting buddy would square me away with the range brass.


http://bartolomeo.yourtribute.com/viewtribute.asp?fh=bartolomeo&mv=AndrewSperr.html

[StarMetal]

Art,

You are mostly right. I'll explain. Not that I like Bush OK? ALL the Democrats have done since they lost the White House is BASH Bush for EVERYTHING and ANYTHING....100 percent, not one iota of being Congressmen or Senates to help this country, but 100 percent effort to make Bush look bad and to bring him down. Now Dean, from Watergate fame, comes out and says the Democrats should censure Bush for what he's done on the wiretapping. They lost, face, get over it and get back to the job at hand...which is providing a government for the people.

You're right...they both are no good, but Republicans stoop low to about a 9.5 and Democrats stoop all the way to a 10. As far as I'm concerned there is evil behind everyone of the Democrats intentions and ideas. Example: This immigration thing. They are for letting them in, anmesty...why? One pure simple reason...VOTES. Ted Kennedy started this back in the late sixties with the intentions of securing more votes from them...because the Democrats go after the minorities for votes.

Folks I'm talking about the Democrats in Washington....not the Democrats among the people of this country.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Bret--

I am GLAD LIKE A DOG that I retired, and Rick Hodges summed up my justification very succinctly. The difference in take-home pay is almost nil, for reasons also stated herein--and might be a little ahead of the game, not having to do a 55 miles per day round trip. I damn sure don't miss the gridlocked freeways "to and from". Just short of 28 years was ENOUGH.

That "shoot to wound" crapola is quite symbolic of the complete sense of unreality that pervades the mindset of many politicos who express opinions and often develop policy for law enforcement agencies. Makes ya wonder what color the sky is in their world.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

The color of the sky to them is brown to dark because they have their heads stuck up their you know what.

I think law enforcement should be left alone to make their own decisions on how they enforce the laws and as to what equipment they use to do it...so long as they are not breaking the laws.

What's next...shoot to just wound for our military?

Joe

[Scrounger]

The Democrats may well want the vote.... but every single one of those illegals has a Republican employeer!!! The Repubs want them in as bad as the Demos. It is just like guns, abortion, and religion, if one party takes one side of the issue, the other party must and will take the other side. There's political donation money on both sides, and that is really all they care about. And if you really think the Republican Party doesn't want to disarm the public as much as the Demos do, then you have a big surprise coming down the road.

[StarMetal]

Well the government, any government, always want to disarm the people.

Here's something for you to ponder. There are illegals that have stolen SS card numbers. You've heard the stories of how to go about getting one. Anyways they file taxes on a fake SS number. Now...you know darn well the government knows where the number originally originated from. Yet the IRS takes the tax money if owed. Where does it go? I bet it doesn't go into the system being they know it's all fake and illegal. A friend and I were talking about this. They (the govt) don't want to go after an illegal stolen SS number because they are pocketing the money.

Joe

[Crash_Corrigan]

TPR. Bret: I retired from the NYCPD as a Lieutenant in '84 at the age of 41. I am now 63 and I am still collecting over 30K a year and getting my health and welfare stuff including Rx's taken care of. I am living in Las Vegas, NV where there is no income tax and the property taxes are very low because of the Casinos. There is no snow here. I work full time, but only 4 days a week for a slot operator and get to carry my Ruger P 90 .45 ACP with +P ammo. I carry 6 extra mags, 4 in 10 cap and 2 in 7. Over half of our guys carry two semi autos. I have been in a few firefights back in NYC and only once did I have to fire more than three shots. That one was a war and I needed more ammo. That is not going to happen again. IMHO GET OUT OF NY...SELL THE LAND...GET AWAY FROM HILLARY AND SCHUMER AND COME TO NEVADA. This area has the lowest unemployement in the country. Come out and forget NY it sucks. I know I lived there for 37 years.

[Bucks Owin]

They are voted in by ignoramus people who blindly vote Democrat without looking at the character and past history of the candidate. And that's just as stupid as the ignorant who elected Bush because they always blindly vote Republican no matter how poor a leader he would be. There is no difference in the parties and no difference in the standard bearers. The only system worse than a two party system is a one party system. The only real difference in our political parties are cosmetic, and for the most part, alleged.


I agree that the two parties are mostly equally bad with one BIG difference. The democratic party is the HOME of the antigunners and have their support. For that reason only, the dems will NEVER get a vote from me. As far as I'm concerned, any gunowner who votes dem is cutting his own throat....

2 centavos,

Dennis

(And even though I lean towards the libertarians, a vote for them is a vote the GOP DOESN'T get, so you may as well have voted democrat. As I see it anyway....)

[9.3X62AL]

We're veering toward politics here......but it's staying civil and well-mannered, so no harm/no foul. I've always been amused by the mass media pundits who offer opinions about low voter turnouts, and their claims of apathy that cause same. It's not apathy--it's a combination of disgust and surrender--sort of like, "Don't vote, it just encourages the ********."

[StarMetal]

Here's how to mess it up if Hillary runs. VP Cheney resigns . Mrs Rice steps up to the VP position, then she runs for 2008. That would put a nail in Hillary's coffin.

You all pay attention to Ted Kennedy when he's on TV. He can hardly walk and he can't make a speech now without good notes, or a telepromter, or a microphone in his ear getting instructions. He's OLD, out lived his purpose which there was none. Oh he did for awhile serve as a crash test driver for survivorbility of car occupants driving into a river.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=StarMetal]Here's how to mess it up if Hillary runs. VP Cheney resigns . Mrs Rice steps up to the VP position, then she runs for 2008. That would put a nail in Hillary's coffin.


Not a bad plan, at all. An added plus would be that VP Cheney would be available to sanction more lawyers while quail hunting, too. A win/win all around.

I can only imagine how one-sided a debate between Senator Clinton and SecState Rice would be.

[onceabull]

Oh My goodness,Allen: How little value you put on the NY Senator's education !!! ( as do I ) Onceabull

[nelson133]

I always vote the gun issue, and always have. Republican or Democrat is a meaningless label to me. If all candidates are good on the gun issue, then I look at other things. As far as the illegai immigrant issue, Bush is pushing his version of the "guest worker program", don't see a big difference in the final result.

[45 2.1]

Considering all that has went on since Ronnie Regan, it makes you wonder who our so called "representatives" are working for. It certainly doesn't look like they're working for us either.

[waksupi]

(And even though I lean towards the libertarians, a vote for them is a vote the GOP DOESN'T get, so you may as well have voted democrat. As I see it anyway....)[/quote]

As I see it, as long as the political parties, and the media, have the voters buffaloed, that voting third party is a wasted vote, then the third parties will never gain ground. So, we end up stuck with the same ol', same ol'.

[OldBob]

No wondering about it, they are working for themselves and their party line, they have little or no concern for us except to promise bread and circuses in exchange for votes. I wish a third party was a viable alternative, but it just takes a vote from the lesser of two evils as I see it. Sent an email to Senator Clinton today regarding the illegal immigrant situation and got back the most irritating, fence-straddling, piece of garbage reply you could imagine, I'm sure it will be followed tomorrow by a request for money to fight the good fight.......... at this point I'd just like to be able to vote for a politician with an honest opinion and a backbone.......
Waksupi, you may very well be right, I'll keep that thought for the next election and see what /who runs

[sundog]

Old Bob said, "No wondering about it, they are working for themselves and their party line, they have little or no concern for us except to promise bread and circuses in exchange for votes."

Well, Old Bob, you forgot one thing. You might be a whole lot closer if you had said, "... in exchange for votes and tax money"

Do I sound a bit cynical? Naw, how about pragmatic. The ******** are using OUR money to further the causes of whatever special interest group they prostitute themselves to and perpetuate their own little dynasty. Anybody remember the buxomous blond secretary on the Milton Berle Show? "It's bigger than both of us, Mr. Berle!" Man, was she ever right. sundog

[robertbank]

We all know bullet placement is everything. If that Trooper had hit the guy in the forehead with his 9MM the guy would be dead. Four rounds of .40 cal, .45acp or .45 GAP won't kill you any quicker if the rounds don't get to a vital area and death certainly won't be instant with any of the cartridges if the spinal chord or brain isn't hit.

Sat on a jury where a lady hit the BG with a 12 gauge shotgun. Took is arm off but sure didn't kill him and a 12 gauge is a lot bigger than any of the cartridges mentioned. Distance was about five inches. As a matter of interest a doctor testified the guy would not even had blead to death soon and that was with his arm fully shot off. No handgun is a death ray and pistol cartridges are relatively anemic compared to a shotgun/rifle.

Trust the officers family will be looked after. My thoughts are with his family.

Given todays bullets I doubt there is much to choose between the 9MM, .40 cal or any of the .45acp variants.

Take Care

[Blackwater]

Re Jimmy Carter, a LOT of us here in Ga. TRIED to tell people what he was like. Did any of that hit the media???? You KNOW the answer to THAT one! Even on the internet, all you'd hear was "... but he's a SOUTHERNER!!!" Believe me, there's a LOT of idjits here in the Southland. It all started with "reconstruction," but let's not get into that .... now at least ....

The @#$%^&* media ONLY puts out what it WANTS to, and Truth doesn't seem to have a lot to do with their decisions on that. This has a LOT to do with who gets elected, just as stated above, and it's a pitiful SHAME that there's so dang little value placed on Truth in the media. Any large populace gets pretty much what it'll tolerate in its politicians and other "public servants," which the media is .... or WAS .... SUPPOSED to be. People's tolerance for shoddy goods and workmanship has been gradually increasing for many years now, and I for one think that if we brought back tarring and feathering ..... but again, let's not get into THAT. Whizzes some folks off sumthin' AWFUL!

Would have likely saved that trooper's life, though, wouldn't it?

[Bucks Owin]

We all know bullet placement is everything. If that Trooper had hit the guy in the forehead with his 9MM the guy would be dead. Four rounds of .40 cal, .45acp or .45 GAP won't kill you any quicker if the rounds don't get to a vital area and death certainly won't be instant with any of the cartridges if the spinal chord or brain isn't hit.


I agree and for that matter a .22 LR in the forehead would probably have worked just as well!

Thing is, there are calibers that can be a lot more effective with an "iffy" hit than the 9mm and still take the BG down if not completely out. It's not that something like the 125 gr HP .357 is so much faster than a 9mm, but that bullet has flat out WORKED for years and I doubt there is anything more (if as) effective in 9mm loads....
(For that matter there are no flies on the 110 gr .38 Spl +P either)

I also have a notion that replacing the "outdated revolver" with the 9mm auto has done little more than turn a lot of officers into "spray and pray" shooters. The "hit ratio" has apparently not be helped with the advent of the self loaders! JMHO....

Personally, I feel a M19 stuffed with 125s is "gun enough" for me to defend me and mine with even though there are more powerful wheelguns in the cabinet....

Opinions "old school" lawmen? Was the switch a "fix for something that wasn't broke" in regard to the hicap 9mm?

Dennis

[9.3X62AL]

Dennis--

My agency added 9mm and 45 ACP self-loaders to the then-existing 38 Special (110 JHP +P) in June 1987. Loads used were the W-W Silvertips in both calibers, 115 grain and 185 grain JHP respectively. In 1994, we added the 40 S&W (180 grain SXT, excellent!) and changed to 9mm subsonic--large step backwards--and the 45 ACP/230 grain SXT, another excellent load. We also added the 357 Magnum, with W-W 158 grain JHP, since our body armor would contain these bullets but not the 125 grain JHP's.

In 1994, I stopped carrying the 9mm and went to the 357, retaining the 45 ACP right along since its adoption. I like the agency's ammo choices in 357, 40, and 45--I prefer 125 grain 9mm's going 1200 FPS+. Speer Lawman +P does this, and I now carry that load in my P-226 and P-228......1235 FPS and 1190 FPS respectively.

Had the 357 Magnum been adopted at the same time the 45 ACP and 9mm were approved, I likely would have only done an ammo upgrade. The bottom-feeders conceal a little more easily than the 686 x 4", but the 357 Magnum remains my favorite service caliber bar none. I still have the 686 "on paper" with the agency for my CCW, along with the 9mm. The 357 goes along with me far more often than does the 9mm. The 9mm as a service caliber is severely handicapped by the subsonic ammunition that most agencies now carry in these pistols, via FBI testing and recommendation. The M-882 service load ballistics--when fitted with a controlled expansion bullet--is pretty good ammo. The Speer Lawman ammo referenced above fits that description.

[Bucks Owin]

Thanks for the opinion and informative post Al. Kinda confirms my notions....

Best,

Dennis

[Maineboy]

I can retire in a year. I'd leave but where would I go that I could afford 342 acres of duck swamp, farm land, woods and rock? Plus I have my own private range. I just need to pay everyting off and go on disabilty, assuming I can fake an injury.....

Bret, There's still some real estate bargains to be had way up here in northern Maine. Just be warned there isn't much else up here.

[Dale53]

Snow, ice, and LONG, COLD, WINTERS!!:mrgreen:

Summer comes on Tuesday and is gone by Friday:-D :-D :-D

Dale53

[Maineboy]

Snow, ice, and LONG, COLD, WINTERS!!:mrgreen:

Summer comes on Tuesday and is gone by Friday:-D :-D :-D

Dale53
Geeze Dale, you're pretty knowledgeable. You from up here?

[Junior1942]

I can retire in a year. I'd leave but where would I go that I could afford 342 acres of duck swamp, farm land, woods and rock?

Trooper, I'm betting you could sell that 342 NY acres and buy about 1500 Louisiana acres. You'd have WAY more duck swamp, farm land, and woods. Very little rock, however. Your retirement check would go twice as far, too. Also, taxes on 1500 Louisiana rural acres would run maybe $1500 a year if you lived on it.

Re: 45 on bad guys. A bad guy jumped a cop in Baton Rouge recently after a traffic stop. The cop put a 357 round in the BG's belly. BG didn't even feel it, evidently. Along comes a bystander with a CCW permit and a 45 auto loaded with hardball. Blam, blam, blam, blam, the bystander put four 45 hardball rounds into the BG's torso. BG keeps trying to kill the cop as if the five rounds in his chest and belly were from a BB gun. So the bystander changes his point of aim and puts round #5 in the BG's head. End of fight. BG is dead, dead, dead.

But the fight really ain't over. The cop and the bystander are being investigated by the US Attorney General's Office and a local grand jury. They were white. BG was black--and drug free, by the way.

[9.3X62AL]

But the fight really ain't over. The cop and the bystander are being investigated by the US Attorney General's Office and a local grand jury. They were white. BG was black--and drug free, by the way.[/QUOTE]

What a farking mess. I'm so glad to be out of that business.

[Bret4207]

Well I'm back from Albany. Word so far is they like the 45GAP. Who knows what'll happen. As for the performance issue- some guys won't be stopped no matter what until you strike the central nervous system. I the case presented with my fellow Trooper, it would seem that 4 shots should have had a bit more effect than they did. If nothing else, this may get us something a bit more effective and help someone else down the line.

I have to apologize for getting the political thing going. I was yanking Joes chain and it snowballed. I'm in the "vote the rascals out" mindset. None of them are worth much.

While in Albany we hit some gunshops. Saw a lot of very expensive guns. Finally founs a more reasonable place and almost went for a sporterized Krag. Jsut too many $$$. I was rather taken with a Kel-tech 32 Auto. If I'd had my Bertta 25 with me I'd have traded right there. Saw no less than 5 S+W 45 Colt's, the m-25's I think. All around $625.00 and blue. Out of my league. The search for a 32 went poorly. 1 S+W Hand Ejector with a bad nickel finish and bobed barrel and a Colt Pocket Postive, both expensive and out of my reach. The hunt continues.

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

I know you were yanking my well worn chain, but it worked out pretty good this time. I also know that there are alot of good New Yorkers too.

Those two krags that were posted sure would be a nice shooting rifle for you Trp..and the prices were nice too...so far.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Latest news is the 45 GAP, 40 S+W and an "improved" 9mm round are in the field for "testing". So far the only complaints seem to be "there's only 11 rounds in the 45!!!!". The spray and pray Miami Vice mentality lives on....

[9.3X62AL]

Perhaps something belt-fed would be more to their liking. The biggest problem with the high-volume 9mm's has been the anemic ammunition carried in them.

Administrative myopia never ceases to amaze me.

[Bullshop]

Deputy Al
Could you do me a favor and talk a little more American and a little less English when ya talk. Sometimes I have the dangest time tryin ta figer out what it is you a sayin! Most times if I figer it out its notable stuff but man lots a them big long words I aint never heard affor. KISS I am feelin left out.
BIC/BS

[9.3X62AL]

Sorry about that, Bullshop!

Administrative myopia = short-sighted management types making idiot decisions.

Myopia is "near-sightedness", literally.

[Bullshop]

Thats OK Bud! I would like to order the D.A. unabridged dictionary sost I ken stay in the know. See I know how Buckshot feels with that Spanish fella. That guy must be sick wantin to do stuff to his sisters dog with an umbrella or sumpin. Some folk is just weard!!!
BIC/BS

[Bret4207]

When I think, I think in big words like Al uses. But since I cain't shpell big words it comes out in the moronic tones you see here. 'Sides, my key board don't have that many letters!

[9.3X62AL]

You guys are awful.......

[robertbank]

Just to add. The RCMP up here use 147 Gr Win SXT's. The round has been extensively tested. I shoot with these guys weekly. From what I can see from nailing water jugs these bullets are capable of doing a number on anyone.

Bullet placement is everything. Every time I read about an officer getting killed on the job the typical knee jerk reaction is to blame the firearm or ammo used by the officer. You can arm them with cannons but unless you provide ample training in defensive tactics and lots of practice ammo it seems to me what kind of gun you are given is rather moot.

From what I can see the RCMP are given all the ammo they need and then some, unfortunately while most practice, lots don't. Suspect it is the same way south of the border as well.


Take Care

[Bret4207]

100 rounds, twice a year. Twice if we can work out the scheduling and there's nothing heavy going on, like people flying planes into skyscapers.

I agree placement is vital. But, perfected placement with say a 22 short dosn't get you the same reaction as a 38 Special and that won't give the same as a 454 Casull. All were asking for is something that works good on deer ( the 9 doesn't) and that should give good results on bad guys.

[Scrounger]

[QUOTE=robertbank]Just to add. The RCMP up here use 147 Gr Win SXT's. The round has been extensively tested. I shoot with these guys weekly. From what I can see from nailing water jugs these bullets are capable of doing a number on anyone.

Bullet placement is everything. Every time I read about an officer getting killed on the job the typical knee jerk reaction is to blame the firearm or ammo used by the officer. You can arm them with cannons but unless you provide ample training in defensive tactics and lots of practice ammo it seems to me what kind of gun you are given is rather moot.

From what I can see the RCMP are given all the ammo they need and then some, unfortunately while most practice, lots don't. Suspect it is the same way south of the border as well.


Setting higher qualification standards is the answer; shoot well or look for a new job. I'm not a LEO but I sure wish this higher standards thing would be adopted by the various Motor Vehicle Departments. I would love to see them make everyone pass an actual driving test on the streets in actual driving speeds and conditions. I'd even say a fervent 'Thank You' if they'd pull all the incompetent old farts who drive 30 miles an hour when everyone else is doing 50. They can't hack it in the real world, pull their license. This is not an age prejudice, (I'm 65 and counting) it's a competency prejudice. Two weeks ago a 77 year old woman totally ignored a stop sign at a busy hiway crossing. Thank God she died, but she also killed a young woman and put her husband in the hospital with serious injuries he may have to deal with the rest of his life. On the other hand, it might have been better if the killer had lived and had to live with her sin for the rest of her life. GET THE OLD FARTS OFF THE ROAD!!!

[versifier]

GET THE OLD FARTS OFF THE ROAD!!!

While I do agree with you there, I think there are many more of all ages driving while running their mouths on cell phones who pose an equal if not greater danger by virtue of sheer numbers. I think it's driving to endanger and should be a chargable offense, not just when there's an accident. (My Car Talk bumpersticker reads "Drive now, talk later!")

But back to the thread,
Most departments don't issue enough practice ammo nor encourage it enough. As a result, a 9mm is all that most can control. That does not, however, guarantee that they can actually hit anything with it. It takes regular practice to keep one's edge with a 9mm, never mind if they upgrade to .40S&W, 10mm, .45Gap or ACP. If they get insufficient practice, it's all spray & pray no matter what they carry.

The local departments from surrounding towns and state police all "practice" once or twice a year at our club's range. Most are pitiful shots. I don't know how they manage to qualify. I shoot much better weak handed than the majority do with two hands, and I do not consider myself to be a good shot (I'd be embarassed to get on the line at a bullseye match). To a man, they are afraid of the recoil of their pistol grip 12G 870's, too. (Not that I blame them there - those suckers are brutal.) But if they actually have to use one, are they going to be worrying about dropping someone or about how much it's going to hurt when they pull the trigger?

My nephew, on the other hand, works for a department in the Peoples' Republik of Massachusetts where they issue unlimited ammo for their Glock 23's and REQUIRE a minimum of one range session per month. He can really shoot and says he's about average for his department. That's the way it should be everywhere.

[robertbank]

If all you get is 100 rds per year I suggest they could arm your department with just about any gun you want to name and the results would be the same. Scary really and a comment on how much value our politicians place on our/your safety. Damm shame, I hope for your own good you shoot more and practice tactical drills more than 100 rds per year would suggest.

I might go as far as saying the more powerful gun they give the department the worse the situation could get. One thing I have learned about shooting pistols is I personally shoot better with lighter recoiling cartridges. Not that I can't shoot well enough with heavy loaded .45's but clearly not nearly as well as I do with a K22.

Take Care

[Dale53]

I went to the OGCA Gunshow yesterday with a close friend. He is a retired Homicide Detective. Our hometown is about 70,000 in size and over the years had a shooting oriented police department. They were National Champions during one stretch. The shooting teams actually spanned two generations. My friend was one of the best PPC shots in the country. I asked him how the department is doing today. We have
an excellent police department but shooting is no longer a first priority. Mores the pity.

Most of the policemen from departments around here shouldn't be allowed in a room with a loaded gun. Typical shootout has ten or fifteen shots fired and maybe one hit (at close range). This is a terrible state of affairs. Most of the lack of training comes from the fact that city councils do NOT want to spend the money for ammo. It is just that simple. Of course, there is Cincinnati, Ohio, just down the pike, and the Administration can only be called "Anti Police" and coupled with lack of training, the police are not allowed to do their job. I would sure hate to be a policeman in that city. The late night news records a shooting nearly every night. Cincinnati is approaching 75-100 murders a year. Mostly drug related, I am sure. This horrible murder rate started with a riot that was NOT contained by the city's policemen (they were not allowed to contain it by the administration). Now, I don't think the policemen even care - they are not backed up by the administration and in fact, have been fired for shooting when most anyone would have fired.

We don't have THAT problem here, just a lack of funds allocated and the will (from the top) to have the men trained properly. They have wonderful facilities but just not enough time on the firing line. My retired policeman friend tells me that the "new" policemen do not like to shoot, in fact, they avoid shooting for practice whenever they can. He wonders what the devil they are doing being policemen. He considers it a responsibility, as a policemen, to learn to shoot and learn to shoot well. The confidence gained by being an excellent shot, in fact, often allows a policeman to "handle" a situation without gunfire.

Dale53

[StarMetal]

This isn't a reply to the original post , but to cell phone use. I'm still out on this one. Yes I get annoyed by those driving and talking on them and even have felt that some of them interfered with my driving because of their driving while talking. Okay...airline pilots, military combat pilot, helicopter pilots, astronauts, and many more other vehicle operators of some sort driving, fly, or operate something alot more complex, complicated, and dangerous then a car......while in constant communication. Please don't say well cell phone users don't have earphones and microphone for hands free, which are availiable. Say you have a hands free cell phone in your car, what's the difference on carrying on a conversation with someone on it and say a car load of passengers? Alot of people, while driving, look occassionally at the passenger they are talking too while driving. So that's why I'm still out on that issue. Passing a law against it is just another invasion of our rights. If they did pass a law would that affect motorcyclists who have true two way radios in their helmets?

Art, you touched on something dear to my heart. Old slow drivers..either male or female. I feel like you that they are a major cause of accidents. I have always said I'd like to start a Federal bureau for old age driver tests and I give them. First thing out we're out on the test and the driver is driving way below , way below speed limit. Yup, you're done sir/maam...back to the station please. I told my family when I become of that age and I drive like that, or even dangerously like Art reported about the old lady driving through a stop-sign, please take my license and keys away from me.

Joe

[Duckiller]

Pilots talk about where and how they are flying when they are in the air. People on cell phones talk about everything but driving. As a field supervisor I stopped taking and solving problems on a cell phone. I would take the call and inform the caller,usually a clerk calling for an inspector, that I would call them back as soon as I got to a safe place to stop. This was AFTER I drove for about 10 miles trying to solve a problem and realized I didn't remember what traffic laws,if any, I had broken. Driving deserves your undivided attention as does solving a work problem. Women should not be allowed to drive with cell phones. They get into their car in a crowded parking lot,make a call and try to drive out of the parking lot. cause all sorts of unnecessary traffic jams and ethinic slurs(So.Cal).

[Scrounger]

Pilots talk about where and how they are flying when they are in the air. People on cell phones talk about everything but driving. As a field supervisor I stopped taking and solving problems on a cell phone. I would take the call and inform the caller,usually a clerk calling for an inspector, that I would call them back as soon as I got to a safe place to stop. This was AFTER I drove for about 10 miles trying to solve a problem and realized I didn't remember what traffic laws,if any, I had broken. Driving deserves your undivided attention as does solving a work problem. Women should not be allowed to drive with cell phones. They get into their car in a crowded parking lot,make a call and try to drive out of the parking lot. cause all sorts of unnecessary traffic jams and ethinic slurs(So.Cal).

They also shouldn't be allowed to drive with their ratty kids in the car. It's so hard to drive right when you're turned around yelling into the back seat.

[robertbank]

A policeman dies in the line of duty, a discussion follows about the NY Police examining their options and you guys are going on about cell phones and driving...:roll:

Take Care

[Lee]

They like the .45GAP. Great. That's where they get their blue jeans too...GAP??
Hey I got it!...how about the .101 Spitball??
Or how about the .4493 Sumthin??
.442 GTO??
.426 Hemi??

Quit crappin' aroun' with every newfangled "designed ta part ya from yer money" cartridge that comes down the road.
Ya want a .45...get a .45
Pick a weapon that's worked for 75-100 years and stick with it. Period.
This new cartridge that butters toast crap makes me wanna puke.
My .02:)

[Tristan]

I'm sorry to hear about your brother in the force.

I hope that NY takes good care of this man's family.


Now, a question regarding the swap out for a new caliber handgun: if this officer's fatality brought to the forefront the need for a new, more effective caliber, why should be selection be bounded by what holsters you already have?

Wouldn't it seem more logical, that if the requirement is for a different side arm, select the most appropriate side arm/cartridge and then aquire the necessary accessories for it?

Like some others, I just don't get the politicos decision making process...

As far as the 45 GAP, as I understand it, the only advantage this cartridge has it that the grip of a handgun can be made slightly smaller while retaining a double-stack profile magazine, which may allow better control for those with smaller than average hands. Is this the determining factor?

[Bret4207]

As to WHY the GAP and not the 45, all I can say is it's probably the "size" issue since we're hiring midgits these days. Yup, the full size 45 would suit me fine. I went to the range yesterday and was selected to run the "test" course. Both my partner and I liked the 45 better than the 40S+W. It balances better, has less percived recoil and my score was only 2 points below my 9mm score. The new guns had the molded finger grips and were still "slick" so my point of impact was different. The grip feels somewhat smaller and there seemed to be plenty of rounds as far as I was concerned. What they end up choosing will be a decision made by those far above my lowly status.

As for the "why would they choose a gun based on holsters/money?" "Cuz it all comes out of the general fund and people don't like higher taxes to re-equip 4500 guys with new leather when the old stuff would work with the 40 S+W. It's an economic fact of life. I understand it.

On the "flavor of the month cartrige", yup, I know. But the brass watches "Cops" and the other TV shows and reads the advertisments. I don't care if they give me a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 mag or a SIG 357 or a Glock 45ACP. Just give me something with a little more "ooomph!" than the 9.

Cell phones and old farts- NY has a cell phone law. Nothing gets me madder than a cop talking on his cell while driving. For some reason they think no one else notices. DUMB! Old folks, well they gotta get to the store/Doctors/Bingo. Someone comes up with a workable answer I suggest they patent it and run for Emporer as you are way brighter than most elected officials.

[Scrounger]

Sorry, Bret, I see it this way: There are laws on the books about driving dangerously (that doesn't always mean fast), obstructing traffic etc. I think it is the respobsibility of the law enforcement community to enforce them and remove dangerous drivers, no matter how old they are. Now I know what you'll say, and it's true; your bosses will tell you not to do it. Because the politicians will be telling them to not do it. As usual the politicians will be listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise. So I don't blame you guys, your hands are tied. Maybe Brain's right, us mice should take over the world.

[HTRN]

As a life long NYC resident, I can confirm that this city screws up the entire state politically, as people here are basically sheep led around by NYS democratic party. That's what happens when you have an ignorant electorate, with half the states population in one tiny area. A similar situation exists in Washington and Oregon, very conservative outside the two major cities(Seattle and Portland), which are a small fraction of the state in terms of area, but between hippy brainwashing and a large population, it screws up the entire state.

And Starmetal, don't be blaming Pennsylvania for Al Gore - last election, only 10 counties went blue - you may note that they were Counties that had Erie(good union men:roll: )Pittsburgh(ditto) and of course Philadelphia. Also Scranton/Wilkes Barr went very "light blue" because the whole are is rife with colleges and universities, and we all know what enlightened minds occupy them.:mrgreen:

You might be interested to know that PA is shall issue, is filled with Ranges(hell, Williamsport has a 1000 yard range!), and is Class III friendly.

I'm trying to get the hell out of here, and move to the Pocono's, where an honest man can afford a decent house, breathe clean air, and put a 4000 sq foot CNC machine shop in his backyard![smilie=w:


HTRN

[StarMetal]

HTRN

Yes, Pa is a real big gun state and real big hunting state. It ranks very high near the top in whitetail deer hunting and deer population. When I lived in Pa it was never a problem to find a place to shoot or to hunt.

I have to laugh. In Gore's home state of Tn he only got 30 percent of the vote. Living down here I come to find out alot of Tennessean's don't care for him.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Sorry, Bret, I see it this way: There are laws on the books about driving dangerously (that doesn't always mean fast), obstructing traffic etc. I think it is the respobsibility of the law enforcement community to enforce them and remove dangerous drivers, no matter how old they are. Now I know what you'll say, and it's true; your bosses will tell you not to do it. Because the politicians will be telling them to not do it. As usual the politicians will be listening to a vocal minority simply because they make the most noise. So I don't blame you guys, your hands are tied. Maybe Brain's right, us mice should take over the world.

Scounger- Quite the opposite is true. They WANT us to do what is called a"driver improvement form" on the gray hairs that don't belong on the road. The NYS DMV then calls them in for review and most I've seen lose their license. It's unpleasant, but necessary. I'd just feel better knowing they had someone to help them out, to get to the places they need to get, and to have some freedom in their old age that loosing the license takes away. Call me a softy, but up here in rural NY getting around means traveling 15-75 miles or more. It becomes an real issue. Wish I had a real answer.

Truth be told on an average day I'll bet there between 30 and 60% of the people out there who shouldn't be driving, around other folks at least, due to personal problems, cell phones, booze, medication and my favorite- the cranial/rectal inversion. Yup, diving with your head up your ***. THAT is the #1 cause of accidents in my book.

[Bucks Owin]

Scounger- Quite the opposite is true. They WANT us to do what is called a"driver improvement form" on the gray hairs that don't belong on the road. The NYS DMV then calls them in for review and most I've seen lose their license. It's unpleasant, but necessary. I'd just feel better knowing they had someone to help them out, to get to the places they need to get, and to have some freedom in their old age that loosing the license takes away. Call me a softy, but up here in rural NY getting around means traveling 15-75 miles or more. It becomes an real issue. Wish I had a real answer.

Truth be told on an average day I'll bet there between 30 and 60% of the people out there who shouldn't be driving, around other folks at least, due to personal problems, cell phones, booze, medication and my favorite- the cranial/rectal inversion. Yup, diving with your head up your ***. THAT is the #1 cause of accidents in my book.


LOL.....Yep, the "blue hairs" as we pro drivers call 'em! I've saved dozens of them from themselves when I still drove truck. A blue hair with his new 25' motorhome with mama blue hair giving directions.....YIKES!!!!

Back to the topic, I'm interested if you would feel adequately armed with a "stone age" wheelgun like a 4" M19 (or equivilent) as a duty weapon? Those who are "recoil challenged" could load 110 gr .38 +P and you could carry full tilt 125 gr HP?
This is no doubt a "pipe dream" as far as implimentation (sp?) goes but I'd like YOUR opinion as a working cop.....Is the wheel gun better off dead and buried?

Thank you for your service,

Dennis

[Dale53]

I am a "Certified Old Fart". I also spent 30 years as an Insurance Adjuster investigating auto accidents (about half of my business was autos the rest Commercial Industrial Facilities). The problem is not young people, not old people, but incompetent drivers. Believe me, they come in ALL flavors. We turn youngsters loose at age 16 with hardly any training whatsoever and then complain when they screw up. They flat don't know any better. No one has taught them how to control a skid, how to brake under stress, and many other skills they need before they are turned loose.
I spent some time in Germany, and the driver skill level is MUCH higher. I checked it out and found out that each new driver has to pay for serious driver training from his own pocket (ten years ago it cost from $1000-$2000 dollars. I was also told that almost NO ONE passes the drivers test the first time. They actually have to take a REAL driving test with serious skill requirements. As a result, the driver quality is MUCH, MUCH higher.

Until we take driving seriously, we are going to continue to have fatal accidents in large numbers that are actually solvable.

Rant over...

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

I am a "Certified Old Fart". I also spent 30 years as an Insurance Adjuster investigating auto accidents (about half of my business was autos the rest Commercial Industrial Facilities). The problem is not young people, not old people, but incompetent drivers. Believe me, they come in ALL flavors. We turn youngsters loose at age 16 with hardly any training whatsoever and then complain when they screw up. They flat don't know any better. No one has taught them how to control a skid, how to brake under stress, and many other skills they need before they are turned loose.
I spent some time in Germany, and the driver skill level is MUCH higher. I checked it out and found out that each new driver has to pay for serious driver training from his own pocket (ten years ago it cost from $1000-$2000 dollars. I was also told that almost NO ONE passes the drivers test the first time. They actually have to take a REAL driving test with serious skill requirements. As a result, the driver quality is MUCH, MUCH higher.

Until we take driving seriously, we are going to continue to have fatal accidents in large numbers that are actually solvable.

Rant over...

Dale53


That's a good rant too! Maybe the "autobahn" is the reason for the better training? I agree that 16 yr olds here treat the interstate as an "autobahn" too often and it's sad to see them dying by the thousands....

"Driver's Ed" is NOT getting the job done....

Dennis

1M accident free miles professionally....

[Dale53]

"Driver's Ed" is a joke. Driver's Ed should be equivalent to a week at Bob Bondurant's School of Driving. THEN we would have something. Let the kids pay for it themselves. They would then appreciate the course and actually have some skill when they hit the road.

Dale53

[Bret4207]

Dennis- For me, in my current position stomping on truckers (HAH!), the revolter with 158 SP (what we used to carry) would be fine. For the kiddies the whole psycological (sp) issue of only having 6 rounds in the gun and 12 more on the belt might not work. But then, I was brought up on Bill Jordon, Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith. I don't have it in my head that I "need" 50 rounds or that if I'm ever so unlucky as to have to shoot at someone ( been close, but haven't had to yet!)that I'll have to reload multiple times. Until recently you never heard of shootings with 30-50 rounds bouncing around. It was always 3-5 rounds between the good guys and bad. Most shootings were under 7 yards, or so we were told. Anymore it seems both good guys and bad are unloading everything the have, as fast as they can. The revolver has a limited capacity and I think that knowing that, people will tend to at least try and make their shots count. We used to learn hip shooting and the double tap system. At hip shooting ranges, under 15 yards or so, the double tap worked well as your first shot often went a little low and your second shot often was a little higher. We're talking 3-4 inches difference. Now we don't even teach hip shooting which makes no sense to me since we have so many more rounds at our disposal. Why they don't teach a hip shot or 2 followed by the gun coming up to line of sight is beyond me. Probably scared the guys will shoot themselves in the off hand. We also used to shoot at 50 yards, single action, off hand and barricade. Now we start at 25 yards. They only shoot the shotgun at 50 yards of less! What this teaches is beyond me. At 25 yards a lot of kids have trouble keeping them on the target. The NY trigger in the Glock (an answer to a non-existant problem) makes things even harder. So we handicap them with a heavy trigger and then teach them that at over 25 yards they may as well hunt cover and hide. I'm sure there's reams of paper backing the ideas up, but for me it makes little sense.

I'd be ok with a 357 or 41/44/45 revolver or auto. I'd also like a rifle, but thats too much training we're told. We almost got Ruger 9mm rifles a few years back until someone noticed Glock mags don't fit. A good idea died aborning.

All this means little as the decisions aren't made at my level. And, as I was told at the range the other day- "You're the only guy here, range instructors included, that ever even carried a 357!" I guess I've achieved dinosaur status.

[lastmanout]

Always a sad thing when the good guy gets shot. All the more reason to train and equip the troops with good stuff. I see a lot of bad press on the 45 GAP in the Glock pistol. Well, I traded into one a few months ago- a model 37. Was ready to try something new. Well...... I AM impressed with the little pistol. Shoots my lead boolits REALLY well. At 20yards 2-3" groups are very common- slow fire and offhand !!! Recoil ain't bad and it fits my smaller hands better than the many 1911's I have owned (5). Easy to shoot, easy to clean, easier to pack than my revolvers and 1911, and I am not tempted to customize it like my 1911's! My Chrony says the velocity is 850fps- thats pretty close to a 45ACP. I still have a 45 ACP revolver and the 45ACP is grand cartridge, but don't discount the 45GAP a great duty weapon. I would feel better with a 45 caliber anything in my holster verses a 9MM with round nose FMJ.

[Tigger]

Dennis- For me, in my current position stomping on truckers (HAH!),

Trooper Bret; Just be nice to a guy in a black Peterbilt running around Western NY with TIGGER on his jacket. Thanks:wink:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI Versifier has it right, diapers & politicans often are full of ****. poltical correctness hogtied my dept. to the 38 special.
Sorry to hear about your officers death.

[Bret4207]

Tigger, If you ever get up around Gouverneur, Canton, Potsdam, Ogdensburg give a shout on the CB and find out where the DOT Troops are. If you get a chance stop and say hello. Just make sure yer log's up to date! "The Policeman has no friends, only aquaintences". HAR!!!! Honest, I'll buy the coffee.

[Tigger]

I get up that way once in awhile. I'll look you up. Been driving for 15 years and have not had a log book ticket yet. :-D

[Bret4207]

It appears the 45 GAP has won the race. As to when we'll get them- "soon". Thats NYSP-speak for maybe next week, maybe never. At least it's something to give you a bit of hope. Mind you, we're still waiting for the re-mounts to arrive from the Cavalry on the next steam train into town.......

[Bret4207]

So- After "The Biggest Manhunt In New York State History" some one figured out the reason all the Troopers chasing the rifle weilding cop killer were standing around with non-issue AR's, Mini 14's, CETME's, HK91's and in my case a ratty old #4 L-E, was because we aren't issued rifles! Amazing! So the PBA is pushing for a complete investigation by an outside agency to pick our methods and equipment apart and see where the screw ups occurred. MAybe they'll finally come to the conclusion that covering your butt ( The States liability mindset) has limits.

The thought occurrs that we don't need "sniper/assault" rifles. Let us buy an approved long gun- bolt/lever/semi/pump- and those who pony up the bucks can qualify with our own gun. Those who don't want one can do without. Even that little folding Kel-tek 9mm was looking pretty good to me on the road blocks.

Time will tell.

[bruce drake]

Bret,

Remington Woodsmaster may be a solution. Pump rifle, magazine feed and you can have a 308 Win for range and penetration.

Not many people can work bolt rifles swiftly anymore but the Troopers would have a common training base off your shotguns when it comes to cycling the rifle.

I still think your Lee-Enfield #4 would be a good final solution for Mr Phillips.

Bruce

[robertbank]

Sounds to me Homeland Security might be better off buying you guys decent rifles instead of encouraging the Senate to build a fense across 4,000 odd miles of border along the 49th to keep us heathens out or you heathens in.:mrgreen:

Ah you got to love some of the elected members from the deep south. I liked the Senator from Vermount yesterday who called the idea the bigest bone headed idea to ever hit the floor of the Senate.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

Bret, I think one of the best articles Jeff Cooper ever wrote was describing the ideal assault rifle. 30 cal min, capable of 6 rapid aimed shots, 200 yard accuracy and 180 gr bullet capability. Then he says of course I am describing the 30-30 winchester. While it can't be broken down as fast as a shotgun, it does make a handy carring package. Gianni.

[StarMetal]

Mt Gianni,

I too read that article by Mr Cooper and that's exactly what he said, except he stated for the magazine tube getting dented which put's it out of action as a repeater. But you're right, an awesome assault rifle otherwise, just that it got passed up by all the new flashy semi-auto gizmos.

Joe

[bruce drake]

This is the rifle I was suggesting. THey also offer a carbine version that would probably fit the rifle racks in your police cruiser better.

Bruce

[C1PNR]

Even that little folding Kel-tek 9mm was looking pretty good to me on the road blocks.

Time will tell.
There is absolutely nothing funny about being on a road block. I will say, though, that your comment reminded me of an incident about 30 or so years ago, maybe even longer.

A good friend of mine was a brand new Deputy in Boise County, Idaho, a decidedly back country place back then. He called me one day and asked to borrow one of my bayonets. I said sure and then he told me why.

There was some nasty business going down on one of the back roads that weekend and he was detailed to his first road block duty. In those days the Deputies all provided their own weapons and his duty sidearm was a Colt .45 SAA. He usually carried an 1894 Winchester 30-30 as his long gun, but for this detail he took along his 1897 Winchester Riot Gun, for which he wanted to borrow my bayonet.

It all turned out fine with someone else apprehending the BGs, but he was a real hit with that bayonet mounted on the '97 standing in plain view at that road block. He also told me later that he really did feel better with that long blade out front. It took me quite a while to regain possession of that bayonet, too!

I sure hope the State of New York gets it figured out.

[Bigjohn]

It is a tradgedy when an officer has to die in the line of duty before someone will get off their collective backsides to do something about it and then it will only happen because their insurers will raise the premium if they don't do something.

In what I have read in this thread on this subject, if you change the names to those who are meant to represent us downunder, the story would not be out of place here. We aussies appear to be graced with the same type politicians.
Our two party system is filled with the same ilk on both sides of the policy divide; in other words they both want to disarm the public in the name of public safety.

There are approximately 535 members in the Australian Parliament in Canberra; allegedly, 36 have been accused of spousal abuse; 7 have been arrested for fraud; 19 have been accused of writting bad checks; 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses; 3 have done time for assault; 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit; 14 have been arrested on drug related charges; 8 have been arrested for shoplifting; 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits; 84 have been arrested for drunk driving, in the last year.
The above information is already posted on the net.
These are the sort of people who make the decisions which effect what I am allowed to do, what the officer on the beat is allowed to do with a BG.

As one of the signature lines on this web forum says; QUOTE "What is it that you intend to do which you can not do until I am disarmed."

Training of the LEO's must also feature in this somewhere; in South Australia where I live Security Officers must pass a qualification test each year, I know I do it; the LEO's may if lucky get to fire 24 rounds per annum in training.

Some years back, our club hosted a shoot between us and the local LEO's; unfortunately our worst five beat their best five and they never came back for another match.
In my eyes it is a sad case of affairs.

I do not vote for the major parties here and we have a Shooters Party in NSW so guess who gets my vote.

OK, thats my rant and if the moderators believe I have put anything in that I should not have, then please let me know.

:drinks:

John

[Bret4207]

It would interesting to have a cadre full of really good shots in the NYSP, but we have other needs too. So it's the same about everywhere, most cops aren't rabid shooters. And, despite all the shooting games, there isn't a shooting sport out there that duplicates you shooting while someone else is making a determined effort to kill you. All the training in the world can't fix that problem. Some guys just freeze, others close their eyes, some make out fine. Hard to say what will happen 'till the excrement hits the fan. More training is good, but it takes time and $$$$ and thats a problem everywhere.

As to the Woodsmaster- great idea, too big for a Troop car, too much recoil for the "challenged", no "cool" factor. Be fine for me.

The NYSP HAD Winchester '94 x 30-30's and '17 Enfields 'till the '50's. They're long gone boys. Even in the 50's they had no "cool" factor, just like the Colt New Service 45's we carried. We wemt to 38's and got rid of the 45/30-30/30-'06. And here we are going back to a 45. Figures.

I can shout advice all day long and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to the brass.You have to have a study, industry input, a board convienved to study the study, and then budget has to take a look at it all, and even then it's a toss up as to whether the "cool" factor or common sense will win out. Oh yeah, and we gotta see what the FBI says, which lead us to use the dismal 9mm subsonic FBI load, which was "cool", but ineffective. Kinda like a certain Federal agency I won't name...

[9.3X62AL]

Big John--yer fine, sir--well within limits.

Bret--you nailed it on caliber/platform choices by admin types, and with the Famous But Incompetent 9mm SubSonic bill of goods that LEOs got sold in the late 1980's.

Gotta catch a plane, or I'd rant further.

[StarMetal]

Well, supposely alot of police departments are going to the 6.8 Remington in the AR15. I believe it to have most the factors mentioned...low recoil, hard hitting (certainly more then the 5.56) small package, cool factor, etc. I'm highly concidering an upper for my AR15. Maybe if Jack O'Conner was still alive he would endorse it, after all it's a 270.

Why don't they get the brass out with you fellows who actually will be armed with these new weapons and get to shoot all of them, that is the ones you suggest and the ones they want you to have. Might change their opinions instead of dictating what you should have from their office chairs. Tell them they are part of the police department and to get involved, to make a different, set a trend perhaps.

I'm amazed the NY State Police Dept doesn't supply their men with all the equipment need, one of the most vital in fact. Geez, that would be like you had to use your own personal cars and buy Motorola walkie talkies.

Comon Hillary, you want to do something good for NY, get the State Police equipped with what they need.

Joe

[44man]

Have any of you ever wondered why some liberals want to ban guns? Could it be because they are afraid of being shot while doing the crime?

[Scrounger]

Coincidentally, this relevant photo was in the local paper yesterday...

http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2006/Sep-22-Fri-2006/news/9803139.html

[robertbank]

Reading this from the other side of the 49th I am dismayed though not surprised. It boggles my mine that in the US there are places where officers have to buy their own weapons, have little or no formal training (Picture above could be Billy Bob and Jethro out for a day at the range).

While individuals may or may not be the best shooters in the world by a long shot from my experience RCMP officers do not lack either weapons or sufficient practice ammo (read darn near unlimited from what I can see). Much more so since 9-11, then before. Obviously all officers are not inclined to or may not be required to be outstanding shooters but If this country can afford it so can the the various levels of government in the States.

Maybe it is time the various Police Associations shamed the politicians into action.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Another joke, the M16, hide behind a tree or a block wall and be safe. (The M1 would shoot through 2 feet of green oak.) Another advantage to the bad guy! Shoot 1000 more bullets because they are easier to carry, but don't kill anything with the whole batch.
I would rather have one shot from the M1 then 100 from that stupid toy.
The 9mm was a favorite of the Germans and great for point blank head shots on unarmed civilians. Better off with a .22!

[bruce drake]

The current 62gr FMJ has a Tungsten Core pentrator. It will punch through cinderblock walls as I did it a couple of times in Iraq when I needed to ventilate a Mahdi Militia member who had ducked down behind a wall for cover. When you deal with a small bullet you need to know how and where to shoot. Sort of like the old deer poachers with their 32-20s and 22 Magnums.

Bruce

[StarMetal]

44man

I use to think the same as you on those military rifles. It has to do more then with power and penetration today. The experts have this all figured out and I can't explain it but something like you take a squad of few men with M16's and larger squad with M14's the M16's squad actually has more firepower because of the bigger amount of ammo they can carry. Also too the enemy is pretty much the same, heck the Russian went from the 7.62x39 to that round necked down slightly smaller then 22, a 5.45x39. So it's not like very much of anyone is still using giant rounds like the 30-06 or 8x57 Mauser. Yeah I know some of those Afghanistans are still using some ancient rounds, but they also are using alot of RPGs. Its like the story my best friend gave me, you are in one foxhole and German in another, both with bolt action rifles, and you're doing the pop up shoot, duck down, while the other fellow is doing the same back. He said now suppose I had a high capacity semi-auto rifle and I waited till the german shot and ducked, then I started shooting and get out of the foxhole and walked towards the germans foxhole still shooting while he's still hunkering down and just walk right up and shoot him. Made sense. There are advantages in firepower, it's all doesn't boil down to who has the most powerful round.

Another thing don't sell a M16 short with moderm and updated ammo. You better believe the bullets mentioned will punch through a cinderblock and as much as the 308 crowd doesn't like to hear it a M16 round will penetrate a Swedish helmet at a further distance then a 308 will, much further.

Joe

[keeper89]

Have to add this.......a number of years ago, new bulletproof glass was being installed in a console area of Great Meadow Prison. A few of the panes were just slightly oversized and developed small pressure cracks when secured in the frames. Since the panes were replaced and the old ones were going to the dump, I requested permission to take a couple of them home. (I would guess they are probably 5 by 4.5 fees in size) I shot them with 38, 357, 44, 280 rem and 30-06. All left star patterns and did NOT penetrate beyond the first lamination of the glass. The only thing I had that did fully penetrate the pane was 223 ball out of a 26 inch heavy barrel Savage 112. I don''t know about anyone else but it sure made me go HMMMMMMM!:twisted:

[keeper89]

Have to add this.......a number of years ago, new bulletproof glass was being installed in a console area of Great Meadow Prison. A few of the panes were just slightly oversized and developed small pressure cracks when secured in the frames. Since the panes were replaced and the old ones were going to the dump, I requested permission to take a couple of them home. (I would guess they are probably 3 by 4.5 feet in size) I shot them with 38, 357, 44, 280 rem and 30-06. All left star patterns and did NOT penetrate beyond the first lamination of the glass. The only thing I had that did fully penetrate the pane was 223 ball out of a 26 inch heavy barrel Savage 112. I don''t know about anyone else but it sure made me go HMMMMMMM!:twisted:

[robertbank]

Seems to me I read similar comments when US went from 30-06 to .7.62 in all the gun rags. Joe said it best just comes down to firepower. So too with the 9MM vs the .45acp.

Seems to me I read where 9MM FMJ wouuld penetrate Steel helmets in WW11. Not that a pistol is all that important on todays battlefield with other options available.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Keeper,

I bet you had a time lifting that piece of glass to take it home. I use work in the aluminum glass construction and done a few bullet proof glass jobs, boy that stuff sure is heavy.

I'm impressed your 223 was the best too, I would have never thought that.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Ah, Great Meadows/Comstock. Had relatives and friends that worked/work there. Didn't Al Capone die of the clap there?

At any rate, the "PROBLEM" has been taken public. The press loves it when they can watch the Union fight with the State/Brass. Maybe something good will come of it.

BTW- Governer and Presidential hopefull Pataki has decided when we get the 45's he's going to melt all 4700 Glock 17 we'll turn in. Seems a waste to me. $$$$$$$ Something to consider if he ever gets up on the national roster.

[bruce drake]

:mad: :mad: Maybe Governor Pataki should lessen the Handgun Permit Restrictions for the soldiers here at 10th Mountain. I know I'd buy a couple off the state if I didn't have to track down aquaintances that I've known for five years and ask them for notarized character references on my pistol permit application. THat's difficult when half my friends are currently overseas fighting. You would think a man with a Security Clearance vetted by the FBI would be exempted from this state's draconian handgun laws.

And don't get me started on having to import the pistols I already own into the state through a state FFL. $30 per pistol from the store plus $5 per pistol to be added to the base permit cost of $135 adds up dang quick. Oh, and the Judge here in Jefferson County is currently averaging 5 1/2 months per application.

My Dad in Maine is holding my pistol collection for the foreseeable future until I invest enough time in the People's Republic of New York to justify the expense and aggravation of a handgun permit. In the meantime, I've got a 12 guage Remington 870 should I or my wife ever have to defend our new home.

Bruce

[fatnhappy]

BTW- Governer and Presidential hopefull Pataki has decided when we get the 45's he's going to melt all 4700 Glock 17 we'll turn in. Seems a waste to me. $$$$$$$ Something to consider if he ever gets up on the national roster.



Pataki, won't be Govenor by then. I wouldn't be suprised if the new sheriff in town, Elliot Spitzer allows them for sale to troopers or other police agencies. If anything, he's frugal. The links below are the straws that broke the camels back.

http://www.rnews.com/Story_2004.cfm?ID=42341&rnews_story_type=18&category=10

http://www.rnews.com/Story_2004.cfm?ID=42340&rnews_story_type=18&category=10

[Bret4207]

I kind of doubt Mr. Spitzer is going to be any friend of gun owners. He is however the lesser of 2 evils as his former opponent Mr. Suozi was rabidly anti-gun.

BD- I know what you mean about the permit system. Anything in NY that can be taxed is, except for the Gor-Tex and Granola crowd that hikes/bikes/kayaks the State Land. They get a free pass but it costs me $19.00 to go out and not catch fish. Seems fair.

As for Speers killer- his defense was he was shooting to scare the Trooper away! So you hit him and walk up and shoot him again!?!?! Thank God for incompetent lawyers.

The ATV/dragging case- Glad I'm not in his shoes. I understand WHY, but in NY it's a toss up if it's a righteous shoot or not.

[fatnhappy]

I kind of doubt Mr. Spitzer is going to be any friend of gun owners.


Like Pataki ever was. He was worse than Cuomo, at least the senate blocked Cuomo's schemes out of spite. Pataki's waste of LEO dollars on a worthless ballistic fingerprinting database, at the expense of equipment, training and investigators is a seminal illustration of NY's failure to address the root cause of crime, criminals. Moreover, he was the perfect example of the "I'll respect you in the morning" politicians. He ran for his first term courting the NRA and gun owners only to stab us in the back at every turn. I can't think of a single fiscal or social initiative he ever actually supported with which I agree. Such is the state of the NY republican party.

Now get this, Spitzer is campaigning on property tax cuts? What's this world coming to?

[bruce drake]

As a new home owner in New York, I'm tripping on Spitzer's claims of property tax cuts. I'll believe it when I see it.

Would you believe I saw an ad the other day claiming he would cut corruption in this state! This state is run by a democratic state house and a democratic state senate. Does this mean he is going to clean up his own Party?!

Bruce

[fatnhappy]

Republican controlled senate, and they're every bit as entrenched as Sheldon Silver democrats in the house.

[georgeld]

This is quite a thread. I'm sorry about your trooper getting killed.

Out here in SE Colo. As I've only considered myself 'an average plinker" with a handgun. I was amazed at being in a handgun match of a dozen or more targets, some to 75yds and at least two reloads required. I used an Old Mod BH, .30 carbine I got in early '73 and have shot thousands of rounds thru it.

This match had 32 shooters, at least 1/3 of them LEO's from the local police and sheriff's dept. During the multi reload session I dropped some ammo on the ground and when picking it up it shook me to look up and see at least ten of the others lined up behind me watching me shoot. That had never happened before.

When the scores' were totaled up I won the whole match, every single target! How that happened I have no idea as I'm just barely a 'fair shot' til the decent guys come along. I do shoot a lot though and at that time I'd been shooting at least twice a week and burning 3-500 rnds a session. Including a lot of back up to the target, pace off, whirl and shoot at various numbers of steps, directions and positions using single hand hold hip shots and either hand. To hear this sorry shooting ability is common nationwide is shocking.
The law enforcement community are supposed to be the best shooters, right??

When it come's to shooting the bad guys, hey, IF you're gonna shoot, shoot to kill! Far as I'm concerned: "IF I was in charge which I'm not, the rule's would be: "you take a hostage in my duty area, you're going to die at the first instant my sniper's can get a shot at you". The deal of that jerk at Bailey the other day 'hiding behind' that little girl of barely 5' tall and him being 6' is nonsense. Why didn't those snipers make a head shot?? "when a sniper has arrived, all negociations stop and he is in charge". OF course that would never fly, but, that's the way I'd try to run the dept.

Wish you well in having a safe retirement in a few years.

[madcaster]

You know,I'm from Virginia,Appalachain Mountains,not so much bad stuff going on here,but I guess we have our fair ratio-to-population.Tpr. Bret,I invite you to have a look here.Lots of National Forest here.
Politics?-Guys we would all be better off figuring they are all liars,so WE can be friends.
The 1911 Colt is all a policeman ever needs,with all the safety features,killing power,etc.,
Just my half a cent worth.
Jeff.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta wisdom in the last two posts.

It became pretty clear over the past dozen years or so that a good rifle was needed in police cars, along with the 12 gauge and now-upgraded sidearms. The two event types prompting this transition were the takeover bank robberies by heavily-armed robbery crews (Hibernia Bank in 1974 by the SLA, Security-Pacific Bank in Norco in 1980, and B of A/North Hollywood in 1997), as well as schoolyard shootings that have multiplied since the Purdy matter in Stockton.

In 1999, my agency responded in a reality-based fashion by purchasing surplus/rebuilt M-16A1's from the military and incorporating training regimens that stressed immediate aggressive engagement with armed perpetrators of these outrages. I will not go into details of the response methods used, but let's just say that bank alarm calls often feature 2-4 deputies with 223 caliber rifles surrounding the institutions. NO MORE NORCOS, NO MORE NORTH HOLLYWOODS. PERIOD.

We use W-W SXT Varmint 55 grain soft points in the rifles. THEY WORK, based on autopsy results I've seen myself.

[Bret4207]

A short update- Among the many rumours flying about, the "M-16 from the military" idea has been mentioned. Apparently Gov't agencies can get old/rebuilt M-16 type rifles at a good price. "Free" was mentioned. No futher info on that.

Suddenly we're getting measured for new vests!!! I had my last one from '87-2001 or 2002. Now I'm getting another one??? 3 vests in 20 years is a LOT compared to past practice.

The old guy went to the range the other day. I shot 249/250 with the Glock and 100/100 shotgun. Yeah, the old guy was top shooter. One kid shot a 250/250 and wiped out with the 12 ga. Good for me.

The old guy took the PT test today. No preperation at all. I KICKED BUTT! I may not be in great shape for a 33 year old, but for a 46 year old I did great! 70th percentile on the Cooper norms. That means 41 push ups, 38 situps in a minute and 15:16 in the run. Yeah, I'm slow. Not real impressive if I was a runner or workout freak, but I got some $$$$ out of it. I'm real happy. I may even try and work out a bit.

None of this has anything to do with guns, but I never kicked butt at much of anything before. I may even live to 50!

[fatnhappy]

One kid shot a 250/250 and wiped out with the 12 ga. Good for me.



Which is one more good argument for a comparatively low recoiling rifle, like the AR or maybe even the Mini 14 or 30. I'd bet my next paycheck the "kid" had trouble handling the recoil, especially since he can obviously handle a pistol like a pro. My friend, one of your buddies in uniform, has exactly that problem. He's very astute with a pistol but deer hunting here in the southern zone is shotgun only, and it's obvious to me he can't cope with the substantial recoil.

I just hope that the NYSP gets the rifles they need, as opposed to having substandard junk foisted on them. They deserve it.

[robertbank]

What the heck is a push-up???? LIke when you push yourself up with your hands to leave the table? 41! Heck I know I can do one for sure but don't look for two.

Well done.

Take Care Eh

bob

[floodgate]

Tpr. Bret:

Good on you!!! Raising those extra young'uns must really be keeping you in shape!

floodgate

[floodgate]

Robertbank:

No, them are push-AWAYS! Don't count as physical therapy - but may help with your cluster-oil numbers.

floodgate

[bruce drake]

Bret,

Considering you just pulled yourself out from under a tree a few weeks ago that is outstanding! The newer the vest the better you are off. Kevlar breaks down with time as well. Between body oils/sweat and UV ray penetration, it's good to replace those vests about every 3-5 years.

Bruce

[Bret4207]

Hey, those bruises cleared up pretty fast! There was enough left to get some odd looks though. I'm so sore today I can hardly move. Gotta get back to work and loosen up.

[9.3X62AL]

Well done, Bret! Old guys rock!

I am similarly sore all over, today and yesterday. I did a tire rotation and brake check on the F-250 in the driveway on Thursday afternoon, and all that tire rassling must be the reason. Honda wheels, they aren't. Amazingly, with 76K miles on the truck, the factory pads show 40% left on the front axle and about 50% on the rear. That will wait until after the first of the year.

I do hope that NYSP figures out a good, reliable service sidearm choice for your agency. I suspect my old department will opt for Glock in 40 S&W, but they are still going on the officer puchase/wide selection route--no complaints, so why spend the money to purchase and maintain the critters? There are advantages to uniformity, no doubt about it--but the present system has worked well for almost 20 years, and I think the admin types don't want to take wrenches to things that aren't broke--in itself, a noteworthy development.

[robertbank]

Man this soreness from physical activity must be spreading. Lifted six heavy glasses of 21 year old Canadian rye last night. Forearms and elbow feel fine but oh my head hurts. Must mean the body is still in great shape but the mind is going. Or might have been bad ice.

Take Care Eh

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Bad ice--in Canada? I thought Canadians did all the early R&D on ice, and had the formula perfected. And all this time, I had been avoiding the ice in MEXICO.

What do I know?

[Bret4207]

Bob- Probably a neck muscle issue from tilting your head back too fast! Try sipping or maybe a straw, or better yet a nice single malt Scotch. No head pain for me with that during my drinking years.

[robertbank]

Ah mother's milk. Yes now a single malt takes it to a different plane.

This 21 year old Canadian Rye was a gift from my son and I made the unforgiveable sin of drinking it with Coca Cola. Has there been a recall on Coke? Might have been a bad batch. I know it had nothing to do with 12 oz of Rye I managed to squirrel down my throat. :mrgreen:

Take Care Eh

Bob

[Bret4207]

With the possible exception of rum or vanilla ice cream, I can't think of a reason a civilized man would mix anything with Coke!

[robertbank]

There you go, I knew it was the Coke.:mrgreen: Ah a lesson re-learned. Funny how the memories from your mispent youth fade and some things just have to be re-learned.

Well one good thing is that age has cured or at least societies views have changed over time is we now drive with seatbelts and be don't drink and drive. The latter effectively removed the thought that the headache was caused by to much concentration on keeping the car out of the ditch.

Take Care

Bob

[Bret4207]

The boss says he just ordered 5,400 45GAP Glocksd. Expected to be here in time for spring range. Maybe my new horse from the Indian Terrotories Calvary Remount Station will arrive too!

[robertbank]

I always said if you are going to be a good police officer you best have a sense of humour. You do!

Take Care

Bob

[Joey]

The powers to be that selected a 9mm rather than a .45 killed him and any other of you who have to shoot it out. Sad, very sad.