Powder Measures

[Dragoon 45]

I am currently using a Lyman 55 BP measure and am less than satisfied with it. Using 2FG Goex, it can not be counted upon to throw the same charge after about five charges are thrown. When weighing charges thrown by this measure, I have had variances of over 4 grains. Called Lyman and they seemed to think the fault was in the powder not the measure.

So that puts me into a quandry. Either I try to get the 55 working right (which so far I have had no luck) or getting a new powder measure by a different maker.

What powder measure out there for BP work and throw consistent charges?

Thank You.

[Calamity Jake]

"Called Lyman and they seemed to think the fault was in the powder not the measure."

They are somewhat right, the 2F powder is course and no two grauales are alike so it will not stack very well when dumped from any measure not just the Lyman.

You might try using some sort of vibrator against the measure when the hopper is filled, then dump. Apply the vibration the same amount of time for each dump otherwise you will still get light charges.

[Don McDowell]

My 55 drops charges of all the various bp's to within .5 or less.
You might want to pull the rotor and give it a lite coat of graphite.
Make sure you use a smooth stroke and bump the top the same way every time.

[Boz330]

I have the 55 BP and have been really impressed with it. The testing that I did when I first got it, with Swiss 2F showed less than .2gr +or- and with BP that isn't enough to make much of a difference. Now I just weigh every 10th charge and that has worked well for me.
Technique with the 55 is important to get consistancy when throwing charges. If you bang the drum a little harder sometimes or use that knocker differently it can change your charge throw but 4 grs is a bunch. In my cases 4 grs too much would overflow the case.
The Belding and Mull is supposed to be one of the best and I have one but just haven't got it set up yet. The 55 has worked well enough for that the urgency isn't there to get off of my duff.

Bob

[cajun shooter]

I will +1 on the post by Don and Bob. I have two BP measures,a 55 and a RCBS. They both drop perfect loads but require that you keep them clean. I use Goex 2F and Goex Cartridge through both with like results. The 55 will throw so accurate of a charge that I check it very little only at first setting. See if your powder has lumps or some other problem. Maybe if you sock it some and give the 55 a good cleaning and coat of graphite as Don suggested.

[montana_charlie]

Using 2FG Goex, it can not be counted upon to throw the same charge after about five charges are thrown.

When weighing charges thrown by this measure, I have had variances of over 4 grains.
When I adjust the cavity in my (Redding) measure for a new weight, I throw two charges and put them back in the hopper before taking one to check on the scale.
As I make adjustments to get the measure where I want it, I continue to do that.
I never trust the charge that was in the cavity when I made an adjustment, nor the next one thrown after the setting change.

I am not clear on your actual procedure.
Are you weighing each of those five charges, or throwing five before checking one?

A four-grain variance can mean two grains above and below your desired weight.
Are most of your unsatisfactory charges too light or too heavy?

Have you considered checking your scale?

CM

[Dragoon 45]

My measure after about 10 charges thrown, will increase the amount of powder thrown. Say I start at 52 gns, after about 15 charges thrown the weight will be up to 55-56 gns. I have not had it throw any underweight charges yet, they seem to always increase in weight.

[Boz330]

Sounds like one of the slides is slipping somehow. I would take the thing apart and check it out. 4 grs of powder is a fair quantity, volume wise. A second question, are you using a balance beam scale or electronic? I use a balance beam for powder measuring because I have gotten occasional variances from my electronic scale especially if the battery gets low. Just a thought.
As I said before I've been using my 55 BP measure for 3 years now and have been very pleased with it. That kind of change is baffling.

Bob

[cajun shooter]

I'm not trying to offend but you are aware that the 55 has three adjustment points?From what you are saying it sounds as if one of them is not locked down. If you don't have the information sheet you can get it from Lyman.

[outdoorfan]

Figured I'd get in on this thread too. I have a RCBS Uniflow, and it various its charges of H4350 by .2-.3 above or below the targetted charge weight. I suppose this is normal. Maybe it needs a good cleaning? I've never cleaned it. Also, I am thinking about getting a Lyman 55 with the three disc system. I don't know how it works, but I've been reading that it measure ball and extruded powder very accurately (hopefully more accurately than my Uniflow does). Can anyone comment on this?

Oops, I just realized that this was posted in the BP forum. I'll have to repost elsewhere.

[59sharps]

had a 55 once for about 2 weeks. never could get it to throw 2 charges the same weight. not even close. Sold it on fleabay. Picked up a second RCBS Uniflow never a problem.

[outdoorfan]

Well, then maybe I should just be thankful for what I have and not expect too much out of it.

[wills]

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/scales-measures/pdf/LyC_SM_PM_55Cl.pdf

[Don McDowell]

I loaded 100 rounds for the 40-65 last night. charge was 58 grs of Goex 3f express. Never had more than .4 of a grain over or under, most of them were dead on 58 grs. Lyman 55 bp measure

[Boz330]

Figured I'd get in on this thread too. I have a RCBS Uniflow, and it various its charges of H4350 by .2-.3 above or below the targetted charge weight. I suppose this is normal. Maybe it needs a good cleaning? I've never cleaned it. Also, I am thinking about getting a Lyman 55 with the three disc system. I don't know how it works, but I've been reading that it measure ball and extruded powder very accurately (hopefully more accurately than my Uniflow does). Can anyone comment on this?

Oops, I just realized that this was posted in the BP forum. I'll have to repost elsewhere.


Stick powders are hard to get accurate throws from. I always threw light of optimum and used a trickler to bring it right up to perfect.

Bob

[dromia]

Are you using a powder baffle?

[1874Sharps]

I have and use a Lyman 55 for 45-70 black powder charging of cases. It is an old model of the original design and I leave it set right where it is, as I have just one load that I shoot now in that caliber. It seems to throw a little light for the first few times until the powder column in the hopper gets settled, but after that it throws consistently enough to give equal heights of BP in the case. Fortunately for us who shoot the soot, meticulous weighing of charges is not important as it is when loading match ammo with modern smokeless. In Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting the Buffalo Rifles of the Old West", there is a section in which five champion shooters discuss their casting and loading procedures and all (to the best of my memory) used volumetric methods rather than weight in charging cases.

[cajun shooter]

1874Sharps, Go back and read again. Dave Gullo states that he weighs all charges until his 55 is set. Meaning that he trusted the 55 to dispence a accurate charge. Butch Ulsher on page 189 states on line12 I weigh all powder charges on a PACT electronic scale. Mike himself states in the next section of Match Quality Loads on page 191 quote I do weigh powder charges to within plus or minus .01 tenth of a grain and trickle them into the cartrige cases through a 24 inch drop tube. unquote. How can you read this and say that they load by volume is beyond me.

[outdoorfan]

Are you using a powder baffle?

Actually, I don't know what that is.

[Boz330]

While consistency is paramount in BP loading, IMHO .01gr is a little anal. I have 2 loads that I shoot out of my 40-65 and the heavier load is 7 grains more than the first and the increase in velocity is a whopping 25fps. One whole grain of powder probably wouldn't be outside of the extreme spread. There are other factors that would have bigger influence on the extreme spread than that little bit of powder. On the other hand it sure wouldn't hurt anything to do it. But BP loading is labor intensive enough that weighing every charge would really add to that. BTW I have done it and didn't see any difference so now I weigh every 10th charge just to verify that nothing has changed.
Caveat: I am not a national ranked shooter by any stretch of the imagination and probably wouldn't be, even if I was shooting one of their guns and ammo. BUT I do have fun.:mrgreen:

Bob

[Boz330]

Actually, I don't know what that is.

It is an inverted V shape piece of metal in the bottom of the powder column, with holes on each side of the V. The idea being that the weight of the powder in the measure isn't an influence on the charge weight.

Bob

[1874Sharps]

Cajun,

As I said, that was to the best of my memory. If you are looking at the book, then I will take your word for it. My book is stuck away somewhere after a move several years ago. You are most polite.

[martinibelgian]

I can only agree with Bob - a few 10ths up and down just doesn't show up on the target, even at long range. I use my RCBS Uniflow to load, and only do some spot checks on weight when loading. BP is such an inefficient propellant, that 0.5% difference (or less) in the powder charge just isn't going to show up on target.

[1874Sharps]

Martinibelgian,

I must agree with you. I do not see the slight difference between weighed charges and thrown charges on the target either. In fact, the good folks at Buffalo Arms (started by Dave Gullo, phone number 208-263-6953) will tell you that Dave uses a Lyman 55BP to throw his charges and that he does not worry about weighing each charge, only every tenth charge to check the load every so often. That is where I remembered that from and verified it by phone an hour ago. The friendly folks at Buffalo Arms were very helpful to me when I made my turn to the "darkside" a few years ago. Not only do they stock alot of BP supplies and obsolete brass, but they will give good advice as well.

[Boz330]

Ditto on BA those have to be some of the nicest folks that I have ever spent money with.

Bob

[cajun shooter]

Boz330, I myself don't weigh every charge and I sure don't do like MLV to within.1 on the scale. I set my measure with both a beam and electronic scales to make sure they are close and I load. My problem was when 1874 Sharps stated that the top shooters load by volume and don't weigh charges. For shooting SASS type loads that is pretty much so but a crock of bull when shooting BPCR or Creedmoor loads. Just as you stated Boz all the top shooters stress one big point when telling you how to load the winning ammo. Consistency, Consistency, and then you have Consistency.

[1874Sharps]

Bob,

The folks at Buffalo Arms really are a great bunch of guys and they are the most complete black powder cartridge outfit I have come across. They also have guns, both new and used, for sale.

[Boz330]

If you use a powder measure to throw charges, that is a volumetric measure of sorts. The weight is only relevant in that lot of powder. Even if you leave the lid off of the container for a couple days, that can change the weight of that particular can even though you haven't changed the setting on your measure. A volume measure can't be ruled out as being accurate as long as it shoots and is consistently thrown.
The guys using the Belding and Mull measures, measure the depth on there volume measure with a depth mic for consistency and that is supposed to be one of the best out there for BP. I have 50lbs of the same lot of Swiss and I don't change my settings from month to month for the matches and I get less than .05gr variance. As long as everything inside that lot of reloads stays the same there doesn't seem to be a problem. What level of anal retention is the right level, who knows.
I started clocking my brass and boolits years ago and I've seen where some of the better shooters say that is horse hockey and don't worry about it. It is a habit I picked up and it doesn't hurt anything that is for sure. I would like to spend all of my time proving or disproving some of these things but the fact is I struggle sometimes just to have time to load and shoot. When I find something that works for me I tend to stay with it. My shooting buddy on the other hand is semi-retired and he can't leave anything that works alone, he has to improve it more. That is generally when I have a chance to whup him. About the only time.
I'm loosing my second part time job here in 2 weeks and thinking about going to a 4 day work week at the shop since the economy is so good, just might get a chance to experiment. Got to catch up the honey do list first though, then it will be hunting season. Oh well it sounded good there for a couple seconds.

Bob

[1874Sharps]

Well said, Bob.

[dromia]

The reason I asked about the baffle is that without one the powder can settle with the first dozen throws or so and that puts a little more powder into cavity which is fixed. Same volume but more powder in it increased weight.

I use a Belding and Mull and a Lyman BP both without baffles, I just give them a few taps before throwing to settle the powder and they throw consistent charges. As Gert has stated a few grains here and there makes no difference on the target and volume is measure for BP.

As with all powder dispensers a consistent technique translates into a consistent throw.