School Me On Swaging .22 LR Brass

[nicholst55]

Okay, I've done a bit of reading here and elsewhere to include Mighty Thor's excellent thread, and here's what I think I know:

In order to make .224" bullets from .22 LR brass I would need the following -

1. Derimming die (supposedly a Lee .224" sizer and a turned down punch will suffice).
2. A core swage die
3. A core seat die
4. A point forming die

I understand that I could do this on a reloading press - preferably with a swaging conversion ram, but a dedicated swaging press is distinctly preferable.

Have I missed anything here? I know that I'll need either a core mold or a core cutter and a source of lead for same. What else?

I have Mr. Blackmon's catalog, so I have a good feel for prices.

[MightyThor]

I started the whole thing on a RCBS A2. The hardest pressure for me is de-rimming because I anneal afterward. Core swage die is good but I also started by just sorting cores into uniform weight groups. As time has gone by I have added additional dies, presses, core tools and casting equip. I still outsource my annealing when doing a batch, but I anneal small test bunches with a propane torch.
Also you will need some kind of lube. I use lanolin straight, many use a mix of lanolin and some lighter oil or alcohol, many use STP or some other industrial grease, I think it is not so important which lube you use so long as it is used in a routine that guarantees that the bullet does not hang in the die and is not deformed by the pressure of the lube itself.

[JohnM]

I agree with everything you’ve said MightyThor, although I used to de-rimming before annealing, I found this needed quite a bit of force and made longer press handles to make it easier. I now anneal after washing the RF cases and this has made life a lot easier. I also get a better finished jacket which tends to make a better bullet…..

John

[454PB]

There is no need for a core swage die, as long as the cores are consistant.

This is the reason I went to cutting lead wire cores, rather than casting them. The cores I cast varied by 2 to 4 grains, and the core mould (Corbin) is a PITA to use. My cut cores vary by less than .2 grains.

When I tried forming jackets without annealing first, I had an awful time.... jackets stuck in the die or punch and bases ripped off.

[EDK]

I had a CORBIN set up back in the late '70s.

CLEAN the 22 cases within an inch of their lives...the grit will eat punches if you don't do a good job!

Otherwise, have fun. The CORBIN book I had showed some fun projects...swage the nose around a BB....etc

[nicholst55]

Thanks for the advice, guys. It will be a while until I get back to the States, and I haven't actually ordered any dies just yet. I've got a 5-gallon bucket full of .22 brass waiting for me, though, and I can't wait to get at it!

[daveinsvaz]

I have found a really good lube for swaging.
It is graphite suspended in a petrolium spray. The graphite stays on the bullet, or brass hull, and the spray evaporates very quickly.
I now use it for swaging, as a bullet release for molds and as a lube for cases.
I discovered this after teaching my new wife to reload. She stuck nine (9) rifle cases in a row! Since using the suspended graphite she hasn't stuck a single one. Even with a 900 round continous run .

[sargenv]

So how much would you turn down the punch for case forming? Just a couple thousanths? The thickness of the brass? I'd assume the latter... That would be a pretty slick trick.

[DLCTEX]

Turn the punch to a slip fit inside a clean case and polish to final fit.

[plumber]

What does a setup to make .224 projectiles cost? I'm very interested in this, as this is the only boolit I don't cast. I'm leery about running cast boolits through my AR. Is Corbin the only game in town?

[303Guy]

plumber, for me it's trying to cast the little beggars! Then I tried patching them!:mrgreen:

So, now I'm trying to swage them using 22LR cases. I cannot say how to do it properly as I haven't succeeded yet!:coffee:

I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not but I am trying filling the 22 cases with solder - actually soldering the core in. It sounded easier than it turned out to be. Not really difficult but the 'core' shrinks so much one has to leave a bead protruding out the top. Then there is making sure there are no voids. Do-able but takes a little practice. The process requires a gas torch. Annealing and making the core becomes the same operation but solder is expensive.

This was my second attempt. The first attempt tore the 'jacket' in half.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-257F.jpg
The soft point nose got destroyed during removing the swaging from the die.

[nicholst55]

What does a setup to make .224 projectiles cost? I'm very interested in this, as this is the only boolit I don't cast. I'm leery about running cast boolits through my AR. Is Corbin the only game in town?

I recently e-mailed Richard Corbin and asked him that; here's his response:

"A more or less typical cost to get set up to swage bullets in one caliber is about $900. That would be one of the hand swaging presses, a three die bullet swage set, the RF jacket maker set, and accessories.

Richard Corbin"

I think you could get by a good bit cheaper than that using a standard reloading press instead of a dedicated swaging press. I'd estimate around $500, maybe a few bucks less.

There is also Larry Blackmon in LA; he doesn't have a website, but I can e-mail you a copy of his catalog if you're interested.

[plumber]

Thanks for the info. I would like to get into this as I have a very large supply of soft lead, and a few 5 gallon buckets full of empy 22. I'd much rather see them become boolets than end up in china as scrap.

[sagacious]

...
I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not but I am trying filling the 22 cases with solder - actually soldering the core in. It sounded easier than it turned out to be. Not really difficult but the 'core' shrinks so much one has to leave a bead protruding out the top. Then there is making sure there are no voids. Do-able but takes a little practice. The process requires a gas torch. Annealing and making the core becomes the same operation but solder is expensive.
...

303,
You can solder-in the cores by swabbing the inside of the cleaned 22lr jackets with a tiny bit of acid flux, and then dropping in a swaged or cast lead core that contains a couple percent tin. Heat with torch, and the core will fuze to the jacket.

I have done just that, as well as swaging with a cast core, and also swaged a core from powdered-lead. The powdered-lead was the most challenging. I also swage a lead rear-core with a plastic front-core as a method to alter the weight, bearing length, and balance. And I swage-up a nice little plastic-nosed "ballisitic-tip" bullet with the 22lr jackets.

In all cases, and regardless of core material or soldering, in my experience the bullets fragment explosively when they hit any sort of solid or liquid target. The fused-core bullets acted no differently that the powdered-core bullets. So, in my experience the extra work to solder the core was wasted, since the jacket is so thin that soldering it to the core adds no strengthening to the bullet. My usual load is a 52gr 22lr-jacket bullet that averages 3088fps, but I have loaded them to 3312fps avg, and they all fragment explosively when they hit.

Those velocities work very well in my guns, but I supect that prolonged heating of the jacket will soften it enough that in some guns it may cause fouling, or increase the likelyhood of the bullet disintegrating from rotational stress while in flight. Soldering 22lr-jacket cores is a lot of labor for no benefit.

Below is a pic of a recent small batch of my plastic-tip bullets. They are very accurate. The plastic tip makes ejection from the point-forming die a bit smoother and easier, and, the bullet tip and ogive is always nice and consistent.

Keep up the good work. Hope this helps, good luck!

[Caveape]

Hey Sagacious!
What do you use for the plastic in your "ballistic tips"? If its an airsoft pellet, do you put it in on top of the core, then core-seat the combo?

Also, what's the weight on one of those?

Very nice boolits by the way! It looks just like the vitamin a lead-deficient prairie dog would need around here!

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, Sagacious. I like your plastic tip idea! Can you post pics showing how it's done?

[sagacious]

Hey Sagacious!
What do you use for the plastic in your "ballistic tips"? If its an airsoft pellet, do you put it in on top of the core, then core-seat the combo?
Caveape,
I used to run a ski-repair shop, and we used small plastic plugs to fill old binding-screw holes in the skis when new bindings were mounted. Always had tons of them lying around, but never really used them much. One day, eureka!, it hit me that there was another use for all those pointy plastic plugs. Some types are very pointy and have a conical point, and some are more rounded and not as pointy. I found each type to be extremely useful.

I seat the lead core during standard core-seating. I like to really make sure the lead core gets seated firmly and consistently. Then I put in the plastic tip for point forming. Doesn't take much pressure during point-forming, since most of the point is already shaped by the plastic tip. Just have to bring the jacket closed enough to clamp onto the plastic.


Also, what's the weight on one of those?

Very nice boolits by the way! It looks just like the vitamin a lead-deficient prairie dog would need around here!
Thank you very much for the kind words. The weight of the plastic tip is a couple grains. They come in a couple different lengths, so the core weight has to be adjusted to seamlessly align the plastic insert with the ogive-- but it pretty much takes care of itself when point forming. So, the finished bullets weigh from 50 to 57grs depending on the plastic tip style.

The ones above weigh 52grs. The jacket is 9grs, the cores are 41.0-41.3grs, and the plastic tip is 2grs.

I have also used 5mm styrene rod from the local hardware store craft section (I think its 5mm... could be 4.7mm or some other weird number, I'd have to double check) and cut it into small cylinders to use as the "top core." That works very well, and fills-out the front of the jacket so it doesn't wrinkle or collapse during point-forming. The air-soft pellets I have seen are all 0.23+" in diam, and thus too large for use in 22lr jackets. If someone knows of smaller ones, I would sure like to hear about it! I have looked and not found smaller ones.

There are all kinds of things one can swage into the point of a bullet. The only limitations are supply, and consistency/uniformity, and one's imagination.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[sagacious]

Thanks for that, Sagacious. I like your plastic tip idea! Can you post pics showing how it's done?
303,
No, I can't post pics on procedure right now. My camera just died and I've been bogged-down in the details of which waterproof camera to buy.

But! I do have some old pics that may help a little. The process is very simple.
A bunch of 22lr-case jacket are ironed-out into jackets. I like to separate as to maker. I then use a pickling-solution similar to the ones described elsewhere in this forum to clean the formed jackets inside and out after annealing.

Next the cores are cast. I toss any that are more than a .3gr range outside my target weight. A core is placed into a jacket, and I seat the core.

The last step is to point-form. I just drop whatever type of plastic tip I'm using into the case, and run the works into the point-forming die to securely clamp the jacket onto the plastic insert. That's it.

The pics below should help a bit. The first is an example of cores and a jacket (one core per jacket). The next shows some swaged bullets while setting-up the point-forming die. You can see a plastic nose-point next to some wide-mouth hollow-points. Some types of plastic points are pointy and conical-- like the pink ones above, and some types are more rounded like the yellow one shown below. All work very well. The plastic nose takes up a lot of space, since the jacket isn't drawn-down into it's own point.

If you have any questions, just ask.

Hope these pics help, keep up the good work.

[303Guy]

Way cool, Sagacious! Thanks. :drinks:

[dsmjon]

Any of you guys need 22rim fireds, go check my thread in the PIF forum. I picked up a few gallons of it the other night.... I'm going to keep some of them to learn on, but certainly don't need the amount I've got..

[TAWILDCATT]

I had a tool for making 22 jackets.the tool disapeared but I have the dies and punches.I saw the same tool in vickerys metal gunsmithing book.starts on pg.364
and on 381 is drawing of the press and dies assembled.I made some and still have the few I made.the press is shaped like an E and would be easy to make with a shop.
the book is "advanced gunsmithing"by W.F.VICKERY printed by small arms tecnical publishing co plantersville south carolina.mine is 1944 edition.

[BT Sniper]

Sagacious,

Where can I get some of those plastic points?

Way cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BT

[BT Sniper]

Quick google and this was all I found. Must be the same stuff but 15 cents a piece will get pretty expensive. Any bulk plugs avialble?

http://tognar.com/binding_tools_boot_canting_glue_ski_snowboard.html #plugs

hole plugs

White Plastic Plugs Item #SPK-SPW : $2.95 bag

Click Image To Enlarge
If you mount new bindings on old skis, use these plastic hole plugs to fill old binding screw holes you won't be reusing...it will help keep out water that can otherwise freeze, expand and possibly create rust and other structural damage. Just squirt in a dab of binding or similar waterproof glue, and tap one of these plugs in the empty hole. Trim off any protruding plug material with a chisel, and you're done. Available in black or white, and sold in bags of 20 plugs. Quantity:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[BT Sniper]

OK getting closer. Found some @ 20 for 89 cents guess thats about 4 cents a piece and any color you want. May just have to give it a try. Great job guys. Best sight I know of that passes on lots of valuable DIY info.

May just have to make a trip down to the local ski shop.

Good shooting.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Now that I know these tips can be found @ around 3 cents a piece only question I have is do they hold the shape of the nose pointing die or do they tend to return to there original shape?

[sagacious]

Sagacious,

Where can I get some of those plastic points?

Way cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BT
BT,
Bingo, it looks like you've found 'em. I have looked high-and-low, and I have not found a bulk supply. I just happened to have accumulated a bulk supply from working in the ski industry for years. Please let me know if you find a bulk supply, and I will certainly do the same. Problem is that they're not the sort of thing that one uses in bulk, so finding them in larger quantities may be tough.

I'm always on the look out, will keep you posted! :drinks:

[sagacious]

Now that I know these tips can be found @ around 3 cents a piece only question I have is do they hold the shape of the nose pointing die or do they tend to return to there original shape?
BT,
They are not all made from the same grade of plastic. I have hard ones that need to be babied, and soft ones that spring right back into shape.

I can tell you that the ogive shape of your dies, the internal finish of your dies, and the quality of your swaging lube can all make a difference, as can the diameter of your ejection pin. I just tap the pin and they pop right out with no deformation. As in everything else, different operators may get different results.

[wonderwolf]

I've looked at the "balance balls" that corbin offers but havn't looked into plastic otherwise (tried airsoft pellets but that just failed.

Just finished up a batch of 61gr RNSP .224" bullets using CCI and aguila brass. I need to just start sorting all my headstamps because of the final bullet type depends on the case. CCI is giving me more jacket around the tip and the aguila is just about a shade sticking out. Gives a nice RN when I tumble in a old t-shirt to clean them up.

[MIBULLETS]

If anyone is still interested, I found a place where you can buy the plugs in bulk.

http://www.svst.com/SearchForm.aspx?Search=hole+plugs

Dan

[sargenv]

Man.. the more I read the more I want to get off my duff and try this.. I have the 22 casings.. but not the room yet. Having a tree cut down tomorrow in preparation of installing a storage shed for just this type of shop space.. then I need to contact Mr Blackmon... one of these days soon I hope...

[wonderwolf]

If anyone is still interested, I found a place where you can buy the plugs in bulk.

http://www.svst.com/SearchForm.aspx?Search=hole+plugs

Dan

Not a bad price.

[andremajic]

I had a tool for making 22 jackets.the tool disapeared but I have the dies and punches.I saw the same tool in vickerys metal gunsmithing book.starts on pg.364
and on 381 is drawing of the press and dies assembled.I made some and still have the few I made.the press is shaped like an E and would be easy to make with a shop.
the book is "advanced gunsmithing"by W.F.VICKERY printed by small arms tecnical publishing co plantersville south carolina.mine is 1944 edition.


That book is pretty scarce and expensive. I just did a book search for it.

Any way we could get those pages scanned into .pdf format? I believe that since it's not been printed for a couple decades that the copyright has expired.

Those books need to be preserved for posteritys sake! A lot of information to be lost forever once those books are gone.

I just cringe to think of my books being thrown out or being donated to goodwill after I die. That's why it's important to mention that kind of information in a will, or at least have a progeny that shares the same interests.

Andy.

[wonderwolf]

I wonder just how those would work if one was making a 35 or 40gr bullet for the hornet or some such type and didn't want to trim the jackets. I'm kinda curious on using some .22 short brass for that but its just so hard to find. Sounds like I need to make a collet for the drill press or something.

[ANeat]

You cant just seat a lighter core and have the same external dimensions?

[303Guy]

Two ways to do that. Firstly, make a very hollow point bullet with no exposed lead. Secondly, instead of pressing the rim of the LR case outwards, one can press it inward, creating a hollow base bullet. Make that hollow point too for even lighter.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-341F.jpg This prototype weighs 53gr.

[Bullshop Junior]

You cant just seat a lighter core and have the same external dimensions?
Yes.
I have made 45, 50, 52, 55, and 60gn bullets with the same dies and same cores. out side looks the same, but the inside it what makes the differance.

[MIBULLETS]

Wonderwolf, I actually did this last night. I used a 22 short case with one of the hole plugs. Bullet weight after getting the correct lead level in the jacket was 35 gr. The length is about the same as a Sierra 45 gr Hornet bullet.

[wonderwolf]

You cant just seat a lighter core and have the same external dimensions?

I'm just looking at them like a ballistic tip, I've messed with making 30-40's but Not having to worry about the jacket collapsing if you didn't anneal correctly might save me some headaches. plus with all the different colors of plugs you could have dif colors for dif weights.....:twisted:

[ANeat]

Im still waiting on my press and dies so right now Im just trying to soak everything up.

I have no idea to what extreme you could seat a lighter core and still get a good bullet out using an unaltered 22rf case.



The plastic tips look great thats for sure

[wonderwolf]

prolly around 15gr or so, seeing as the case is about 10gr of that, plastic tip could take up the rest? hehehe

[BT Sniper]

Tried to order some of the plastic tips from sight mentioned above @ $8 per bag of 500 but it was a dealer to dealer company. So still looking.

BT

[wonderwolf]

Tried to order some of the plastic tips from sight mentioned above @ $8 per bag of 500 but it was a dealer to dealer company. So still looking.

BT

Good to know, I'll check with some of the ski shops in my area, Only want a few handfuls to try out.

[MIBULLETS]

I sent them an email, they said no problem. I just have to call the order in instead of using the website.

[BT Sniper]

Well guys I finally got around to calling up the company and ording 2 bags ( 1000 total) of black plastic hole plugs. $16 total. Probably be here next week. I'm going to give it a try on top of my 308 bullets.

I'll take some pics when I get them perfected.

Wonder Wolf, depending on how they work I will either send you a fewof the plastic tips or tell you it worked so good you should order your self some:)

BT

[hardcase54]

I have the book in pdf form 38.5mb, if anyone is interested?

[Archibald]

BT, how did those plastic tips work out?