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outdoorfan
08-10-2009, 11:10 AM
I've tried pp now for my 30-06 and .223. I get okay accuracy with the '06, but I can't get rid of the leading in either gun. The .223 is new with no jacketed through it. Maybe 150 cast, though. The 30-06 had maybe 100-150 jacketed before I switched to cast. I throated it out before shooting cast, so no doubt there's some tooling marks still there. I did run a few (10) patched loads with 320 grit firelapping compound on them to open things up a bit. Seemed to work, as now I can shoot .310 boolits without too much resistance on chambering (.310 throat).

In both guns I've tried sizing from .001 under bore diameter to .002 over bore diameter. I got leading on all of them. My patched and sized rounds have been either at throat diameter or .001 under. In the .223 I tried .224, .225, and .226. Still got leading. The boolits that I'm using in each are LBT spitzers (no bore riding nose). I patched both of them so that the patch extended well onto the ogive. Still got leading. I tried three different kinds (thicknesses) of paper. Still got leading.

I dunno. BTW, I get leading with conventional boolits, as well. By guess is that the tooling marks are tearing things up.

BABore
08-10-2009, 12:43 PM
What are you using for powder, alloy, and how fast are you pushing them?

I just discovered how to really lead up my 30'06 by PP a 311041 cast from Pb. I was using 13 grains of RD and kicking it in the pants too hard. It was bumping up before it could get into the rifling and was probably stripping the patch off. I haven't been doing this for very long, but noticed one impotent thing. Iff'in I don't get instant patch flu-flu at the muzzle, something bad will come about from lack there of.

docone31
08-10-2009, 01:17 PM
For what is worth here, I use very hard castings. In some cases, I mix in zinc.
I have not yet used "soft" castings. I have also had not only no leading, I get a shiney bore.
It might just be me, but I use the Lee .30cal 180gn mold. I size it to .308, then wrap with two wraps of notebook paper. This I resize to .309. I load to factory specs for a standard load. OAL is the same as factory.
I use a cigarette roller to roll my patches. They go on extremely tight. The paper is 1/2 way from the crimp groove to the tip. I use Auto Wax, so far, Turtle brand, lightly smear with sizeing, size it, and leave it alone! I load to minimum load data for the jacketed equivelant.
So far, I have been useing 4895, 4064. I do not worry about leade, throat, and I did fire some wiped with lapping compound to remove hammer marks on the rifleing.
Even the ones that were under size, did not lead the bore. Lousey accuracy to say the least, but no leading. It seems paper patching removes the lead, and copper.

outdoorfan
08-10-2009, 02:49 PM
I've been using H4350 in the '06 and H4895 in the .223. Boolits are 20 bhn for the .223 and 25 for the '06. I've also tried 18 bhn in the '06. Loads are touching the lands when loaded. Velocities that I've experimented with in the '06 have been from 2,300-2650 fps (195 gr naked). In the .223, 2,100-3,000.

I also pp the way Docone does with the cig roller. Patches are tight even after sizing. Patches are lubed before sizing down.

Lead Fred
08-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Sounds like too soft and too fast

Harden them up, and or slow them down

longbow
08-10-2009, 07:43 PM
You said you used 3 different thicknesses of paper. What thicknesses and what type of paper?

If the paper is too thin or too fragile it may be cutting.

Depth of rifling may have some effect too. Deeper rifling may require a smaller booilt diameter and thicker patch.

outdoorfan
08-10-2009, 08:12 PM
Sounds like too soft and too fast

Harden them up, and or slow them down


They're not too soft. And if they won't shoot at the lower end velocities that I tried, then it's not worth it to me.

outdoorfan
08-10-2009, 08:15 PM
You said you used 3 different thicknesses of paper. What thicknesses and what type of paper?

If the paper is too thin or too fragile it may be cutting.

Depth of rifling may have some effect too. Deeper rifling may require a smaller booilt diameter and thicker patch.


.0015 Meade Tracing Paper, .003 Notebook paper, .004 computer printer paper.

It would be nice if I had some .002-.0025 stuff on hand to try, but I don't think it will make any difference anyway.

Depth of rifling in the '06 = .0025
Bore = .303; Groove = .308

In the .223:

Bore = .218-.219; Groove = .224

outdoorfan
08-10-2009, 08:16 PM
Should also add that I get nice confetti with most of the load combinations that I've tried.

docone31
08-10-2009, 09:20 PM
It took many pounds of lead, several custom dies, untill I got any results worth mentioning.
Keep plugging away.
Stick with the computer paper.
Keep at it.
My patched loads perform best really cranked out there. POI was always higher than identical jacketed loads.

yondering
08-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Are your patches only on the driving bands of the boolit, or all the way up to the ogive? I patch so there is no lead contacting the bore. The only way I get any leading is if a patch is ripped when chambering that round carelessly.

Maybe take a few pics of your patched boolits to show what you're doing. Are you using a smooth sided paper patch boolit, or a grease groove boolit? Are you twisting a tail on the patch, or just folding the paper over the base a little bit?

outdoorfan
08-11-2009, 12:34 AM
Are your patches only on the driving bands of the boolit, or all the way up to the ogive? Past the driving bands/bearing surface and into the ogive by a good .125 or so.I patch so there is no lead contacting the bore. The only way I get any leading is if a patch is ripped when chambering that round carelessly.

Maybe take a few pics of your patched boolits to show what you're doing. Are you using a smooth sided paper patch boolit, or a grease groove boolit? Are you twisting a tail on the patch, or just folding the paper over the base a little bit?[B]Folding over the base. I'll see if I can't get a picture posted sometime tomorrow.

-----

longbow
08-11-2009, 01:33 AM
Okay then, it looks like you have the bases covered for thickness and nothing looks out of the ordinary with your bore and groove diameters.

It seems odd that you would get leading as even with ACWW in my .303 the paper patch compresses the lead enough to show rifling but doesn't cut through in the bore ~ or at least there is no leading at all.

How is the lead into the rifling? If that is sharp it may be cutting the paper as the boolit enters the barrel. Other than that, I'm stumped.

You mention tool marks in the '06 which may be at least part of the the problem with it but what about the .223? Have both been fire lapped?

Also, have you slugged the full length of the barrel to see if there are tight and loose spots? My Marlin had several tight/loose spots and it leaded badly with cast until I lapped them out. No problem with PP boolits though.

I'm just thinking that maybe if there are constrictions then maybe after there is blow by burning the patch. Just guessing at this point.

Since you have tried sizing to 0.001" under bore size and still got leading that indicates failure of the paper patch by cutting/tearing or burning (I know I am stating the obvious here but I'm kind of thinking out loud). If you were shooting over bore size with hard alloy I would suggest tougher paper and smaller boolit. But again, it looks like you've covered that.

You might try some lighter loads around 1800 to 2000 FPS to see what happens and it may make it easier to recover some patching to "read" it.

I guess another thought is to recover some boolits to see if there are signs of gas cutting or stripping on them.

I'm out.

Longbow

pdawg_shooter
08-11-2009, 08:12 AM
The only way to get leading with a paper patched bullet is if the patch fails or the patch is not applied right. Otherwise, the lead never touches the bore.

docone31
08-11-2009, 08:25 AM
My thought also.
The tearing of the patch when chambered carelessly.
I only got torn patches from a die that was not opened up for patching.
A photo will help us diagnose.

yondering
08-11-2009, 12:31 PM
outdoorfan, to get leading, the bare boolit has to be touching the bore. This should not happen with a properly executed paper patch.
I think it is one of two things:
-1) Patch tearing during chambering or firing. Try chambering a few rounds as you normally do, but pull them out again without firing and inspect the patches. Also, are you seating the boolits so that the patch engages the rifling upon chambering? If the boolit has to jump to the rifling, that may damage the patch.

-2) Patch coming off the boolit. With the patch just folded over the bases, instead of twisted into a tail, the patch is essentially a tube, open on both ends. It is possible (although I haven't heard of it before) that the boolit is slipping out of the patch sometimes, either on entering the rifling, or some point down the bore. This same thing has been known to happen with FMJ bullets that have the nose cut off, leaving the jacket open on both ends. You might try applying longer patches, with a twisted tail, to see if that cures the problem.

Keep in mind that to get leading, you don't have to have a problem with every round; if just one round in a string has a bad patch you can get leading.

docone31
08-11-2009, 01:24 PM
I cut my strips 1" wide, soak, lay in the roller, place the casting, roll, then twist a tail to dry.
When I snip my tails, I leave at least 1/2 of a turn of a twist before sizeing. The sizing ram jams the tail flush with the base of the casting. Only the tip shows.
Might be it.

1874Sharps
08-11-2009, 01:54 PM
OutdoorFan,

There is much good help and advice in the above posts. I have had my patch strip upon firing in a 30-06 before and leave an ugly great stream of lead in the bore. Most likely this happened due to the patch being a bit loose, I think, and stripping off in the throat. I roll my patches with my fingers and make much effort in wrapping them tight. Also, belling the mouth of the case (just as you would for a straight wall case) and seating the patched bullet slowly will help prevent the patch from tearing while loading. I set the seating die to turn the bell back inward a little but do no roll crimping, as that can cut the patch and lead to stripping.

As Docone31 testifies, it also took me mucho (that's a little Spanish lingo) lead, paper and powder to find the right combinations and to get my skill levels up to where I could consistently load good ammo. Hang in there, it is worth it in the end and quite satisfying as well!

outdoorfan
08-11-2009, 02:51 PM
Thanks for all your great replies. I agree that the lead must be touching the bore somehow. For the record, I have pulled several pp boolits out of the 30-06 case, and everything was intact. This is also after having chambered and pulled the cartridge several times. All chambering was done carefully (placing the cartridge in the chamber with my fingers before closing the bolt on them).

I also load the cartridges so that the boolits are either jammed into the lands or are very close.

I don't crimp the cases when seating the pp boolits.

The bases of the pp boolits have the pp really tight and flat (mashed) to the bottom of the boolit after sizing. I will pp one later, taking pictures of it before and after sizing.

The leade in the 30-06 is only 1/2 degree (very slight taper). Neither rifle has been firelapped. The 30-06 barrel is a custom jobber and is handlapped. I haven't slugged either barrel in a way to absolutely know if there is any "loose" spots in it. I doubt this, however. I can get sub-MOA with regular boolits in the .223.

As to twisted tails, I haven't been doing that with the '06, but I did with the .223.

Keep in mind that I also get leading with conventional boolits in both guns, whether it be with soft or hard alloys. The fit is good, or at least I have every reason to believe it is. Whether using slow powders or fast powders, high velocity or low. They lead every time. The weird thing is that I just shot a 1 7/8 inch ten-shot group at 100 yards this morning in my '06. Velocity was 2,300. 10-inch twist. I've tried three good lubes, and I have gotten leading with each of them.

The leading shows up as the first two dry patches I run through the bores are really black and greasy, sometimes with some flakes on them. I assume that's lead. I don't know what else it would be.

outdoorfan
08-11-2009, 06:56 PM
I found a couple of pp boolits that I had on hand, one of them being a reject. They both are dirty from sitting on the reloading bench. The .223 pp got peeled back as I ran it through the sizing die. Otherwise, those patches extend way onto the ogive. On the 30-06, those don't extend quite as far onto the ogive.

The .223 tail is twisted, trimmed, and nicely mashed onto the base. Not quite as well on the '06, but most of those were decently mashed too.

docone31
08-11-2009, 07:05 PM
Ah-ah!
How wet are those patches when you roll them?
My leading edge on my patches is shrunk right down on the ogive. On the .30, yours is in a straight line.
I put my patches soaking wet on the apron of the roller when I wrap.
Also, the folded base on the .30 in the lower, I prefer longer tails that I twist.
It does look like the patches are too dry when you wrap them. On the larger calibers, and BP loads, a lot of folks wrap like that.
I have found the best results with soaking wet patches in the cigarette roller.
Good wraps, a little dry perhaps. Mine shrink so even the detail in what is left in the lube groove shows.
Not a bad start.
Try some wrapping them soaking wet in the roller. Watch the shrink.
Mine get quite hard when dry.

outdoorfan
08-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Ah-ah!
How wet are those patches when you roll them?
My leading edge on my patches is shrunk right down on the ogive. On the .30, yours is in a straight line.
I put my patches soaking wet on the apron of the roller when I wrap.
Also, the folded base on the .30 in the lower, I prefer longer tails that I twist.
It does look like the patches are too dry when you wrap them. On the larger calibers, and BP loads, a lot of folks wrap like that.
I have found the best results with soaking wet patches in the cigarette roller.
Good wraps, a little dry perhaps. Mine shrink so even the detail in what is left in the lube groove shows.
Not a bad start.
Try some wrapping them soaking wet in the roller. Watch the shrink.
Mine get quite hard when dry.


I'm not not sure you're quite seeing that wrap on the ogive correctly. The leading edge actually is quite well shrunken down onto the ogive. I wrap them soaking wet like you do. I believe both boolits have .004 computer paper on them.
The '06 boolit does for sure. So, perhaps there is some fault at the base of the boolit. Maybe someone else can also comment on this.

303Guy
08-11-2009, 10:12 PM
outdoorfan, are you sure the lead flakes are from the patched boolits? It could be lead sitting in the rifling corners. I had that. After each firing, more lead flakes would come out. After my last PP shooting session, the bore was shiny and clean and the cleaning wad came out clean!

outdoorfan
08-11-2009, 11:12 PM
303guy,

I don't think so because I've shot perhaps 50 or more pp by now in the '06 and maybe 30 in the .223. The leading never gets any better, and the more shots that were fired before cleaning, the more lead that came out on the cleaning patches.

Anyhow, I'm not sure I want to continue this pp venture at the present moment. I may pick it up again after awhile. Still, I wish I knew why both bores lead with conventional and pp. Might be the same thing causing them both, for all I know. Maybe after things clean up better, I'll see a reduction in the leading. Then I might be inclined to give the pp another go.

BTW, I did get some decent accuracy from some of the 3-shot groups that were fired. I know I got some sub-minute groups from that 195 grain boolit at 2,550-2,600 fps. I also got pretty good accuracy (at times) at around 2,300. Problem was that the loads were inconsistent. I think I'll play around with it after this fall is over. I need a reliable load right now, and I think I've found it with conventional boolit loads. I want to hunt with the '06 with cast this year.

yondering
08-12-2009, 12:55 AM
The leading shows up as the first two dry patches I run through the bores are really black and greasy, sometimes with some flakes on them. I assume that's lead. I don't know what else it would be.

Might that just be powder fouling? What powder are you using? Any lead flakes coming off should be grey or silver colored, not black. If you're getting silver slivers on your patch, that's lead. Black flakes, I'd say that's just powder fouling. Don't worry about it, just keep shooting.

outdoorfan
08-12-2009, 08:49 AM
Might that just be powder fouling? What powder are you using? Any lead flakes coming off should be grey or silver colored, not black. If you're getting silver slivers on your patch, that's lead. Black flakes, I'd say that's just powder fouling. Don't worry about it, just keep shooting.

Well, you just might be right. I'll look closer at the cleaning patch next time I clean. I'm using H4350 in the '06 and H4895 in the .223. I do think I got some flakes when I first started shooting boolits 2 months ago, but I don't think I've seen any for quite awhile now. Last night after having fired 10 shots out of the
'06 at the range, I cleaned the rifle. I did things a little bit differently. I've been using a brush with copper scrubber stuff on it to scrape the lead out before moving on to the other brush with solvent and another patch with JB. Well, this time I didn't do the copper scrubber 'till after the other brush and the JB, plus cleaning that gunk and out and drying the bore real well. The goal was to see if the copper brush would then pick up any more fouling after the bore was supposedly "clean".
To make sure it was a good test, I put new copper scrubber on the brush and also cleaned the brush with carb cleaner. The result was that it seemed to pick up just a tad more fouling 'cause the next Kroil-soaked patch was discolored, but not really badly.

So, in order for the fouling to be lead fouling, it has to come off in flakes. Is that right?

If the bore is indeed leading, it is not bad enough to hinder accuracy after 20-25 rounds at 2,300 fps.

docone31
08-12-2009, 09:38 AM
Hmmmm.
Perhaps in a way I am spoiled. When ever I get a new to me rifle, or try a new load, I always smear some valve lapping compound on my rounds. Not much, but a little on all of them. I do not even try to get results untill I have fired at least 10.
My bores shine!
When I first started paper patching, I got lousey groups. I mean lousey! I am talking about 20 minutes of berm at 100yds! I would aim at my target, and get a sand cloud three stands over, and 10t high! Next one would be in the other direction just as bad.
I smeared some lapping compound on, just to clear anything in there, and got a group with that! That never happens with any grit in the bore for me! I got the next sizer die up, in this case it was with my .303 British. I was useing Meade Traceing Paper, sizeing to .308 and wrapping. I got .3135 as final diameter. I switched to computer paper, got .318-.319 as final diameter, sized to .314 and got groups. Bingo!
With my .30s, I sized to .308, wrapped with computer paper, sized to .309. Got groups.
The crud you are getting from your barrel, might be lead/powder fouling. When I fire grit loads, it removes everything, including hammer marks in the bore from making the barrel. I do not use a lot of lapping compound, just enough to make the round grey. I prefer the finer grits as I do not want to open up the bore any more than I have to.
Perhaps, the entry gets polished also. I know any machine marks, or feathers, also go away.
From that point, cleaning is a snap. I do get black on my patches, and I am not that picky about a pristine bore. I leave my oiled bore alone. I used to wax my bore. Too much moisture here, oil attracts moisture. Oil floats on water.
Now, I just clean it pretty well, goop it up, and leave it be.
I had gotten my wife a nice Dikkert Plains Rifle, with RUST in the tube. I cast some R.E.A.L.s, lubed with lapping compound, and fired a few. Now the bore patch slides down the tube without any felt resistance. Patches go down the tube real nicely also.
Maybe I have been lucky, but that works for me.

outdoorfan
08-12-2009, 10:45 AM
I actually did pretty much the same thing with 10 pp boolits with some 320 grit (I think I mentioned that in my first post). I throated the '06 with a .310 reamer. Well, my .310 boolits wouldn't fit (too tight). So, that's why I did the lapping boolits to open up the throat a tad and smooth those tooling marks too. It seemed to have worked because I can now easily chamber the .310 boolit, and accuracy is good. :-D

montana_charlie
08-12-2009, 12:46 PM
I've been using a brush with copper scrubber stuff on it to scrape the lead out before moving on to the other brush with solvent and another patch with JB. Well, this time I didn't do the copper scrubber 'till after the other brush and the JB, plus cleaning that gunk and out and drying the bore real well. The goal was to see if the copper brush would then pick up any more fouling after the bore was supposedly "clean".
A brush with 'copper scrubber stuff' doesn't sound like something that would work well on lead.

Are you using JB every time you clean the bore?

Lead deposited in a bore by simply shooting will normally come out as shiney flakes (or short strings) on a patch. The point is the particles shine.

Leading that has been 'ironed into the pores' of a barrel may come out as grey smears on a patch...especially if it is 'old' enough to have oxidized while in the bore. If a bore has enough 'texture' to call it a bit rough, it may lead a fair amount. Trying to 'shoot the leading out' with copper bullets is a good way to 'iron it into the pores' of a rough bore.

If you think you have lead in the bore, try some Kroil, or pure gum turpentine.
Run a saturated patch through and let it soak as long as your patience will allow.
Then ram a tight Kroil patch through the bore. Tight enough that you have to really lay into it...or thump it with a rubber mallet.
If the patch squeals as it goes through, that's a good sign. Any lead in there should wind up on the patch...but repeat the process to be sure you're done.

I will never pass a bronze brush through any rifle bore that I consider 'good enough' for cast bullets...

If you are shooting smokeless powder, I don't know how you can get powder fouling that is 'black and greasy'.

CM

yondering
08-12-2009, 12:54 PM
I've been using a brush with copper scrubber stuff on it to scrape the lead out before moving on to the other brush with solvent and another patch with JB.

FYI, if your paper patches are working correctly, you shouldn't need do use all that stuff for cleaning the bore. Just a little Hoppes #9 on a patch to cut the powder fouling, then dry patch, and you're done. One of the joys of paper patching. The paper doesn't foul the bore, so all you have to remove is powder residue.

If you are using JB every time you clean, that may be what the "black and greasy" stuff is on your patches. It's good stuff, but you really shouldn't need it with paper patch rounds.

outdoorfan
08-12-2009, 02:20 PM
I got the idea for the copper scrubber stuff from Veral, Beartooth, and several other people that have praised its use. Yes, I am using a bronze bore brush. I know some say they would never use one. My question is why are they promoted for cleaning the bore if they are abusive to the bore. I would be curious to know of true stories of people that have ruined their bores with bronze brushes.

I'm pretty confident I'm not leaving JB residue in the bore. I run two wet patches of Kroil (it's what I use for a solvent) after the JB.

I have another cleaning session coming up here pretty quick, so I'll pay extra attention to what that "black and greasy" stuff really looks like.

montana_charlie
08-12-2009, 04:02 PM
I got the idea for the copper scrubber stuff from Veral, Beartooth, and several other people that have praised its use.
I would expect they praised it for removing copper deposits.
Carburetor is highly praised for removing gasoline varnish, but it's not what you pick for a ketchup stain on the front seat.

Yes, I am using a bronze bore brush. I know some say they would never use one. My question is why are they promoted for cleaning the bore if they are abusive to the bore. I would be curious to know of true stories of people that have ruined their bores with bronze brushes.
I don't know of anyone who has ruined a bore with bronze brushes, but here is my take on the subject...
Bronze is a bit harder than copper, but not as hard as steel. Back when there were no chemicals that could dissolve copper, it was about the only way to get copper fouling out of a bore.

Today we have copper-dissolving chemicals, and...guess what...bronze contains copper. If you are using a chemical to dissolve fouling, and using a brush to scrub it, aren't you also adding copper from the brush into the solution?
I don't know the facts of that, but it sounds logical (and ineffective) to me.

On the other hand, we all know that a bore should be clear of copper before shooting cast bullets in it. If the bore collects lead, tight patches will pull it out in most cases. If something more is required...there are chemicals.
I see no use in introducing copper into a cast bullet bore by running bronze through it...and then needing chemicals to remove the copper.

And, finally...
We don't hear recommendations to use bronze to clean our moulds. Some are okay with brass, but not bronze. And, the mould is not polished to the degree of a match bore.
When I look through a bore that is like a mirror because it has been finished to 'match' quality, I can't stand the thought of passing a 'wire brush' of any kind over that surface...period.

CM

outdoorfan
08-12-2009, 04:25 PM
I would expect they praised it for removing copper deposits.

CM


Actually, it is for the purpose of removing lead. I'm surprised you hadn't heard that before.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,169398.0.html

Fourth post down.


Now, I made sure all traces of copper fouling were removed before I shot any lead in the bore, and I only use Kroil as a solvent. Of course, I used Sweets to get the copper out, but now it's just Kroil.

yondering
08-12-2009, 07:36 PM
I would expect they praised it for removing copper deposits.
Carburetor is highly praised for removing gasoline varnish, but it's not what you pick for a ketchup stain on the front seat.

CM

CM, he's talking about chore-boy type copper scrubbing pads, not copper solvent.
Those are THE thing to use for lead removal, no doubt about it. In my Ruger 45 Colt, that's the only cleaning my barrel ever gets; a bronze brush wrapped in a chore-boy strip. Takes out all the lead, but not the helpful lube residue.

outdoorfan
08-13-2009, 06:30 PM
So, after another cleaning session, I haven't seen any shiny particles on the patch. I think the greasy stuff is mainly lube and powder residue. Should have known that before, but I just needed to take a closer look at it.

yondering
08-13-2009, 08:02 PM
Are you lubing your paper patches? That will probably leave a little more "dark and greasy" powder fouling.

I've been shooting mine dry, although they go through the sizer a lot easier with a little case sizing wax. Seems like the accuracy is better dry, but I'm still experimenting with that.

outdoorfan
08-13-2009, 09:44 PM
I actually haven't shot any pp in a couple of weeks. I was referring to my recent experiences shooting conventional. However, when I shot the pp loads, the results were the same. And, yes, I was lubing the patched boolits.

docone31
08-13-2009, 09:56 PM
I think that is a mistake lots of folks do.
I observed, when I added lube to the patch after sizeing, the patch loosened up. It pulled away from the ogive and the base itself got too soft to remain intact during firing.
I lightly use Auto Wax just prior to sizeing. The sizeing die squeegees off most of the lube. I leave it alone from there. Even if I use too much lube during sizeing, I noticed the patch loosened up. If I just lightly waxed it, then sized, it gave the patch an hard appearance.
Sizeing aside, I have rolled up some pretty crappy patches. I mean out of line paper, way too high, way too low, all manner of stuff. Some of my tails tear halfway through from a feather from first sizeing. Knowing the defects prior to shooting, I still got very acceptable groups.
Many of my .30cal patches are not lubed. They also performed very well.
Useing the Auto Wax I do, they dry very quickly after sizeing. The inner layers are not affected. The wax allows the loads to slide into the case easily, and the neck tension alone holds the load in place in the magazine during firing. I have not had any loose boolitts since I got my dies modified.
I sent my patches into Lee with my Dies and they made the dies fit my patched boolitts. That was the end of my loose and deformed patches. Even wrapped sloppily, they chambered well, and grouped well.
Mind you, I am not against equal competitors at a long range. Minor deviations do not really show up at 100yds vs., at 800, or 1000. I am not sure I could hit that far. However, lubeing the patches might just be the issue here.
The patches looked good, the rifles are similiar to what I use, the loads were close.
After sizeing, I do not lube again. The paper makes the friction offsett.

outdoorfan
08-13-2009, 11:19 PM
Thanks, docone31. Just to be clear, I was lubing before the final sizing.

303Guy
08-14-2009, 07:00 AM
Interesting about the lube loosening the patches. I haven't found that but I have only used 'waxy-lube' and STP and also castor oil. The STP seems to give the cleanest bore - its only what gets picked up from my case lube pad. I use 'waxy-lube' to form a wad and to hold the boolit in the neck. it does seem to reduce boolit base distortion on firing. I can't say what it does for accuracy.

barrabruce
08-14-2009, 09:27 AM
Glad you mentioned the lossening of the auto wax patches.
I tried a few with a bit...rubbed it in and yes they seemed to stay greesy and when sloppy n stuff too. Just a widdle bit gave the paper a shiney hard look and no troubles loading.

Good stuff in this thread..Have learnt a bit more...

Grasshopper