DEATH by brake cleaner!!!

[Edubya]

The following site is about welding and using brake cleaner to clean the iron: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm
There is a lesson to be learned for us too. I have often used brake cleaner to clean a mould. I've been lucky!
EW

[3006guns]

So have I along with a host of other cleaning jobs........but always outside as the smell told me it was not nice stuff.

I had an incident with the old style super glue years ago. Used it to attach a front sight instead of soldering...clever...until I noticed it was crooked. Since I knew that most glues loose their bond with heat, I merrily heated it with a propane torch and got a minor whiff of smoke in my nose. Next thing I know, I'm on the shop floor gasping for air with the torch (still lit) rolling around next to me. I recovered within a few minutes, but learned later that super glue will release a form of cyanide gas when heated. Not smart!

[blaser.306]

One of our branch shops had a fatality linked to chlorinated brake cleaner and welding so do take precautions !!!!

[alor_swe]

In the article it was stated that it was a mix of excessive heat, brake cleaner and argon gas that made the gas deadly.
Cleaning molds with brake cleaner should not be an issue other than the common hazards of inhaling solvents. I have never used argon while casting nor ever been casting in an argon rich environment.

[Bill*]

I ran out of carb cleaner and sprayed brake cleaner down the carb of a running lawn mower. The smoke that filled the garage was so bad, (not thick, just nasty), We couldn't go back in for about 1/2 an hour. The boss was right there and he had vision trouble the rest of the day

[StarMetal]

Unless I missed it phosgene gas was used a lot in WW I.

Joe

[GBertolet]

My cousin was a mechanic at a Dodge dealership. He came down with all kinds of cancers. His life has been a living hell for the last several years with remissions and reoccurances of the various cancers. With lots of missed work and hospital stays things have not been good. The cause was attributed it to brake cleaner exposure. In order to avoid additional exposure, he had to take a demotion from a highly paid mechanic to a parts delivery guy at the dealership, at half the pay. People have various degrees of resistance to cancer, determined mostly by genetics. Unfortunately his was low. Would an occasional use to clean a mold pose much risk? Probably not. I would still wear latex gloves and spray it outside to be sure.

[wiljen]

Argon has nothing to do with this. This is caused by the same reaction that causes chloroform to decompose. ANY Chlorinated Hydrocarbon in the presence of UV light can break down to Phosgene (COCl2). Arc-welding produces both heat and UV both of which speed the degradation process.

[dragonrider]

I used brake cleaner for the first time today to clean a mold, won't be using it again as the smell drove me to open both overhead doors in the garage. That stuff is horrible. Back to carb cleaner for me.

[alor_swe]

Unless I missed it phosgene gas was used a lot in WW I.

Joe

True. It is also used to make isocyanates, a pre stage to make plastics.

After some research on brake cleaners I found that there are errors in the article.
Tetrachloroethylene breaks down to form poisonous gas (phosgene) though heat, at temperatures greater than 600ºF (316ºC).

[high standard 40]

I'm not trying to diminish the caution suggested by this thread. The dangers can be real. But not all formulations of brake cleaners are the same. There was a move among several manufacturers to get away from chlorinated brake cleaner as long as 12 years ago. I was working in a Ford dealership at the time and chlorinated brake cleaner was phased out of their product line at that time. I just checked the can I have here of another brand and it says "non-chlorinated" on the label. As I said, proper cautions should apply when using any chemical. But the phosgene threat does not apply to all brake cleaners. However, they can still be dangerous in other ways. Read the label and use caution where indicated.

[stubshaft]

When I first started "wrenching" back in the day. The preferrd method of testing for leaks in the a/c was a flame test. You utilized a piece of metal attached to the burner of a propane torch. You then moved the flame close to the joints of the a/c system and if the flame turned purple it indicated a leak. If the flame turned purple you also just created phosgene gas and yes it is poisonous and was used in WWI and WWII

[softpoint]

There are other household cleaners that we don't normally use on gun related stuff that you don't want to mix either. Trying to remember, is it clorox and drano that are really bad?:neutral:

[Bill*]

I kinda remember hearing of a woman who almost gassed herself--believe she mixed bleach and ammonia in the toilet

[wallenba]

The old R-12 refridgerants in cars would kill quickly too if it came in cantact with flame.

[JesterGrin_1]

I used brake cleaner for the first time today to clean a mold, won't be using it again as the smell drove me to open both overhead doors in the garage. That stuff is horrible. Back to carb cleaner for me.

I would stay away from Carb Cleaner as it will leave a film behind where as Brake Cleaner will not.

So before all this gets blown up into something it is not I just have to say a few things lol. All things chemical should be used with caution as in read what it says on the container lol. But I have used Brake Clean for many many things for over 30 Years without problems. Now if you get too much on your hand and do not wipe it off soon it can burn people some or a bunch it all depends on the person. And yes use such items in a well vented area.

I know in this day and age many things are just blown wayyyyyyyyyyyyy out there. So with chemicals or heck just going down stairs or a simple walk just take it easy and think before jumping. As in this world we do not live in a padded area lol.

Wait the nice man with the white jacket just showed up and the Jello lol. :)

[Heavy lead]

The old R-12 refridgerants in cars would kill quickly too if it came in cantact with flame.

R-22 in residential will produce phosgene too, never got a huge dose when braizing linesets or fixing a coil, but it's some nasty sh$#. Another good reason to purge with dry nitrogen.:veryconfu

[Heavy lead]

I would stay away from Carb Cleaner as it will leave a film behind where as Brake Cleaner will not.

So before all this gets blown up into something it is not I just have to say a few things lol. All things chemical should be used with caution as in read what it says on the container lol. But I have used Brake Clean for many many things for over 30 Years without problems. Now if you get too much on your hand and do not wipe it off soon it can burn people some or a bunch it all depends on the person. And yes use such items in a well vented area.

I know in this day and age many things are just blown wayyyyyyyyyyyyy out there. So with chemicals or heck just going down stairs or a simple walk just take it easy and think before jumping. As in this world we do not live in a padded area lol.

Wait the nice man with the white jacket just showed up and the Jello lol. :)

Myself, I don't use either anymore, denatured alcohol by the gallon and a spray bottle work just as good or better without the stink and danger, and is a heck of a lot cheaper.

[JesterGrin_1]

Heavy Lead I am sure it is cheaper. But not sure if it does nearly as good as Brake Clean as I keep a few bottles around for my automotive work at home. I use it a bunch lol. :)

Just finishing up a complete rear suspension rebuild on a Big Block 73 Corvette. New Posi unit with all new spiders with 3.73 Gear, Rebuilt trailing arms and spindle bearings along with brakes, Poly Swing Arm bushings, And replaced the diff rubber snubber bushing with a solid aluminum piece along with cross member aluminum locaters. This is to tighten everything up. So I do keep a bit of brake cleaner around for some odd reason lol. All new U joints as well. Will not even go into what a pain they are lol. And the Spring is a custom VBP 520 LBS Spring. Note here do not use this spring for a daily driver unless you have at least 600HP plus.
Sorry for the Mess lol.

I call this my life long go to jail do not pass go project lol. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0026.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0022.jpg

[Echo]

Wow! That rear end looks just like the ones on my old Corvairs (except for the leaf spring)!

[shotman]

I thought that the TCE was banned guess not

[hamour]

Most chemical plants let employees bring home organic acid vapor masks for home projects free of charge, also chemical resistant gloves. If you know some one who works in a plant see if he can bring you some ppe home for use. The mask and gloves will protect you from exposure but not from low oxygen environments. So use the chemicals outside!

Methyle ethyl keytone (MEK) is a great cleaner and is available in paint stores or departments. Cleans up any grease and evaporates quickly, but is flamable and toxic, use with proper ppe outside. In plants we use it to clean material for pure o2 service, so it has to leave no residue. but once again do not use it in an enclosed area or with out proper personal protective equipment (PPE).

Take care and use your PPE!

[1hole]

"believe she mixed bleach and ammonia in the toilet..."

Yeah, that's the bad two.

[nicholst55]

I agree that brake cleaner is some nasty stuff. I also agree that it's probably foolish to use chlorinated brake cleaner when it's a well known carcinogen. FWIW, your local Home Depot (and Harbor Freight) sells respirators for around $35 - just be certain to buy the correct type. They also sell nitrile gloves.

Reluctant to spend $35? What's your health worth? I'm terminally cheap, but I bought one.

[watkibe]

For the small amount of gun maintenance and tinkering I do, a can of brake cleaner and a can of compressed air is like having a degreasing tank and an air compressor right in my apartment ! All the brake cleaners I see in auto parts stores these days are non-chlorinated. And why do you have to clean bullet molds anyway ? If you use aluminum molds, you want the cavities to have a thin layer of soot (carbon); other than that, the only thing that goes into the molds is molten lead. Once I have flamed my molds and they are casting well, I leave them alone. How do molds get dirty ?

[lylejb]

I thought that the TCE was banned guess not

The old brake clean, as in 20 years ago, was TCE. That's TRI-chloroethane, the stuff that worked well with alot less hazzards.

when the enviro waco's started screaming about TCE, The brake clean manufactures started trying different formulas to replace it. for a while, it seemed like every maker had a different recipe. Some was TETRA-chloroethylene ( tri= 3 chlorenes, tetra= 4 ), some was alcohol, some was actetone, some was heptane, some was just about anything under the sun.

I've been a professional mechanic for 20 years, I've used a ton of brakeclean over the years (probably literally). Yes, you should use REASONABLE care. No, you shouldn't panic. Use outdoors, or with good ventilation if in a shop. No bio-warfare suit needed.

Honestly, i worry more about the FIRE hazzard more than anything else. Many replacement formulas are flamable.

my .02 worth

LB

[Shiloh]

Great Article!! Thanks

[Lunk]

There are other household cleaners that we don't normally use on gun related stuff that you don't want to mix either. Trying to remember, is it clorox and drano that are really bad?:neutral:

Well lets see if I can remember. Clorox and bleach makes a nice cloud of chlorine gas that will kill you. (and how many people know someone who tried this to get there tub really white? show of hands please)
Lime away and bleach will do the same.

Red devil lye releases allot of hydrogen gas when used. Used to make exploding balloons that way.

Ammonium and Iodine makes a really nasty and highly unstable explosive.

I can't remember much else offhand. I've just learned NOT to mix anything other than water with the stuff I clean with.

[EDG]

For any of you guys that smoke you take a huge risk with many chemicals.
The 1300° of the glowing cigarette is hot enough to convert many chemicals into poison gas.

[Char-Gar]

I cleaned a mold with Brake Cleaner and somehow my 14 week old kitten Beamer injested some of it. He became paralized in his hind legs. Thanks to a very good vet and some good luck he pulled through and is fine. That was two years ago. Last time I will ever have a can of that stuff on my property.

[oldoak2000]

I had two 'unopened' cans of O'Reily brand brake cleaner decide to 'completely empty themselves' in my garage sometime over the night. Even though there was nothing sitting on top of them, and I had never taken the cover top off. Apparently, the solvent 'ate' thru some part of plastic in the valve over time . . . . (and we're talking within a month or two of when I bought them). I had bought a total of three cans and only used about half of one, but after the first one did that, I relocated ALL of them to a shed in the back yard, away from the house. The remaining ones 'vented' themselves as well over the next week or two . .

Fortunately, I don't have a gas water-heater or open-flame anything like that in my garage, like many do. Kablammo!

BE CAREFUL about storing ANY flammable liquid or aerosol in a closed-up garage, especially if it is attached to your house!!!

[nicholst55]

Well lets see if I can remember. Clorox and bleach makes a nice cloud of chlorine gas that will kill you.

I can't remember much else offhand. I've just learned NOT to mix anything other than water with the stuff I clean with.

Liquid Clorox and ammonia (in any form - even urine) will release chlorine gas, which is what bleach is/was initially made from.

Not mixing chemicals with anything, perhaps unless you're a chemist, is excellent advice!

[Bloodman14]

We had a guy (IDIOT) who decided to clean the nozzle-dip gel off of the fixture he was using with most of a can of brake cleaner, and before it dried, LIT AN ARC(!), and the whole shebang HIM INCLUDED burst into flames! We tackled him to the ground, and put him out, and he got his butt chewed off. What is the first warning on the can? "CAUTION: Contents flammable! Keep away from open flame, or sparks!"
That being said, I use it to clean/degrease my guns, too!

[inuhbad]

I always cast with a full NBC Gas Mask on so the fumes are a non-issue.

I've got enough lung problems with a handicap & asthma - I don't need to compound it with arsenic, lead, and tetracarbon fumes too.

[Oldtimer]

I have been using starting fluid (ether) to clean the oil off my molds before starting a casting session. Works great, and does'nt seem to leave any residue. I know it's very flamable. I go outside, give it a quick spray (downwind). stuff evaporates almost on contact, so it is dry in a second or two. Have had no problems so far. Bob

[PatMarlin]

I'm a fan of Liquid Wrench in the blue can- Non flamable for many uses. It preserves battery and auto contacts from corrsion like nothing I've ever seen.

Well earlier this year I was using it on a rag to cleanup my Bridgeport in my unfinished shop with half the walls not finished- well ventilated. Most of the day scrubbing and wiping til I started to get a bit dizzy so I quit.

An hour latter it felt like I drank a case of beer with the room spinning. I had a headache and kept feeling like I was drunk, but not a good drunk- a sic drunk all night and a hang over the next morning. Seriously poisoned myself.

[LeadThrower]

Liquid Clorox and ammonia (in any form - even urine) will release chlorine gas, which is what bleach is/was initially made from.

Not mixing chemicals with anything, perhaps unless you're a chemist, is excellent advice!

The nasty stuff you smell when you mix chlorine oxidizers such as bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and ammonia is actually a mixture of chloramines. Nasty things, those. They're classified as carcinogens, are quite reactive (with your mucous membranes, lungs, etc.), and are toxic in high doses.

+1 to the various advices given of "don't know? don't mix!"

To that I would add: don't mix unintended conditions with any commercial/industrial product (such as heat, pressure, etc.)

[Marvin S]

Good info to just refresh a persons awareness. Being in the military for many years we used lots of nasty but affective stuff such as MEK, Carbon Tet, MIK. After knowing that MEK stores up in ones liver through the skin I avoid the stuff. I also have use many cans of the chlorinated brake cleaner mostly on automotive work. I would not buy the non chlorinated kind as it would not dry. As I get older about all I use is either alcohol or Stoddard solvent as it is in my parts cleaning tank. I do alot of welding and use either a glass bead blaster or alcohol to prep parts.

[PatMarlin]

The only auto degreaser and cleaner I use now is the Non toxic Purple stuff they sell at walmart. That stuff works great, and serioulsy cleans aluminum. It eats up grease on equipment like gangbusters. It laughs at brake dust.

Can add it to the laundry as well.

[7of7]

I kinda remember hearing of a woman who almost gassed herself--believe she mixed bleach and ammonia in the toilet

My dad almost gassed himself... thought of the same thing to speed up cleaning and stripping a floor...

[jmort]

"I have been using starting fluid (ether) to clean the oil off my molds before starting a casting session."

As i mentioned earlier in the thread, I use starter fluid as a parts cleaner, but I would never use on a mold as starter fluid has some lubricant in it so you are not "dry starting" an engine. Upper cylinder engine lubricant.

[Catshooter]

I have read of this warning several times over the years.

But, I've never heard of anyone actually dying because of it. And you'd think you'd would as phosgene is indeed a very deadly gas.

Just saying.


Cat

[Powersgt]

I have used a host of cleaners over the years as a mechanic, I cant imagine what I have done to my lungs; brake clean is one of the worst ones. My co-worker set his safety glasses down when we where cleaning a big CAT in a locomotive; brake clean hit his lenses and they immediately frosted white. Then when he was cleaning in side the oil pan, he darn near suffocated from the fumes. I have gone to using acetone in a well ventilated area to clean my molds (still really nasty stuff.)

[13Echo]

I clean my moulds with hot water, liquid dish soap and a tooth brush. Get the water hot, put some soap on the bush and scrub the mould thoroughly. Repeat. Dry the mould with dish or paper towels and if hot enough it will finish dry itself. Preheat the mould over a hot plate while the lead is melting and you won't have a problem with water flashing to steam and the mould will be up to casting temperature for the first bullet. Safe! Non-toxic! No storage problems! No worries about poisoning cats, children, and yourself! No fireballs! Non-carcinogenic!

Jerry Liles

[JesterGrin_1]

I clean my moulds with hot water, liquid dish soap and a tooth brush. Get the water hot, put some soap on the bush and scrub the mould thoroughly. Repeat. Dry the mould with dish or paper towels and if hot enough it will finish dry itself. Preheat the mould over a hot plate while the lead is melting and you won't have a problem with water flashing to steam and the mould will be up to casting temperature for the first bullet. Safe! Non-toxic! No storage problems! No worries about poisoning cats, children, and yourself! No fireballs! Non-carcinogenic!

Jerry Liles

Sounds good but you are removing all the FUN lol. Except for the Danger to others and pets. But everyone needs a Fireball now and then lol.

But I have been using Brake Cleaner for probably 40 years for many things Including brakes. But Safety was pretty common knowledge I guess. As in not to use in an enclosed space or near a flame.

[starmac]

I buy brake cleaner by the case and use it pretty regularly, my one and only gripe is the price of it. lol I also use a lot of starting fluid to clean stuff with.
Something has to eventually kill me, if it is stuff that makes life easier, so be it. lol

[Wally]

CRC makes a Chlorinated and non-chlorinated product...in my area they cost the same. It comes in a Green print can...the Chlorinated is in the familiar red print can. Perhaps we should all be using the the non-chlorinated product.

http://crcindustries.com/auto/?s=05088

I find Brake cleaner better than carb cleaner for cleaning bullet molds.

[CGT80]

CRC makes a Chlorinated and non-chlorinated product...in my area they cost the same. It comes in a Green print can...the Chlorinated is in the familiar red print can. Perhaps we should all be using the the non-chlorinated product.

http://crcindustries.com/auto/?s=05088

I find Brake cleaner better than carb cleaner for cleaning bullet molds.

We have both the red and green cans in SoCal, but they are both non-chlorinated and both work the same. I don't understand why we have two options. There are no chlorinated cleaners that I have seen in California, so we may have a law against them for all I know.