Saga of a Snider carbine

[Buckshot]

................A friend of mine had a Snider carbine (cut down 3 band) surplus to his needs and he figured since I'd mentioned I'd like to try and make a SNider action, that I must like them. So he gave it to me. All donations greatfully recieved, HA!

The barrel was loose from the action but it was complete with the exception of the screw holding on the hammer. An issue is that whoever shortened the barrel managed to turn a wire edge up into the barrel atthe muzzle. Plus the crown was rather casual.

http://www.fototime.com/E1B0A510755C5AA/standard.jpg

So I chucked the barrel breech up and ran the other end in the steady rest to cut the crown. NOT!! I'd spent a bit of time getting the barrel to run true and it was out .003". Or egg shaped that amount, but that was the best I could do. Checking it with a mike proved it so.

However it was then I looked at the bore at the muzzle as it spun and the bore was doing it's own thing! :-) . A .578" pingage was a very snug fit so I ran a TI on it and the bore is .018" off, with the outside of the barrel running true (True minus the .003" issue mentioned). Gadzooks! I wonder if the bore had just wandered all over down the 39" barrel of the original 3 band, or what?

http://www.fototime.com/2EA7811332414BE/standard.jpg

The heck with the steady! Using it was out of the question. I have a 3/4 deadcenter (so I could get in to do the crown) but I figured running those lands and grooves over it wouldn't be best. I decided to turn a mandrell, which is being done in the photo. I used brass as I wanted a good snug fit (drive in type snug). Not shown was that I later cut shallow grooves around it so I could oil it before driving it in.

http://www.fototime.com/54B2534F933B3AD/standard.jpg

Here it is after being pressed into the barrel. It's drilled to run on a live center in the tailstock. Right there at the muzzle it's relieved so I can get a bitty tool in there to champher the muzzle. Getting it all set up and the breech end chucked up, it was again no bueno pro ca-ca! DRAT!

http://www.fototime.com/B9C212977516E0D/standard.jpg

With the breech end chucked up on the barrel threads, the muzzle was STILL wiggling around a little. Oh yeah, to go with how the rest of everything was going, when I put a bit of pressure on the brass mandrel with the tailstock, it got shoved in a bit more. No big, as I could cut another relief, but still ..............

http://www.fototime.com/FCC9D40B7D9B1FF/standard.jpg

So I took off the chuck and replaced it with a faceplate and a deadcenter to run IN THE CHAMBER instead of the breech threads. After this was done, the thing ran pretty good. Not perfect but only about a thou and a half off. I suppose when you consider that the barrel started out as a flat sheet of iron that was forged aorund a mandrel (by hand) then the seam forge welded by a steam hammer, then bored, then rifled 145 years ago a couple thou might not be a big deal, HA!

Anyway, I got it re-crowned a lot better then before that's for sure. I'll have some more later, on the saga.

....................Buckshot

[Linstrum]

Hi, Buckshot, looks like your doin' pretty good! I'll tell ya what, when you chuck up most any old production line military contract barrel like that in the lathe and spin it while looking down the bore, it'll make you dizzy :veryconfu when you see all the crooks, kinks, bends, and corkscrewing-around the bore does! Modern barrel factories have a guy who spends all day straightening barrel bores with an optical bore alignment scope and a big hand operated press. The barrels that don't need straigtening go into a special stack that is slated for making match grade barrels. Barrels that are straightened have a "memory" of their original shape and when they become heated they tend to change back temporarily, so straightened barrels are no good AT ALL for match shooting where the barrels get hot. This is the reason why match grade barrels are not straightened. I suppose for hunting purposes where only two or three shots get fired before the animal [smilie=w: is taken or escapes, not enough heat gets generated to seriously deform a straightened barrel to the point of uselessness - - - unless shooting something that burns over 75 grains of IMR4831 or IMR7828. Some straigtening jobs are worse than others, though, my first Springfield M1A was so bad that after firing one shot, at 100-yards the next shot was over to the left THREE FEET! That one went back to the Springfield factory as fast as I could it boxed up and into UPS's hands.

I recently re-crowned the barrel in my Walther P-1 9mm and I pretty much had to jump through the same hoops you did to finally get it chucked up and running true enough to do some good before the lathe tool bit ever touched the muzzle. That barrel is only 4-1/2 inches long, too! Arghhh! The things a gunsmith has to go through!

[StarMetal]

Did you two look at those gunsmith videos that I posted the website to about barrels?

Joe

[versifier]

As Linstrum said, you get a lot of runout in barrels, the longer, the more likely, too. It happens when the driller is trying to get a few more done before stopping to resharpen the deep hole drill. When we were doing 17" blanks for a certain popular handgun, we had a reject rate of around 2% that didn't pass inspection on the way to the reamer. After reaming, they were gauged for size, then all blanks were thoroughly cleaned (by hand, with patches!) before being sprayed with the teflon lube and buttoned. Sometimes you'd catch one or two that were noticably off center, but that wasn't too often if the one doing the first inspection was having a good day. The m/l barrels got a smooth button to uniform them before the rifling was cut.
I straightened a lot of m/l barrels, though most just needed a minor tweak. You don't need any fancy optics for doing it, just a good light source and some practice, but the smallest diameter I had to do was .36cal - it might be more difficult with smaller bores. Looking down a straight barrel, there is an optical illusion that occurs which looks like a ringed target. When there's a bend anywhere along it, the "bull's eye" looks off center. You learn to focus at different depths and the illusion changes as you do. The straightener we had looked like it was a medieval torture device in its first life, but in reality was WWI-II vintage for Springfield and Garand barrels. When we did any contouring (seldom as most of the cf barrels we sold were rifled blanks) it was always done between centers. Many of the handgun barrels we made were drilled, reamed, and rifled as long blanks up to 36" intended to be chopped into lengths by the factory.
I have read that in the gearing up for WWI arms production, the spindle speeds of the deep hole drills were increased significantly, which not only speeded up production, but also reduced the runout and reject rate considerably. I assume that these advances might have been parelleled by similar ones in Germany and England, but before that, barrel making was more of an art than a science, and some runout was acceptable and unavoidable.

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Versifier & Joe, how ya'll doin'?

Versifier, thanks for the rundown on barrel run-out, that is interesting stuff! I had a great uncle who worked in both the barrel making and cartridge manufacturing industries in Salt Lake City, Utah, during World War Two, and he told me a lot about how those things were done. I made a few rifled barrels on simple machinery I added onto my lathe quite a few years back, but it was just too much work compared to what I could buy them for if I looked around long enough for a bargain - - - I just picked up 22 new and once-fired muzzle loader barrels for $10 each. They are .50 and .54 cal made by Green Mountain, 11 are carbine and 11 are pistol barrels.

Hey, Joe, I didn't see the gunsmithing videos you posted about, I don't know where they are at. Tell us where they're at, I'd sure like to go check them out!

[RayinNH]

Linstrum, under "Special Projects" titled You Gunsmith Machinist.....
Ray

[versifier]

Linstrum,
Good haul! I wish to hell they'd advertise locally. How did you find out about them? I'm a former employee and live a mile down the gd road. Oh well, it's not like I don't have enough projects lined up and waiting. [smilie=1:
Doing anything longer than a few inches on a lathe is an exercise in frustration, the spindle speeds are much too slow. Deep hole drills for doing gun barrels run 5000+rpm. I can think of a couple of ways to cut the rifling on a regular lathe, like the custom made cut rifling machines and tooling that we used, but neither one would be easy. It's amazing what gunmakers of centuries back had to go through, and what "cottage industries" in places like the Phillipines do with treadle lathes and hand files. It boggles the mind.

[Catshooter]

But I had a barrel that I wanted to crown that was too big for my little bitty lathe, so I made a piloted cutter that I just chucked into a cordless drill and used it to crown with. The pilot was brass and was a slip fit in the bore.

I sure simpathize with all you went through on that Snider though Buckshot. Any further progress?


Cat

[Buckshot]

..............Yup, got her all ut back together! Gonna shoost it Tuesday if it isn't pouring rain! I have 60 rounds ready to go. I have 48 converted to 209 primers and 12 with those crappy CBC #56 Berdan primers (to be converted after firing).

http://www.fototime.com/35572699B1D8361/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/ADB3F97AF6FF404/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/1A15641CDD2AC93/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/AC3F7DCD86381F5/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/3C71A98B4860D99/standard.jpg


I have to admit to a bit of vanity as I fire blued the barrel band :-). Otherwise it's as-is. Has a nice bore. It's a 3 groove, slow twister (1-78).

I'll have to post some pic's of the ammo prep later.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Hey Buckshot, pretty cool rifle. Can't wait till you get your shooting report back.

Joe

[Dale53]

Modern barrel makers don't have everything "down pat" either. Friend of mine who does lots of gun work, had a little Anschutz sporter that he wanted to "lighten and shorten". He cut about four inches off the barrel and you wouldn't believe how far off center the bore was. You could see it from a "mile off". Really bad. I believe that he ended up turning the barrel in a "half thread" so that the high point was up. After the work the rifle shot well. Still looks a bit funny, tho"...

Dale53

[versifier]

It's not surprising. Barrels are cut to rough length, contoured between centers, then crowned and threaded. It may be done differently in some factories, but that's the best way to insure concentricity. Especially with a small bore (the lighter drill is more easily deflected and should be run at a higher speed to minimize the problem, but this is not always practical in a production setup) it can and will move around a bit inside the blank without any serious accuracy problems. But, when you shorten it, you no longer have it "between centers" and the bore can be off center. Normally you wouldn't know it as it would not be as noticable with a larger bore, and most aren't off very much. Generally speaking, as Linstrum pointed out, those with the least runout are put aside as higher grade. It is in my opinion probably more a function of a sharper drill than any other factor, but I was a machine operator, not an engineer. The old toolmaker that taught me pointed out that any operation performed on a chunk of steel relieves stresses in the structure, and he felt that "when you work on the inside, you should work on the outside" - that the contouring should be done asap after rifling. Even with a perfect blank, as the stresses relieve, it will twist and move a measurable amount. Contouring it soon after minimizes the effect, and of course rapid heat or cryo treatment negates it completely.
It sounds to me like that blank got by the inspectors, though. As long as it it carefully crowned with a piloted tool, it should still group well, and isn't a problem as long as the sights can be adjusted for the serious shift in point of impact. Very smart move to put the high point up BTW. I probably would have gotten all pissed off at it and had it rebarreled, then thought of it later. :mrgreen:

[bart55]

Just got a look at the snider looks alot like mine, have an origional carbine and am using turned brass cartriges , took a little time to get it to shoot but I found that any decent black powder load really does kind of whalop you on the back end also . get alot of looks when I take it to the range . good luck with the little cannon

[Buckshot]

...............I shot the little bruiser Tuesday! I only had 3 rounds loaded and fired one off and asked if anyone else would like to shoot it. Glen said he would, so he did. I'm danged if he didn't grab the last loaded round and shot it off too!!

I had big plans to get all the prepped cases loaded Monday but I just couldn't seem to get it together. I work nights and get off at 0600 Monday. Rather then burn a day off I stay up. Long about 1100 I begin to wear out and find myself sitting and staring :) Also I was running around in a couple different directions. I decided I needed some wad punches. One at .585" for the swaged slugs I had on hand and one at .595" for the boolits I would get from the NEW .595" swage die, whenever I got around to making it[smilie=b:

The slugs I had were only .582" as they are for a Colt's 2 band artillery carbine. But the fattest 58 calibers I could make. Due to the carbines slow 78" twist I used the lightest 58 cal slug I had. The Lee Target Minie'.

http://www.fototime.com/B35265B203A27EA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7BAE9A1545DD0FC/standard.jpg

They go in as on the left, and come out like on the right.

http://www.fototime.com/C43BADB9112AB8E/standard.jpg

Here's 3 in front of a couple rows of the Trash can Lee's on a lube pad.

So I started the wad punches making 2 bodies and danged if I didn't make the .595" one first! Now THAT is excellent planning. So I turned around and made the .585" one. By that time it was about 1100 so I decided to go to the Whoppertorium for a number 4, no tomato, extra onions diet Coke. I remembered then that I had forgotten to get cigarettes, so had to jump back in the car and head out after those. Not too bad ofr having been up since 1400 the day before.

So then I decided that I had to have a way to compress the powder charge and the filler. I sat down and sucked on the Coke and thought about how to do that. I hated it, but the only thing I could think of then was to make a powder compression die.

http://www.fototime.com/D41D95B7168B29D/standard.jpg

So here's the powder compression die, and a loaded round of 577 Snider to compare against the other 2 rounds. Making the compression die was to be simplicity itself. Interior finish was no big because nothing would touch it so I could just hog into it, to depth. That part was fine.

My first mistake was thread selection for the compression spindle. I used 5/8-11 when I should have gone with 5/8 - 18. The coarser thread works, it just looks wrong. My second mistake was thinking, "Okay, 5/8" that's .625" and the 2 compression heads will be .578" and .588" so they'll clear and I can just screw one out and another in."

Anyone see a problem yet? I did congratulate myself for thinking to make the heads a tad undersize so they wouldn't expand the casemouths any. I'm going along cutting threads on the compression spindle and then it dawns on me. The Male part of the 5/8" threads are .625" but the FEMALE part is substantialy less. No way am I gonna unscrew one and put in the other!

So I had to part off the head then centerdrill, drill and then tap the threaded spindle to take the compression head as a seperate piece! Then turn around and make both heads, centerdrill and drill and yadda, yadda, yadda. Eventually THAT got made. I ground a taper on the 1/4-28 stem of the compression head and then cut a screwdriver slot acrost the head. You flip the die over and drop the head in. Then stick in a screw driver and stand it up straight and screw the hed ontop the spindle. Sheesh! I'm beginning to run out of steam here and I haven't loaded the first cartridge yet. It's like 3 in the afternoon and I had to stop and haul the trash cans out to the street or sure as heck I'd forget.

So I'm back in the garage now and making wads from beer coasters. The neighbor (Ralf) hears the banging so he comes over wanting to know whats up and starts BSing about his son's new 4 month old Weimerimer (or however you spell the name of that purple German hunting dog). Okay, gray but they look purplish to me. Then Donna gets home and says she's going to start something or other for dinner and that was about it for me. I was toast. I loaded one round and called it quits.

Before heading to the range this AM I loaded the other 2 rounds. I used 85.0grs of Goex 1Fg and filled the balance of the case up with Cream of Wheat mixed 50/50 with more 1Fg BP. Thumbed in a cardwad and compressed it a good half inch. I didn't have a way to make lubewads (yet) so I used a screw driver to dig out some stiff BP lube into the casemouth and added another cardwad. Then I filled the base of the Minie' with lube and seated it.

The day was kind of dreary and overcast with a variable breeze from 3 (south) to about 6 (west) and threatening rain which arrived here about 6-ish this evening. When I fired it I got a really nice sharp BOOM, a neat longish red-orange flame and a satisfying shotgun type recoil from it. In a bit there was a thwack and a dark spot on the 200 meter berm. It still doesn't have a front sight on it. I was going to put a strip of metal and hose clamp it on to determine how high of one I needed, but with only 3 rounds, why bother? Besides Glen shot off my only other 2 rounds.

I decided when I got home from the range to begin making a .595" swage die. First I had to clean the little carbine, but first I had to finish cleaning a M38 Swede I had in the cradle and then something else, and someting else so it was sbout 3 before I got started.

http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpg

Here's a photo of the die body spinning and the form tool. I step drilled the major part of the metal out, which gave me a headache figuring THAT out plus being worried I'd screw it up. Happily it turned out well.

http://www.fototime.com/CFC43FFAA50298D/standard.jpg

The forming cutter. When the entire cutter is cutting you can only advance about .050" since you're cutting over such a large area. You generate lots of swarf and there's lots of pressure on the cutter. Especially being curved like that, so it's slow going. The last half inch is when the whole form tool is working so for a half inch in .050" increments, that's in and out 10 times. The infeed is about a thousandth every 8-10 seconds or so.

................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Buckshot,

Geez...I wish I had a lap top so I could read your wonderfuls story posts while I'm on the crapper. I don't mean that to discredit your story, but to actually praise you. They are better then Shooting Times or Guns & Ammo.

Boy you sure like those shoulder artilery pieces dont' ya.

Joe

[floodgate]

Buckshot:

I have the special oversized lyman minie' ball moulds #580213 and #585213 - new, or as-new (I've never castfrom either of them) - they are NOT for sale (I've had to replace too many moulds I had sold off - NEVER AGAIN!) - but I'd be happy to send them to you on indefinite "loan" if you'd like to try them out. I think I told yo about the fun I had with one of those little "boomers" - and didn't I send you some of my left-over bits and pieces awhile back? PM me if interested.

floodgate

[Cliff]

I wonder if the 577 Snider or Snyder was meant for a paper patched bullet. When the brits converted to the 577-450 they did use paper patched. This seemed to be a common way of doing it overseas at the time.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I paper patched the lyman minie new style up to .595 so as to shoot my Snyder MkII** carbine many years ago. I recall noticeably less than musket accuracy at 50 yards despite burning lots of powder playing. It was fun though. I also had an "everlasting" case with a tight fitting rim and a long nipple replacement for the firing pin that accepted caps so you could muzzle load a minie or cloth patched round ball. My old cases were converted to shotgun primers too. Probably the best lock of any I have ever had was on that gun. Regards, BvT

[Buckshot]

...............Floodgate, your offer of loaning the moulds is too kind. Normally a person would load their toothbrush or wife before loaning a mould they own :-). I have the new swage die about finished up now so I don't think those moulds need to make the trip to So. Cal, but I'm humbled by the offer.

I have the friend who sent me the Snider Carbine looking for Lyman moulds for paper patching. I'm afraid that a search for those would be long, boring and most likely fruitless. I have committed to trying my hand at making one or 2 for him when I get uncovered again.

And yes you did send me a bunch of Snider stuff a couple years ago. I need to pull it out again and re-discover what all was in there. I have your accompanying letter in there with it too.

.............Starmetal, thanks!

..............Cliff, "I wonder if the 577 Snider or Snyder was meant for a paper patched bullet?"

Nope. It was a much undersized bare (.564") Minie' in a brass foil Boxer cartridge, which the British also used for the 577-450 until the early 1880's. Technology for drawing brass just wasn't up to it until then. BTW, one way the 577-450 was done was to wrap the foil into a long straight case. The the reduced caseneck was formed with 4 collet type fingers pressing against a mandrel.

This left 4 brass 'ears' sticking out. These were merely rotationally folded flat against the caseneck, again against a mandrel. Guess precision caseneck clearance wasn't a mandatory requirement!

"................When the brits converted to the 577-450 they did use paper patched. This seemed to be a common way of doing it overseas at the time."

True. All major, and some not so major militaries of the day used PP'd boolits. Except for the American military. I suppose they figured accuracy was good enought without it, or cost was a consideration, or they just figured the troopers' free time could be well spent cleaning leaded bores!

..............B Von T, A friend of mine in Alabama sent me some Minie's intended for paperpatching for 58 cal rifles. I tried them in a superbly accurate Parker-Hale P58 Naval Pattern 2 band Enfield. These are 48" twist with progressive depth grooves in a barrel with heavier walls then the army rifles. I did not have a whole lot to practice with but initial results were much poorer then with naked slugs.

I thought that possible sealing issues might be the problem in the .015" deep grooves in the breech. I loaded dome pretty healthy loads with 2Fg powder and it did not seem to make much of a difference. I can't recall ever reading about any military ever using patched Minie's.

..................Buckshot

[Cliff]

The original 577 Enfield paper cartridges were made with the paper wrapped around the bullet with the base facing out. When loading they opened the twisted end, dumped the powder and then loaded the wrapped minie' bullet down the bore. Of course they were not too concerned with accuracy rather rate of fire was considered more important, I think. I do remember reading concerning the British using paper patched bullets in the 577-450 as you mentioned. They had a labor source of orphans who had nimble fingers and tiny hands to do this. They were the children of the soldiers who were killed in the service who had no one to take care of them. No judgement just interesting.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I was happy to hear about your carbine and that you are having better luck than I with mine. Mine was ex-Canadian RCMP. I patched the minies to get a good fit in the great big Mark II** bore and shoot it a bit. As far as I am aware yours appears to be a Mk II** from looking at the sight placement at the receiver and was made with a new barrel and updated action rather than the action being fitted to the original muzzleloading barrel, thus the larger bore hoping to accomodate great fouling. Thats the story I heard and I'm holding to it. And of course I never had any luck getting a patched minie to shoot well in a minie gun. Regards, BvT

[Buckshot]

.................The carbine shown has a MkII* action but the original P53 barrel. Three lands and grooves, 78" twist and progressive depth grooves. Land diameter is consistant at .578" from breech to muzzle. Normaly in the 39" barrel the grooves would be about .015" deep at the breech and .005" deep at the muzzle.

In this case with the bobbed off barrel, the grooves remain .015" at the breech (or about .603") and maybe .011" deep where the muzzle is now :-).

That's one of the reasons I needed to make the .595" swage die. Word is amongest the Snider illuminati that a .595" to .600" slug works best IF THE CHAMBER WILL ALLOW IT. Because of the time and technology level of the day, and because they were designed for the foil Boxer cartridge, chamber dimensions can be all over the place.

................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

.............I got the new improved fatter swage die completed. It produces a slug of .596" OD. I also made a radiused ejector pin in addition to the regular flat one, to make hollowpoints :-)

http://www.fototime.com/F50698BFD63638B/standard.jpg

This is all the ammo I have loaded up for tomorrow. I believe it's 48 rounds total. They're in 3 different boxes due to different loads, primers, and seniority. Those in the bottom left have never been fired and have the 209 primer. Upper right box were fired once but were just converted to the 209 primer. Upper left are some still primed with the soft #56 Berdan primers.

http://www.fototime.com/C641FA66BF72CFB/standard.jpg

The above are the newly swaged .596" Minie' slugs. Each is standing next to the slug it was swaged from. I made the cavity a bit deep, but I also fattened up the skirts. The one on the extreme lft is showing it's HP, which isn't really clear enough to mean anything in the photo.

.................Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

..............Yup, got her all ut back together! Gonna shoost it Tuesday if it isn't pouring rain! I have 60 rounds ready to go. I have 48 converted to 209 primers and 12 with those crappy CBC #56 Berdan primers (to be converted after firing). I have to admit to a bit of vanity as I fire blued the barrel band :-). Otherwise it's as-is. Has a nice bore. It's a 3 groove, slow twister (1-78).

I'll have to post some pic's of the ammo prep later.

...............Buckshot

I am interested in the idea of igniting a Black-powder rifle cartridge with the 209 primers. Have you any comparisons against the normal or berdan type primers?

Boxer was responsible for the design or improvements which resulted in the shotshell primers which we know today. Most of his original cartridges were ignited with this type of primer.

As the 577/450 Martini cartridge is based upon the 577 snyder case I have been interested in modifying several cases to run some comparisons.

Unlike some of the American cartridges which original had a primer pocket which intruded into the case, the boxer cases had a heavier base due to being constructed as todays modern shotshell hulls.

I would be interested in what it takes to modify the cases to accept the 209 primers as I have several new casings which have a flaw in the primer pockets from manufacture.

John:castmine:

[Buckshot]

.................Bigjohn, the way I alter them is to use a #4 centerdrill first, to drill through the anvil and primer pocket. A neat thing is that the #4 centerdrill's body is the perfect size to also create the relief in the base of the cartridge for the 209's flange.

After all your cases have visited the centerdrill, you need a letter 'B' .238" drill bit, and then you drill the cases with that, for the body diameter of the primer (which my CCI's mike about .242").

http://www.fototime.com/2814C9B404C7122/standard.jpg

Of course, then you need some tools to de-and reprime the cases.

http://www.fototime.com/97D8CFD115331D0/standard.jpg

These are some of the 8x56R's I'd converted long before the boxer primed ones became available. Besides these and the 577 Snider, I converted 32 ga shotshells for my M74 Brazilian Comblain in 11.5x42R.

....................Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the info I will go ahead and convert these cases. They were a freebie from the maker as they all have faults with the primer pocket, mainly off centre flash holes. I have for a long time been a believer that cartridges for black powder of this type need a primer simular to the 209 for consistant ignition. Now is the time to test that theory.
Tools for de-priming and re-priming, I have or can get made up as my normal reloading procedure is to deprime any fired case as soon as possible after firing, mostly by hand tools.
These loads are intended for an original Martini Henry Artillery Carbine so the projectile will need to be approx 400 grs max.

I also have a simular carbine which was converted to 45/70 before I purchased it; it shoots well with standard loads. Going to try BP loads then look out deer.

I may try a posting when I get some success, until then thanks again an' keep shootin' straight.

John

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/13CE8BA4DA1EB3C/standard.jpg

The above is how I check for front sight height, if the barrel doesn't have a sight on it. I don't know why people get so whacked out over it :-). The bent piece of metal is the stainless steel strip that comes in lots of windsheild wiper blades. Whenever I change wiper inserts I strip these out. They're a handy size.

I just take a pair of sidecutters to the range and use them to clip off pieces of the leg until I'm close. I didn't bring a file for fine adjustment since I was shooting the Snider :-) I figured I could clip off accurately enough for it. In case anyone is interested I came up with a front sight height of .480" above the barrel.

.................Buckshot