This is dangerous, I did some thinking!

[44man]

All of you know how I feel about shooting a hard WLN or WFN too fast from a revolver for deer. Since I don't use a rifle, some of you have to help out a little.
I feel the pressure wave in front moves tissue out of the way and this secondary wound channel collapses just leaving the hole from the boolit. Slow the boolit and it works fine.
But the light went on all of a sudden and made me wonder. If the boolit is sped up a lot more, the secondary channel will be created with more violence.
I am beginning to think there is a dead zone where the boolit can fail but below or above those velocities, the boolit is fine.
Whitworth shot a smallish pig with a borrowed .460 using commercial WFN boolits that fall into the velocity range I have trouble with. He made a double lung shot and the pig did not react. He had to chase it down through a swamp and keep shooting it with his .44. I do not remember if he said he shot it again with the .460, I will check.
He said the lungs were still intact from the .460.
So what do you think, could there just be a dead zone where the boolit is dead and the animal isn't until it gets away? :confused:

[Marlin Hunter]

I think, besides actual bone/muscle damage, it is a good idea to transfer the maximum amount of energy from the boolit to the game in as short of a time as possible. There might be a point where the boolit travels at the right speed where very little damage is done. I do not know the physics behind it. It might be like yanking a paper-towel off a roll. if its done right, there is little damage to the towel or roll. do it slow and you pull everything down, do it too fast and you tear off only a portion of the towel.

It seems like the faster the boolit is moving, the more meat is damaged around the primary bullet cavity.

I think it has more to do with where you hit it. There isn't anything inside the lungs to expand the boolit, only air. Why not shoot it in the head?

I hunt with a 444 marlin and all my hits are through the heart. I never had to chase a deer.

[44man]

I think, besides actual bone/muscle damage, it is a good idea to transfer the maximum amount of energy from the boolit to the game in as short of a time as possible. There might be a point where the boolit travels at the right speed where very little damage is done. I do not know the physics behind it. It might be like yanking a paper-towel off a roll. if its done right, there is little damage to the towel or roll. do it slow and you pull everything down, do it too fast and you tear off only a portion of the towel.

It seems like the faster the boolit is moving, the more meat is damaged around the primary bullet cavity.

I think it has more to do with where you hit it. There isn't anything inside the lungs to expand the boolit, only air. Why not shoot it in the head?

I hunt with a 444 marlin and all my hits are through the heart. I never had to chase a deer.
Well remember I am revolver hunting off hand. The gun I have trouble with is the 45-70 BFR, 378 gr WFN at about 1630 fps. Close shots through both lungs does little damage but the few I hit at 100 yards died very fast with the same hits.
I have no trouble at all with the .44, .45 or .475, all being slower.
Now I wonder what my .45 boolit will do at say 1800 fps from a rifle? Will it also reach the dead zone at a longer range, reversing what the revolver does?
I think it is worth some thought.

[geargnasher]

44Man, this is probably a question you've answered a hundred times before, but I don't know so I'll ask anyway: Why not use hollowpoints tuned to your alloy, gun, and velocity?

I know that hps have under- or over-velocity performance issues, but they perform best in the MIDDLE of a curve, they don't have a DIP in the middle of the curve like you're postulating solid-nose boolits could have, or if they do for the same reasons, at least they're BIGGER!

Gear

[insanelupus]

44 Man,

I used to carry a Browning HiWall in .45-70 quite a bit hunting whitetail deer. Using factory Remington 405 grain loads (around 1300 fps IIRC), that thing absolutely slammed deer. I started boosting ballistics with handloads using the same bulk Remington 405 grain load. (Granted, these are jacketed bullets, not cast), but I began to see when I boosted velocity I was not nearly as pleased with terminal ballistics in relation to how quickly I recovered the deer. I started backing things off, went from around 1750 fps to 1600 fps, I was more pleased, but the next loads will be slower yet I think. I actually want to go to cast bulllets when the current loads are shot up.

Veral Smith had a theory in which there is a point where trauma is so great that blood vessels essentially shut down supply of blood (wound from a high velocity round) as opposed to a slower, heavier projectile. I spoke with a couple of doctors about it, in theory they agreed such a circumstance could exist. Does it work in reality, I dunno. But I think there is something to it.

More and more I find the adage true (in jacketed bullets and to some extent in cast bullets), medium calibers, at medium speeds, with medium to heavy for caliber bullets, kill reliably in a hunting situation.

I took a few classes in college where we studied the effects of gunshot wounds. In slow motion footage in simiulated medium, the "shock wave" and the secondary wound cavitation caused by bullet impact are a real thing, it can be seen. The question is, how much of the forward pressure wave ahead of the bullet is disturbing tissue. There is a definate difference between tearing tissue (which is elastic) and that will essentially go back to form, versus cutting/removing tissue (such as would happen with WFN slow bullets) which creates a completely different wound.

When ballistic tips first came out, I tried them in a .308 on whitetail deer and gave them up. My preferred hunting method is still hunting/stalking. I found when I made close up shots on deer with ballistic tips (under 50 yards, typically bow type ranges 25-40 yards) the bullet would rip through a lot of tissue and not "expand" (I'd say blow up) until it had passed through the vitals and impacted the offside of the animal. At which point I had softball sized wound cavities. Yes, it destroyed meat (something I'm not fond of, but I'll sacrifice some meat for finding an animal), but it was amazing how far an animal could go with such a wound. I NEVER had that kind of a response with slower caliber standard expanding bullets (.30-30s, .45-70, .35 WCF, .348 WCF, etc).

So I would essentially say, at least in theory, you are correct in that there may be a "gray area" where you aren't generating enough velocity to create a large enough "shockwave" to tear tissue and (as opposed to just penetrating, I'm talking causing primary tissue destruction, not secondary that closes due to elasticity), yet it's too fast to "cut" with the WFN.

This is one reason why the old timers used round nose designs (for better penetration) and softer alloys (albeit at slower speeds). Within the limitations of cast bullets and studing older material and talking to folks that work with softer alloys, they have their place in hunting.

Bottom line, I dont' think any one nose design, alloy hardness, bullet diameter, etc., is applicable to all applications. Same issue is true with jacketed bullets too. But then, I also have considerable more experience with jacketed bullets than cast.

[shotman]

Two things here. No 1 a double lung shot with a 460 would not leave any lungs. I hit a deer through top of back at about 80yds and exit hole was 4in. No2 If you hunt with a ML and round ball you dont have to track a wounded prey. I have never had one run. so that would support the" less is better" idea.

[44man]

I had to learn the hard way because the large meplat was so effective for me. I figured faster would be even better but they failed unless bone was hit.
So, yes, I will be using 50-50 WW and pure with a hollow point this coming season.
Shotman, it was the boolit and load he was using that kind of matches what I have trouble with.
I have a friend in PA that used the factory load in his .460 on a deer at 140 yards. The offside shoulder was completely gone.
Insanelupus, very well said and exactly mirrors what I found.
I see the results of too much gun here every year because neighbors insist on 7mm and .300 mags for 40 yards. I have to help find deer that have gone as far as a mile with holes big enough to stuff a watermellon in. No blood trails after 50 to 100 yards.
A bad hit with all of that power is worse then anything. Last season I found a small, dead deer that was shot on the other property at least 1/2 mile away. she was blown up and dragging guts.
I made a bad gut shot on a deer with my .45 once and she laid right down and died.
Which gun do I trust more if I screw up a shot or the deer moves at trigger break? :Fire:

[sheepdog]

I'm no big hunter but wouldn't you think a slower velocity would support a nice pure lead LWC or HBWC in a nice dense grain that would spread like chewing gum when it hit?

If I had to pick what to get shot with its not a hyper velos like a 220 swift that I worry about, its the slow 500 grain 45/70 that scares the begeez out of me.

[BD]

I don't know the answer, but I'm interested in the question. I'm working on cast loads for the .450 Bushmaster. So far accuracy seems to come with 300 grainers at about 1,850 fps.
BD

[MTWeatherman]

44man,

I've got 40 years behind a .300 Winchester and don't believe I've ever lost an animal...so can't address any lack of blood trails. Few have taken more than a few steps after being hit so trailing hasn't been an issue. Where were those animals you are referring to hit with that .300 Mag? I'm careful with my shots but invariably take lung shots when having a broadside opportunity. I've missed a few...notably antelope (small animals and range become an issue) and luckily didn't take a leg off as a result but most years I connect with the first shot and it's down. Not bragging...just saying I try my best to only take shots I'm confident of. I've taken elk, deer, mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and antelope...a significant amount of all except the goat and sheep. My experience is significant and tells me velocity is a plus not a minus when it comes to quick kills with j bullets... not the reverse. That assumes a correctly constructed bullet...I use Nosler partitions. Although I believe the .30-30 to be an underrated cartridge when shot placement is correct, I have enough experience to show me a .300 puts animals down faster with a lung shot...they frequently travel a short distance with the .30-30.

That said, my experience with large caliber hard cast bullets is much more limited. I've taken deer with a .44 cast and that's it. I bow to your experience here on lower velocity being more effective and will offer another theory for consideration.

With a hard cast bullet, given equal weight and caliber, meplat size and velocity are the factors affecting tissue damage and thus "killing power". Large meplat ...much tissue damage, round nose bullet ... much less damage. Medium meplat falls in between. Effective cast hunting bullets have large meplats for that reason. At higher velocities, there well may be enough energy to destroy the edge of the meplat shortly after initial impact...producing a reduced meplat size on the path through vital organs. With a lower velocity bullet, that meplat remains pretty much intact. So, with the higher velocity bullet, there is less energy dump in the vital organs of the animal than with the lower velocity one. Meplat size overrides the effect of velocity.

[montana_charlie]

I have always used 7mm Rem Mag as my big game cartridge. Have owned several rifles, but always the same caliber. And, I always use the Nosler 160 grain Partition bullet.
So, I feel like I have a working understanding of it's capabilities under most circumstances.

It's not a hyper-velocity round, but it doesn't dawdle along, either.
Comparing results on long shots with those in short range hits, I came to the conclusion long ago that there is such a thing as 'too fast'.

I assume the same applies to all cartridges when performance on game is the criterion.

CM

[44man]

I'm no big hunter but wouldn't you think a slower velocity would support a nice pure lead LWC or HBWC in a nice dense grain that would spread like chewing gum when it hit?

If I had to pick what to get shot with its not a hyper velos like a 220 swift that I worry about, its the slow 500 grain 45/70 that scares the begeez out of me.
I could slow the gun way down but it has a 1 in 14" twist and likes what I shoot. I have been working with softer stuff but fliers increase. Those shorten my range. I think some skidding is coming in with a softer alloy. Pretty hard to jerk a soft boolit into a spin with that rate.
I have a lot of heavy boolit molds but not much in the way of a hunting boolit. Those would slow the velocity. I just have not had time to work with them. But making them soft might still not work because the inertia is increased and they might skid worse since they are all PB.

[sheepdog]

I could slow the gun way down but it has a 1 in 14" twist and likes what I shoot. I have been working with softer stuff but fliers increase. Those shorten my range. I think some skidding is coming in with a softer alloy. Pretty hard to jerk a soft boolit into a spin with that rate.
I have a lot of heavy boolit molds but not much in the way of a hunting boolit. Those would slow the velocity. I just have not had time to work with them. But making them soft might still not work because the inertia is increased and they might skid worse since they are all PB.

That is quite a pickle. Maybe the two alloy solution? Softer lead at the front then a hardtail on it with a gas check?

[243winxb]

Shock is what puts deer down where they stand. This takes 2700fps & 90Gr bullet, more is better. The velocity is the most important factor. Shock. An arrow can go thru the center of the heart and the deer still can run 200 yds. A 30WCF can go right thru and the deer gives no reaction what so ever that its hit good. If you hit the spine, or a neck shot, all work well. Heavy slow bullets punch a hole, penetrate deeply. High speed soft point bullets create shock to the animals nervous system.

[Leftoverdj]

Too many theories: too little data.

[StarMetal]

Well I wrote this before, but here it is again. A big game hunter and shooter was noting the difference of two Elk shot with the same load from a 338 Win Mag. As stated they were shot with the same load and rifle, at the same distance, at the same angle, hitting the same spot on the animal. One went down right there. The other ran quite some distance. He had forensic doctors examine both and asked them why the difference. By the way they were heart shots. On the one that went right down the doctors found that the blood vessels in the brain of that animal had burst destroying the brain. On the animal that ran some distance they found no such damage in the brain. So the question arises why? They said that their are two stages to the heart beat. The one where the hearts pumps out the blood and the other where it retracts getting ready to cycle again. They believe the elk that went right down was shot at the moment the heart was pumping out blood, thus increasing it's pressure dramatically and bursting the blood vessels in the brain, being they are delicate to start with. That plus the heart destroyed shut the animal down immediately. Makes sense to me, what do you fellows think? Yes I know it doesn't explain shots to other organs or areas.

Joe

[sheepdog]

Shock is what puts deer down where they stand. This takes 2700fps & 90Gr bullet, more is better. The velocity is the most important factor. Shock. An arrow can go thru the center of the heart and the deer still can run 200 yds. A 30WCF can go right thru and the deer gives no reaction what so ever that its hit good. If you hit the spine, or a neck shot, all work well. Heavy slow bullets punch a hole, penetrate deeply. High speed soft point bullets create shock to the animals nervous system.

Buffalo is alot more animal than a deer (up to 2500lb) with alot tougher hide. Yet reportedly the slowest loads of 45/70 dropped them instantly in a single shot everytime. The guys skinning them brought in teams and kept them in nice clusters this way for convience. That from a boolit going 1200fps at 500gr.

I don't subscribe to the fast and light theory. Seen too many hogs run off from even well placed .223 softpoints but I've never seen the old 30-30 softpoint lose to a whitetail. Temporary wound cavities and hydrostatic shock are hotly debated theories fought by smarter folks than us and still not settled.

Don't get me wrong, I'd trust my 30-06 before a 45/70 but slow and steady can still win the race.

[BABore]

Well I wrote this before, but here it is again. A big game hunter and shooter was noting the difference of two Elk shot with the same load from a 338 Win Mag. As stated they were shot with the same load and rifle, at the same distance, at the same angle, hitting the same spot on the animal. One went down right there. The other ran quite some distance. He had forensic doctors examine both and asked them why the difference. By the way they were heart shots. On the one that went right down the doctors found that the blood vessels in the brain of that animal had burst destroying the brain. On the animal that ran some distance they found no such damage in the brain. So the question arises why? They said that their are two stages to the heart beat. The one where the hearts pumps out the blood and the other where it retracts getting ready to cycle again. They believe the elk that went right down was shot at the moment the heart was pumping out blood, thus increasing it's pressure dramatically and bursting the blood vessels in the brain, being they are delicate to start with. That plus the heart destroyed shut the animal down immediately. Makes sense to me, what do you fellows think? Yes I know it doesn't explain shots to other organs or areas.

Joe

Great! Now I'll have to put a 36x scope on my 338 so I can see the heartbeat. Then I can use my range finder and ballistic data charts to determine exact range and time of flight. Then I can put one in the heart at the right moment.:groner::p

The last cow elk I got with my 338 was DRT. Put the CH's just behind the shoulder and touched it off. Of course my butt decided to slide down the hill while I had the rifle rested over a downed pinion pine. Butt went down, bbl went up. Elk took the bullet just under the spine. Elk sammich!:-)

[felix]

Joe, that's why head shots always win. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Great! Now I'll have to put a 36x scope on my 338 so I can see the heartbeat. Then I can use my range finder and ballistic data charts to determine exact range and time of flight. Then I can put one in the heart at the right moment.:groner::p

The last cow elk I got with my 338 was DRT. Put the CH's just behind the shoulder and touched it off. Of course my butt decided to slide down the hill while I had the rifle rested over a downed pinion pine. Butt went down, bbl went up. Elk took the bullet just under the spine. Elk sammich!:-)


Bruce,

You mean to tell me you don't have a 36x on your 338? Geesh, no wonder you can't shoot small cast groups at high velocity! bwahahahahahahahahaha

Joe

[theperfessor]

I think living tissue reacts differently when penetrating trauma of different speeds is inflicted upon it. Note that the .455 Webley uses a 265 gr bullet at a modest velocity (IIRC less than 700 ft/s) and yet was hghly regarded as an effective manstopper on par with the .45 ACP.

I think the character of a wound and the resulting instantaneous effects on the animal in question is different when membranes and tissue are stretched to their limit before being crushed and penetrated by a slow bullet compared to being penetrated quickly by a fast bullet and depending on some type of "shock effect" to result.

Some 30 years ago a local felon was shot 13 times with 125 gr .357 mag HPs by the local cops. He wasn't hit in the heart or longs but was hit several times in the torso, arms, and legs. He didn't even pass out before becoming too incapacitated to keep shooting and was conscious when taken into custody. Shock effect my a**!

[44man]

I hate to say it here but a 300 gr Hornady from my revolver puts a big hurt on deer.
Oh well, we will never actually get the answer until all the animals cooperate! :drinks: So many strange things happen with perfect shots and then a bum shot drops the silly things.
I shot a big doe one day with the .44 Marlin at about 65 yards with the LBT 320 gr boolit. It didn't hit the shoulder where I aimed because it is so unreliable but I caught the shoulder blade. She did not react, took one step and her head went down to the ground and her back end slowly went down and that was it. Tracking the boolit path showed I didn't really hit anything but lungs.

[waksupi]

Shock is what puts deer down where they stand. This takes 2700fps & 90Gr bullet, more is better. The velocity is the most important factor. Shock. An arrow can go thru the center of the heart and the deer still can run 200 yds. A 30WCF can go right thru and the deer gives no reaction what so ever that its hit good. If you hit the spine, or a neck shot, all work well. Heavy slow bullets punch a hole, penetrate deeply. High speed soft point bullets create shock to the animals nervous system.

Well, I dunno about that. I have had plenty deer drop in thier tracks with round ball travelling at 1700 fps, cast boolits from a rifle at 2100 fps, and pistol kills at maybe 1100 fps. I have always used lung and heart shots. Guess the deer are just wimps around here! :bigsmyl2:

[w30wcf]

Bob Hagel, noted gun writer and guide once said after witnessing many animals harvested that all acted a bit differently after taking a bullet....similar to what you fellows have indicated.

I recall that in reading tests of different calibers on anethetised pigs that it was found that as the impact velocity increased (.30 cal soft point bullets) so did the hydraulics which caused blood vessel rupturing further and further away from the impact site.

Starmetal,
Interesting info! Thank you.

w30wcf

[45 2.1]

I recall that in reading tests of different calibers on anethetised pigs that it was found that as the impact velocity increased (.30 cal soft point bullets) so did the hydraulics which caused blood vessel rupturing further and further away from the impact site. w30wcf

This would indicate that the more energy dumped inside the animal, the better blood vessel rupturing would be. I went to a hunting boolit that is a big hollow point that is cast soft. The results with those indicate that the above is true. With the 44 Special, 45 ACP/AR and 45 Colt cartridges, cast solids do not work as well for me under the same circumstances. Agitated animals are definitely much harder to put down and recover when shot with solids. When shot with cast hollow points, they go down within 40 yards, even when in an agitated state. Cartridges with higher energy levels do work better for putting game down when used with solids, but they might work even better hollow pointed for thin skinned game due to not enough energy being aborbed by the animal before the boolit leaves the animal.

[44man]

We just need to come up with guide lines. I might have a problem with my boolits on deer but what would they do on an elk or moose? They might be perfect.
Boolit choice is the same as bullet choice for the game to be hunted.

[StarMetal]

This would indicate that the more energy dumped inside the animal, the better blood vessel rupturing would be. I went to a hunting boolit that is a big hollow point that is cast soft. The results with those indicate that the above is true. With the 44 Special, 45 ACP/AR and 45 Colt cartridges, cast solids do not work as well for me under the same circumstances. Agitated animals are definitely much harder to put down and recover when shot with solids. When shot with cast hollow points, they go down within 40 yards, even when in an agitated state. Cartridges with higher energy levels do work better for putting game down when used with solids, but they might work even better hollow pointed for thin skinned game due to not enough energy being aborbed by the animal before the boolit leaves the animal.

I tend to agree with this. I bring back what Ross Seyfred wrote when he was with G&A magazine. He advised the best bullet for hunting deer with a handgun was a heavy hard cast bullet. After he got many letters complaining about all the deer that ran off because such bullets just shot through a deer without much effect, Ross made a rebuttal and said the best bullet was a jacketed soft point or hollow point because you DO need the expansion. This tends to say the same as 45 2.1 just posted above.

Joe

[carpetman]

Well we have bullets in a dead zone, we have bullets going to sleep and we have bullets exceeding the RPM Threshold. On top of that we gotta figure out which cycle the deer's heart is in. Sounds pretty complicated but there is easy fix. To begin with take a coroner with you so he can declare if your bullet is dead or simply asleep. If asleep--have an alarm clock. Hook your bullet up to a govenor or an RPM limiter---think Starmetal said Honda makes such. Then all you have to do is figure out the exact threshold of your bullet and set the rpm's below that. Take a stethoscope and give a listen to the deers heart and with a stopwatch, you should be able to time your shot. Now unless you have the wrong BHN, wrong neck tension, didn't use an M die, used a teflon coated muffin pan as an ingot mold, you should get your deer. That is unless the deer was annoyed by your checking his heart beat and is attacking you. In this case it might be self defense and EVERYONE knows you dont use reloads for self defense. How in the world do people ever kill a deer with all this stuff to worry about?

[winelover]

Well we have bullets in a dead zone, we have bullets going to sleep and we have bullets exceeding the RPM Threshold. On top of that we gotta figure out which cycle the deer's heart is in. Sounds pretty complicated but there is easy fix. To begin with take a coroner with you so he can declare if your bullet is dead or simply asleep. If asleep--have an alarm clock. Hook your bullet up to a govenor or an RPM limiter---think Starmetal said Honda makes such. Then all you have to do is figure out the exact threshold of your bullet and set the rpm's below that. Take a stethoscope and give a listen to the deers heart and with a stopwatch, you should be able to time your shot. Now unless you have the wrong BHN, wrong neck tension, didn't use an M die, used a teflon coated muffin pan as an ingot mold, you should get your deer. That is unless the deer was annoyed by your checking his heart beat and is attacking you. In this case it might be self defense and EVERYONE knows you dont use reloads for self defense. How in the world do people ever kill a deer with all this stuff to worry about?

:drinks:EXACTLY---That's why I decided to switch to J-word bullets for HUNTING and cast for PRACTICE---after all how many are you going to use per season?

Winelover :castmine:

[44man]

Well we have bullets in a dead zone, we have bullets going to sleep and we have bullets exceeding the RPM Threshold. On top of that we gotta figure out which cycle the deer's heart is in. Sounds pretty complicated but there is easy fix. To begin with take a coroner with you so he can declare if your bullet is dead or simply asleep. If asleep--have an alarm clock. Hook your bullet up to a govenor or an RPM limiter---think Starmetal said Honda makes such. Then all you have to do is figure out the exact threshold of your bullet and set the rpm's below that. Take a stethoscope and give a listen to the deers heart and with a stopwatch, you should be able to time your shot. Now unless you have the wrong BHN, wrong neck tension, didn't use an M die, used a teflon coated muffin pan as an ingot mold, you should get your deer. That is unless the deer was annoyed by your checking his heart beat and is attacking you. In this case it might be self defense and EVERYONE knows you dont use reloads for self defense. How in the world do people ever kill a deer with all this stuff to worry about?
It is because someone will kill a deer with a boolit that can cause a problem but he broke both shoulders or hit the deer in the spine and it dropped, so now it is the perfect boolit!!!!!! Then the next deer has the boolit slip through the chest and is lost so the first thing said is "I made a bad hit." It was NOT a bad hit, it was boolit failure.
We are here to learn and work out problems, not to make fun of things some do not experience or to show how smart some are.
Failures are even more important then success and until you realize that, you get nowhere nor do you help a single person.
Lack of intelligent thought or constructive insight seems to be the norm anymore and poking fun is the easy way out.
It is a serious problem, not a video game.
Personally I think you are stuck with too many unsubstantiated opinions, lack of experience and are too quick to judge what others find.
I have been at this too long and one lost animal is one too many. Perhaps you do not care and if one does not drop, you just shoot another.
Stop putting yourself in a bad light and if you never lost an animal, you have not hunted enough or you lie.
Hunting is very serious, you hold the animals life in your hands. Kill cleanly without blowing it to smithereens and eat the meat. If you can't do that, stay out of my woods.

[243winxb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_trauma
When assessing the likely severity of gunshot wounds, there are numerous variables which include the following, considered either singly or in concert:

* the particular type of weapon used; rifles are generally more destructive than handguns. For example, a close-range abdominal wound inflicted by a 7.62 NATO rifle will be much more severe than one inflicted by a .38 revolver from the same distance.

* the calibre of the weapon; e.g. a wound from a small diameter bullet will generally be less severe than a wound inflicted by a larger diameter when the velocities are the same. The cartridge designation is generally an approximation of bullet diameter and is of value to the gun knowledgeable in estimating other characteristics; velocity, weight, design, etc.

* the design of the bullet used and its velocity. Expanding bullets are more damaging than non expanding. Of the non expanding bullets, flat or very blunt nosed bullets are more damaging than more pointed bullets as the more pointed bullet may push some tissue aside. Heavier bullets will penetrate more deeply than lighter bullets at the same velocity.

* the range at which the victim was shot; i.e. wounds inflicted from a distance of 5 metres will invariably be more severe than those fired from a range of 500 metres if all other factors are equal. The velocity of a bullet (and therefore its destructive potential) gradually reduces as it travels from the muzzle of a firearm.

Destructive effects

The immediate damaging effects of the bullet are typically a loss of blood, and with it, the potential for hypovolemic SHOCK, an inadequate amount of blood in the circulatory system. More immediate effects can result when a bullet strikes a critical organ such as the heart or damages a component of the central nervous system such as the spine or brain. Common causes of death following gunshot injury include exsanguination, hypoxia caused by pneumothorax, heart failure and brain damage. Non-fatal gunshot wounds can result in serious disability.

Gunshot injuries can vary widely from case to case since the location of the injury can be in any part of the body, with wide variations in entry point. Also, the path and possible fragmentation of the bullet within the body is unpredictable. The study of the dynamics of bullets in gunshot injuries is called terminal ballistics. Shock-High Velocity works.:Fire:

[theperfessor]

Yes, shock at high velocity works. But does it work at low velocity, and where is the dividing line? If I read the first post correctly, 44Man's original question was about killing power at a range of velocities that was high for a pistol round but low for a rifle round.

It might be postulated that the effect of a large diameter low velocity round that stretches tissue to its maximum before penetrating might be just as effective as that of a smaller diameter high velocity round that creates a sufficiently large shock wave to do the same thing. A large diameter bullet at a medium velocity might not overcome the static inertia and stretch the tissue before penetration and also may not be going fast enough to create a pressure wave that would do the same thing.

Just my theory.

[243winxb]

Yes, shock at high velocity works. But does it work at low velocity, and where is the dividing line? If I read the first post correctly, 44Man's original question was about killing power at a range of velocities that was high for a pistol round but low for a rifle round.

It might be postulated that the effect of a large diameter low velocity round that stretches tissue to its maximum before penetrating might be just as effective as that of a smaller diameter high velocity round that creates a sufficiently large shock wave to do the same thing. A large diameter bullet at a medium velocity might not overcome the static inertia and stretch the tissue before penetration and also may not be going fast enough to create a pressure wave that would do the same thing.

Just my theory. As said above
Of the non expanding bullets, flat or very blunt nosed bullets are more damaging than more pointed bullets as the more pointed bullet may push some tissue aside. So use a full wadcutter or a very blunt nose, add the highest velocity you can for a handgun. There is no midrange speeds better than the Highest velocity.

[carpetman]

44 man--dont go taking yourself too seriously--a dead zone? If I understand your thought correctly you are saying a bullet has a velocity that is too fast on one hand and too slow on the other where nothing happens? Guess you could find that speed on two automobiles and run the two together with no damage. Post a map of the area of the woods you own and I'll be glad to stay out.

[runfiverun]

the dead zone would be a velocity where the boolit doesnt have enough speed to impart energy to the impact area and let it spread out,but has too much velocity to be effective in it's dwell time.
if enough vel is present the flat nosed boolit will push the skin in further and pull the offside skin out further it will also suck in more air behind it.
one of my pet peeves when bullets/boolits are discussed is the fact that air turbulence around and in front of the boolit is totally forgotten.
if a boolit has enough momentum [not velocity] energy- you know mass moving.
and the boolit is soft and flat the boolit will compress upon entering and tear a hole in the skin spreading the impact out over a wider area it will also smoosh it's way through an animal at a slower speed causind damage to the sides as it tears through the skin the insides are moving also they bounce back against the boolit and it is in the animal longer to disrupt the moving organs, it then forces it's way out the other side pulling the animal that way again and moving the organs another time.
thats why sometimes you find a boolit stuck under the skin of a very dead animal.
if you had more weight to the bullet it would have torn the skin even more than a light or non deformed one exiting.
my take on it.and i am sticking with what i do for these reasons.

[HammerMTB]

It seems to me we are trying to blend some terminal ballistic science with some medical knowledge of warm-blooded animals and mixing the 2 sometimes yields poor conclusions.
Several things can cause a warm-blooded creature to die. All of them end up as blood ceases to flow to the brain. This can happen instantly, or slowly. Boolit hits may cause either.
It has been my observation that 4-legged animals have a lot of desire to stay alive. 2-legged animals in mortal combat do too. 2-legged animals surprised or not willing to strive to live can let it go too easily.
There is a great deal of the art of war in this: Why a .22 instead of a .30 cal or larger? More ammo carried? My father, who retired from the MSC, USN, was of the opinion that the reason was if a soldier is wounded, 3 were taken out of battle. One shot, 2 to carry. A KIA was only 1 down.
To restrain this to 4-legged: Disruption of the CNS or massive blood loss make quick kills. As any who've made poor kill shots know, some shots that will bring an animal down, will not kill it instantly, but require a mercy shot to finish.
I have shot big game animals with high powered jacketed rifle bullets down to muzzle-loaders. I have shot small game with stuff as small as pellets.
I don't think there is any magic dead zone to velocity. There is no "magic" spot to shoot game to instantly kill it. There are shot placements that are quick and humane. I trust we all try to do that to the best of our ability.
BTW, I don't think a shot thru 2 lungs is a quick kill shot, unless it is a .45 cal or larger on a squirrel or smaller. The critter will bleed to death, but not necessarily quickly. If it is already inclined to run, it will do so.
My $.02, that's all...

[44man]

The perfessor and runfiverun both say it well. At least some understand the problem.
It is real, to ignore it, make fun of it or say it can't happen does not fit in the pursuit of knowledge or problem solving. :takinWiz:

[runfiverun]

kinda the weatherby keith thing again only the problem lies right in the middle of their extremes.
some of us choose calibers for a reason. not cause they are the newest or even close to the fastest.
i know 44 man is asking these q's because of an incident he had i asked many of them with j-words after having the reverse happen where too much damage was done with what would be called a sedate caliber and "premium bonded" bullets.
i didn't make the reaction of needing a bigger gun i made a conclusion i needed to slow the bullet down and go to a regular cup and core.
i have made this same suggestion to others who have had the same end result.
part of why i do what i do with my cast boolits.
i find my self actually agreeing with 44 man more and more except on two things[hardness and lube and i don't got a problem with the lube really] but we are working towards the same goals it seems.

[JIMinPHX]

There is no "magic" spot to shoot game to instantly kill it.

Head shot?

[carpetman]

I fully agree a clean quick kill is the goal. Thats why I hunt with jacketed bullets. Ive seen 3 moose shot with 30-06 using jacketed bullets--all one shot kills. I've read several reports here and on other forums using cast bullets and one shot kills were not what was written. Certainly you can kill with a cast bullet, but why would I want a rainbow trajectory when my jacketed bullets shoot flatter and out to a lot longer range? How do you know you are applying the proper theory on one that gets away? You have no carcass to examine to see if you are applying the right theory. Maybe it was a bad hit.

[44man]

I fully agree a clean quick kill is the goal. Thats why I hunt with jacketed bullets. Ive seen 3 moose shot with 30-06 using jacketed bullets--all one shot kills. I've read several reports here and on other forums using cast bullets and one shot kills were not what was written. Certainly you can kill with a cast bullet, but why would I want a rainbow trajectory when my jacketed bullets shoot flatter and out to a lot longer range? How do you know you are applying the proper theory on one that gets away? You have no carcass to examine to see if you are applying the right theory. Maybe it was a bad hit.
Yes, sometimes it is a good idea and I agree 100% with smaller caliber rifles.
You are correct that a lost deer is hard to examine however the big revolver is so easy to shoot that I see the boolit hit. Mostly because the deer I lost were all shot at the closest ranges, 20 yards or less. Those I shot at the longest ranges are the ones I found, some went 100 and the last went 200 yards or more.
I have a bad habit of aiming tight to the shoulder instead on in it because I have been an archer all my life, second nature to stay away from the shoulders. [smilie=1: I only have one bow that will go through the darn things.
Now had I hit every deer right in the shoulders I would have dropped them and never seen what the boolit is doing, then I would have too much confidence in the boolit and would keep using it only to have it fail down the road.
It was a surprise to me to see a WLN from a .44 blows lungs to mush at around 1300 fps and then see a WFN do nothing to lungs but poke a hole at 1600 and some fps, both with the same POI on the deer. But like I said, maybe at 1800 fps the boolit might work fine again. I have no idea where the effective velocity is again.
Only a rifle shooter with a 45-70 can tell us, if he uses hard cast.
Don't think I was talking about you staying out of my woods, you are welcome to hunt with me anytime. :Fire: It was a general statement aimed at those that live around me that actually never look for deer they shoot at, it must fall right there and a gut shot deer is never picked up, just left to rot. I found a gut shot deer right under a jerks stand, he just left it.
Never take anything I say personal, I only vent frustration from what I see every season, in every state I have hunted in.

[NSP64]

The pressure wave in front of a big flatnose bullet moves the tissue out of the way. I) It is not a matter of the boolit for the job it's a matter of the velocity for the boolit. Pointed bullets were designed to cut through the wind -> Therefore they retain velocity over a greater distance. They are designed to expand at a certain velocity. outside of that velocity- higher they come apart-lower they drill through. The same can be said for cast designs, they are by nature designed for lower velocities. Wide flat noses. If you shoot higher velocities then shoot a design for those velocities, or try to hit bone.:Fire:


Yes there is a dead zone for boolits. But, It's more like a performance zone, each design being a different velocity. Say, your boolit design works good from 700-1400 fps. From a pistol that may be muzzle to 100yrds for a 45LC, or 50-120 yrs for 454, or 80-150 for BFR. At those distances that boolit design would be in the performance zone.

[doghawg]

I've been a handgun deer hunter for years but only the last two were with cast bullets. A Montana Bullet Works 375 LFNGC (382 gr) over 16 gr. of HS6 seemed to work real well in a .475 BFR. The muzzle velocity was 1225 or so and at the 49 paced yards of the shot I'd guess impact velocity at 1150. Don't know if it's the .400" meplat or what but I do know it hits like a truck! He went about 30 yards. :-D:drinks:

[Thumbcocker]

I have been sitting here with my ears open and my mouth shut because my elders (at least in terms of critters shot with boolits from handguns) have been speaking. I only have this to add in the form of two questions. 1.) Is there any way that the average boolit shooter could do controlled tests with boolits at various speeds in such a manner that the testing would translate to real critter shooting situations? 2.) Do the factors being discussed in this thread have anything to do with why Elmer Kieth and others as well as BP cartridges settled on 1200-1300fps? I have no idea as to the answer to either of these questions so I will sit here and listen.

[44man]

Doghawg, absolutely the best caliber I have for deer or anything else.
But I have to wonder if it will still work from a rifle with the same boolit, shot faster?
NSP64, exactly right, performance zone! I am out of it at close range so it needs fixed. That's why I figured a larger animal or a longer range to slow the boolit is better. Close range needs expansion.
Anyway, this is a .475 deer too.
The boolit was a 420 gr WLN, 28 BHN, 1329 fps.

[HammerMTB]

Head shot?

I knew someone would respond with that, but I don't think that's magic. It's pure science.
And I have seen muffed head shots that had big game run off with a broken jaw.

[44man]

I have been sitting here with my ears open and my mouth shut because my elders (at least in terms of critters shot with boolits from handguns) have been speaking. I only have this to add in the form of two questions. 1.) Is there any way that the average boolit shooter could do controlled tests with boolits at various speeds in such a manner that the testing would translate to real critter shooting situations? 2.) Do the factors being discussed in this thread have anything to do with why Elmer Kieth and others as well as BP cartridges settled on 1200-1300fps? I have no idea as to the answer to either of these questions so I will sit here and listen.
I really think so, Elmer was a great hunter and a great shot with tons of experience. He used a good boolit ( I do not think he designed the semi wad cutter) that has been bent, spindled and mutilated for years.
I don't think there is anything you can shoot into to show what a boolit does in game. You must hunt and see what a boolit really does.

[runfiverun]

thats why bellistic gelatin was "discovered"
it still isn't the same thing.
remember what elmer used for an alloy too.

[Bass Ackward]

This has always confounded us as hunters and it is because we can't come up with the same language to discuss it. That language is complicated by the game animal pursued, so I am going to rename some things and see if it makes more sense. Then it should be obvious what to do.

When we shoot, we create different kinds of shock. Scientists call it many things, but we can simplify this down to two kinds. First we will call close shock and the second far shock. It is important to keep these separate in your mind as a brain shot can cause both near and far shock.

Near shock is defined as shock created by a bullet passing through material (big point here because all material is different) that it doesn't rupture blood cells so that bleeding is prevented. Close shock can be too high for one animal but not high enough for another. Bottom line is that for close shock, anything over about a 1 1/4" exit wound is counter productive and can cause blood to clot naturally. Minus a nerve or bone structure hit, we are counting on bleed out to finish the job which it will.

Far shock is often described as hydraulic shock where the brain or heart is destroyed, if a hit transfers enough energy to rupture something at the precise point of a heart beat. Government studies peg this at 2600 fps, but that is a non expanding, high velocity impact on a man sized and textured object. For cast, a meplat can reach this area sooner. Same with a heavy slug if it doesn't slow down. Problem is that it often triggers the clotting effect locally against bleeding. And if it fails to destroy anything critical in the original path of trajectory, we can have a monster run or lost game.

If we realize that hydraulic shock is a gamble at best and unattainable with most cast usage, then we can focus on near shock to solve or problems. This MUST be understood, because over shock on a deer textured animal may be insufficient on another critter. The first objective MUST be complete penetration through the game of interest with the shot of interest. Then we must govern shock to control wound size through the entire path with exit wound size as the tell tale sign. That may mean limiting both near and far range, meplat size, bullet hardness, shot placement, etc.

That's why no one formula wins out for everything and why trial and error obtains the best results over time. That is right up until your tried and true pattern changes (hard and wide) and requires you to adjust. Failure to understand that you have left one zone of shock while not moving far enough to create far shock will produce a longer run on game regardless of the type or the caliber used.

A person that relies on a chest hit has an entirely different perspective than someone that is breaking bone along with his attempt to deliver shock. Often you will hear shot placement is the key. For cast, it is not only shot placement but shot placement that your slug is prepared to deal with that is the key. Too wide a meplat at too high a strike velocity can either cause TOO much near shock in a light material animal (deer) or cause expansion and slowed penetration in a heavy or dense animal such as a buffalo. With game in between that you have shot placement issues that complicate the thought process.

When you perform your load development and shot testing, realize that there will be a minimum range limitation where you risk going too fast and a long distance limit where you fail to induce enough close shock to create a sufficient would channel for bleeding. (why the 357 has a lousy reputation on deer) The key to success with either cast or jacketed is understanding what is going to happen with the shot you take. What type of shock are you going to rely on.

What I am trying to get you to realize that caliber is unimportant if you understand strike velocity and target area. meplat width and bullet weight to maintain momentum know not caliber that they were launched as or be upon strike. Bullet design and hardness is important if you understand the same. If you don't, then a wider meplat has more margin for error. That is right up until bore diameter and strike velocity move you up from the good zone of wound channel to over shock where you clot blood cells. Each caliber and bore diameter will have it's "usable" or "working" ranges that are in between a maximum and minimum range where it produces acceptable wound channels results. Usually the larger the bore diameter or bullet weight, the wider the margin for error.

You must conceptualize that there is a minimum and a maximum range for everything where ideal wound channel size is obtained for everything on everything. Therefore, there is a caliber and meplat diameter (and bullet weight) factor that needs to be considered at a minimum and maximum velocity if game density and size produces too large of a wound channel.

If you can grasp these comments, and think of your bullet launching system as a shock producer, then understand what type of shock it is limited too, then you can begin to understand why some things work and why everything will eventually fail on every different game animal based upon it's body mass and density. Regardless of cartridge power. You can have too little just as you can produce too much.

If you can understand this, then you can make anything work with the proper shot placement and range for which it will create the correct kind of shock and adjust your acceptable shot placement accordingly through a certain material density. Pigs are different from deer. Not one load or bullet design or hardness or range limitations will work for both without making adjustments. Sorry, that is just what we have to deal with.

[Gohon]

why the 357 has a lousy reputation on deer

Wish someone had told that to all the deer I've taken with a 1894C. They would be happy to know they are still alive. Shock does not kill deer. Only the lack of oxygen to the brain kills whether it is by external or internal bleed out or a spine shot that causes the heart to shut down. Close shock, far shock, in between shock....... all that does if anything at all is render the deer unconscious long enough for bleed out to do it's job. Might sound good on paper but has no application in the field. As someone already said, the old 45-70 done a good job because it drove deep and destroyed tissue on the way in.........causing bleed out.

As to a government study for a double heart beat at 2600 fps...........well what was actually discovered was all deer that dropped immediately upon being shot were found to have a scrambled brain. Conclusion was at the precise moment of a heart beat the impact caused a double pump of the heart which over pressurized the brain and turned it into mush. Speed of the bullet had no bearing, it was just coincidental.

All my casts bullets I use in the 357 mag and 45 Colt rifles whether swc, wfn, wln or what ever are cast to 17-18 bhn, never any harder and I have never lost a deer. About the longest distance I recall one running is maybe 80 yards. No need to carry a computer into the field just so one can quickly figure out what kind of shock producer he has before shooting. Just cast the things to the right size and hardness, load them up and go shoot the darn things. Hit the animal where you are suppose to and it will die within sight of your gun muzzle.

[jeff223]

i dont know what the answer is for you James but ive been keeping a close watch on this thread.i do think i will be shooting the 300 grain Remington JHPs out of my 45-70 Contender this year just for a test.you have seen this picture before but i thought i would post it again.i shot this buck last fall with a 350 grain Ranch Dog boolit and after a hit through the lungs the deer just walked in behind a brush pile and stood there like he was never hit.after a few minutes he walked into a opening and i shot him again and put him down.the Ranch Dog boolit did its job but i would of thought there would of been more damage to the lungs than what i found upon gutting the animal.the boolit was traveling around 1600 fps,maybe i should slow it down some?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8cf00b3127ccec5ffd8d86c8e00000040O01AZtWzlu4csQ e3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

and here is a picture of a deer i shot with a 357max.the lungs were all blown up and there was alot of damage to the far shoulder and the deer ran for 100 plus yards.the picture shows the enterance side and hole made by a 180 grain Hornady XTP @ 2000fps
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf02b3127ccec2fa18ba2ef000000010O01AZtWzlu4csQ e3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Bass Ackward]

Wish someone had told that to all the deer I've taken with a 1894C.

As someone already said, the old 45-70 done a good job because it drove deep and destroyed tissue on the way in.........causing bleed out.

Hit the animal where you are suppose to and it will die within sight of your gun muzzle.


Gohon brings up an excellent point that I am dead sure is is based upon his experience. I call this "expert experience". We all learn at an early age the importance of perfect shot placement. But from what angle? You learn that from failure, not success.

Which bore diameter has lost more deer than any other for me? 45 caliber rifle. (14 deer) Which cast technique fails most often in the over power category (easier with a rifle) on thin skin game? Hard and too wide. (14 deer) My 45s all have 60% meplats or less now just for this reason.

Over 1200 deer with every bore diameter and slug type going has shown me that everything will work. And everything can fail. All with text book shot placement. 6" exits where the heart is totally removed from the chest that go for 300 yards. 45 cal hits that leave no blood for 800 yards until someone else gets the deer. Why? Not understanding over shock. Just as bad as under shock.

What is the most idiot proof bore diameter for type of projectile or bullet design for deer? Any 35 caliber rifle with bullet strikes over 1300 fps and bullet weights 158 grains or higher. The worst handgun bore diameter for deer? 35 / 38 Caliber with strikes under 1300 fps with any weight bullet. That's how close the margin of error can be.

Why? Hard to over shock with a 35 so you can just monitor the minimum distance or velocity which is the easiest for people to judge. (I suppose that it can be done, just no failures for me yet in 60 or so now, all with cast.)

Why do smaller bores have trouble with cast? Just the opposite. Maximum range limitations because of velocity loss move in very quickly. Not creating at least a 1/2" exit that is needed to bleed cleanly without clogging up.

Bottom line: Deer can't tell or care squat about caliber or bullet weight or meplat size or velocity. Have your launching system cut a 1/2" to 1 1/4" hole from what ever angle you make your "perfect shot placement" and you will be successful. Fail to penetrate fully or exceed either of those extremes because you miscalculated and bring a pair of tennis shoes.

[44man]

We are getting somewhere. But the massive damage is what I want to avoid. It is the reason I gave up rifles. I don't want to take my revolvers back to that.
So far even the .475 that destroys internals will not ruin much meat and I can butcher to the holes.
Bass is correct and most of the deer guys lose around here are shot with too much power and torn tissue seals too fast. The deer family has an amazingly fast clotting factor. An arrow is more effective then blowing up the whole side of a deer. The way a wound is made is more important then how destructive it is.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

This is a real bear to answer. I've seen mule deer shot in the lungs with 7mm mag & 300 winnie mag and run forever. Have a lot to do with no bullet expansion. Go figure, I found a long time ago to study the anonymity of the animal and I take hart shots or shoulder spine /head shots...DRT no chase, no lost game. When shooting moose/elk I like the spine shot at the hump, brakes the spine/neck and blows up the top of the hart most of the time.
An animal shot through the hart may drop or run a 100yds, I've seen it happen both ways more than a few times.

I hate it when a big animal takes off , they always find a really bad place to die and make packing Hell. I know lots of people that just have to lung shoot animals, their option.

I know this is just one more option and not always practical , but it WFM. Cast or J's in the right place kill. One great thing about a discussion like this, is you are going to get lots of ideas.[smilie=1:

[runfiverun]

that picture of jeffs reminds me of pictures i have seen done with cast and a 357 at high velocity.
as well as high vel rifles regardless of caliber.
i have had xtp's in my 45 colt not expand at 1200 fps and they killed fine ,and is the reason i started to use cast as a substitute but with a higher velocity.

looks as though there are at least 4 of us who get what is being discussed, and 44 man knows where i stand on the issue, i am gonna wait for his conclusion to see what he does.

[44man]

that picture of jeffs reminds me of pictures i have seen done with cast and a 357 at high velocity.
as well as high vel rifles regardless of caliber.
i have had xtp's in my 45 colt not expand at 1200 fps and they killed fine ,and is the reason i started to use cast as a substitute but with a higher velocity.

looks as though there are at least 4 of us who get what is being discussed, and 44 man knows where i stand on the issue, i am gonna wait for his conclusion to see what he does.
Have to wait until November after I try the softer hollow points! :drinks: We have new early seasons this year, early bow and muzzle loader seasons in Sept. If I can find someone to give meat to, I should get 7 this year. I can only use 2 for myself. The herd is going crazy and deer even went on my friends deck and ate his squash and tomato plants he has around it. He has a dog door right there and his large dogs kill any deer that come over his fence but deer are right by the door.

[insanelupus]

44man,

Elmer Keith did not "invent" the semi-wadcutter design per se, though he may have named it. I do think he more or less refined a version to come up with the design.

The Lyman 429336 was designed by C.E. Heath at the Boston Revolver Club in the early 1900s (before the advent of the .44 Special in 1907)and it was intended for the .44 Russian.

Fryxell explains it much better than I. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44SWC.htm

[44man]

44man,

Elmer Keith did not "invent" the semi-wadcutter design per se, though he may have named it. I do think he more or less refined a version to come up with the design.

The Lyman 429336 was designed by C.E. Heath at the Boston Revolver Club in the early 1900s (before the advent of the .44 Special in 1907)and it was intended for the .44 Russian.

Fryxell explains it much better than I. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44SWC.htm
OK, it is just my old memory that fails and I knew it was not Keith that came up with the original. But he put the revolver on the map and gave us what we have today.