WTB: 10-20 pieces of long .45-70 brass

[Woodtroll]

Folks,

I know most WTB requests belong in the classifieds, but I'm hoping to get more exposure to the right people here in the BPC forum. Hopefully the moderators will move it over for me if I am too far out of line.

I'm trying to work up a paper-patch load for my Shiloh .45-70, and keep getting paper rings left in the chamber, and leading in the bore. My chamber slug shows my chamber a little long at 2.120" or so, and I would like to buy a few rounds of longer-than-usual brass to see if that eliminates the problem. I usually use WW brass, but everything I've bought in the last few years is shorter than 2.100". If you have any long WW (preferred) or Remington brass you would sell me, I sure would appreciate it.

Please email me at reganu at swva dott net (put this into usual email address format- I'm trying to dodge the spambots).

Thanks very much!

[texasmac]

Woodtroll,

You may have more success obtaining some .45-90 cases and trimming them some to fit. Just a suggestion.

I recently bought a bunch of brand new Rem. .45-70 to size down to .40-65. It averages 2.096".

Wayne

[Woodtroll]

Hello, Wayne, and thanks for the thought. I, too, have had trouble finding "full-length" .45-70 brass lately, compounding the "long chamber" problem. I had thought about buying .45-90 brass, as you suggested, but it just recently dawned on me that Buffalo Arms draws .45-90 brass from .45-70. I wonder if they could draw some "just a little bit" for me? At least that way the headstamp would be right. I'll have to give them a call.

I know Montana Charlie was selling a fixture to stretch .45-70 brass, but he didn't think it would work on WW, the last I heard.

I was hoping somebody might have some used, stretched brass they would part with so I could experiment, though. Thanks again for your help- I sure do appreciate it!

Y'all take care!
Regan

[EOD3]

Starline brass typically measures 2.098 to 2.103

Might be easier to find than WW.

[cajun shooter]

Woodtroll, I have some 45-70 brass that I just recently purchased from Starline. I have taken readings with two different calipers, one a Dillon and the other a digital FA. They both say that the brass is 2.103. This brass was annealed by me about 10 days ago. But I think I still have some that is not annealed in my shop. I would be glad to help you out if you want to try the Starline. I would sell you the 20 pieces and shipping for just my cost. I wish I could give it to you but I'm not in that position. Let me know. Later David

[montana_charlie]

I had thought about buying .45-90 brass, as you suggested, but it just recently dawned on me that Buffalo Arms draws .45-90 brass from .45-70. I wonder if they could draw some "just a little bit" for me? At least that way the headstamp would be right. I'll have to give them a call.
I heard that Buffalo Arms stopped selling the stretched brass. The cases that they did stretch were Remington, because they have enough meat in the wall to make it possible.

I know Montana Charlie was selling a fixture to stretch .45-70 brass, but he didn't think it would work on WW, the last I heard.
Winchester has such a thin wall, it would probably be too weak if it was modified.
Since our stretcher won't produce a wall as thin as Winchester, it also won't stretch Winchester.

I was hoping somebody might have some used, stretched brass they would part with so I could experiment, though. Thanks again for your help- I sure do appreciate it!
A guy had a small amount of used 45/70 brass for sale in the Swap & Sell fourm, a while back. I sent a PM to ask a question of some kind (don't remember what). Seems I was the only one who showed any interest in it at all...so he gave it to me.

If I can locate that brass, and if it is a brand that can be stretched, I'll make some long cases that you can trim back to 2.120"...and 'souvenir you' all of them.
But there may not be as many as 20 of those.

Do you shoot full-length resized cases...or fireformed?

CM

[Woodtroll]

Folks,

Thanks very much for the help- I sure do appreciate it.

David- your offer is generous and very much appreciated, but I do have some Starline brass that I use for smokeless loads in other rifles. It is still not as long as I need, and is so much thicker (less internal capacity) that I decided not to use it for BP.

Montana Charlie- If you are able to locate this brass, I will be glad to buy it from you and pay you for the labor. I'm not looking for freebies, but would like to try some longer brass before committing to a large lot somehow. I wouldn't have to have 20, or even 10, if you don't have that many. Alternately, if I locate some stretchable brass, could I "hire you out" to stretch them for me? I usually neck-size just enough to make a friction-fit with the bullet, but otherwise my cases are fireformed. I'll send you a PM.

Y'all's offers of advice and help really make my day- this is certainly a great forum! Thanks again,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie- If you are able to locate this brass, I will be glad to buy it from you and pay you for the labor. I'm not looking for freebies,
I stated that as a 'free offer' because I am not looking for a second job.
If I have the cases, and if they are suitable, the offer stands as described.

Alternately, if I locate some stretchable brass, could I "hire you out" to stretch them for me?
For the reason stated above, the answer to this is 'no'.
Helping a guy out is one thing, but the stretching process is too complicated for me to devote time to a 'stretching service'. It is more involved than just shoving a fired case into a resizing die.
The tool isn't complicated to use, but getting the cases to meet "your" specifications is a trial and error thing until you get the first one right.
It's very hard to accomplish that in a 'long distance' situation.

I usually neck-size just enough to make a friction-fit with the bullet, but otherwise my cases are fireformed. I'll send you a PM.
For this small batch, I'll just stretch to a point where there is sure to be enough material to trim back.
Knowing that you use 'fattened' cases means they will need more length added than if they were going to be FL resized.

I'll search for those cases today, and see what they are.

I got your PM, and I'll answer it when I have something to tell you...

CM

[Woodtroll]

Thanks, Charlie, I appreciate it. No rush on my end, just work at your convenience. Take care!

[montana_charlie]

Woodtroll,
I found that package of 45/70 cases. It was a mix of brands, but there are 20 RP cases that all seem to be about the same age and condition. I am assuming they are once (or twice) fired.

They are pretty grungy, so they need cleaning before stretching. Some have a little bit of blue-green corrosion on them, but I don't think they are damaged.
I don't have enough of my own brass ready to clean a batch right now, so you'll have to wait until I fire the stuff I loaded yesterday. Should happen this weekend if the weather cooperates.

Along about Monday or Tuesday I'll see about stretching yours.

CM

[Woodtroll]

Sounds great, Charlie, please just work on them at your own pace.

My sincere thanks,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Woodtroll, here's the skinny on your cases, so far.

As found, they were obviously not resized after their last firing. We can call that 'fireformed', but how close that chamber matches yours (or mine) will remain a mystery. Anyway, being unsized, you would expect them to be 'short'...and they certainly were.
I have no way of knowing if they have ever been trimmed, but the begining length was 2.078" to 2.083".

I stretched one, partially resized it, and measured the length. It was all the way up to 2.095".
I re-configured the punch for maximum stretch (it's adjustable) and ran all of them.

The length is +/- 2.112"...as measured right out of the stretcher.
Your job will be to full-length resize them but only as much as you need to.

This is that trial and error thing I mentioned earlier.
In their present condition they are too fat to chamber, and shorter than they will be when you finish messing with them. I think they will lengthen enough to meet your requirement.

Since you shoot fireformed cases, your procedure will go like this...
- Back your resizing die out of the press about eight turns.
- Run a case into the die, then see if it will chamber in your rifle.
- If not, turn the die into the press one turn and do it all again with the same case.

If you keep checking case length, you should see it increase every time you run it into the sizing die. At some point, it may get so long that you wonder if it's too long to chamber.
This is a tricky place to be. If you think length is keeping it from chambering, you'll want to trim it. BUT...if it is actually diameter that is interfering, the trimming will waste unrecoverable metal.

At this point, you should expand the case mouth to fireformed diameter, so it will bump against the chamber step if length is causing the interference. If the case just feels like it is wedging into a hole that is too small, you still need some resizing die adjustment.

But, expand the mouth after each future pass through the sizing die, so you will know it when the mouth hits the chamber step. If that happens, you will need to trim a little off to proceed...if the case is still too fat.

This is a tedious process, but it results in this first case having a shape almost identical to what you get when fireforming it by shooting.
And...by doing this carefully, you wind up with one case of the desired shape, that is also exactly as long as your chamber.

Once you find the right setting for the FL resizing die, you can just run all the rest of your cases through at that setting...and trim to your final length after adjusting neck size to your preference.

As I said, these cases were quite short to begin with, so I stretched them as far as I could without modifying my tool. They needed to grow quite a bit to meet your length in a fireformed configuration. I can't know how much they will lengthen by the time you get them to fit your chamber. If they don't grow as much as you need, let me know...we'll try something else.

CM

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,

I had "thought through" a vague form of the process you described, but having the details spelled out really helps- THANKS! That means as much as, or more than, the offer of the brass.

PM sent, sir.

Thanks to everyone here who offered advice and assistance!

Safe shooting, folks,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Ok Reagan,
Your cases are packed, and should go out tomorrow (Tuesday). They will go Priority Mail, so you should see them in just a few days.

You will find three cases bundled with masking tape. I stretched those before I remembered to full-length resize the whole batch (a requirement for stretching).

They stretched okay, but they acted 'stubborn'. So you may want to keep them separate and watch for signs of trouble. The worst that could happen is a head seraration, and that is usually not dangerous...just disappointing.

Since we have had no separations reported by any of our customers, it's hard for me to guess how quickly they might fail. But, if they make it through two or three firings, they are probably fine.

All of this brass still has traces of lanolin on it, which was used as the lube for stretching. A good wipe with acetone, lighter fluid, or alcohol should get 'em squeaky clean.

And...speaking of 'clean'...I ran them for thirty minutes in an ultrasonic cleaner, then tumbled four hours in wet ceramic and four hours in fortified walnut shell.
I think they came out pretty spiffy...if I do say so, myself.

Good luck with them. Remember, when you finally realize you need the ability to tailor cases to your chamber...you can get the tool from Rick and me.

(You should have received a PM saying all of this, but I posted it to the thread in case the PM thing is on the blink...)

CM

[Woodtroll]

I got the PM fine, Charlie, and thanks again.

It may be a couple weeks or so until I get time to load and shoot these, but I will post and let everyone know how it all turns out.

Thanks to everyone for their help! Y'all take care,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Reagan,
In your last PM you asked about where to find the video of our case stretcher, and about the price.

I am going to answer those here because I want everyone to know how to find those things.

But first, just to be clear...
When we found out how much force was needed to do the work, we abandoned a plan to make something that mounts in a reloading press. Therefore the Kal-Max Case Stretching Jig is just that. It's a 'jig' which holds the case and everything else in alignment. The force that operates the jig is provided by a 4-ton hydraulic porto power ram.

If you own a Kal-Max, you can rent, borrow, or buy a porto power to use with it. But, everybody needs to know it is a requirement.

The orange pump and ram being used in the video are from the Harbor Freight porto power...which sells for about eighty bucks.

The video is here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGzQsrPT4Qs

And, the price information is here (halfway down the page)...
http://kal.castpics.net/

CM

[texasmac]

Hey there Charlie,

After purchasing a stretcher from you some time ago you may remember that I inquired about the possibility of a modification to stretch new .45-70 Rem. to .45-90 lengths. Although I decided not to pursue the modification, I was wondering if, since then, you’d experimented on your own to see how far you can stretch a .45-70 Rem. case?

Wayne

[pietro]

Starline makes .45-70 brass in lengths of 2.1", 2.4" and 2.6" - but seems to sell them only in batches of 250.

http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1

Mayhaps you could place a WTB ad somewhere, specifying those.

.

[montana_charlie]

Although I decided not to pursue the modification, I was wondering if, since then, you’d experimented on your own to see how far you can stretch a .45-70 Rem. case?
No, Wayne, I have not done that experiment.
I have seen comment on the forums about head separations with the BACO stretched 45/90, so I felt no driving need to find out what it takes.

We had one customer with some 'unusual' requirements, so that is when I finished up the design for the (current) adjustable punch.
The (special) one I sent him was able to pull his 45/90 cases out a full tenth of an inch.

I expect your stretcher shipped with the original type of punch...which was brand-specific in it's diameter. I don't remember which punch (Rem or Starline) you ordered.

If you would like to experiment on your own, here's how...
Make up a duplicate of your punch.
- Reduce the nose length by grinding 50 thousandths off of the end of the 'pilot'.
- Stretch a case, and see what you get.
- Continue to decrease nose length until you get the increase you are looking for, but do it by grinding the taper to a steeper angle while keeping the 'neck of the pilot' the same length you made it.

What you are doing is starting the stretch at a deeper point in the case.

If you shorten the nose so much that the punch enters the die when seating the punch, you may cut the head off of the case. But, you will certainly have gotten as deep as the dimensions allow.

It's quite possible you will have reached 2.4 inches by this time.
But, if you have a deep 45/90 chamber that needs 'tailored cases', this is probably not the stuff you should be starting with.

CM

[texasmac]

Charlie,

Thanks for the suggestion on how to proceed with the experiment. You may not remember but shortly after purchasing the stretcher I bought an extra punch with the intentions of doing exactly what you've described, although I had not considered changing the taper.

I did not realize you made a special punch for Starline. I just read all of our emails when I purchased the stretcher and the question of Remington or Starline was not discussed. How do I know which punch I have? Based on you comments I assume the punch diameter will be different.

Assuming I have the correct punch to handle Rem. brass I will also need a Starline punch since my Browning .45-90 chamber is 2.423". I assume the same die will work with Rem. & Starline?

Wayne

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,

Thanks for the suggestion on how to proceed with the experiment. You may not remember but shortly after purchasing the stretcher I bought an extra punch with the intentions of doing exactly what you've described, although I had not considered changing the taper.
I did not realize you made a special punch for Starline. I just read all of our emails when I purchased the stretcher and the question of Remington or Starline was not discussed. How do I know which punch I have? Based on you comments I assume the punch diameter will be different.
If you have all of those emails, one of them should have me asking what brand of brass you wanted to stretch. I had to know that before I could send the order to Rick. Could the conversation have started in a forum thread somewhere, where that was clarified before you first contacted me by email?
If nothing else, you probably remember what brand you were working with when you decided to buy a Kal-Max...no?

In any case, a punch intended for Remington and Bell cases should be ~.468" in the hardened/polished area, and a Starline punch will measure ~.471".
If you have two punches, you probably have both sizes...and now you know which one is for which brass.

To try to make 45/90 cases from 45/70 brass, I would probably be tempted to use the larger diameter...even if it was Remington brand cases I wanted to modify.

Assuming I have the correct punch to handle Rem. brass I will also need a Starline punch since my Browning .45-90 chamber is 2.423". I assume the same die will work with Rem. & Starline?
The same die works for all because it's an 'external dimension' which all chambers are governed by. The punch is an 'internal thing' that varies by brass manufacturer.

At least, that was true with the original punches. The adjustable punch has an 'in between' diameter, with an adjustment for 'depth' in the case. It works for any brand that is stretchable.

After you measure those two punches, we can see what you might need...
CM

[texasmac]

Ah ha, you said the magic words "adjustable punch". Both of my punches are the adjustable version and measure exactly 0.4691". Since these work for both Rem. and Starline I can understand why the question never came up, although we may have discussed it on the forum as you indicated. So it seems I'm in good shape and can handle both Rem & Starline with one punch and experiment with the other one.

Charlie, you're a good man. For anyone reading this thread I highly recommend The Kal-Max stretcher. It works well for the job it was designed for as long as you follow the instructions, which, by the way, are well written.

Wayne

[montana_charlie]

So it seems I'm in good shape and can handle both Rem & Starline with one punch and experiment with the other one.
Doncha you love it when a plan comes together?

The two major parts of the adjustable punch are the 'shank' and the 'anvil'.
You would eliminate all of the adjustment shims and reduce the narrow neck on the anvil by 50 thousandths.
After stretching a case, you would have an idea of how much 50 thousandths would gain for you.
You can go until you take the entire neck off of the anvil, if necessary, and start grinding layers off the screw head if you need to dump more length.

But, once the shoulder of the anvil starts to enter the die when seating the punch, you are getting real close to the limit of what the dimensions will allow.
You can keep going shorter (in smaller steps) but when you finally take the head off of a case you'll have a lot of fun getting the case off of the punch.

Like my two Islamic buddies, 'Ayhava bin Dher' and 'al Redhi Dundat'

One nice thing about drastically shortening the neck on that anvil...if you add enough shims, you can get it back to original length.

CM

[Woodtroll]

Folks, I thought I would post a brief update on my progress, although I haven't had time to shoot any loads yet...

I have not had a chance to fire any of the brass Charlie stretched for me, but have just recently had an opportunity to fit them to my chamber. I found that a case with a mouth 0.481" OD, with an OAL of 2.118", would chamber and seemed to be just bumping the end of the chamber. A case any larger in diameter, or any longer, would not chamber. So much for Kirk maintaining that his chambers are never longer than 2.100"...

Not all of Charlie's brass was quite long enough, even after minimal resizing to make them fit the chamber, but many are pretty close. I certainly have enough to experiment with, and it is a big improvement over the 2.090" brass I was using, which left almost 0.030" of the bullet unsupported in the chamber. I have found that my smokeless PP bullets that I use for hunting in my Marlin 1895 are almost a perfect fit for this brass as-is: 0.451" bullets wrapped to 0.459" will thumbseat in these cases, and will just barely chamber in my Shiloh. I had planned to use smaller (0.441" unpatched) bullets in my Shiloh, but just to see what happens I may try these groove-diameter bullets, too. I do shoot only black powder in the Shiloh, though. I hope to be able to shoot some this weekend, and will keep you posted on whether the paper rings disappear.

Thanks for your help and your interest! Y'all take care,
Regan

[montana_charlie]

Not all of Charlie's brass was quite long enough, even after minimal resizing to make them fit the chamber, but many are pretty close. I certainly have enough to experiment with,
As I told you, those cases were from a bag of 'free brass' a guy sent me, and I don't know their history. I couldn't say if the original owner ever trimmed them, but they came to me a 2.080"...which is pretty danged short.
Adding 40 thousandths is right at the outer limit of an unmodified Kal-Max punch,
so it's good to know that (at least) some of them pulled out long enough to fit your gun.

I had planned to use smaller (0.441" unpatched) bullets in my Shiloh, but just to see what happens I may try these groove-diameter bullets, too.
I'm also trying to get patched-to-groove bullets to perform over black powder. If you discover any magic...share!

CM

[texasmac]

Regan

I may be misinterpreting your comments, but it sounds to me as if you are using an actual case to determine the ideal overall case length. If so, than I caution you that doing so can be misleading. Due to the angle of the transition step and other factors, as far as I know, the only accurate way to determine the ideal overall case length for the average shooter is to make an impact casting using a shortened case and soft lead. Another slightly less accurate way is to take a normal chamber cast with Cerrosafe and then separately measure the headspace and headspace clearance, which in itself is not a straight forward measurement. What I’m inferring is you may actually have a 2.1” chamber, but when the headspace clearance is added along with a few thousands thrown in for some portion of the transition step, you may in fact be able to shove in a case 2.118” long, but it may not be the ideal case OAL. In reality, it doesn’t make any difference as long as you are sure of the maximum length. What you don't want to do is overestimate the length and use an over-length case, which can lead to other problems. Just something to keep in mind.

Wayne

[montana_charlie]

Regan

I may be misinterpreting your comments, but it sounds to me as if you are using an actual case to determine the ideal overall case length. If so, than I caution you that doing so can be misleading. Due to the angle of the transition step and other factors, as far as I know, the only accurate way to determine the ideal overall case length for the average shooter is to make an impact casting using a shortened case and soft lead.
Wayne,
Reagan's opening post said...

My chamber slug shows my chamber a little long at 2.120" or so,
That probably translates into 'impact casting'...but it surely shows he had a ballpark figure to work toward that was not determined by inserting a 'long' case.

With the case mouth expanded (or even 'flared') to fully fill the chamber at the mouth, the case cannot wedge into the step, giving a false impression of overall chamber depth.

Regan used the procedure that I use (and described in the instruction sheet that came with your Kal-Max) even though I also start with a chamber cast to set an initial goal.
And, his choice for final length is two thousandths shorter than his 'slug' indicated.

My communications with Reagan convinced me he is a careful workman with a good mechanical appitude. He quickly understands dimensional relationships with only simple descriptions of 'complicated' shapes.

Additionally, shooting soft lead with black powder, he won't create a 'dangerous' situation, even if his cases are one or two thousandths too long.
If they come out of the chamber with a slight 'crimp' on the mouth (felt more than seen), he is aware enough to notice...and knowledgeable enough to know what to do.

I think he'll do fine...

CM

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,
Thanks for your reply. You did indeed tell me the cases were still a little shorter than what you thought they would be. I certainly did not mean my comment to imply that you did not supply what you offered, just that not all of the cases were quite long enough to work out to my intended length (which is what you had anticipated to begin with). Several did, though, and that's how I was able to determine max. case length using the comments you posted above. Without these cases, I couldn't have even gotten that far. You have helped me out tremendously by supplying the cases you had, and I truly appreciate it! And, if these groove-diameter bullets shoot well, I'll surely let you know.

Wayne,
Thanks for the comments, and you are dead on. When I first got this rifle a couple years back, I did an impact casting exactly as you described. My measurement from that casting as formed showed a chamber length of 2.120", as best as I could measure with dial calipers, and chamber diameter 0.4815" just before the 45 degree transition into the lead. The casting showed a ring of chamber-diameter lead that was about 0.030" long at the mouth of the 2.090" long case ; that's what lead me to ask Shiloh about the chamber length to begin with. That's when I was told that there was no way their chambers were longer than 2.10". Mine must be an exception.

I wanted to make sure that my casting was right, even though I've used this same technique on every rifle I've owned over the last 20 years or so (and I even save the case and casting for future reference). So, using one of the longest cases Charlie sent me, which ended up being about 2.125" after resizing just enough to be a snug fit in the chamber, I started belling the case mouth in the smallest increments I was able to accomplish in my press. As the mouth was gradually expanded and the case was "try fit" each time, I could actually feel the taper of the chamber transition, as the case would be just slightly further from chambering each time (it began to "back out" of the chamber as the diameter grew, if that paints a better picture). I ended up with a case with a mouth 0.481" diameter, if I remember correctly, that slid freely into the chamber but then bumped up against a solid stop just shy of chambering- the beginning of the transition.

Again wanting to make sure, since I definitley don't want an over-long case that will separate and get the case "neck" stuck somewhere down the bore as I have seen happen to others, I decided to do one more experiment. I took the too-long case, and using a Redding case trimmer I cut it down just a couple thousandths at a time until it would chamber freely, then inserted a groove-diameter patched bullet to make sure the case was not "crushing" into the tapered transition at the mouth of the chamber. This round chambered fine, but another round prepared similarly but only 0.003" longer caused the block to drag as I brought it up.

I'm pretty sure, with these three tests showing me the same OAL, that at least a couple of pieces of my brass are almost exactly as long as the chamber is. When the cartridge fires, the case will swell and shorten slightly, if my before-and-after length measurements prove correct, so I should still be okay on length. Once I see if this makes any difference in accuracy and, more importantly, eliminates the paper rings left in my chamber, I will just use the brass that is a little shorter already, just to be on the safe side.

I really appreciate y'all's input and help with this- I'm always learning something from someone here! The proof is in the pudding, though, and I will try to get out this weekend and do some trial shooting, and let you know what happens.

Thanks again, guys!
Regan

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,

Thanks for the vote of confidence- I was typing (slowly- the only way I can) as you were posting, I guess, so my last post may seem a reply to YOUR last post at 01:25 PM, which it actually is not. But, thanks anyway!

I don't take Wayne's post as a slight at all, just a caution to someone he doesn't know (and others who may be reading this thread) to be careful that you are really seeing what is actually there. A few thousandths in diameter could indeed change the apparent length of the chamber, as you also made clear when you outlined the process to me. I really do appreciate the thoughts behind ALL of the posts on this thread!

Take care, gentlemen!
Regan

[texasmac]

Charlie,

Thanks for clarifying the situation, and Regan, I appreciate the additional details and your interpretation/understanding of my intentions. By the way, I did not miss your earlier comment that you had made a slug of the chamber. What did not register was that your usage of the term "slug" in fact meant an impact casting. Now that I have the additional details from you and Charlie, its apparent that you have an excellent grasp of the situation and are taking the correct approach using well thought out techniques.

Regards,
Wayne

[Woodtroll]

Folks,

It took longer than I thought to get time to experiment with the longer cases, but the upshot is that I am still getting paper rings. To make it more appropriate as to category, I am going to start a new thread in the Paper Patch category, which will summarize what we've talked about here. The thread is titled 'Paper Rings and "Short" Brass'. Thanks for everyone's help!

Y'all take care!
Regan