Different papers versus Barrell life

[barrabruce]

Probably been done to death but can't seem to find any info on it.

different paper vesus barrell life.

Printer paper
Lined note pad paper seems popular
Cig papers
Tracing paper
Onion skin.
Iv'e read the long thread on paper but... anyone got any ideas???

Say compared to Jacket stuff or gas checked bullets.

Are we looking in the 1-5000 range 5-10000 , 25-30000 range ...ever and a day!!!
Well I only got a 30-30 so it should last a bit.

Iv'e trying out brown paper, lined note pad has worked well so far. Tracing paper and the odd cig paper. Plus what ever else I can find.
Just wondering how some of these shape up into the grand sceme of things
I know that the printer paper be one of the worst for abrasion.

I know I will probably not be able to shoot out the barrell in a few years but???

Barra

[docone31]

Barra,
Unless you use Wet or Dry sandpaper, your barrel will last longer than with jacketeds!
When sizeing the wrapped boolitt, you will use some kind of lube. I personally prefer Auto Wax, for cars. A little dab will do ya!
Paper, after wrapping and letting dry, gets dense. Once it starts down the barrel, not only does the steel get polished, but, the paper also takes on a polish.
Antimony in a casting is more abrasive than paper, unless the paper is contaminated with grit, or dirt.
It is simple,
Wrap it, dry it, wax it, size it, load it, fire it. Casually run a cleaning rod through the bore at the end of the day and be amazed at how few strokes it takes.

[pdawg_shooter]

There is no way I will ever have enough money to shoot out a barrel with paper patched bullets! Much kinder on a barrel than jacketed!

[303Guy]

Casually run a cleaning rod through the bore ....No cleaning required at all! I shot a few J-words followed by a few paper patched - clean as a wistle! A session with my five-groove and paper patched and boy, what a shiny clean bore! A cleaning wad came up clean on first pass. (At the moment I am lubing my patched boolits with STP - that's mainly for convenience. I've no idea if it's good or bad but it's supposed to protect the bore from corrosion).
:drinks:

[yeahbub]

I agree with docone and pdawg. I've had occasion to examine schutzen rifles, both muzzleloading and cartridge from the 19th century and the rifling was still crisp in most. Some were still in use and winning matches. The paper they originally used, according to the fellows shooting them, was "bank note paper" which was 100% rag paper, usually cotton lint. It can still be had these days in the form of drafting vellum, which usually has a water mark that says 100% cotton. That's what I use. Interestingly, I saw an article less than ten years ago about the difficulty Levi Strauss was facing over the disposal of all the cotton lint from producing clothes, since it had been classified as hazardous waste by the usual suspects. Their answer was to make paper out of it - a classic free market solution, and waaaay better than making land fill of it. I've never been able to track down what form it shows up in or find samples of it. Maybe someone could comment on that.

My preference for lubing/sizing is to use Johnson Paste Wax, since the only thing left when it dries is carnauba wax. I thought of going docone's route and using car wax, but some of it contains diatomaceous earth, an abrasive, to scrub off oxidized paint and dirt. Usually the label will say it contains "cleaners", but I'm not well versed enough to tell for sure, so I use JPW and call it good.

[Hubertus]

Hi barrabruce,
you stated you've been using cig paper for patching.
I am totally new to the whole thing, just reading the Internet and of course this forum and getting really eager to try it in a 45-70. Unfortunately onion skin paper is not to be had in my corner of the world. Manufacturing simply stopped! :roll:
I cannot cast myself, but could get my hands on some boolits: 500gr/.459 and 340gr/.457. I would like to avoid sizing - since I don't have a sizing-die. Well, the next best thinnest thing I could think of was cig paper.
I am interested in your results with cig paper and of course comments are welcome.
Please excuse my English and I don't want to hijack the thread - I am just looking for real life experience.
Hubertus

[303Guy]

Hubertus, do you guys have KFC in your parts? Over here they use a very thin and tough paper in their food cartons that looks like tracing paper. Might be worth a try. And your English is pretty good!:drinks:

[barrabruce]

I have only tried cig papers on a bullet that was too long to chamber and seat on my rifle with out the base of the bullet extending past the neck.

I tried folded cig paper so that I could get 1 wrap around the nose section and 2 thicknesses around the base.
It sortta worked.
Out of the ten I made up I got one round that left a mark of lead in one spot on the bore. Obviously there was either a small hole in the 0.0015 thou paper or it broke though it.
If you wrapped enough it could work maybe..but I'm just a babe in the woods.
I have tried a few with cig papers wrapped dry at the end of the day (different bullet) and seemed to work o.k. with out any ill effects. Althou arrucary was non existant like the rest of my groups.That day.:)
Have found the issue i think.
What ever your groove is + 0.0015 seems to work best for me in my gun so far.

Barra

[montana_charlie]

Barrabruce,
As an alternative, you might look into lens cleaning tissue. Companies that produce it often make it available in larger sheets, for cleaning things bigger than eyeglasses.

CM

[45 2.1]

Go to a Drafting or Art supply and get tracing paper.

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

I know of no study that has been done on the subject of barrel life and different types of paper, or any study of paper patch vs. jacketed or cast boolits on bore life. However, Mike Venturino in his book on shooting buffalo guns of the Old West comments on examining original Sharps rifles' barrels with a borescope and seeing rounded rifling worn from paper patch bullets. I do not think that it will be an issue with me, as I do not shoot a thousand paper patch boolits a week. Should I be so fortunate to outlive my barrel I will gladly buy a new one. I second what 303 Guy says about the ease of cleaning a bore after shooting paper patch boolits!

Hubertus: Sie schreiben auf English sehr gut, viel besser als ich auf Deutsch!

[montana_charlie]

However, Mike Venturino in his book on shooting buffalo guns of the Old West comments on examining original Sharps rifles' barrels with a borescope and seeing rounded rifling worn from paper patch bullets.
Antique guns with 'old' steel used in the barrel. A combination of 'mileage' and metallurgy?
CM

[1874Sharps]

CM,

You make a good point about the metallurgy of the 19th century being inferior to modern ordnance steel!

[rhead]

Antique guns with 'old' steel used in the barrel. A combination of 'mileage' and metallurgy?
CM


The question should be how would they look after that many jacketed bullets?

[Hubertus]

303Guy, barra and 1874Sharps, thanks for the recommendations and compliments.
It's really a great platform here and I enjoy reading and communication very much. :drinks:
I will see what I can find and try it. Tracing paper is a little bit thicker as cig paper and again for now I wanted to avoid the sizing, maybe I should be looking into buying a die anyway. But maybe the solution is near with the help of on one of fellow forum members. I will start a thread when I am ready with the development, thank you again.

Yes, it would be really interesting to see how currently manufactured rifles look like after thousands of PP boolits through it.

Hubertus

[stace]

Hubertus
Am only just getting into this as well but have tried dress pattern paper and it is very thin depending on brand (McCalls,I have found to .0015,while Simplicity and Butterick patterns are a tad thicker from memory )
The pattern paper is strong and is shaping up to work ok in my 45/70 but I am yet to get organised and buy a sizing die
You do however get some funny looks from the salesgirls behind the counter,but am used to that now from years of shooting muzzeloaders and chasing patching material
stace

[303Guy]

... dress pattern paper ...There's an idea!:drinks:

... comments on examining original Sharps rifles' barrels with a borescope and seeing rounded rifling worn from paper patch bullets.Original sharps barrels still had rifling in them?! I wonder how much wear was caused by dust collecting on the paper patches?

[Digital Dan]

A few suggestions/thoughts:

-Look at the top of the PP forum menu and read "Paper 101".

-Avoid glossy or very opaque paper as it contains kaolin which is abrasive.

-Given a proper diet of paper the life of your bore will likely exceed yours.

-Isolating this in context of number of rounds is probably not a practical endeavor due to the variables involved

-Don't be too quick to suggest that today's metallurgy is vastly superior to yesterday's so far at alloy and application. Susceptibility to corrosion notwithstanding, many of the damascus steels of the past are equally strong when compared to today's steel and many such barrels have been nitro proofed. Many barrels of yesteryear are still performing great precision in competition today. It's not so much a matter of strength or toughness as application anyway. If it meets required standards it's good enough. AND, there are barrel makers today that build barrels of somewhat suspect materials...in my opinion. It's been debated hotly elsewhere........I will not be drawn into the discussion. Deep subject, strong opinions, been there and ain't going back.

[runfiverun]

paper from a phone book might fit the bill also...
hubertus say hi to tiger for me if you will..

[barrabruce]

Iv'e tried dry wrapping some brown packing paper I got 50c for 50mtres. Mikes in at around 1 thou smaller when wrapped dry than the lined note book paper, Just @ bore size. IF I wrap them wet its shrinks too small for me.
If I can get them in the cases I'll load 'em up and see how they go.
Made a sizing reamer thingo for sized cases and I can seat the bullets now with at least an even neck pressure.
Not having a sizer die to size after wrapping I'm more of a wrap to fit at this stage.

That and be wonky .301 " knock'em thought die I can't see any groups breaking any records :)
Can't seem to find any Johson wax paste but got some poly glaze car polish instead.
It comes out milky white and I think it may have some clay in it or some thing.
I rubbed a bit on about 30 bullets and yes they do polish up hard with a good bub or pushed into a case neck and taken out with some pliers. But I decided to re wrap 'em and shoot them dry.
With a sizer I can see how they would come out hard as nails and waxy looking.

I know to some this may seem BLASTOMY but I was thinking of maybe bible pages. They are usually thin.
But haven't one to mike or test out. Wonder if I'd go better with a giddians or a new or old testiment.:)



Have to re read the paper 101 again as it gets twisted abit in parts and sort of goes of in a tangent and back again.

Thanks for replys. I'm fully confident know that even lined paper wouldn't hopefully be too bad for my bore.
At least it will fire lap shiny and smooth after a while, I hope.
I do like the clean bore and easy clean up.
Wonder if they would work at very low velocities.
Easier to lube for lower stuff but still

Barra

[303Guy]

I've thought of Bible pages myself but I haven't found one being thrown out - not recently, anyway (and I can't bring myself to use a good one).

[Hubertus]

Digital Dan, thanks for reminding me. I read the Paper 101 already but it's good to read it again and get some new ideas.

stace, Dress Pattern Paper sounds like a very good idea too, the only question is where can I get the hat, sunglases and glue-on mustache to go and buy it .:mrgreen:
Maybe I should just live up to the challenge.

runfiverun, phonebook, hmm, I thought about that too, might worth trying.
Unfortunately I am on the road right now and not at home - as soon as I get home I will get the Mike out and do some more homework.
Another idea I had was shoe-box paper. I am calling it so in lack of another term.
When you buy new shoes they are usuall wrapped in quite thin fibery paper, don't know if it's the same in your parts. OK, I will have to mike all those.

runfiverun, I am sorry I might be standing on the line a bit here, who is tiger???

barra, thanks for asking those questions, that helped me a lot on my end too.
Again as soon as I have all things set up, I will start a thread. There is going to be some testing done. I already have cooked a batch of altered Felix lube and try this too. But that is another story.:drinks:

[Hubertus]

Not to forget you, it's always nice to read your posts but the KFC will not work or other fast food joints. The paper here is quite glossy and waxy. I don't think this will be good.

[BrentD]

I am not a believer that the paper much matters beyond
1. It adds exactly the right diameter to the bullet - otherwise you must size the patched bullet to that perfect diameter.

2. It is easy to handle and work with. Thinner papers with some cotton content being generally better in this way because they fold over easily and they don't tear while wrapping wet or dry.

So, 90% of the time, I use a 9# paper that adds 0.007" to the bullet's diameter. This matches perfectly with my .443" bullet and 0.450" land diameters on all of my .45s.

Once in a great while I use a thicker paper (if shooting over fouling; Bienfang 360 Graphics paper), and sometimes I use a very tough cooking parchment paper that is the same thickness as my normal paper but much tougher and more waterproof. It is very slick and if paper can significantly wear a bore (I don't believe it), then this paper will do so to a much lesser degree. You can find cooking parchment in nearly any cooking supply shop and most grocery stores.

Brent

[barrabruce]

I haven't been able to get cooking paper to stick to the bullet yet.
Tried some bicarb soda and even wall paper glue which seemed to stink a bit.
The folds or twist seemed to not keep in place well and still ride up on the bullet when seating.

Iv'e made a .309 sizer die out of a 243 necking die for me super simplex press.
That and me super dooper tapered expander thingo things are looking up.
Can hand seat with thumb tension to nearly seating depth then seat them all the way down prpoer with the lee load all.

The paper patcings come out around.3098 and the gas checks and plain cast comes out around .3093"

Took a bit with a hand drill and grinder as I had to hone out about 15 thou!!! after drilling. As the bore aint concentric to the previous hole I made a floating push pin to compensate.

Now happy as one can be and eager to try out my new bullets.

Having done all that and said all that they probalby won't shoot now :-D:-D
But time shall tell and not particularly worried if I don't ...just a learning curve.

Tried Docones31's wrapping a unsized bullet and then sizing.
Takes two passes on mine to get it down to about 1 thou over normal size. With two papers wrapped (about 18 thou)it takes a fair bit of getting through the old simplex press and 3 passses to get it down to size. the paper it well hard!!! The core has been swaged down from 309 to 301 thou.:drinks:

Cheers Barra