Public Acknowledgement

[Jumptrap]

Bullet noses slump and that's all there is to it.

And;

The Earth is flat, pie shaped and also only 6,000 years old.

The Free Masons control the Government and first came here in flying saucers.....Pharaoh was a Mason and the Washington Monument is just a skinny pyramid.......World domination is their goal. They have their eye(s) on us at all times.....if you don't believe it....just get out a dollar bill and look.
The best protection from an atomic blast is to dig a hole and stick your head in it.

McDonald's hamburgers have earth worms in them.....it has to be true, somebody on the Internet said it was.

Space aliens crashed one winter while on a mission to give the US Government the secrets to the A-Bomb in exchange for vitamin C....which their planet was a short of, resulting in birth defects like bulging eyes and slit mouths, enlarged brains and small penis's......cleaning up the crash is how we also discovered what party balloons are made of.

The army failed to find everything at the crash site and this conclusive evidence was discovered the next spring after the snow melted.

[peter nap]

Yep! All true.
I read it all on th innernet and verified it through a feller I met at the gun shop. He knows because he heard it from his cousins ex grirfriends next door neighbors boyfriend and he's a cop.

[jhrosier]

My dog confirmed all of the above except the age of the earth, which he claims is actually 42,000 years.

Jack

[Guesser]

Being a proud member of "The Flat Earth Society" and a procrastinator extrordinaire I predict Barak Obama will become the first black president of"WHAT"?

[462]

America's primer and powder shortage is irrefutibly traceable to wiley space aliens, who have been secretly stealing them from un-guarded warehouses, as they have had to revert back to the ancient form of smokless powder propelled guns since their ray-gun manufacturers can't keep pace with the demand created by the lunatic agendas of their recently anointed Supreme and Dear Leader.

[Heavy lead]

About time somebody fess' up on this.

[fatnhappy]

the moon landing was staged. I know this because my cousin's exwife's friend's sister inlaw's boyfriend was a cameraman at the area 51 soundstage.

[snaggdit]

So that's why the shotgun primers have remained available but not the pistol and rifle...

[44man]

Most conventional .22 caliber bullets use antimony as a lead hardening agent because of its low cost. However, because antimony and lead do not form a true alloy, bullets with antimony have inherent problems. The antimony often settles out when mixed and molded prior to wire extrusion and bullet making, thus causing poor uniformity of hardness. These conventional bullets are also subject to erratic hardening due to a process called "precipitation hardening". The hardness of antimony-lead bullets is not only a function of the composition, but also the melt temperature and quench rate in the mold (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5275108/description.html#). Further the hardness of antimony and lead compounds also decreases with age, which softening process is more pronounced at higher storage temperatures. Also an antimony-lead bullet is abrasive, which causes more fouling of the barrel with lead. All of the foregoing adds up to poor uniformity of the bullet hardness which is very detrimental to bullet accuracy.

After the propellant has been loaded, the bullet 16 is pressed into the case mouth. The bullet and case mouth are then cannelured by a machine which turns the bell mouth inwards to securely couple the bullet to the case. The crimped case mouth engages a circumferential groove, that is, cannelure 18, formed on the external surface of the heel 28 of the bullet 16.

The amount of force required to pull the bullet longitudinally out of the case is known as the "bullet pull". It is crucial that the bullet pull vary as little as possible from one cartridge to the next. If the bullet is not held firmly enough, it may be prematurely propelled down the barrel before the required pressure has built up behind it.

After the bullet has been secured to the case, the bullet is dipped in liquid lubricant. After the bullet is removed from the bath, the excess liquid drips off, leaving a thin film of lubricant on the bullet surface with extra lubricant accumulated in the knurls 20. The lubricant is also very important for accurate shooting. If the bullet were not coated with lubricant, then lead would be removed from the circumference as the bullet traveled down the barrel. It is desirable that lubricant deposits are formed on the surface of the barrel as each bullet passes, which deposits facilitate the travel of the subsequently fired bullets.

The heel 28 of the conventional bullet has a domed recess 30 arranged symmetrically with respect to the bullet axis. When the bullet is fired, the heel expands radially out to the barrel surface. The alignment of the bullet in the barrel depends on a perfectly axi-symmetrical radial expansion of the heel. Thus conventional .22 caliber bullets have the disadvantage that unsymmetrical radial expansion of the bullet heel is detrimental to accuracy.

Conventional .22 caliber bullets are made of soft lead having a hardness of 6-8 BHN. The use of soft lead bullets is disadvantageous because it deforms and slumps upon firing, which is deleterious to accuracy. Also as previously mentioned, .22 caliber bullets with antimony added to the lead suffer from nonuniformity of the bullet hardness, which again adversely affects the bullet accuracy.

For all of you that do not believe. Notice that most .22 bullets have antimony in them.

[44man]

What is bullet slump?
When the bullet starts down the barrel, it accelerates to roughly 65-85% of its full velocity in the first few inches of the barrel and depending on the burn rate of the powder, so the base of the bullet with the gas column behind it will compress until it has nowhere to go but down the barrel. The nose section will resist the initial acceleration and the bullet will distort, shorten, or “slump”. With pure lead and softer alloys, this is a problem and can be a cause of instability. Slump can be controlled by designing the bullet with as much support as possible, and/or a harder alloy. Generally speaking, slump is not a problem with alloys of 1-20 lead/tin and harder.

Another one I found.

[44man]

More.

Why Match Quality Bullets Are Required

Unlike BPCR silhouette, where the rams are at 500 yards (or meters), we are shooting at 1,000 yards. There are several requirements that a bullet must have in order to accurately travel the half-mile journey to the target. The Long Range match grade bullet has to be a better designed, heavier bullet, with a higher ballistic coefficient capable of leaving the muzzle at higher velocities than those typically used in silhouette shooting.

The Long Range match grade bullet must be hard enough so the nose won’t slump (if it’s a bore-riding bullet), yet soft enough so that it will bump-up to be properly engraved by the rifling. It cannot have defects (i.e. voids, nicks, rounded corners). In addition, the lube grooves and wiping bands must be filled out and the base must be flat and sharp.

A one-half grain variance in bullet weight is all that should be tolerated. The Long Range match grade bullet should be shot as cast and not reduced or altered in size in any manner. The lube grooves must contain a lube that can maintain accuracy with just the use of a blow tube for a minimum of 15+ rounds (we recommend using X-Ring Lube (http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Xring.htm)).

[JSnover]

One more undeniable truth: You will ruin your barrel shooting cast boolits.

[Hardcast416taylor]

"....and all the barnyard animals thought Chicken Little was crazy"!Robert

[StarMetal]

The Long Range match grade bullet must be hard enough so the nose won’t slump (if it’s a bore-riding bullet), yet soft enough so that it will bump-up to be properly engraved by the rifling. It cannot have defects (i.e. voids, nicks, rounded corners). In addition, the lube grooves and wiping bands must be filled out and the base must be flat and sharp.

.[/quote]

I though the bullet got engraved by rifling because it's sized bigger then groove diameter. A bore rider rides the bore (tops of the lands) where is going to slump too? Into the grooves? That's called distortion. There's not much unsupported nose on cast rifle bullets even between bearing band type and bore rider type.

Joe

[SciFiJim]

scratch....scratch.....Whut?

[wallenba]

I know a guy who's brother in law worked with a guy who lived next door to a women who heard from her best friend who worked for the secret agency that covers all that stuff up for the government.

[wallenba]

Being a proud member of "The Flat Earth Society" and a procrastinator extrordinaire I predict Barak Obama will become the first black president of"WHAT"?
He's black!?! I thought O'bama was Irish! Erin go Barack!:mrgreen:

[leftiye]

Black Irish?

[leftiye]

Joe - what about the portion of the boolit that is forward of any bore riding, or groove dwelling section of the boolit (also usually known as the ogive)? It is free standing, and unsupported. All that needs to happen for this portion of the boolit (ogive, also known as nose) to deform is for the inertia of acceleration to produce force which exceeds the elastic strength of the lead.

So you don't believe in obturation or bumping up of the boolits either? This seems to have been a pretty well accepted phenomenon in the black powder world for a long time now (800years?). If boolits obturate and "bump up", why wouldn't the noses deform if long enough,and subjected to enough acceleration from high pressures (exacerbated by quick acceleration from fast pressure rise)? Slumping couldn't be a form of distortion?

[44man]

Joe - what about the portion of the boolit that is forward of any bore riding, or groove dwelling section of the boolit (also usually known as the ogive)? It is free standing, and unsupported. All that needs to happen for this portion of the boolit (ogive, also known as nose) to deform is for the inertia of acceleration to produce force which exceeds the elastic strength of the lead.

So you don't believe in obturation or bumping up of the boolits either? This seems to have been a pretty well accepted phenomenon in the black powder world for a long time now (800years?). If boolits obturate and "bump up", why wouldn't the noses deform if long enough,and subjected to enough acceleration from high pressures (exacerbated by quick acceleration from fast pressure rise)? Slumping couldn't be a form of distortion?
Thank you, all of the above posters have all posted that a softer boolit is needed to expand so it will obturate but will look the other way when we say the nose also can set back.
Mighty strange thinking! :drinks: Magic boolits??? :bigsmyl2:
Strange again that none post group pictures to explain themselves.
I will never understand why I shoot better groups with cast then I do with jacketed either, I must be wrong somewhere because it just must be the other way around.
It's OK, the neighbor woman is a democrat, lives alone, doesn't work and loves Obama. She can't wait for free health care and is waiting for the free million dollar bills with Obama's picture on them.
I can't explain anything to her either. But I get back at her, I have trained squirrels that eat the wiring and fuel lines in her car! My deer also eat all of her garden. :-D She has Lyme disease from one of my deer friends and I hope brain damage destroys the liberal side but then that will only leave a BB on the other side, Oh well, enough to squat and pee I suppose. [smilie=1:

[geargnasher]

ok, ok I got it! Let's cast boolits with super -hard noses and soft behinds!! That should solve all our problems.

Gear

[runfiverun]

theres something else i am doing wrong.
maybe i need to turn my soft based, softer nosed boolits around?
or is it the hard lube i use that holds everything in place?
or do i need to use faster powder to screw everything up so bad isee the negative effects?
yeah ,thats it....

[Jumptrap]

Joe - what about the portion of the boolit that is forward of any bore riding, or groove dwelling section of the boolit (also usually known as the ogive)? It is free standing, and unsupported. All that needs to happen for this portion of the boolit (ogive, also known as nose) to deform is for the inertia of acceleration to produce force which exceeds the elastic strength of the lead.

So you don't believe in obturation or bumping up of the boolits either? This seems to have been a pretty well accepted phenomenon in the black powder world for a long time now (800years?). If boolits obturate and "bump up", why wouldn't the noses deform if long enough,and subjected to enough acceleration from high pressures (exacerbated by quick acceleration from fast pressure rise)? Slumping couldn't be a form of distortion?

In this instance, you are entering the realm of Fluid Dynamics and the elastic properties of a given medium.

Elasticity is dependent on a wide range of factors, but for the time being, simply consider the bullet's base.....because the time duration of shock wave syne curve is so brief due to the fact the object (bullet) remains motionless for only a couple nanoseconds before it's enertia is overcame and then it begins it's travel down the bore.

You also have the propellant pressures to consider and the resistance of the bore being applied to the projectile.

Clear as mud?

Okay, when that cast projectile gets kicked in the ****, it doesn't hang around long enough to have it's head telescoped down it's throat. Like your fanny getting kicked by a size 13 boot, it (the bullet) gives a little (obturates) and then begins to move in the direction in which it was kicked. Like your head....the bullet nose.....doesn't get yanked to the side so hard it snaps your neck.

One factor, the relative pressures are actually quite low. If the propellant charge was on the order of a full house jacketed load developing in the neighborhood of 60,000 psi....the equation begins to take on a different character....but what really matters is the peak pressure curve and when it occurs during the launch sequence. For example; if the pressure curve was (nearly) instantaneous....like touching off primer cord.....the bullet would probably achieve little or no forward movement before the breech lets go. But it is far less than that....drastically less.

The bullet base absorbs the released energy of the propellant gases, it gives (obturates) as the resiliency of the alloy will permit/allow and then moves forward. The ass end of the bullet has completed it's task. The next sequence that occurs, is the giant leap forward from the cylinder to the barrel. THIS IS WHERE THE CRASH TAKES PLACE. Contrary to popular myth, the forward momentum of the bullet is not stopped at the rifling origin.....but rather, merely impeded. The bullet has not yet achieved maximum velocity as the powder gases are continuing to expand. The bullet has not reached a speed at which it's nose can be wrenched sideways, slammed into the rifling and then miraculously straighten back out while revolving around the center of it's mass (axis) and then exit the bore.

If that nose is slumped, the center of the bullet's nucleus is so severely compromised, that upon exiting the barrel.....it would fly in an arc circumscribed by the rifling twist. It would not travel towards the point of aim.....but somewhere to the right.....or the left, if fired from a Colt.

The damage you nose slump supporters see on recovered bullets occurs not from a slumped/bent nose, but due to the untethered flight from cylinder to barrel. Once the bullet engages the rifling, it follows the bore in a straight line until it exits. It does not skid sideways down the bore, rifling the nose...because it is supposedly slumped over to one side.

For the record......I am not saying you do not recover damaged bullets. I am saying I do not agree with your reasoning and supposed culprit.

[nonferrous]

Have Masons always been free, or did they once charge, if so how much? Also, do they have antimony?
So many questions.

[Nora]

cleaning up the crash is how we also discovered what party balloons are made of.

Come on man don't leave us hangin'!!!! What are they made of? If your gonna bring it up at least have the follow threw to share. :?:

[Marlin Hunter]

Black Irish?


Is that made with Kahlua and Baileys?

http://www.getouttoday.com/bartending/images/baileykahlua.jpg

[StarMetal]

Joe - what about the portion of the boolit that is forward of any bore riding, or groove dwelling section of the boolit (also usually known as the ogive)? It is free standing, and unsupported. All that needs to happen for this portion of the boolit (ogive, also known as nose) to deform is for the inertia of acceleration to produce force which exceeds the elastic strength of the lead.

So you don't believe in obturation or bumping up of the boolits either? This seems to have been a pretty well accepted phenomenon in the black powder world for a long time now (800years?). If boolits obturate and "bump up", why wouldn't the noses deform if long enough,and subjected to enough acceleration from high pressures (exacerbated by quick acceleration from fast pressure rise)? Slumping couldn't be a form of distortion?

No no, not all like that. I do believe in obturate and bump up. Just saying that there's not as much unsupported nose on a rifle bore rider compared to a pistol SWC. That is unless you consider the groove (which the bore rider isn't filling) as unsupported. Get what I mean?

I fit my bore riders so they are just snug in the bore. If they are loose I won't shoot them. With that said I've recovered many of them in good inspectable shape. I'm like the CIS of recovered fired bullets. I study them to see what was right and what was wrong. Now with that said I haven't found any fired bored riders that were engraved more by the rifling then what their snug fit presented by bump up or obturation. Now we know the bump up starts at the rear of the bullet because that's where all the pressure is applied and trying to move the idle bullet. I have found a little bump up just right ahead of the first front band. Maybe I have a good alloy that's taking the stress. You know I push those bullets too from very fast twists. An example is the 140 grain Saeco 6.5 bore rider I shoot in my 6.5 Grendel. If I had that much obturation or bump in the nose riding section I wouldn't be getting the accuracy I get from it.

Joe

[StarMetal]

In this instance, you are entering the realm of Fluid Dynamics and the elastic properties of a given medium.

Elasticity is dependent on a wide range of factors, but for the time being, simply consider the bullet's base.....because the time duration of shock wave syne curve is so brief due to the fact the object (bullet) remains motionless for only a couple nanoseconds before it's enertia is overcame and then it begins it's travel down the bore.

You also have the propellant pressures to consider and the resistance of the bore being applied to the projectile.

Clear as mud?

Okay, when that cast projectile gets kicked in the ****, it doesn't hang around long enough to have it's head telescoped down it's throat. Like your fanny getting kicked by a size 13 boot, it (the bullet) gives a little (obturates) and then begins to move in the direction in which it was kicked. Like your head....the bullet nose.....doesn't get yanked to the side so hard it snaps your neck.

One factor, the relative pressures are actually quite low. If the propellant charge was on the order of a full house jacketed load developing in the neighborhood of 60,000 psi....the equation begins to take on a different character....but what really matters is the peak pressure curve and when it occurs during the launch sequence. For example; if the pressure curve was (nearly) instantaneous....like touching off primer cord.....the bullet would probably achieve little or no forward movement before the breech lets go. But it is far less than that....drastically less.

The bullet base absorbs the released energy of the propellant gases, it gives (obturates) as the resiliency of the alloy will permit/allow and then moves forward. The ass end of the bullet has completed it's task. The next sequence that occurs, is the giant leap forward from the cylinder to the barrel. THIS IS WHERE THE CRASH TAKES PLACE. Contrary to popular myth, the forward momentum of the bullet is not stopped at the rifling origin.....but rather, merely impeded. The bullet has not yet achieved maximum velocity as the powder gases are continuing to expand. The bullet has not reached a speed at which it's nose can be wrenched sideways, slammed into the rifling and then miraculously straighten back out while revolving around the center of it's mass and then exit the bore.

If that nose is slumped, the center of the bullet's nucleus is so severely compromised, that upon exiting the barrel.....it would fly in an arc circumscribed by the rifling twist. It would not travel towards the point of aim.....but somewhere to the right.....or the left, if fired from a Colt.

The damage you nose slump supporters see on recovered bullets occurs not from a slumped/bent nose, but due to the untethered flight from cylinder to barrel. Once the bullet engages the rifling, it follows the bore in a straight line until it exits. It does not skid sideways down the bore, rifling the nose...because it is supposedly slumped over to one side.

For the record......I am not saying you do not recover damaged bullets. I am saying I do not agree with your reasoning and supposed culprit.

I was going to address Leftiye's bump/obturation affects the whole bullet, but you seemed to have addressed that. Leftiye I do not believe the upset continues all the way to the nose of a rifle bullet. I believe it is absorbed most near the base and diminishes the further it goes forward.

I'm not siding with Jump, but I kind of go along with the misalignment theory more then the nose slump in pistol bullets. I've had bad sizing experiences that have made bullets look like the ones pictured elsewhere with the "nose slump"....and those were never fired...simply misaligned in the sizer die.

Joe

[44man]

The Long Range match grade bullet must be hard enough so the nose won’t slump (if it’s a bore-riding bullet), yet soft enough so that it will bump-up to be properly engraved by the rifling. It cannot have defects (i.e. voids, nicks, rounded corners). In addition, the lube grooves and wiping bands must be filled out and the base must be flat and sharp.

.

I though the bullet got engraved by rifling because it's sized bigger then groove diameter. A bore rider rides the bore (tops of the lands) where is going to slump too? Into the grooves? That's called distortion. There's not much unsupported nose on cast rifle bullets even between bearing band type and bore rider type.

Joe[/quote]
Yes, the bore ride will expand into the rifling and increase drive length. That is why BPCR's with certain rifling will not shoot a long bore ride. It changes the twist needed for stability.
You fellas are getting there but sit at the desk too much.
Boolit design and shape can control slump at the nose but the wrong boolit will deform enough to ruin accuracy.
I have picked up too many boolits with rifling all the way up one side of the nose with no rifling on the other side to agree with theories figured out while sitting at the desk.
Other boolits with a proper nose design show nice, even rifling marks.
But then you confuse the hell out of guys by saying the bore ride expanding into the grooves is "distortion"! Just what does the word "slump" mean? Did not the nose "slump" back so it expanded to fill the grooves?
If you have rifling on the bore ride, the boolit did indeed SLUMP! [smilie=1:
Hardening the boolit eliminates or reduces it.
Shortening the bore ride and changing the nose also reduces it.
I wonder how the 45-70 Government boolit came about instead of a long, pointy nose? I kind of think they were pretty damned smart back then.
But some of you know how they built the pyramids! :Fire:

[Jumptrap]

Have Masons always been free, or did they once charge, if so how much? Also, do they have antimony?
So many questions.

Well, it depends on where you get them. If new, they are generally sold by the dozen, complete with lids and rings.

One moonshiner used to advertise his wares as being the finest money could buy and delivered in a free Mason, which of course could later be used by the wife to can her beans, once the elixir was properly disposed of.

I suppose one way or the other, they were never actually free.

Any traveling man would know the answer to this question;).

[Jumptrap]

Come on man don't leave us hangin'!!!! What are they made of? If your gonna bring it up at least have the follow threw to share. :?:

The material of course, is Mylar....named after the alien Myopians, the very same beings who traded the A bomb secrets for vitamin C. Due to their diet deficiency, their eyeballs had increased several fold in diameter over the eons, in order to compensate for their nearsightedness....hence the bug-eyed appearance.

It was rumored that their eyes bulged out due to being slumped over in their space ship during the launch sequence. We later learned this was mere fiction, based upon the musings of some sci-fi enthusiasts cum bullet casters.

[felix]

I like it, Mark! If you know Mylar, you know his/her buddy, Chronar. ... felix

[leftiye]

In this instance, you are entering the realm of Fluid Dynamics and the elastic properties of a given medium.

Elasticity is dependent on a wide range of factors, but for the time being, simply consider the bullet's base.....because the time duration of shock wave syne curve is so brief due to the fact the object (bullet) remains motionless for only a couple nanoseconds before it's enertia is overcame and then it begins it's travel down the bore.

You also have the propellant pressures to consider and the resistance of the bore being applied to the projectile.

Clear as mud?"

- [Perfectly clear...... so what? Any idea how long it would in your world take for lead to crush down in length? I guess you're trying to baffle me with....]

Okay, when that cast projectile gets kicked in the ****, it doesn't hang around long enough to have it's head telescoped down it's throat. Like your fanny getting kicked by a size 13 boot, it (the bullet) gives a little (obturates) and then begins to move in the direction in which it was kicked. Like your head....the bullet nose.....doesn't get yanked to the side so hard it snaps your neck.

[You're sure? do we just take this on faith? Once MY head gets accelerated past its strength capabilities there is NO guarantee it will remain on straight or that it will take more than a nanosecond]

One factor, the relative pressures are actually quite low. If the propellant charge was on the order of a full house jacketed load developing in the neighborhood of 60,000 psi....the equation begins to take on a different character....but what really matters is the peak pressure curve and when it occurs during the launch sequence. For example; if the pressure curve was (nearly) instantaneous....like touching off primer cord.....the bullet would probably achieve little or no forward movement before the breech lets go. But it is far less than that....drastically less.

[Now you're putting a limit on pressures. Not fair! All I said was that if the acceleration produced inertial forces greater than the plastic strength limits of the lead, there would be deformation. -NO guarantee of remaining symetrical. I also disagree with your allegation that such pressures which would cause deformation are anywhere near the design limits of a modern gun which can be as high as 120,000 psi.. Deformation begins at anywhere as low as 20,000 psi..]

The bullet base absorbs the released energy of the propellant gases, it gives (obturates) as the resiliency of the alloy will permit/allow and then moves forward. The ass end of the bullet has completed it's task. The next sequence that occurs, is the giant leap forward from the cylinder to the barrel. THIS IS WHERE THE CRASH TAKES PLACE. Contrary to popular myth, the forward momentum of the bullet is not stopped at the rifling origin.....but rather, merely impeded. The bullet has not yet achieved maximum velocity as the powder gases are continuing to expand. The bullet has not reached a speed at which it's nose can be wrenched sideways, slammed into the rifling and then miraculously straighten back out while revolving around the center of it's mass (axis) and then exit the bore.

[a boolit in a vacuum which is accelerated (perhaps by magic, but yet still accelerated) will display an inertia effect between the rear parts of the boolit where the acceleration occurs and the front which tries to remain at rest (unlike your assertions, Newton can be quoted to support this one). If this inertia (Starmetal is right in that the closer to the front tip of the boolit, the less metal there is ahead of the section in question to provide resisting inertia) holding back the foreparts of the boolit is severe enough, the nose parts if unsupported will squash out just like the rear parts do when caught between this inertia and the pressure of the powder gasses.]

If that nose is slumped, the center of the bullet's nucleus is so severely compromised, that upon exiting the barrel.....it would fly in an arc circumscribed by the rifling twist. It would not travel towards the point of aim.....but somewhere to the right.....or the left, if fired from a Colt.

[you forget that the boolit is rotating. It would fly in a spiral. And often does.]

The damage you nose slump supporters see on recovered bullets occurs not from a slumped/bent nose, but due to the untethered flight from cylinder to barrel. Once the bullet engages the rifling, it follows the bore in a straight line until it exits. It does not skid sideways down the bore, rifling the nose...because it is supposedly slumped over to one side.

[Not even if one side of the boolit is softer (therefore weaker) than the other side, or maybe has a void? You ignore characteristics of the rifling patterns on the recovered boolits that could not be caused in the forcing cone. For one thing there are no riflings in the frcing cone, and such deformation if caused by impact with the forcing cone would indicate a revolver that was so out of alignment as to be unshootable.]

For the record......I am not saying you do not recover damaged bullets. I am saying I do not agree with your reasoning and supposed culprit.

Your opinion - which you may feel free to go on for eternity with.

[Jumptrap]

Your opinion - which you may feel free to go on for eternity with.

I'll tell you what, forget my opinion and lets just stick with the Herd Mentality. That will redirect us back to the beginning of this thread:

Bullet noses slump and that's all there is to it.

There, feel better now?

[StarMetal]

I though the bullet got engraved by rifling because it's sized bigger then groove diameter. A bore rider rides the bore (tops of the lands) where is going to slump too? Into the grooves? That's called distortion. There's not much unsupported nose on cast rifle bullets even between bearing band type and bore rider type.

Joe
Yes, the bore ride will expand into the rifling and increase drive length. That is why BPCR's with certain rifling will not shoot a long bore ride. It changes the twist needed for stability.
You fellas are getting there but sit at the desk too much.
Boolit design and shape can control slump at the nose but the wrong boolit will deform enough to ruin accuracy.
I have picked up too many boolits with rifling all the way up one side of the nose with no rifling on the other side to agree with theories figured out while sitting at the desk.
Other boolits with a proper nose design show nice, even rifling marks.
But then you confuse the hell out of guys by saying the bore ride expanding into the grooves is "distortion"! Just what does the word "slump" mean? Did not the nose "slump" back so it expanded to fill the grooves?
If you have rifling on the bore ride, the boolit did indeed SLUMP! [smilie=1:
Hardening the boolit eliminates or reduces it.
Shortening the bore ride and changing the nose also reduces it.
I wonder how the 45-70 Government boolit came about instead of a long, pointy nose? I kind of think they were pretty damned smart back then.
But some of you know how they built the pyramids! :Fire:[/quote]

Well Jim I push a few different calibers of very long nosed bore riders to pretty high velocities, some in very very fast twists, and have been able to recover fired bullets and examine them and find no distortion or slumping into the groove other then the lands marking them as they were just a hair larger then bore diameter. Like I said no obturation signs on the noses except about a 1/16th inch past the leading bearing band. On the larger calibers nothing.

Joe

[uncle joe]

Well JT I don't know about of the so called facts posted in this thread, but I'm glad to see that at least
"YOUR HEAD'S IN THE RIGHT PLACE"
;-]

[runfiverun]

in a rifle i don't think the noses slump either.
a boreriders nose base area may obturate where it meets the driving bands.
maybe this is why i do better at h/v with a very short [or no] boreriding section.
cause if it is moving rearwards or the base is moving forwards it has to be messing up the alloy,or at the least the design.
i doubt it is happening in the bbl though, and is happening in the throat area.

[Jumptrap]

Well JT I don't know about of the so called facts posted in this thread, but I'm glad to see that at least
"YOUR HEAD'S IN THE RIGHT PLACE"
;-]

Uncle Joe,

I am sure several think my head is up my posterior, but that's quite OK. At least I pull mine out once in a while...hehe!

Gotta love ZZ Top......"I keep thinkin' about those nights in Memphis....Lord I thought I was in Heav-en!

Actually, I once knew a girl from Houston and she could almost take me there;).

[felix]

Did you not know that the ZZTop traveled with a trunk full of guns? I met this bunch by accident in HOUSTON at the Southwest Rifle Range, now defunct and turned into a junk yard. The stuff in the trunk consisted of many flavors, and each band member did exhibit confidence in handling their wares. ... felix

[crazy mark]

How about the blonder the female is the goofier she gets. Oops I forgot the question.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Maybe half black Irish, other half black Muslim

[9.3X62AL]

My nose slumps when I fall over face first. Badly.

[SciFiJim]

And my base deforms when it gets bumped up.

[qajaq59]

Yup, all true.

And the aliens are invisible and they move my targets just as I fire.

Otherwise I'd never miss!!!!!

[nonferrous]

Well, it depends on where you get them. If new, they are generally sold by the dozen, complete with lids and rings.

One moonshiner used to advertise his wares as being the finest money could buy and delivered in a free Mason, which of course could later be used by the wife to can her beans, once the elixir was properly disposed of.

I suppose one way or the other, they were never actually free.

Any traveling man would know the answer to this question;).

Sorry for the late response, I have been traveling as a matter of fact. You are right of course, they are rarely free. However, I have found that the further East you travel, the better they are and with very few exceptions, of the highest quality.

[geargnasher]

All the way to the Eastern Star......

Gear

[nonferrous]

Gear,
I concur, I have found that journey to be rewarding as well. What is interesting, is what with the current interest in self defense and home defense, as well as the newly instilled interest in citizens wanting to obtain a permit to carry while they still can. On just about any trip to the range, you will probably find several Matronly ladies working on their shooting skills.