450 Mongo

[peter nap]

I have a BFR in 45/410 and love it. I posted a week or so about moderate accuracy with 45 colt ammunition and I expected it was because of the travel down the long cylinder.

The only suggestion was try longer cases and it seems like a good one.

I have used 444 cases for hot buckshot loads for a year and had no issues at all so I think I'll try to load Mongo style cases.

Fire forming them is no biggie. The new 444 cases will nearly take my 230 gr Lee bullets as is. They just need a touch of expanding and fire forming.

Now load development.
I'm not looking for hot loads. Don't need them here in Black Bear Country. Just better accuracy.

I think the loads for the Ruger/Contender in Speers handbook will be fine and since the case is much larger, pressure should be a good bit lower.

I'm not quite sure about what powder to use in that large a case though.

Suggestions would be appreciated

[dannyabear]

I have used up to 20 grs of 2400 with a 250 cast bullet in my Super comanche; I have backed it down to 18.5 grains though, because this is a cheap pistol ; Your FA should handle anything .
I use a pinch of dacron/polyester fiber, like sold at walmart in the craft dept. for filler to hold powder in place. You are pretty much on your own looking for loads for this combo; someone at alliant finally gave in and told me to try 44 mag data, because in the larger casr, the pressure would be lower but have more velocity bacause of more powder. That make sense?
I currently make 'wads' to hold the powder, out of some kinda poly/strofoam sheet material that is commonly used to wrap packages with; I buy it at work in rolls, look at what fedx uses to package shipment. Just use a 45acp case as a cutter and push them over the powder with a pencil.

BTW I refer to mine as a 45 XLC (xtra long colt)

[peter nap]

I have used up to 20 grs of 2400 with a 250 cast bullet in my Super comanche; I have backed it down to 18.5 grains though, because this is a cheap pistol ; Your FA should handle anything .
I use a pinch of dacron/polyester fiber, like sold at walmart in the craft dept. for filler to hold powder in place. You are pretty much on your own looking for loads for this combo; someone at alliant finally gave in and told me to try 44 mag data, because in the larger casr, the pressure would be lower but have more velocity bacause of more powder. That make sense?
I currently make 'wads' to hold the powder, out of some kinda poly/strofoam sheet material that is commonly used to wrap packages with; I buy it at work in rolls, look at what fedx uses to package shipment. Just use a 45acp case as a cutter and push them over the powder with a pencil.

BTW I refer to mine as a 45 XLC (xtra long colt)

Thanks Danny!
I'm going to have to hunt around and see if anyone has load data for 2400 for the trapdoor 45/70. Speer doesn't list it.

The trapdoor pressure limits are listed as 21000 CUP and cross referencing the 45LC data for Ruger/Contender, the show a range of 20000 to 25000. Since the 45/70 is not too far off size wise, it seemed like a good place to start working up loads.

How is the accuracy in your gun with the XLC?

[dannyabear]

It is considerably better than with 45 colt cartridges; I have since quit fooling with the 45 xlc and just use it for 410/fine shot for snakes; good way to spend a saturday morning on the bayou, snake hunting for water mocasins. I got plenty to do, huh?
I just got intrigued after reading up on the 450 mongo; I later decided to quit experimenting with my cheap pistol. It works fine as a short barreled shotgun, much more accurate and lot better pattern with the 410 choke tube than bro in laws judge.

you might want to check the alliant website for 45-70 load info. I'll look tomorrow in my notes in case there is something I forgot.

[peter nap]

That's what I was hoping, thanks!

I love the 410 too. Shot a couple of quail with it last winter.
This gun is my pride and joy. I carry it anytime I don't have a rifle (except in the burbs, 1911 then)

I have a lot of bears that don't ever cause problems, but I keep a chamber loaded with a LC anyway. I have 6 shot in the first two chambers and buck in the last two. It's pretty well set up to kill anything in Virginia.

The 444/45 will just make it a little more versitle I hope.

[dannyabear]

You do know that the pressure of a 45 colt or 410 is only in the 12,000 - 13,000 range.

[yondering]

You do know that the pressure of a 45 colt or 410 is only in the 12,000 - 13,000 range.

His BFR can easily handle much higher pressure Ruger/Contender loads in 45 Colt.

peter nap, you're probably not too far wrong in interpolating from 45/70 load data, but it would be wise to compare case capacity first. Weigh one of your pieces of brass, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Do the same with a 45/70, and compare the weight of water each case holds. I suspect your cases hold significantly less than a 45/70.

Starting with Ruger/Contender loads in the Speer manual should certainly be fine, BUT do not use the H110 or Win 296 data! The extra capacity of your cases would make that a reduced load, which should not be done with those powders.
I would use 2400 or Unique. Maybe start with 10gr Unique and work up until you get 1,000 or 1,100 fps with a 255gr boolit, and call it good. You could probably go hotter than that with 2400, but I don't know how much?

Just an afterthought, but for this big case, AA1680 might be an excellent powder choice. It's a little slow for 45 Colt, because of the smaller case capacity. You could probably get pretty good load density with this powder; I wouldn't suggest a full case but it would certainly take up more volume than 2400 or Unique. If you can find 45/70 data with this powder, you should be able to work up or down from there, depending on your case capacity.

[wiljen]

Several of us have used 9.3x74R brass blown out straight as the ultimate 45 "Long" Colt in 410/45 Contender barrels. If you can find the brass, it does work well.

[44man]

I believe the problem is not the bullet jump to the forcing cone but the jump from a short case to the throat. The same thing with poor accuracy happens with a .38 special case in a .357. a .44 special case in a .44 mag and a .480 case in a .475.
If you load light loads in the longer brass they will be accurate but not in the short brass.
Then if you use longer brass you have a capacity problem that needs a powder workup.

[peter nap]

I believe the problem is not the bullet jump to the forcing cone but the jump from a short case to the throat. The same thing with poor accuracy happens with a .38 special case in a .357. a .44 special case in a .44 mag and a .480 case in a .475.
If you load light loads in the longer brass they will be accurate but not in the short brass.
Then if you use longer brass you have a capacity problem that needs a powder workup.

I'm not looking for hot loads, I have a 44 if I need more power. This is just to improve the accuracy and to say I did:mrgreen:

I wonder if Trail Boss would work? I bought some for my 45/70 but haven't had the chance to try it yet. That would help with the larger case/

[lostchild0]

I've got a 45/410 h&r survivor, the load I use is 445sm cases and 445 load data. Accuracy is greatly improved, pressure doen't seem to be a problem, ( takes 3-5 loadings to fire form the cases to the chamber ). My gun likes heavy bullets 300gr whith near max listed loads, ( I started way low and worked up ). Hope this helps....lost

[peter nap]

Just checked their site and looks like trail boss is a little hot.

They had some potentials for the trapdoor with low pressure loads. I'm going to check the case volume of the 444 and 45/70, then give Hodgden a call Monday. I may be able to get a load from them that will fill the case at lower pressures.

[peter nap]

I've got a 45/410 h&r survivor, the load I use is 445sm cases and 445 load data. Accuracy is greatly improved, pressure doen't seem to be a problem, ( takes 3-5 loadings to fire form the cases to the chamber ). My gun likes heavy bullets 300gr whith near max listed loads, ( I started way low and worked up ). Hope this helps....lost

I need to get out more. I didn't even know there was a 445[smilie=1:

[peter nap]

His BFR can easily handle much higher pressure Ruger/Contender loads in 45 Colt.

peter nap, you're probably not too far wrong in interpolating from 45/70 load data, but it would be wise to compare case capacity first. Weigh one of your pieces of brass, fill it with water, and weigh it again. Do the same with a 45/70, and compare the weight of water each case holds. I suspect your cases hold significantly less than a 45/70.

Starting with Ruger/Contender loads in the Speer manual should certainly be fine, BUT do not use the H110 or Win 296 data! The extra capacity of your cases would make that a reduced load, which should not be done with those powders.
I would use 2400 or Unique. Maybe start with 10gr Unique and work up until you get 1,000 or 1,100 fps with a 255gr boolit, and call it good. You could probably go hotter than that with 2400, but I don't know how much?

Just an afterthought, but for this big case, AA1680 might be an excellent powder choice. It's a little slow for 45 Colt, because of the smaller case capacity. You could probably get pretty good load density with this powder; I wouldn't suggest a full case but it would certainly take up more volume than 2400 or Unique. If you can find 45/70 data with this powder, you should be able to work up or down from there, depending on your case capacity.

What do you think of H4895 Yonderling?
The pressure curve certainly looks good, at least as a starting place.

[peter nap]

Spoke to IMR today and might as well saved my breath. You'd of thought I was asking directions for a DIY sex change.

I called Speer and as usual, they had some advice. After 15 minutes of discussion, it was suggested trying a very low starting place of 8.5 of 2400 with an over powder wad.

[Jim-CT]

Recently found the problem with accuracy at 50 + yards. It was the shooter.
Put TC 2.5x7 scope on it and initial rounds grouped 3". Not great but with 310 cast over starting 45/70 loads, start cautiously, This was in a 10" Contender Bull barrel, Not an Oct. barrel. Absolutely love it. also use Trail boss same situation,
powder puff loads. great accuracy 2" as a starter at 50 + yds. These are all in annealed, fireformed norma and hornady brass 7 reloads. Time to anneal again.
Best of luck with your usage of any or all 45/410's
Jim