Can I wrap tape around my case necks?

[barrabruce]

Iv'e been thinking...this is why I'm asking.

I know that the target mob have chambers reamed and cases neck turned so they don't have to size when seating bullets.

That got me thinking.
In my 30-30 break open single shot.
With my fired cases I can seat my cast offerings pretty well with out having to size and or expand and such.

My paper patching offerings are too loose and if I size with my lee load all I have to either partiall size and try and flare and open up the case neck to get the pp bullets to seat.
With varying success. Some tight and some loose.

Can one wrap a bit of tape around the case neck up to near the end to well nearlly stop enlargement and leave a nice flare at the end for seating??
Or near the base of the neck so the next bullet will seat in the tight spot and not fall into the case.

It all sounds too good to be true!!!!

Can some -one explain to me the rational obvious pit falls of such a ludicrous idea.

Thanks
Barrabuce:grin:

[docone31]

No.
You are useing a neck sizer that has little control over out of the ordinary loads.
You need a 30-30 die set, a collet die set will work.
If you have a conventional chamber, size your casting to .308, then wrap with two wraps of lined notebook paper. Twist the tail, let dry.
When dry, wipe a little Auto Wax on the patched casting, and size to .309. This will act like a conventional load. Load to ordinary load specs. I use minimum jacketed load data for this.
With a single shot, you can extend the casting out to touch the rifleing, however I have found setting the load to ordinary specs works out well.
Do not crimp. It tears off the paper when firing.
Tape will compress upon firing, and make a mess out of it.

[barrabruce]

Thanks Docone31
Hmm thouth that the tape would do something.
Beside I suppose to get the same size after firing then the casse/bullet tension would cause some sort of pressure spike trying to get the projectile out of the case.

Seems like you are sizing the patch down from around .315
Do you get leading problems from the bullet engraving the rifling??
Or are you using a Gas check as well??
I thought that the bullet shouldn't touch the barrell at all or maybe just a hirs breath at most.
Thanks for the reply
Bruce

[pdawg_shooter]

I patch my bullets so NO lead touches the barrel. I alos have found if the patch is engraved by the rifling when chambering the round I get the best accuracy.

[303Guy]

I have tried seating the patched boolit in a paper cup. It worked OK in the 'test tube' with no undue impressions on the recovered boolit. For a single shot this might be an option but only range testing will tell - which I haven't done.

[docone31]

Both my .303 British, and .30 cals, I size my center core to .308. I am sizeing down from about .315 or so, .318-.319 for .303.
I not only get no leading, my bores shine.
Try a few, and see.

[rayg]

Both my .303 British, and .30 cals, I size my center core to .308. I am sizeing down from about .315 or so, .318-.319 for .303.
I not only get no leading, my bores shine.
Try a few, and see.

Doc, for the 303, when you size the core down to .308 and if your bore mikes out to .314, what would you size the bullet with w/ the paper wrap to? Ray

Barrabuce, you could try furnace tape, the kind used for beagling, that might work for what you were thinking. Ray

[docone31]

Ray, I wrap to .317-.318 with two wraps of notebook paper. I then size down to .314.
Makes a good tight patch.

[yeahbub]

Barrabruce, if I understand correctly, you're trying to reduce the amount of neck expansion the chamber allows to the point where the natural spring-back of the brass would allow you to seat a PP boolit with sufficient friction? If so, you'll be pleased to know that the bench-resters have been doing this for a long time. Their chambers are purpose-cut to allow .001-.0015 expansion for bullet release, thus limiting case expansion to less than the elastic limit of the case neck. You'll have to accurately determine what the chamber's neck dia is. This number minus the neck dia of a loaded round will give you an idea of how much thickening will be needed to arrive at that .001-.0015 allowance for boolit release. Depending on the thickness required, paint might do a serviceable job. Electroplating might be easier to regulate deposition with and be more permanent. For safety's sake, those cases will probably have to be used only in that chamber.

[barrabruce]

Thankyou yeahbub.
Hmm have do some fancy measuring then.

May try a few things and see what I can come up with.
Paint may be the go.

Thanks for that I hadn't gone mad after all. Just creating more painfull work for myself. :)
I think it may be the way to go for me with a batch of "special cases" just for paper patching.
Well worth the experiment for me anyways!!!

Barra

[Nrut]

Barrabruce..
Wrapping the neck of your case with ScotchTape should increase the neck dia. about .004"...I wrap the other end (web area) on new cases so they stay centered in over sized factory chambers until the case is fire formed...
If you do that you'll find more often than not your firing pin strikes the center of the primer...I do this to help alignment of the loaded round with the bore and don't take the tape off until the sizing die starts tearing it up...Really helps when you are making 9.3X62 brass out of 30-06 brass...

Another ScotchTape trick is to wrap a jacketed bullet with one wrap and see if it will fit in a fired unsized case by hand...If it does then that means you can safely get away with using a cast boolit that size instead of just sizing .002" over groove...I try to fit my boolits to the fired case neck first with the hopes that it will fit the throat..All this helps keep your boolit in line with the bore during ignition...In my .35 Whelen I am using a 9.3 bore rider boolit sized .364" (fired case will take .366" Speer jacket bullet seated by hand) ..The throat is .362" and the groove is .358+"...Until I stumbled on using a the above method my groups were crap with that rifle...Be sure to start with manual starting loads as your throat and bore are sizing your boolit down more than the normal groove + .002" method of sizing..

Long way of saying...Instead of trying to control your neck expansion just use a larger boolit and/or thicker paper and don't resize at all...
But what we are doing here is about experimentation anyway, so give the tape on the neck a try....I am thinking it should work...
Just make sure that you have enough room for the neck to expand and release the boolit...
Have fun eh?

[303Guy]

Long way of saying...Instead of trying to control your neck expansion just use a larger boolit and/or thicker paper and don't resize at all...This is what I have been doing. I have seen no signs of increased pressure due to fatter boolits.


I wrap the other end (web area) on new cases so they stay centered in over sized factory chambers until the case is fire formed...I have long thought of doing that! So it works, does it!:drinks:

[barrabruce]

I recently got and 'old 30-30 leeload all set for parts!!! for $15 bucks at a gun shop.
I have re-worked it a bit and make a few bits for it.
It now is set up for doing 303-25 cases minus the resizing.
Iv'e reworked the sizer up on this one cos' it also sized down to .302 with my brass as well as the one I already got.
Figuring I can always use it for the 303-25 brass for depriming / priming and seating anyways!!!
Now I can push in by hand pressue a jacketed bullet in. .308.


I have made a flareing tool/reamer yesterday,that I use now to expand my sized case necks to abou 0.3095" .
This has allowed me to seat my pp patched loads now with out tearing the paper or them being loose and trying to "size them a bit" and I feel like I'm on the right tack as far as neck tension goes.(constant now) They are hard to pull out and they don't wanna fall through into the case.

The die only sizes about 2/3 rds of the neck now cos of the length of the 303 brass which is how I like it anyway.

My cast bullets will just seat in the fired cases with a push fit and I can feel the lube grooves go clunk clunk clunk as I press them in.
It expands the neck a thou or two.
I haven't had any troubles yet!!! and they chamber easily enough.

I may try some tape as I still have 4 new brass cases thats never been fired.
I'll see if I can get them to fireform perfectly straght into the chamber.
I hate new brass when they form crooked.

I might try some thick paper patching to see it that will work on my gun but I have what one would call a chamber that has a deeply cut neck section or freebore that ends in a nice sharp shoulder. Then tapers down to the bore.
With some of my efforts last week i found I had some paper get caught on that shoulder.
They were lubed with alox and I think they were cooking parchment that got cut/torn/hung up there.
No leading but glad I was checking.
If I try a thick wrap I think the patch will get sheered off at that depth there as well.
But I'll wrap a few and see what they do.
I only have to load one at a time!!!!

Thanks for the advice!! much appreciated
Bruce

[barrabruce]

Well my paper patched offerings didn't fair to well on the week-end.
Had troubles with paper sticking to what looked like the start of the rifling but I think it is more of the sharp step in the throught area.
I did seat teh bullets to fit into the lead area contact.
With barrell fouling it got tighter and tighter to chamber the bullets till in the end a case came out and left the bullet insitu. :)
Accuracy bad.
I did have a couple of what appeared like used frangers sticking to the extracted case neck or in the chamber at one point. I think they where the baking paper.
It seems I'm cutting and or striping the patch.
With lined note book I had attached bits to the start of the throat.

I will try some seated to be normal depth with about 20 thou clearance and see if the bullet starting off with some motion performs better than from a standing start.

Will try thinner patching to bore size and some thicker ones.


My sized plain cast lead and lube projo's worked well and a little more consistant. Could hit a clay target at 150 yrds with them.

Didn't do the tape trick yet!! Looking for some thin sticky tape. May try a bit of paint thou. I think I'll wait till I can get some sort of scattering of holes which resemble somthing like a group first.

Reveiwing my wrapping technique angle of taper and try the folded over the base and twisted tails to see if I can get better.

My first attemp worked well!!! But something has gone astray.
If it aint me bullets then the action has streatched a bit and the barrells twisting on the hinge pin with more notable movement at higher pressures.

It does tend to string the groups in a diagonal shift when working up loads and pressures.

I may load up some jacketed stuff with a good load and see if theres has been any change in accuracy. At least it will tell a tale as to whats happening.

I may need to clean every few round to them to work. Or taper the sharp shoulder into a more gentle lead into the throat area somehow.But beyond my capabilities at the moment to do such work unless there it an easy fix but will try everything else first.
If I use some grit on the patches then I'll be opening up the throat and barrell as well. Hmm :(

Barra

[Reverend Recoil]

Try sizing a 32 or 375 Win case in to 30-30. You will have a thicker neck. If it is too thick you will have to neck-turn these cases. Some National Match shooters do the same thing by sizing 358 Win cases to 308 Win.

[barrabruce]

Thanks for the info Reverend. Will it make the case necks longer that way??
Just wondering 'cos me chamber in the 30-30 gives me the irrits. :( If I knwd I'd be wondering down this path of paper 'n head aches I'd have proably bought the same gun anyways! :)

I sort of tapered the sharp shoulder which I believe to be one of my greatest woes to get this to shoot with PP.
I would like to have the neck end tapered straight from the freebore to the start of the rifling but I have not the means or prbably even the skills to do it ...Properly.

I am going to try it out this week end I hope and see if it may help..at least a little to stop the cutting of the patch and binding a bit.

I have got some car finish polish with silicones and cabara wax for well kept cars and put some on a few rounds to see if it helps any.

So what 'yers reckon. Do anything to help you think or an I barking up the wrong tree!!!
The shiney shadow about where the pen tip is is where Ive "taken the edge off" It was vertually a straight step.

Thanks for looking

Barra

[Reverend Recoil]

If you form 375 Win case to 30-30 cases you will have to trim them to the correct length.

[303Guy]

barrabruce, you have made me realize I need to get off my lazy butt and do a chamber 'slug'! I see why you want a longer neck. On an aside, before I started paper patching, I actually wanted a sharp step at the end of the chamber so as to head-space on the neck! I do that with my 22 hornet, even though the step is 45 °. But then I do not neck size and instead, seat the j-word in a paper cup made from paper hand towel. The cases stop growing at 35.72mm - the chamber length. Getting back to your chamber, just maybe the problem you are having is that long gap between case neck and chamber end. Boolit obturation might cause the paper stripping. Have you tried slower powders? I have been told that the 30-30 works well with AR2209, producing low pressure and good accuracy but low velocity - about 1900fps with 180gr bullets. Just a thought.
:drinks:

[303Guy]

Say, barrabruce, have you been following the thread "Need Advice re: Correct Alloy for Paper Patched Bullets"? rhead has this to say -
... up to 2100 plus a little in my 30 30 using paper patched with 35 grains of H4350.

[barrabruce]

Look into it 303guy.
I have a small bit of Ar2209 to try in me 25-303.
May cough up for some AR2208 next time in "town"

I had good results on the week-end with the plain cast bullets goining into1 1/8 " at 100yrds, but loosing acuuarcyat about 2 5/8" aat 150 yrds.
I shot a few Jworkd bullets and they went about 3/4 mostly vertical at the 100.
So gun not the issue.

My PP offerings got groups of down to 2" with some variants at 100yrds.
NO paper hanging up in the throat area..except a small bit on 2 occasions. (wraps I think at fault. So I am on me way to "Navara" with this paper lark.
The bullets were a hitting abit lopsided in various angles.
I will have to procure something a bit more concentric to do anything better than that.

The 375 cases are hard to find and expensive. If I can find someone with a proper equipment I may venture down that route with a small batch.

Once I get a bullet and paper sorted proper then its down to the nitty gritty.

At the moment I'm quite please at my results and it certainly "good" enough for some wasting some money and time to persue!!!!

I don't think I'll use J bullets at all once I got this thing sorted. But the end result on game will be the most deciding factor.

Barra.
Starting to paly with paints and stuff at the moment.
Looking for a mold

[303Guy]

Good to hear! I got some intersting results with plain cast, smooth side, tapered 303 Brit boolits I made. 225grainers.

I am using AR2209 in my 303-25 and it seems to work just fine. It fills the case better and I think gives a little more velocity. I have made a paper patched boolit mold for the 25 which casts up to 121grs. It's adjustable. I love that caliber, the 303-25. Sometimes I haver a hard time deciding whether to take the 303-25 or the No4 303 for a walk in the bush! :mrgreen: (They are both accurate rifles and so sweet shooting!)