strange question

[AZMark]

I had a guy tell me today that a paper patched bullet is left without marks from rifling. Is this true? If so, why?

[docone31]

I have never found that to be true.
Every recovered boolitt I have seen has had rifleing marks, AND, the intersection impression.
That mark really identifies a paper patch. I have also found twisted tail impressions on the base. Where the sprue cut off was slight pitting, where the twisted tail was, was a slight indent.
Hollywood created the markless paper patched projectile.

[Don McDowell]

I had a guy tell me today that a paper patched bullet is left without marks from rifling. Is this true? If so, why?

Nope

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperrecovered.jpg

[Red River Rick]

That guys been watching too much TV!

RR

[runfiverun]

the rifling is impressed through the paper even though there is no contact.
for best results it seems as though some contact is desired.

[303Guy]

Sometimes it's hard to make out the impressions!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-136F.jpg

[pdawg_shooter]

The rifling leaves an impression but no tool marks like you see in unpatched bullets.

[lcclower]

That came from the movie Shooter with Mark Walberg, the best line in the movie was from the same old guy who said paper patches could be used to fake land & groove marks; "Those two gunmen from the Grassy Knoll, why, they were buried west of Terlingua the next day, and I still have the shovel, (geezerly cackle)"

[docone31]

No comment.
There were other major discrepencies in that movie.

[Digital Dan]

FYI, land impressions may link a bullet to a particular manufacturer and caliber but that does not provide anything more that circumstantial evidence. Properly patched bullets do not carry tool marks which are used by CSIs to link a bullet to a particular gun.

[Echo]

Re 'Shooter' - the book was better than the movie, but still had errors.

And I don't remember the name of the book - read it when I was traveling a LOT, and CRS sets in...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

All the pp boolits I recover have rifling marks - if the shank isn't completely obliterated.

If the man in question was meaning that a pp boolit won't leave enough markings to link the boolit to the actual gun it was fired from - I believe that's probable. The rifling marks would only tell the number of lands & grooves and the widths of the lands & grooves. That would be sufficient to tell whether a bullet was fired from a Remington, Browning, or Winchester.

However, also etched in the shank would be the patch marks. If I worked in CSI would see if you could identify the brand and make of paper that made the marks as well as the various patching eccentricities. The angle of the patch edges. The imprint of the tail. Any lube residues. If a search of a suspect's house revealed paper-patch making materials that matched:

Cast bullet alloy
Paper brand & make
Patch template w/ angles matching that on bullet
Patched bullets that matched the patcher's style such as: direction of twist, tails cut, amount of nose exposed, lubed used etc.

...then all those variables should make something pretty uniquely identifiable. Because paper-patched bullets tend to be homemade by the shooter, I wouldn't doubt that there would be lots of variables that would be unique to the shooter/maker. Whereas a Hornady bullet could be shot by thousands of different people. It's just that the unique toolmarks from the individual gun that fired said Hornady can be matched. . . unless something happened to the bore after that bullet was fired. Say maybe it rusted terribly, or was scoured with abrasives.

[montana_charlie]

Of course, those CSI folks would collect every scrap of paper confetti from the patch, and reassemble it back in the lab. Then, they could use the heated super glue mist to bring out the paper patcher's fingerprints.

...unless docone31 was the culprit.

That would start the search for a particular brand of cigarette roller...
CM

[heathydee]

Re 'Shooter' - the book was better than the movie, but still had errors.

And I don't remember the name of the book - read it when I was traveling a LOT, and CRS sets in...

The title of the book is "Point of Impact" by Stephen Hunter , first published in 1993 .

[303Guy]

In the movie, a fired bullet was recovered - intact - which was then patched and fired in a custom rifle made to fit the patched bullet. It would be interesting to see how they used that one bullet to sight in the rifle!:mrgreen: They would have had to fire and recover a whole bunch to do it. Possible, I suppose. I wonder what kind of back-stop was used for the original bullet - it wasn't designed to catch undamaged 50 Browning bullets!:twisted:

[Nrut]

Of course, those CSI folks would collect every scrap of paper confetti from the patch, and reassemble it back in the lab. Then, they could use the heated super glue mist to bring out the paper patcher's fingerprints.

...unless docone31 was the culprit.

That would start the search for a particular brand of cigarette roller...
CM

:holysheepYou know I think you are on to something Charlie...

I have always wondered about docone31...[smilie=1: