Seating a bullet so it stays?

[wonderwolf]

Patched bullet up to .450 but the neck of my cases are about .457 How can I get the bullet to stay firmly in place but not damage the patching or mess up the patch? I'm still using .458" patched bullets but was thinking this last night while looking at molds from RRR.

Also are you guys FL resizing or just neck sizing? or even sizing at all? I've tried not sizing my cases and it seemed to not swing things one way or the other but I only did it for a few rounds. After 2 firings I could see chambering problems not to mention even a worse bullet fit.

[docone31]

With my paper patching, I neck size. I designate the rifles to the cases.
Are you patching to .450, or .458? I am a little lost there.
If your necks are .457, and the final diameter is .458, it is a simple matter of flareing the mouth of the case. Since paper patching simulates jacketeds, it should be ok.
I do not crimp my patched loads, I tension with the die.
With my .303 British, I had to have a die made for the patched loads. I sent in a final diameter casting with patch. They modified my mandrel and final sizeing die. Worked like a charm after that.
If, after deprimeing, and sizeing, you are still short in diameter, I might consider getting your mandrel "adjusted" also.
The neck should tension the patched boolitt. No crimping there. You do not want a big jump in neck tensioning either.

[wonderwolf]

Currently I'm patching to .458 which has resulted in about 1 in 20 lost bullets because of ripped patches. Wanting to try bore sized bullets .450" is my goal for patched bullets after I get a new mold.

[docone31]

I am kinda confused here.
I patch to .314, and load into a .311 neck. I have not torn a patch since I got my dies modified.
.458, is that the size that works in your bore? If so, you will need to get your dies modified. Then it is Duck Soup!
Going from .458 to .450 is a significant jump in sizeing diameter.
I also don't think you are going to like bore sized boolitts.

[pdawg_shooter]

Me too. If your bore is .450 you should size to .451/.4515 and patch to groove diameter + .001/.002.

[powderburnerr]

wonderwolf, if you want to use bore size bullets just get a taper crimp die and size the neck down ,I seat my bullets .2 in the case and they stay just fine and shoot to 1000 yds equally as well ,
just dont c]taper crimp too much . I do it just enough to hold the bullet , and if you use a VLD reamer you can taper crimp first than seat ................Dean

[Don McDowell]

If you're just using the loads for target shooting it may or may not be necessary to have much neck tension, just depends alot on what you use under the bullet for wads. (assuming bp loads here) I full length resize all my cartridges pp or gg loaded.
I often patch to .448 and then just run the loaded round into a 45 colt size die until some resistance is felt. Also have a 45 acp taper crimp die that will put just enough squeeze on to hold the bullets in place.

[leftiye]

Ye're using Black Powder? (that won't work with smokeless - won't bump up enough)

[RMulhern]

wonderwolf

Me Irish intellect tells me....that when you're sizing....you are also running the case up into an expander die and button thereby getting a dimension on the interior of .457"!! DON'T DO THAT!! You can full-length resize your cases...(which brand you're using I don't know) and then put an inside caliper on the upper interior of the case mouth and see what you've got dimension-wise! On Norma .45/110 cases after I FL resize the interior measures .4485" to .4492". I use a Lyman VLD chamfer tool (Here comes Orville again) to cut a steeper angle on the case mouth which is more conducive to assist in starting the patched bullet which measures .4495" and it goes in like a glove and there's no danger of it falling out of the case! Matter of fact it takes a little pressure to get the base seated atop the OPW. You have three basic problems with PP the way I see things: (1) determining whether to size your cases or not and (2) getting correct bullet fit to bore size so that your round will chamber and (3) the way the chambers are cut in modern day rifles! In the first instance if you elect to not size your cases and you want the bullet to fit snuggly into the case mouth....the patched bullet may not chamber because it's too large to slide up into the bore! Your other option is patch up to groove diameter or .458" and then seat the bullet more deeply into the case such that the front of the patch is just touching the lands! From what I've read I think this method is more common with folks that use smokeless powder. And if I had to shoot PP bullets in the latter manner....well...me thinks I'd just rather put a pistol in my ear and end it all!! The best PP shooters I know of shoot nothing but BORE-SIZED PP with BLACKPOWDER and if you've read a good bit on a couple of forums about what some of these guys can do shooting bore-sized PP bullets...then you'll know about which I am speaking! I might also add that due to the way modern day rifles are chambered...these chambers are a far cry from the rifles the old timers used because the chambers back then were cut for PP bullets rather than the 'greasers' that most folks want to shoot today. The chambers were smaller and had a smooth transition from the end of the case mouth to the entrance of the bore....rather than a 45 degree area that is now common with modern rifle chambers! What helps to obtain best performance today with modern rifles is to use Rocky Mountain Brass which has a much thicker wall thickness and this assist in the base of the bullet not being blown out oversize as much before entering the bore as would be encountered if using regular shelf brass! Over the past two years of shooting nothing but PP in my Shiloh .45/110 I have proven to myself that PP bullets are just as accurate if not moreso than any lube-groove bullet and I think what some of these other guys have done with them kinda backs me up on my findings!:drinks::drinks:

[windrider919]

OK.
One more time.
1st - Wonderwolf, what powder are you shooting?
2nd - what cartridge are you loading, ie: straight or shouldered?

If you are shooting BP then you can and should patch to bore, ie:.450 There are about 35 threads here in PP that go over and over and over the differences between BP and smokeless. A properly worded search will find many of them. The KEY thing to remember is that experimentation has shown that they DO require different techniques / dimensions. BP WILL bump up when smokeless does not (much). What depth you seat the bullet TOTALLY depends on chamber throat / lead. Once again there are a bunch of threads about this. But in general, IF you can have the paper covering the ogive of the bullet JUST TOUCHING the rifling you will probably get better accuracy.

Now. I shoot a .458 Winchester Magnum with PP exclusively. Why, because I get accuracy where I don't with J-bullets or GG cast. After a LOT { My loading log shows I fired over 4,000 rounds [yes, 4K!] experimenting with PP and variations, I counted last month for a friend} of experimentation I found that you must size the bullet to that particular rifles chamber. In my case, the standard SAAMI reamer for .458 leaves a .464 throat that is also .390 long before the rifling starts. So in my case even though the groove diameter is .458 I get the best accuracy WITH smokeless with a .454 bullet, as cast then wrapped to .463. The inside diameter of my brass ( Winchester ) as fired is .463 so I just bell it to not tear the patched bullet then taper crimp to remove the bell. Only about .240 is in the case. I do NOT experience excessive pressure with the bullet because the patch and bullet swage down to fit the barrel easily. Note: A j-bullet or GG cast WOULD have high pressure and be dangerous. Recovered bullets mike .451/2 and show the rifling where the paper pressed down. I just get paper dust at the muzzle, not confetti pieces like with BP.

As a separate subject, I also experimented with wads and found that the right wad gives the best accuracy. I use foam wads to fill the chamber empty space and keep the powder back at the primer. And just under the bullet I use a polyethylene( PE ) wad to act as an additional gas check.

Other differences are that with BP you never lube the paper yet with smokeless I found Rooster Lube cut to 1/4 strength tightened my groups 1/2 inch from 1 1/2" to 1".

The proof is in the results. I consistently get less than 1" groups at 100 yards from the bench, sandbagged. And this is NOT with low powered loads. I worked up from 1200 FPS to 2100FPS and found my best accuracy at 1850 /1900. With my 460 grain bullet it is a real shoulder thumper but I can hit a 8" paper plate at 500yards with 5 out of 5 shots. Time after time.

All this applies to straight walled cartridges because bottle necked are slightly different but I have a bolt action 30-30 that I got similar accuracy from after I figured out its slight differences. Like the base of the bullet cannot protude into the case below the neck. And proper tension is critical because most dies undersize for PP.

[wonderwolf]

OK.
One more time.
1st - Wonderwolf, what powder are you shooting?
2nd - what cartridge are you loading, ie: straight or shouldered?



Sorry, I'm shooting BP (still messing with brands) and I'm loading for 45-70, Using RCBS dies but have noticed that a modified die set will make life much easier....just waiting to come across another set to modify is all.

.450 is my bore diameter and I have not tried those sizes yet....wanting to see if I can get BETTER accuracy as a lot of people have reported I wanted to try a bore sized PP bullet.

Its interesting too hear that windrider919 is using PP in a .458WM, Looking at my .458WM and the chamber cast of it, it seems that the taper to the rifling is much more of a smooth transition than in my Sharps. I might have to try some PP in it someday although right now I'm satisfied with my current GG loadings I've worked up to 2000FPS that almost match the older factory ammo I have on hand.

I apologize I guess I assumed that you all had crystal balls and could read my mind....Dad always told me never to assume lol. Thanks for the help so far. You've left me with a few things to ponder.

[Don McDowell]

You can make groove diameter patched bullets shoot, but it takes a good bore wiping technique, and things need to be just right.
Much the same way you can make bullets patched under groove shoot with smokeless powder.
Paper patching is fun, it's old art, but it's no wonder it almost disappeared, when grease groove , and jacketed bullets came along.

[pdawg_shooter]

You can make groove diameter patched bullets shoot, but it takes a good bore wiping technique, and things need to be just right.
Much the same way you can make bullets patched under groove shoot with smokeless powder.
Paper patching is fun, it's old art, but it's no wonder it almost disappeared, when grease groove , and jacketed bullets came along.

The thing is, paper patched bullets out perform non patched every time. By matching your alloy to BHN of your bullets you have a bullet that performs on game as well as those $1.00 each jacketed. Accuracy is just as good, and sometimes better than jacketed.

[Don McDowell]

The thing is, paper patched bullets out perform non patched every time. By matching your alloy to BHN of your bullets you have a bullet that performs on game as well as those $1.00 each jacketed. Accuracy is just as good, and sometimes better than jacketed.

Interesting theory how someever it does not exactly line up with the lifetime of experience I've accumulated, but that's ok. It's stuff like that that makes the world go round.[smilie=w:

[pdawg_shooter]

Well my experience goes back to the early 70s with paper patching. I no longer shoot any lead bullet in a rifle without patching. But hey, maybe near 40 years aint enough!

[Don McDowell]

Apparently 40 years isn't quite enough for you to understand not everybody sees things the same way you do, which is fine. I like messing with paper patch, but as to the "consitantly better" part I ain't seen it that way. Making lead bullet perform on game as well as some of the jacketed bullets? Eh well maybe yes maybe no, depends alot on the cartridge and the velocity at impact, they both kill quite well, but wouldn't give one an edge over the other particularly.

[leftiye]

That's definitely a "so?" If yours don't, that proves that yours don't. If his do, then his do (providing they did and he tells the truth).

[Don McDowell]

That's definitely a "so?" If yours don't, that proves that yours don't. If his do, then his do (providing they did and he tells the truth).

z23 zingo, give that man a cupy doll.