No core seating for me.

[pillardrill]

I make my bullets in 1 pass with a tool I designed and which is so versatile it can reform fired bullets. No core seating and is very cheap to make and requires only a vise. I make .355/357 boolits out of .315" Cu tubing.

1. Cast lead into a section of soft copper tubing. Tubing is automatically annealed.

2. The lead filled tubing is cut using a regular pipe cutter. Mine has an adjustment to get a consistent length (read weight here).

3. A cut bit is placed inside the tool, and tool placed in the vise. The vise presses on the red and blue parts (2+ tons produces no wrinkles) forming the bullet.

4. Bullet nose and butt can be given any shape, including hollow point for the nose and boat tail for the base. The hollow point nose attachment is not shown.

The plunger is a snug fit inside the bore to prevent any material from squeezing between the plunger and the bore.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14958&stc=1&d=1248894940

Awaiting your comments folks :mrgreen:

[docone31]

That makes sense to me.
Many ways to skin a cat.
It looks like it might just work. I had tossed around the concept of a wire jacket, poured through in a mold, then swaged into final shape. The wire would be soldered to the inner core, the drawing in the die would keep it intact.
I paper patch instead.
Less work.

[elk hunter]

PD,

Interesting idea. I'd be a little concerned that unless you somehow closed the base at least a little bit there is the possibility of the pressure pushing the core out leaving the jacket inside the bore. I've never experienced that problem, but have seen it mentioned in print by someone, possibly Smith or Corbin can't remember. I don't know if it is a valid concern or not, but I remember the same thing being said about cutting the nose off military FMJ's to make soft points. I hope it works well for you.

[Red River Rick]

...... there is the possibility of the pressure pushing the core out leaving the jacket inside the bore. I've never experienced that problem, but have seen it mentioned in print by someone, possibly Smith or Corbin can't remember. I don't know if it is a valid concern or not, but I remember the same thing being said about cutting the nose off military FMJ's to make soft points. I hope it works well for you.

Very much a reality! Not a wise practice, you'll never know when it's going to happen..............until it happens. By then, it may be too late. Closing up the bottom of the jacket would be your best bet, but you'll need the dies to accomplish that.

FWIW.

RRR

[JohnM]

I think this is a very good concept, though I think I’d use two steps. Seating the core correctly is one of the most important steps in bullet swaging…

Using a vice I think is brilliant and should work with care.

Just another small point, I've looked around my workshop and believe my vise is the most important/useful tool I have brought.....


John

[shooterg]

OK, now show us some pics of the bullets !

[mac0083]

So you're casting lead directly into the soft tubing and then cutting it into small lengths and then push it into shape using a mold? This sounds incredibly easy. ( so simple, why didn't I think of this before?)

WE REALLY want to see pics of your setup. what do the nose and base of the bullets look like?

[pillardrill]

Hi folks,

Elk hunter - the core cannot leave the jacket since the front end closes onto the core. I have fired hundreds of these types of heads with hot loads and never had a separation in the barrel.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14974&stc=1&d=1248964558

Mac - that is right. As a note you have to heat the tube to cast properly like a regular bullet mold.
The bullet head shape resembles a soft point since as the jacket closes towards the point the lead flows forward. I will post a pic of the hollow point process. Till now I have an ogive point and a spire point.
The base can be flat, concave or boat tailed depending on the plunger used.

Here are some of my firsts :Fire:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14972&stc=1&d=1248964558
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14973&stc=1&d=1248964558

[docone31]

Looks good to me.

[pillardrill]

Extreme hollow point bullet G Type

These heads are formed in one go. Base, point and hollow are formed at once. Hollow is of 1/4" diameter. These heads may present feed problems. To avoid fed problems a plastic Air Soft Ball (either hard or soft) is pressed into the cavity. Expansion occurs after only the first 30mm of sand.

[pillardrill]

The round showed is the before, attached is the after 8-)

A cross is cut in the slug prior to swaging. This weakens the jacket at set points. When the boolit hits the target it peels nicely at these points like an orange:wink:

[MightyThor]

Air soft pellet, brilliant! I knew there must be something useful to do with those damn things. Now If I can just get my wife to sort them out of the vacume.

[BT Sniper]

Good looking slug you recovered. I have also used the airsoft pellets in my bullets but have not fired any yet. I picked up the 6 grain 10mm BBs for my 44s and was able to form them to shape pretty easily. Your's look good. I have not seen the "soft" airpellets but will look into it a bit more. You obviusly must put them in before you squish them. Never mind I saw your attached diagram. Looks like after bullet is formed with HP you send it through again with the BB in a RN point form die. So which airsoft pellets are considered the soft ones?

How do you eject the bullet?

Nice work. Love this sight for everyone's new ideas.

BT

[pillardrill]

Sniper - that post was an excerpt from my notes. A friend of mine gave me a load of paint filled airsoft pellets. I saw a guy on u-tube using airsoft pellets to tip rifle rounds. Some are brittle and will crack if really skwished.

Ejection is pretty simple. Open the vise, insert a piece of tubing and press on the plunger. Bullet and point former are ejected from the die. You may need to eject the bullet from the point former if the point is acute or hollow point former is used, but ejection works the same way for this too.:mrgreen:

[mac0083]

PILLARDRILL, did you make the die and punches yourself, or did you have them made?

[pillardrill]

Mac - I have a small machine shop and therefore I made them myself. The die is very simple to make. I had to make some attempts before I got the dimensions right between heat treatment and final machining and polishing.
The die body is left hard and to prevent the material from cracking I heat shrunk a mild steel tube around it.
I have another plunger design eliminates which any misalignment there might exist between the plunger and die.

[pillardrill]

You might noticed the taper on the inside of the die diagram I posted at the beginning of the thread. This is intended to recover fired bullets which may be a bit mangled. This die set up reforms them apart from making them.:bigsmyl2:

A die just intended to make boolits would be even simpler to make. I just needed a load of bullets for test firing and could not be bothered if they shot straight or not nor if they looked good. Surprisingly recovered and reshaped boolits worked well even if they lost weight every time they were fired. Talk of the immortal boolit.:mrgreen:

I forgot to mention that the plunger is also hardened.

I also spray the slugs with a light teflon based oil before squashing them, but the die works well even without lube. Bullet diameters are consistent.

[mac0083]

Hi Pillar,
I've been wondering about your boolits. Have you shot a bunch of them? If so, do they feed well? Accurate? Any copper fouling in the bore? Thanks

[pillardrill]

Hi Mac,

have you got my message?

Yes I have shot several of them. I even recovered the fired ones and swaged them back into shape and used them again.
They feed well with no problems, if the shape of the nose is interfering with the feeding just replace the die nose former. If you are referring to the hollow points I have had no problems even without the airsoft pellets in the hollow points. I just fit them to be sure, thus eliminating any possibility of feed problems and to improve the aerodynamics of the point.
I found them reasonably accurate even if so far I have only used them for gun test fires.
The boolits I have used so far have a larger bearing area than the regular 9mm and have left no discernible copper fouling in the bore. I have even fired .358" through a regular 9mm barrel with no problems.
There should be no reason why the boolit should be off center even If I have to section one to check. There are definitely no voids since the lead inside the copper tube is compressed. If the nose or tail are off center it is only due to to a poorly manufactured nose and plunger. I have run bollits on the lathe with a dial gauge and both nose and base were fine. The base is perpendicular to the boolit's side. This may be present if not enough pressure is applied.

Bottom line is I am happy with the result.

[mac0083]

Sorry Pillar, I didn't know you sent me a message, I just read it now! Thank you. I'll send you a message soon.

[mac0083]

Pillar, I sent you another message.

Hey, all you guys that work in a machine shop, How difficult is it for a total novice that is at least handy to make a set of dies like Pillar did? What is involved, what books do I need to read? Thanks!

[pillardrill]

Mac, your last message was on the tooling required, did you get my reply?

[mac0083]

No, the last PM i got from you was talking about the steel core and going through the concrete wall, on 8/13/09

[pillardrill]

There must be something quirky with the private messages, check if you got a reply on the tooling now.

[Jumptrap]

Mac, your last message was on the tooling required, did you get my reply?

How about sharing this information with all of us. I want to try to make a set myself. I have a lathe and an old mill......would have to outshop the heat treatment unless it's a simple heat it with a torch to caseharden (Kasenit) or quench/air cool.

This machining hobby is new to me......so how do you form the internal dimensions of the die....the bullet shape in other words.....and then polish the insides to a micro finish?

Looks to be a fun and interesting project.

[pillardrill]

Hi Jumptrap,

I made a set in .355"

For the basic die:

First drill through with an 8.8mm drill.

Then bore (not drill) one end to 1/2" to take the nose former.

I casehardened the nose former, whilst I hardened the die and plunger (made of mild steel) by heating to cherry red for 1hr per inch of steel then quenching in sodium hydroxide solution.
I wear a raincoat, gloves and a military gas mask cos it's nasty stuff.

Ream with 9mm reamer. Note that the die blank will expand after quenching. So the reamer will only take off a gnat's hair.

Polish with grit paper to obtain a nice finish. Beware not to exceed .355"

Nose former is cut from a 1/2" bar, drilled part way and a boolit nose point made with a d bit.
I caseharden the nose former.

To avoid cracking (and if this step is not followed, crack it will) then shrink fit a piece of tubing around the die.

The plunger is made out of a 9mm rod and hardened as per the die. The plunger must be a push fit into the die hole otherwise the jacket material will flow into any gap. There is a trick to avoid this but it will wear the die out and making the boolits is more laborious.

How about that, if you need any more info just ask.

[303Guy]

pillardrill, I love your innovative thinking! I'm into the paper patching thing but am interested doing a final swage of the prime casting, including adding a hollow point. Now with your concept, I think I can do it - including the plastic ball! :drinks:

Ooooh.... ! I've jast had another idea! I'll go work on it and get back to you folks if it works. [smilie=1:

[1874Sharps]

Pillardrill,

Way cool! Innovative stuff like this keeps me coming back for more.

[pillardrill]

Thanks for your comments folks, I agree this is a good place to get new ideas.

303 - can't wait to hear of your new idea and glad I have been of assistance.

[303Guy]

303 - can't wait to hear of your new ideaHee hee! First off you got me thinking outside the box - I went and looked at what I had and made some new parts to come up with a two-diameter sizer then to a two-diameter swage die!

The top one is swaged.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SwagedTwo-Diameter245gr.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/NewTwo-DiameterBoolit145gr.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-232F.jpg

The next idea is still to come! (If it works).

[pillardrill]

303,

once I tried my hand at paper patching as an experiment. I swaged the boolit then rolled it between a hard surface and a rough file. This produced a sort of knurling. The paper patch seemed to stick better to the bullet. Maybe you have heard of this procedure.

[303Guy]

Yes, I have tried that but not range tested. I disassembled one yesterday and found the paper sticks to the casting maybe a little too much. Anyway, I am contemplating trying it again with my new boolit design, being a bore-rider, the rifling does not impress into the casting so the knurling may be needed to grip the boolit better.

Well, you have started me down a whole new avenue of fun! Take a look.

Swaged hollow point with opening partially closed. (Ejector punch needs work - it leaves a ring on the ogive which shows up worse in the pic).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-243F.jpg

This one is a re-formed fired boolit. Note how even the gas-check is reformed!
If you look carefully you can make out the transition between base shank and nose shank diameters.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-248F.jpg

Forming the hollow point - before and after.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-249F.jpg

I have long been interested in the idea of forming jackets using copper tubing. I just did not know it would actually work nor or how to do it. But right now I am enjoying experimenting with paper patching and the swaging aspect has opened up new prospects. What I like about paper is the polishing effect on the bore! Making bullets per sé opens up the possibility of custom fitting bullets to better suite the rifle. Swaging makes that so much more versatile.

So much fun to be had! Thanks for the inspiration, pillardrill :drinks:

[pillardrill]

Nice looking boolits. The noses of my swaged boolits also show rings on them, cos I didn't polish the nose former properly. It was an experiment and it worked and I guess I didn't fancy making a new one.

I tried the paper patching to see if there would be rifling marks impressed on the core. Unfortunately I had a friend in forensics who could check if there were marks left on the core which he could compare with a normal boolit, but i am no longer in contact with him.

[pillardrill]

303,

it's strange that the rifling marks don't show on the gas check of the reformed fired boolit, or you replaced it.

I reform my fired boolits but you can still make out the marks.

[303Guy]

... it's strange that the rifling marks don't show on the gas check of the reformed fired boolit, ...Hee hee! You noticed that. Those are the same gas checks. I was pretty surprized myself!

If you look real careful you can make out little lines where the rifling engraving was.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-248F.jpg

This is an attempt to zoom in a little.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-253F.jpg

Now the marks are visible. It's actually amazing how well the gas checks reform! I would never have thought it.

[pillardrill]

303,

it is the same for me. They are only "shadows" and you cannot measure them, making them perfectly reusable.
I guess you would have a hell of a time getting a gas check off a fired bullet. Talk of marriage in a barrel :-)

[303Guy]

pillardrill,

My gas checks are cast in situ - I use them as the base plug on my nose pour molds. (I have to flare them a bit as I'm using 30cal checks to make oversize 303 boolits. My new mold just sits on a plate so I'm likely to stay that route if those boolits shoot straight - it's tricky fitting a gas check in a hot mold! :mrgreen:)

Say, you know, I find it not exactly easy to make these small internal things like sizer dies and ejector punches. My two-diameter die was a mission to make and in the end the transition between the two diameters is wrong - I wanted it to be a lot more gradual to suite the leade angle. Oh well, I'll use it as is then one day I'll try make a new one - a challenge to look forward to. It's all fun! :mrgreen:

[Caveape]

Hey Pillar!

Love the ingenuity! NICE DIY!

Anytime you can cut out unneeded steps in a process OR the middle man for that matter, and still have a great result, I'm all for it.

If a RockChucker would take the pressure, (and I know there are those of us out there who would know) would the operation go faster if the dies were made to work on one?

Think about it and let me know.

Caveape

[pillardrill]

I think the RockChucker can stand the force, but I am unsure if it is able to generate enough force. I have never used such presses always a screw or hydraulic press.
When I use a vise/hydraulic press the steps are as follows:

- refit nose former to die (by hand takes only a few seconds and no effort involved)
- remove plunger from die (just pull it out by hand)
- drop in a fresh slug in die
- replace plunger into die
- open vise and place loaded die in between jaws
- close vise and apply that extra force to ensure that slug has fully expanded into die
- open vise by about 1 inch
- place a piece of tubing on the side of the nose former (refer to previous posts on how to eject formed boolit)
- close vise so that plunger ejects boolit and nose former from die.
- start again

Basically the only innovative things in my setup is that it eliminates the following steps:

- forming the core
- forming/buying the jacket
- seating the core

the other innovative step is it eliminates the need of having something like the RockChucker.

I think you could fit a piece of annealed copper tubing filled with lead and try to form it into one of your dies. I do not guarantee that it would stand to the pressure if ever you can get it to produce the necessary force. I have cracked a couple of my dies when experimenting, they fell in my quest for knowledge :-)

[pillardrill]

303,

I have an old Lithgow Mark III and wanted to shoot it for a few times just for the heck of it. It was FTRd with matching numbers.

All I had was .308"s which should have been fine, but the ten other voices in my head wanted me to make a few boolits in .311" so I designed a die that would squash a boat tailed 308 and form it into a flat based .311".

Sparing you the calvary of re priming the fired .303 brass and the making of the resizing die:violin:

Well it worked and grouped nicely.[smilie=w:

The old warhorse is better left on the wall but it felt nice shooting a piece of history.

[303Guy]

Wow! Thanks for that, pillardrill. How do you make the 'nose punch' so it doesn't leave a step? I'm getting my boolit noses to blend in in a separate operation.

I want to look into your copper tube bullet swaging. Patching and casting for a 22 is like micro-surgery! I am using my regular loading press for the 'swaging' I am doing. I'll need a lot more grunt for proper swaging. The 25 is a possible candidate too, if the patched boolits don't perform.

[pillardrill]

The nose punch was tricky to make and induced a lot of sleep loss until I had the proverbial brain fart. I simply placed a 308 bullet in the die (adequately centered) and cast a hard lead alloy on the side of the point. Remember I only needed to squish a 308 slug to 311 and for a few boolits. Well it worked.
I have never tried swaging smaller than 9mm but I guess it will be very difficult to form anything other than round nosed boolits. Still worth a try.

[303Guy]

Brilliant!:drinks:

I do believe that swaging a bullet up has a little 'trick up it's sleave' so to speak. The spring-back of the copper is greater than the lead core, leaving the jacket nice and tight! That should be good for accuracy.

Have you put your mind to swaging 22 cals using 22LR cases? [smilie=1:

I have actually made a push through die. I haven't gone any further but I still have the idea on back burner. I was thinking of taking the trouble to solder the formed jackets full - a bit expensive but still cheaper than store-bought and still the satisfaction of having made them myself! Not sure how do-able though.

Another idea you have given me - a swage die without any push out. Just strongly tapered to the rear so the swaging will just drop out, then pass the swaging through a push through die. For lead swagings, one could use the blead off hole on the boolit tip to dislodge the swaging if needs be.

[pillardrill]

303,

glad to have been of help.

I have never swaged .22 cases. Once on this site I saw people swaging fired cases filled with lead. As an experiment I filled a few .32 ACP cases with lead and then mashed them in my die to become .355" bullets. They worked well, you can see one with the other bullets I made.

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

Pistol cases are kinda scarce in my parts. 22LR cases are plentiful. Well, I started making my 22LR case swage die. It is not finished yet, requiring a fair amount more lapping to get the 'binding' out. The swaging does indeed dislodge through the 'blead off' hole. Here is my first swaging. Not great but it is the first one from an un-finished die. The principle works at least.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-257F.jpg

[pillardrill]

well done looks good. I guess you could make it hollow point too to make the best of the flat tip.

[303Guy]

Well, actually, ummm .... it was supposed to have a soft point but that bit got damaged in punching the bullet out the mold.:sad:

It's flipping not easy making a swaging die that small!:mrgreen:

[pillardrill]

303,

it is never easy working in miniatures. I saw your 22 bullets and they look great.

You said that you resize them in the same die, why is it so?

In my die the slug goes in and comes out a bullet already sized. I check them for consistency and they never vary.

Do you place your 22 jackets in a boolit mold to fill them with lead?

I had that type of set up to fill empty bullet jackets or empty .32 acp cases. Pour the lead through the sprue plate and then cut the excess off. The weights were pretty even.

You should try the copper tube filled with lead thingy. I have some small diameter tubing but maybe its too big for .22, could be good for the 303".

Regards.

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

pillardrill,

I have a push through sizer I made previously. I use it to form the 22LR case into a jacket. I tried using a sprue plate thingy I made for casting into the formed jacket. That works great. The sprue just twists off. I then swage that in my die which is a closed die. It tapers forward which allows the swaging to drop out with a nudge through the bleed-off hole. (That's the theory anyway). Final sizing then gets done with the push through die. That way I get around the difficulty of making a decent nose punch! (Not to mention getting the swage die perfectly dimensioned.:mrgreen: I'm still very early days in this die making thing!)

[303Guy]

pillardrill,

You've got me thinking some more - copper tube swaged 303 Brit bullets! I have this two-groove 303 Brit with fust damage in the bore. It does not like paper patched or plain cast boolits as the bearing surface of the rifling lands is just too small to not wear into the boolit. But that is my go-to bush hunting rifle. So, copper tube swaged bullets!

The other idea I mentioned at the beginning of this thread was to swage a nose hollow, fit a plastic ball then crimp the rim to hold the ball. The ball only needs to sit just past its 'equator' for the crimp to hold. I'm not going to persue this idea just yet as I ended up swaging a partially enclosed hollow point instead which I rather like.

[pillardrill]

303,

could you post a drawing of your setup kinda like I did cos a pic is worth a thousand words.

However I think I have understood what you are doing. I guess the bleed hole is at one end of the die not on a side. I would guess that that angle of taper would be self holding, but with lube maybe there is not much grab.

I guess you are limited in the powder charge you can use to drive a lead bullet through your 2 groove 303 cos it will not bear as it should.

Regards
Pillardrill

[303Guy]

I would guess that that angle of taper would be self holding,It is. The nose gest damaged on ejection. I'll have to work on that. Maybe swage the bullet in two stages or accept a blunter nose. The die works fine for lead swaging.

(You can see I didn't have a decent cutting tool when I made this - that's why I didn't post a pic of it before! I'll get one next week when I've earned a bit more money).[smilie=1:

Swaging Die
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-275F.jpg

Blead-off hole on Swaging Die
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-276F.jpg

Case Forming/Bullet Sizer Die
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-277F.jpg


Just for fun :-

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-278F.jpg

This curiosity is a neck sizer/over powder wad seater die I made a while ago when I had access to a better lathe. It compresses the powder just ahead of the seating so that the wad can't be pushed out by the compressed powder. It worked but I didn't adopt that method.

[pillardrill]

303,

my guess was correct then the bleed hole is at one end of the die. I had a similar problem in a die that was designed to put boat tails onto pistol bullets. I read that a boat tail is more useful on a slower moving bullet, go figure. The bullets would sometimes stick and the ejector rod would form a nice hollow point :-)

If you have access to a lathe try to make a die like mine which has no ejection issues. Fill the jackets in a mold with a sprue cutter.

If you are interested I can tell you how to make the nose former since your bullets are sharply tapered the bullets may stick into it and you need to eject it.

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

If you have access to a lathe try to make a die like mine which has no ejection issues. Fill the jackets in a mold with a sprue cutter.
I do have a small lathe and I am filling the jacket through a sprue cutter.:lovebooli

It's fun figuring a way then finding others do it that way too!:smile:
I actually wanted to have a bleed hole so I could control the bullet weight.

I want to make a die set along the lines of yours for my two-groove. I'm trying to figure out how to fit a bleed hole into a nose punch. Should be easy on a bigger bullet.

I also want to build a swage press. I should start there so my dies will be taylored to it.

I too have been ending up with hollow points from the ejector rod! I turned that into my method of swaging hollow points.:mrgreen:

Thanks again for you help and inspiration. :drinks:

(I love your idea of casting the core into the copper tube - that's how I want to do it).

[pillardrill]

303,

I cut the copper filled tube to size with a "special" tubing cutter which should keep the weight even. I have to check on its consistency, if not I will make a better one :-)

If you have a core mold or cut the cores from lead wire the variations in the internal dimensions of the mold and the cutting of the wire could make core weight inconsistent unless the core is sized. If you have same head stamped cases you should have no problem casting lead directly into the cases without worrying about the bleed hole.

In my setup I guess it would be necessary to measure the depth the plunger has been fed. A bleed hole needs to be fitted at the very tip of the bullet. It should have a form of shear to take of the extra lead. However come to think of it you will only have boolits of equal length not equal weight since only the lead would flow out and not the copper jacket. Also a nose former made in this way may not take the pressure.

I guess its better to start with equal weight boolit blanks.

Regards

Pillardrill

[pillardrill]

I cut a few slugs to check the weight variation. The length variation was .1mm in between slugs. Weight variation varied between a grain to 1.5 grains. I believe that with a more solid setup and not a hand held one the variations would be less. Also the cutter's blade doesn't go all the way to the center of the core and the pip left on each end may add to difference between one core and another.:lovebooli

[303Guy]

Thanks, pillardrill. Agreed. With my latest 22LR swage die set-up, there is no bleed hole. Initially, I did not realise I could cast the core directly into the jacket via a sprue cutter. My plan now is to have a set up to allow me to cast a row of then on a multiple prue cutter plate then just twist the blanks off. This fills the jacket flat with its mouth.

Have a look over on my 22 LR thread. I'll be adding my latest pics.

[pillardrill]

303,

that's the concept. The weight variation should be negligible. The remnants at the point were the cores are twisted off may add to the variation however you can still trim them with a knife, but that is going beyond maniacal.

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

pillardrill

So far the cast cores have cut off with no sprue remnants at all. Just a shiny spot where it was. I need to look into that to see what makes it twist off so flat! Small hole? Shape of sprue? Both?

[pillardrill]

303,

maybe its the shape of the sprue, since the sprue hole was probably drilled the shape would be conical and it would break at its weakest place.

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

Actually, Pillardrill, the sprue cutter has more of a parabolic shape. That gives it quite a sharp cutting edge.

You know, if I had the means to create those 'drawings' that you do I might be able to run some ideas past you. :roll: What software do you use for creating them?

So far, this is the best I can do;
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/303-25BOOLITMOLD.jpg
It's a boolit mold for my 303-25. (Being of British influence, we name our wildcat cartridges back-wards. You would call it a 25-303. Wonderful cartridge by the way! Loaded with 85 gr Noslers, it pole-axes a feral goat and never before have I seen a turkey just drop down, close its eys and not twitch! Even goats that normally kick around for a few minutes do not after being pole-axed! There is much to learn about terminal and any other ballistics!)

[pillardrill]

303,

I use Paint to make the sketches, quite easy to use once you get the hang of it.

Is it the mold for the paper patched Boolits?

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, Pillardrill. Yes, that's for my 303-25. I have made that mod and it works but the nose shape isn't what I want. I'll make a sizer die for it finish the shaping and add a hollow point.

I don't knurl mine. Does it make much difference? Yesterday when I loaded my one and only 25 PP boolit, the core slipped in the patch. I fired it anyway and I think I hit my turkey. (It died soon after firing).

[pillardrill]

303,

did you check for an entry wound :-)

well knurling didn't seem to make much difference apart from bonding the paper to the bullet a bit better. The paper patch really comes out nice and shinny after sizing though.

Regards

Pillardrill

[303Guy]

Ummm... well .... actually ... you see .... :mrgreen:

The turkey I shot at had been wounded by a 22 rimfire. (I would not otherwise have chanced an unkown POI on a living creature). I should have mentioned that before - it makes me look like I shoot at things!

The turkey did not look fatally wounded and I have known turkeys to kick and twich for ages. This one was walking with one wing hanging a bit low. It then died within a minute or two after my shot, so ... I probably hit it. It had two sets of holes in it, one with more stuff coming out. I have rechecked the loading and inspected the fired primer and it was a below starting load and a fairly tough alloy boolit.

I think knurling may be a very good idea if the patched boolit is to be sized!

I had a go with 'Paint'. Here is my ideal 303 Brit boolit profile.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/untitled.jpg
I left out the actual dimensions as this was a first attempt. The vertical lines are points of dimension change.

I believe that this profile is as close to ideal as can be. The boolit (patched or otherwise) closely fits the throat. It engages the rifling along the full leade as it begins it's acceleration on firing. That's what the centre section taper is for. It's easier to find the right shape than to actually make it! A fired boolit shows no rifling impressions on the nose riding section but the patch does. That can't be bad.

[pillardrill]

303,

looking good. Paint is useful in making sketches which you can save on a computer and actually find when needed instead of looking through a mountain of drawings.

I made a die for a 32"acp just as an experiment. The boolit is round nosed. I thought it would require less force to form it. I guessed wrong, it's harder than a 9mm to make. Either the tubing is thicker. I didn't harden the plunger which was made of mild steel. It bent and actually expanded. I had better luck with a hardened one.

The little critters look good, ready when I need to load for a 32"acp which is never :-)

Regards

Pillardrill

[pillardrill]

After a short break, during which I was making a grinding rest for my workshop [smilie=s:, I finally got around to section bullets produced from lead filled copper tube.

I had also made a 7.65mm version but discovered that the pressure required to swage a 1/4" lead filled copper tube to form a bullet in this caliber was around 3 times that required to form a 9mm one.:veryconfu

The reason became apparent when viewing the sectioned bullets:shock:. The process expands the lead filled copper tube but also shortens it. The resulting copper jacket is much thicker than the copper tube which it was formed from. In the 9mm version, where an 8mm copper tube is used, the jacket is slightly thinner.

Also for those doubting Thomases the jacket thickness is uniform in both calibers.:razz:

[pillardrill]

Well experimentation is a hit and miss thing if you excuse the pun :-(

This was my attempt to pre-cut the lead filled copper tubes before swaging. With the aim of having an accurately sliced blank instead of using a hacksaw to have a predicable expansion in hollow point bullets. This method would have be also less time consuming.

I had an inkling of what could go wrong but decided to try anyway.

Well the blades didn't break, but the blank got stuck on the blades and the ejector only pushed out the lead core. :groner:

I have some ideas including using a steel plate which will push on the whole face of the blank instead of only on the lead core.

But that is another experiment ;)

[pillardrill]

Well the simplest solution might be staring us in the face. After managing to get the jammed blank out of the tool I had just made and going through my french repertoire I decided to take the tool apart and remove the 6 blades I had welded in place. Instead of a piston I used an adjustable stop so that blanks can be split to different lengths if need be. I then took an old kitchen knife, place a blank in the tool and used the 6 slots as guides for the blade. Just give the blade a couple of whacks with a mallet and Bob's your uncle. :mrgreen:

I then placed the blank in my die, swaged a hollow point and fitted an airsoft pellet.

Loaded it onto a weak powder charge and fired it into some loose sand. :Fire:

You can see the results for yourself. [smilie=w:

[303Guy]

Waaay Cool, pillardrill!

So, if the ejector punch were to be slotted to fit over the blades ..... ?

I'm thinking along the lines of a harder alloy PP core fore higher velocity and your principle of splitting the nose would solve the expansion problem as in a varmint boolit. Mmmm.....

[pillardrill]

That was my original thought. But I just went ahead with a simpler solution.

Cutting with a knife would avoid bullet imbalance, since you are not removing metal like when you use a hacksaw. The cut metal will then be brought together during swaging. Ready to open up upon striking.

[Outdoors]

Great thread, fellas.
Would it be possible to make something like this work on an arbor press?
I'd love to get something like this to reform my reject cast boolits, but don't have the tooling myself.
Pat

[pillardrill]

Outdoors,

I guess so, some arbor presses are in the 2 ton region, same as a vise so you should be good to go if you have one. You are not swaging lead filled copper tubing but just lead.

Pillardrill

[hcpookie]

You could simplify your jacket cutting by starting with an allen wrench that just barely fit into the jacket, then turn the end down to fit in a die holder. If the end is chamfered or tapered it will create a 6-point star with petals that are thinnest toward the tip. I haven't tried this yet, but I plan to for my .45 bullets ;) You could probably make the hollow point forming die to use an allen wrench and get the same results while eliminating the extra step.

[pillardrill]

I think I understand your idea. The green bit in the nose forming part of the die would be made from an allen wrench. This would score the inside of the jacket at the tip. It would certainly speed up production.
I think I have seen commercial bullets which have a similar shaped hollow point.

The score marks would not be as radical as the way I segmented the bullet but it is worth a try.

You could also score the inside of the copper tubing (minus lead) and then cast the cores prior to swaging, but that would be increasing the work load.

I have made a few bullets with the front part of the core segmented and formed into a normal round nose without a hollow. Just to see if the hollow point could be avoided. Just have to try them.

I will sacrifice an allen wrench on the altar of knowledge and see how it goes :mrgreen:

Good shooting.

[Outdoors]

Not to hijack the thread,
but does anyone know someone who might be able to make a die like these for those of us who lack the tooling? Seems like a fairly straight-forward job, if you have a lathe and/or mill.

Feel free to pm me - I don't want to redirect this thread from the technical issues.

Pat

[pillardrill]

Outdoors,

I am willing to share information but I have enough stuff on my hands to start making stuff for others.

Regards.

Pillardrill

[pillardrill]

attached are pics of 2 bullets I found whilst surfing the net. One has a hexagonaly shaped hollow point even if it is clear that the jacket has been cut.

The second bullet has clearly been cut before being shaped since the cut jacket folds over each other like the petals of a rose. (poetic isn't it)

The jacket has not been weakened but pre-cut in both cases.

[smilie=s:

[pillardrill]

I tried to weaken a piece of lead filled copper tubing by slicing the first 4mm and then swaging it to form a bullet, as shown in previous posts.
I wanted to avoid to putting a hollow point and plugging it with a plastic airsoft ball to help in feeding. This would eliminate manufacturing steps and the risk of having those little plastic tips crowding the bottom of a magazine should they come off.

I swaged the copper tubing into a normal round nosed bullet and fired it into soft sand. A bullet made from the same tube but minus the slicing was also fired. The normal bullet showed no expansion whilst the one with the segmented nose opened up as you can see.

I made another nose former with a very small shallow hollow point which should not interfere with feeding.

[smilie=s:

[pillardrill]

oops forgot the pics of the segmented round nose bullet minus hollow point (A thousand apologies for the quality)

[Outdoors]

Thanks Pillardrill.
I may have a go with a drill press and some standard drill rod to see what I can do.

Pat

[Outdoors]

Quick technical question.
Is the case hardening you did better than a full HT on the die body? Seems that leaving the body soft would ber better for dealing with pressure, but the case hardening would give some wear resistance.

Pat

[pillardrill]

In my humble opinion it is better to heat treat the whole die. Case hardening is not a cheap alternative. It has its applications but is not a substitute.

Today I was gauging some 20 lead bullets which I had swaged in a die I made of some soft steel. The pressure involved was much less than forming a piece of lead filled copper tubing. So I though that kind of material would have been enough. Well after only some 20 bullets the die internal diameter had expanded by 10 thousands of an inch making it worth less.

I simply harden the die and don't temper it. I check for warpage and if necessary I heat shrink a piece of steel tubing around the die so it won't crack.

Case hardening is good for putting wear resistance on something that is soft. Sometimes finding that piece of 4140 can be a bit of a bitch so one can be tempted to caseharden a piece of CRS. It could work for a while if it is made thick enough.

In my case when I can't find that piece of 4140 I quench in sodium hydroxide solution (with the appropriate precautions taken of course) It gets it hard but beware of the dimensional changes.

Just my two cents worth.

[OneShotNeeded]

WOW!!! I just posted something similar to what you have here trying to find an easier and cheaper way of accomplishing the same thing. Alot of knowledge and knowhow here. Although I do have somethiong that you may have already considered. To get the crosscuts needed on the tip couldn't you come up with a design similar to say a shotgun presses crimper? I know when you run the shell into that one stage it tapers and folds the plastic. Couldn't something similar be adapted and work? Just a thought.

[pillardrill]

Your thought is correct, some manufacturer of our favourite toys makes such a tool. I found it very difficult to make sans cnc and to tell you the truth I haven't put much thought on how to make one. You gave me an idea however, since I could turn down the shotgun tool to the diameter I need.

The problem with copper tubing is that it is very thick compared to your normal jacket so it will not be thoroughly cut with this type of tool to reliably segment upon impact.

Attached is an excerpt from info provided by this manufacturer (I think it's Corbin :?:)

Thanks for your input. :lovebooli

[OneShotNeeded]

actually I've been giving it a little thought. Theoretically you could either use a dremel or even a chainsaw sharpening wheel. Something that would give you the convex type shape. If you were to grind it at an angle and cut it like a pie then the center would have no cutters. Only the outside edges would have ridges. I'll try and post a pic... might work.

[Outdoors]

Thanks PD. Just what I was thinking.

Pat

[BT Sniper]

I had some luck with a notched jacket design as well. I'll see if I can get some pics. Basicly used a number 8 steel bolt that had 6 cross marks on the bolt face. Turned it down to needed diameter and with a dremmel tool cut off wheel concaved the face and cut the 6 teeth using the left over cross marks as a guide. It worked very well and I am trying to improve the design as we speek.

Now just have to find the pics.

Exellent work on the tread here guys.

Here is a link to the thread. To bad I deleted the pics. I'll find them.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46117

BT Sniper

[BT Sniper]

Now lets see if I can remember how to post the pics. Sad thing is that I got this punch right on the first try and then tried to improve it and screwed it up. Now I have to redo it.

Sorry the pics are so large.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/boltandpunch.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/punch.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/newbullet2.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/mushroom.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/DSCF9495.jpg

I haven't been able to make a bullet that looks as good as that one on the far right since I jacked up the punch but with the pics I would think we should be able to copy the design again.

Keep up the good work. I know it is kind of against the whole Idea of this thread but i would like to figure out a way to seat the core and score the jacket at teh same time.

BT

[BT Sniper]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17515&d=1259599751

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/DSCF9495.jpg

Looks pretty similar doesn't it. I have seen those bullets for sale in the catalogs. Don't recall the brand but results are easily copied from the looks of it. Now if I can just redo my notch punch.

BT

[pillardrill]

BT

now I remember your posts. I guess a little file work would get it done. I will give it a try since it would reduce steps even if copper tubing is thicker than a cartridge case.

I have a question did you swage the hollow point after using the punch?

I had made a combination tool that weakened the jacket and made a hollow punch, but the hollow was too big and the bullets didn't look professional :-)

[303Guy]

About case hardening.
It's a process whereby a softer steel is infused with carbon by a process which involves 'soaking' the material in a high carbon atmosphere at elevated temperatures for some considerable time. This is followed by a heat treatment process.

One also gets 'case hardening' steels which require an appropriate heat treatment.

So case hardening would not be a "cheap alternative".

Nowdays, nitriding is the process used. Far less complex and virtually any steel can be nitrided. A hard alloy steel can be made diamond hard on the surface and alloys can be chosen that retain core strength with high surface hardness, i.e. not brittle. Gears for example.

[BT Sniper]

Used the dremmel primarily for shaping the teeth and a file just to touch up the finished edge. I seated the core about .1 deep in the case then notched the top of the jacket with the punch then swaged in final die. I probably went into more detail in the link to the original thread.

I made the punch fit inside a 40 S&W seating die. since the 40S&W jacket has a rim I used my reloading press for the operation. At the time I thought a thicker jacket would work even better in the process. Good luck with your attempts I'll be following along.

BT

[pillardrill]

Hi 303,

do you recon you can nitride steel in the home workshop as you would using casenite?

[pillardrill]

BT,

those bullets real look nice. Well done!

[BT Sniper]

Courious?????? How have you guys been doing on this project? Still shooting alot of these bullets?

BT

[pillardrill]

I have been shooting these types of bullets for ages now. I usually shoot them even to 100yrds with a 9mm carbine and they accuracy was great. I haven’t gotten around making a super accurate tubing cutter cos the results I had so far with these bullets was more than to my satisfaction. I have not fired many hollow point ones but those I fired were as accurate.
I have refined the process to make very accurate bullets from 5/16” tubing instead of 3/8”. The 5/16” is expanded in steps to accurately fill up the final forming die. Actually it’s one step but I use a special tool which I designed.
I have fired subsonic ones and many others that were close to moderate .357 loads. Never had a hint of trouble. Bullets stay intact but go splat when they hit whilst commercial 9mm bullets would be hardly marked .

[stealthshooter]

Just ran onto this thread. Very cool idea!!

[frank martinez]

Thanks for digging this thread up.
I was wondering a while back how to make my 9mm Berggman more effective. By loading a little hotter and using the notch die with soldered lead core the expansion would add a full caliber to the hole. Even at the slower speeds the round would be deadly on dear out to 150 yards.
Frank

[bbekalb]

so any word if these will be manufactured? and how much if they are?

[tyeo098]

Well now I know what my first lathe project will be :)
****, necrothredia! I read the whole thread and got all excited... forgot it was 2 years old!