caseings and castings?

[littlejack]

Hello to you all.
Ive posted on some of the other sites, but this will be the first on the shotgun site, so please bare with the new guy.
Ive been reading some of your posts on casting and loading balls in the shotguns. Been thinkin about getting me a mould and doing the same.
Does it make any difference if the cases are low base or low brass or high base and high brass.
Does anyone make a ball mould of .680 in diameter. I took one of my Win.
super-x cases apart and the wad was .730 diameter and the petals were about
.025 thick. If my math is right, that would make for a .680 diameter ball for no swaging in the cylinder bore choke. There are a lot of .690 moulds. I read that some of you have expierienced petals being swaged in two going through the choke using the .690 ball.
Also, would it be feasable to use the short cases ( I don't know what they are called) that are on the market, if one could find them.
Also, can a person buy a star crimp to replace the crimp after shortening the length of a standard case?
Any help very much appreciated.
Jack

[klcarroll]

I use a .685” ball in my round ball loads. It seats well in a standard Winchester WAA12SL. (If you’re into economy, the pink Claybuster replacement for that wad works just as well.)

I use one .025” overshot card on top of the ball, ….just to help stabilize the fold crimp.
This combination “pinches” the petals a little bit going through the IC choke on my Saiga; ……But not enough that I’m worried about it.

…..Also remember that a round ball presents a very narrow “equatorial band” to the bore; …and unless you’re casting them out of linotype and then hardening them, that little bit of lead “swages” rather easily.

My mould was made by Lyman. I’m not sure if they still do .685”, but it wouldn’t hurt to ask! Last time I looked, Dixie Gun Works still sold a mould in the .680” - .685” range.

I personally prefer round balls over slugs in smoothbore guns: ….At least in my Saiga, the “service accuracy” is fairly consistent, ….in that there don’t seem to be as many “radical flyers”. When a slug decides to “go sight-seeing” for some reason (stuck wad, skirt collapse, whatever….) the results can be really “creative”!

I’m not trying to make my Saiga shoot like a rifle: …..If I get a 4” – 5” group at 50 yards that I can DEPEND on; …….I’m a happy camper!

.........And the performance is great! A round ball seems to significantly out-penetrate a slug at any given velocity. I cast my RBs hard, for tactical considerations; ....And when when shooting at old cars, there is ALWAYS an exit hole on the other side of the vehicle! If something big was considering biting me, I have NO doubt that this load has the penetration capability to get to something vital!


I am just a bit cautious about shortening shells too much! …..A little bit should be no problem; ……But when you start playing with some of the really short “experimental” rounds I have read about, I wonder about the possibility of “wad cocking” if the column has to “jump” an excessive length of chamber before getting to the forcing cone.


Kent

[littlejack]

Kent:
Thanks for the reply.
If you use a full length case, what do you use, if anything, to fill the case to the crimp. Do you add wads under the ball to bring it up to the crimp or do you use some other filler? Cream of wheat for instance? What is your procedure for reloading the cases. I do not have a shotgun press, (sold it years ago). I will be dismantleing cases and replacing the shot with a ball.
I may remove the powder charge and recharge the case for full effect after checking out my reloading books. I have seen here on this site, that 38 grains of Bluedot seems to be a good charge.
It looks a though most of the other posters on this site do shorten the case to accomodate the length reduction of the ball. I would however like to be able to put a nice star crimp on the ball round.
Jack

[klcarroll]

Actually, using the WAA12SL wad, in a full-length Winchester AA hull, ....I get a good fold crimp when I use the previously mentioned .025 over-shot card.

The problem you will have is finding light loads to disassemble. (The WAA12SL is intended for 7/8 to 1 ounce loads.)

If you are serious about working up dependable round ball loads, ....I would strongly encourage you to pick up a used MEC 600. They can be had on Ebay regularly in the $40 - $70 range. (The cost of maybe ten boxes of shells!)

.....And again, if you're talking about shortening the cases by maybe .200"; .....I have no problem with that! ..........Just be careful if you start experimenting with shells shorter than 2.00" in a standard chamber.


Kent

[runfiverun]

you will also want to skiive the case mouth so it will accept the crimp properly.
balistic products sell the skiivers they also sell a neat tool for case shortening.

[littlejack]

Thanks for the information fellas. I've been over on ebay lookin at the Mec 600 presses.

[littlejack]

Ok fellas:
I went to the local black powder shop yesterday and bought 1 box (20 balls) of .678 dia. and 1 box of 20 .690 diameter.
I had some Winchester Super - X heavy game loads. 3 1/4 dram, 1 1/8 ounce shot.
I smoothed up the sprue on the .678 balls with a file. I used two .050 card wads in the shot cup to bring the ball up to the right height for the crimp. I dropped the ball in and crimped.
My 870 has a imp. cyl choke. I would have rather had a cyl. choke.
I went to the gun club this morning to try them out. No good. Recoil was not bad but the group was. I only loaded four rounds. Three shots at 50 yards was in 6" with the fourth out to about 14". I am hoping that the choke was too tight. I can get a cylinder bore choke and that will fix that.
I did get some casing while I was there. I picked up five different kinds.
hopefully, you guys can tell me if these or any are suitable for reloading ball loads.
Fiocci Low recoil. Loaded with 1 oz to 1200 fps. This case has medium high brass and a low inner base. All good plastic. Not compression
Federal Top Gun. 3 dram, 1 1/8 oz. low brass ( steel), low card inner base. Good plastic. Not compression.
Federal Game load. Looks to be exactly like above Top Gun case.
Winchester Universal. Low brass (steel), low inner base with inner sleeve up 3/4" side walls. Good plastic, no compression.
Remington 3 1/4 dram. low brass (steel), low inner base. good plastic. Not compression.
I believe the Winchester would pose a problem with the inner sleeve.
The other cases should be very reloadable. All are basically the same inside even comparing the plastic low base to the card low base.
I will look for some reloading data on the net for any of these cases. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Jack

[littlejack]

Can someone tell me how the key in the base of the Lee slug causes it to spin. I have looked at pictures of it and I do not see that the key is helically cast in the slug. Meaning that the key is not cast in a rotated mannor to cause it to rotate.
Some of the Foster slugs have rifling cast or swaged on the outside to get the rotation in smoothbores. The Lee slug key is straight, Right? Or Did I miss something.
Jack

[diehard]

Mind you I'm no expert here, being still in my first half year of reloading slugs, but I've been shooting a lot lately. Over the past several months I have bought several types of slugs and cast and loaded about 400 Lee 7/8 Drive keys. I bought Brennekes, Lyman Sabots, Slugmaster fosters, 1 oz Lees, and several other types. I don't know all the science of it, but I can tell you that through my four 12 gauges, (beside the Brennekes which are very hard to find) the Lyman 525 Sabot shoots the best groups out of smoothbore barrels choked from cylinder to modified. I can easily get 3" groups from three of my guns at 50 yards. It must have something to do with the shuttlecock design of the thing.

The Lee slugs are made for rifled barrels, and I suspect the drive key keeps the slug from expanding like the foster slug is supposed to do, and also helps stablilize them slug AFTER the rifling of the bore imparts a spin on it. I shot over 150 of the Lee slugs before I finally put a rifled choke on my Mossberg. My groups (with some loads) have gone from 10" to an average of 3-5" at 50 yards. I have gotten a few groups better than that, but not many. I do best with Remington Gun Club and Winchester AA hulls, and I put a .125" hard nitro card under the slug to bring it up to crimp height, and to keep the wad from sticking to the slug. Before I did that, my groups were very inconsistant. I've tried the Lee slugs in 6 different brands of hulls. Gold medals do okay, especially with the 12S3 wad. I've tried five different powders with the Lee slugs (both 7/8 oz and 1 oz), and I have gotten my best groups from HS-6 and SR7625 (but only after adding the hard card under the slug). Unique has done ok for me, and Universal was marginally successful for me, but I suspect that was due to my loads (using corks fillers), not the powder.

Over the past three nights I've finished off 30 pounds of newly cast 7/8s Lees and loaded them in Estate hulls, Winchester Universals (the crimps are hard to stick on those), Fed Top Guns, AA's, Gold Medals, Win Super X's (6 pt crimp...crimps well!). I have several hundred of many varieties ready to go for testing to find that ONE great combination. I don't know if I'll ever find it (it is after all shotgun shooting) but it sure is fun trying.

BTW..the Slugmaster fosters shot like a dream through only one of my guns...but that is good enough!

Sorry to hijack your thread with my blathering. My point is....Lee slugs might do best through a rifled choke or rifled bore. Also...I've found 60-70 yards to be the max for any consistant grouping with them. Maybe a fully rifled barrel would do better?

[littlejack]

Diehard, thanks for all the information. This is a whole new chapter in the reloading field. But, as you say, it is fun playing with it. I plan on doing some more testing with the round balls. If I can get them to shoot decent, I will stick with them. If I have to buy a slug mould, thats ok too.
Where are you getting your loading data for your cases? I need more information for my loads. Good loading to ya.
Jack

[diehard]

The Lee molds come with loading data. You can download a copy here:
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/SM3529.pdf

I have also been experimenting just substituting 7/8oz and 1oz slugs for various 7/8 and 1 oz trap loads listed in either the Lyman Shotgun Reloading Manual or Sapp's Reloading for Shotgunners. Hodgdon and Alliant have data on the websites. In fact, I emailed Alliant and the tech said they have data for the Lee slugs using Red Dot and Herco. I told him I already had the data (which was I mistake...I was confused). I need to contact him again and get it.

Although I've reloaded hunting ammo for quite awhile, I have only been doing the slug thing for a few months....I just started casting a few weeks ago. It has become an obsession! I have an awful lot to learn, and have no business coming off as an accomplished reloader. But I will say that I do my homework, and I like to share what I am learning with others. I hope all this helps get you hooked, too.

I'm going to start roundballs as soon as I can get a mold for the 12 gauge. I have a mold for a .575 roundball...and I might start with a 20 gauge, now that I've adapted an ancient Lyman Easy Reloader to do 20 gauge hulls. We can compare notes then!

[littlejack]

diehard:
Thanks for the Lee precision site. I copied it off for reference for eternity.
I called Fiocchi today to get some information on their cases. So far I haven't got a return call.
I also called Federal. They did call back. A fellow did call back. He is sending me some loading data for their loads. He did recommend that I get one of the Lyman loading manuals. I guess I will have to break down and pick one up if I don't get a load that suits me with the round balls and or slugs.
I still want to get a hold of Winchester and find out a cross reference for their shotgun hulls.
I believe that I would like to use the Herco powder, as it is recommended for heavy game and and slug loads. I have read many recommendations for Bluedot, but also read where it is quite dirty.
I guess I will make my final decisions after a lot of R&D with the different loads.
Jack

[diehard]

I guess I will make my final decisions after a lot of R&D with the different loads.


That is the fun part! Good luck and happy shooting!

[littlejack]

diehard:
I did get a Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook 4th Edition at an auction at the gun club where i'm a member. It was $5.00, what a deal. It does have alot of information in it. I see no need in getting the newer 5th edition. Plenty of loads for the slugs.
Jack

[diehard]

That's a great deal! It is a good book, for sure. Happy slugging!

[44magLeo]

Littlejack, the ridges on a rifled slug are not there for imparting a spin on the slug. They are there to center the slug in the barrel and compress with out deforming the slug too much as it passes through all choke constrictions. There is not much you can do to a regular slug to get it to spin by adding something to the slug.
On the Lee slugs the key is to keep the sides of the slug in contact with the rifling of a rifled barrel. The rifling if the barrel is what causes the slug to spin.
To shoot the Lee slug in a smooth bore it will shoot about the same as a regular slug.

[diehard]

Right on about the foster slugs and rifling....

Wow! It's been a long time since this thread was posted, and I suspect that many folks have learned much more about the Lee slugs since then. I know I have. Just to clarify (and not to be argumentative) the drive key on the Lee slug is designed to keep the wad from blowing into the slug cavity. In fact, when you shoot them the key digs into the wad and locks it there so that the slug--wad and all-- will spin with the rifling of the barrel. Just look at a wad after shooting through a rifled barrel or rifled choke and you will see the indentation of the drive key and the rifling marks on the outside of the wad. My point is, loaded as intended by Lee, the plastic wad is what contacts the rifling in the bore. I think this is what Lee means when it describes its slug this way:
[
I]Lee Slug Mold features the exclusive drive key. The drive key positively rotates the slug in rifled shotgun barrels. The key doubles as a support rib allowing use of a standard trap wad - no need for a support wad or base filler. Sabot wad design outperforms rifled slugs in rifled slug barrels. Velocity and accuracy meet and exceed expensive factory loaded rifled slugs.[/I]
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1295277669.3449=/html/catalog/blackpow.html#shotgun

I whole-heartedly agree that when shooting the Lee through a smoothbore it does act like any other Foster slug--except that it doesn't seem to expand to bore size inside the wad (I can only guess, never having been able to find spent slugs at my range)--which explains why accuracy is literally "hit or miss". I continue to use a hard card under the slug when shooting through a smoothbore so the wad and slug separate more cleanly. At least in my imagination this seems to work best. For short range through my M590 my slugs maintain "minute-of-chest-cavity" accuracy.

I have never loaded Lee slugs without the plastic wads, so I don't really know for sure, but it would seem that without the wad this undersized slug would not perform very well in either a smoothbore or rifled barrel.

Anyone out there ever tried loading Lee slugs "naked" (the slugs, I mean)?:smile:

[turbo1889]

. . . I have never loaded Lee slugs without the plastic wads, so I don't really know for sure, but it would seem that without the wad this undersized slug would not perform very well in either a smoothbore or rifled barrel.

Anyone out there ever tried loading Lee slugs "naked" (the slugs, I mean)?:smile:

A guy over on the handloads forum tried that in 12ga. a few years back (Lee slug naked) trying to make those short little stubby shells that let you get a whole lot more rounds in the tube magazine on a pump gun. Didn't work well at all and he got terrible accuracy and ribbons of lead in his barrel; so second time around he wrapped them with masking tape until they were up to bore diameter and that worked really well for him.

I've also know of one guy who had a push through press sizer made to size both of the Lee wad-slugs and the Lyman 12ga. wad-slugs down just a little so they fit the bore of his 16ga. double gun and he was shooting them that way cast from pure lead tumble lubed in the Lee mule snot and they were working just fine for him.

[41magfan]

I've only recovered one slug and that was shot into railroad ballest. Dia .730, its smashed down to just under .500 so you can't see much of the sides