.30-30 crimp necessary??

[JDL]

We have heard and read time after time for eons that tube fed levers must have a crimp applied or suffer the consequencies of having a bullet telescope back into the case from recoil. Now, this advise was targeted at jacketed bullets mostly and it seems reasonable enough for slugs with diameters of .307"-.308" but, what about cast with their girth of not less than .309" and over? Mine drop from the mold from .3095" to .312" and I use a .311" sizer to apply checks and lube.

My reason for questioning this sage advise comes from the range session I had a couple of days ago. I once had a Savage 99 in .30-30 that was foolishly sold years ago by some idiot, who will remain nameless. ;-)I shot a lot of cast loads in it which was never crimped for the rotary magazine and, last week, I found a box I had loaded for it all those years ago. I had to salvage these cases and determined that I could have much more fun shooting them rather than pulling the boolits with side cutters!:-D

I loaded up my Winchester 94 with 6 rounds each time before they were fired, except, of course, the last 2. I checked each as I levered a fresh one in the chamber and didn't have a problem with any telescoping down into the case. So, do you think it is really necessary to crimp .30-30s using our favorite projectile? -JDL

[crazy mark]

JDL,
I find it necessary if running loads close to full power. I had a few try to dissapear in the case. The heavier the bullet and load the bigger the chance in my opinion. Mark

[lovedogs]

Bullets going back into the case isn't the only problem one can encounter. In some instances a crimp helps smooth the feeding. I think I'd use at least a light crimp just to assure they fed smoothly. And sometimes you never know how many times a round will be left in the magazine and have to endure recoil. If left in for several shots you could start having a problem, also.

[versifier]

Another reason to crimp is to allow sufficient pressure to build up in the case before the bullet begins to move. This can sometimes make a big difference in the accuracy. I don't know enough about interior ballistics to say why, but I have proved it true. Interestingly, sometimes it is not necessary. My Rem788 (that I sold) did not like to have anything crimped, and neither did an SSP rotary breech (also sold) handgun. My Contender preferred crimped loads, as did my Savage 24, and my friend's Savage bolt action. My brother's and friends' W94's all get crimped loads regardless. I would not recommend uncrimped loads in any lever action with a tubular magazine. With any other, try it and see because you never know what it will like best without testing, and check to see if the recoil pushes them in or pulls them out, which can happen in a rotary or detachable magazine where the rim prevents the bullet/boolit noses from hitting the front of the magazine. Telescoping is less likely to occur with larger diameter cast boolits, but it is still a potential problem during loading and under recoil. Unlike other .30cal cases, not all .30-30's require larger diameter boolits, many like them sized to .308.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Without a crimp, the lip of the case might get caught up. Guaranteed if it did happen, it would be on the trophy of a lifetime, Murphy's law and all.

I prefer a crimp to ensure good feeding and good start to the combustion.

Go ahead and try it, no crimp, mild crimp, just enough to prevent the case mouth from hanging up on anything and then try a good solid crimp. I'd be trying this with 5 shot groups and repeating the test a few times to get a real result.

I use the Lee factory crimp dies as, I like em tight, I figure if the guys with the labs and all the experts working for them (ammo companies) go to the extra trouble of putting a good crimp on their ammo, there must be something to it.

[versifier]

Not to be too cynical, but I think their motivation is more out of fear of legal problems - some bananahead might otherwise have a 170gr telescope, pressure levels peak, KABOOM, lawsuit. [smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

.......So, do you think it is really necessary to crimp .30-30s using our favorite projectile? -JDL

I load 30-30 for a M94 and a TC Contender carbine barrel. I size 311041HP bullets .311" and use a .309" M die expander (.31 cal). I crimp my heavy hunting loads just because Murphy is out there as mentioned. With the Lee 314-90-TL I also size .311 and use the same expeander. I taper crimp to remove the flare only to prevent feeding problems as mentioned also. These are used with 2.7 gr of Bullseye and run 800 fps so recoil is not the problem, the magazine spring pressure is. Without the .003" neck tension the spring of a loaded mag will push these little bullets back into the case.

However, with 311291 and RCBS 30-150-FN I size at .309" and use a standard M die .30 expander. These are also crimped when veloctiy is above 1600 fps. I have some special accuracy loads for the TC that there is no need to crimp. These are with long heavy bullets and won't go through the M94 anyway.

All jacketed hunting bullet loads of 125 - 190 gr are crimped with a Lee factory crimp die.

To answer the question; Is crimping necessary? It depends.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

factory crimps were around a long time before the current dumb ( read greedy more likely) lawsuits.

[robertbank]

I'm with 4fingermick on this when it comes to lawsuits.

I too would be more concerned about ignition and accuracy IF I could get me head around the fact in the heat of my 2nd shot at a trophy I missed the fact the next round had the boolit set back in the case. Aside from missing the trophy might not be one of life's enduring experiences if a kaboom happened.

Take Care

[Bman]

I once had a Win 94 that would push bullets into the case on factory ammunition. I had to cut some coils off the spring and with Remington 170's crimp with the Lee FCD to keep them in place.

[C1PNR]

My 1894 in 32 Winchester Special will push even crimped J-bullets back if I cycle them through from magazine to chamber several times.

When hunting I usually load the chamber of my rifle when I exit the vehicle to begin a hunt. I do this by taking the round out of my pocket, sliding it into the magazine, and then working the lever to load it into the chamber.

Upon reaching the vehicle without shooting I remove the chambered round and put it back in my pocket, without moving another round into the chamber.

Next time out of the vehicle, round goes back into the magazine, and then back into the chamber.

After several cycles of loading, unloading, etc., I have to watch the round very carefully when it's chambered. In many cases over the years, I've found the bullet to set back into the case. When that happens I've used the impact bullet puller to bring the round back to correct overall length and then I usually just single load and fire it.

I've not had that problem, yet, with cast. And I don't know why, unless the crimp on cast is better, or placed in a deeper crimping groove?

Anyway, that's my experience with the two types of ammo.

[Maineboy]

When hunting I usually load the chamber of my rifle when I exit the vehicle to begin a hunt. I do this by taking the round out of my pocket, sliding it into the magazine, and then working the lever to load it into the chamber.

Upon reaching the vehicle without shooting I remove the chambered round and put it back in my pocket, without moving another round into the chamber.

Next time out of the vehicle, round goes back into the magazine, and then back into the chamber.


I take this to mean it is legal to have a rifle with rounds in the magazine in your vehicle. Laws sure do vary from state to state don't they. In Maine, your method would get you a citation for having a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle.

[tom barthel]

Don't know if this applies. I recently ran 8 rounds of .30-30 AI over the chronograph. I was shooting the Lee C309-170 RF over 33 grains of imr 4895 and a winchester magnum primer. Velocity was from 2060 fps to 2170 fps. Everything but the crimp was the same. The only difference was some were crimped and some were not. All were very accurate. Next time out I'll try ALL crimped. Some time in the future, I may try uncrimped. Just seems strange having that big a spread. I would suggest trying both ways. Go with the best most uniform.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Boy, out here they would charge you, confiscate you rifle and any others you had on you and haul ass around to your house and confiscate those too. You wouldn't be getting them back until after everthing was sorted out and not probably then either.

[wmitty]

Mick,
Here in north Texas it used to be that many folks carried their rifle in a gun rack above the bench seat in their pickups. I don't see much of this anymore, but many of these rifles had loaded magazines in case the driver spotted a coyote while driving. I aways figured it was a good way to get a perfectly good rifle stolen when stopping to buy gas and leaving the truck unlocked. Anyway, nobody seemed to think of it as being much of a problem. We recently had a state trooper shot by two guys who were carrying a number of firearms in their car. I figure most Texans feel like me... convict and execute these two ASAP ;
but someone is bound to start hollering it was the loaded pistols and rifle that caused the problem.

[C1PNR]

Maybe I should elaborate a little. Yeah, laws vary by location.

Almost all of my hunting in California was on private property where the California Vehicle Code regulations of "Loaded firearm on Public Property" did not apply.

When we crossed the County Road from one section of the ranch to another, through locked gates, we did empty the magazine. State Vehicle Code.

Colorado is more like Texas. Nothing in the chamber, but loaded magazine is fine. Every time we were stopped by F & G in Colorado the first thing they asked was for us to open the bolt or lever, at least far enough to verify nothing chambered.

The reason we emptied the chamber before getting into a vehicle on private property was safety, not some law designed to disarm citizens in their vehicles.

I don't know what the law is in Idaho. I just looked in the Hunting regulations for 2005 (2006 will be online 4/1 and printed when they get a Round Tuit) and there is no mention. I presume it's covered in the Vehicle Code. I'll have to look that up.

Many years ago you would see a rifle, shotgun, or fishing pole in the back window rack of most pickups on the road. Over the last 30 years or so there has been a steady decline in this practice in the larger towns and citys in the State. Too much theft!:Fire: For a long time I carried my rifle in a pouch on the bottom of the seat covers of my pickup. Not visible, but very easily reached when I exited the vehicle.