a little chemical engineering help.

[Beekeeper]

I am working on an old Gahendra Martini Henry rifle barrel.
At first I thought it might be a good barrel but as I cleaned it with an electronic barrel cleaner it became worse and worse.
I have tried everything I have ever used as a bore cleaner and still get gunk and crud out of it.
I read on annother forum where someone used a diluted vinegar solution to clean a bore with an electronic cleaner.
After having tried everything I could think of I have given it a try.
The rod becomes so contaminated in about 15 minutes it stops working.
When you try to clean the rod it requires emery paper and the gunk comes off in flakes and almost looks like charcoal.
Is this something that could be left over from shooting this rifle with BP 120 years ago?
Is it some kind of BP fouling left over from then?
Am I hurting the barrel using the vinegar solution?
If so what solution would you use ?
Have tried
Amonia
baking soda and water
Kroil, A 4 day soak!
even tried Mr clean , which is amonia and soapy water.

The vinegar solution is the only thing that has cut the crud but again I am not sure if it is hurting the barrel.

Would appreciate any help anyone has.



beekeeper

[runfiverun]

shoot it out.
try a cast boolit or p/p with a bit of clover lapping compound on it.

[August]

JB Bore Paste, from Brownells.

[Freightman]

shoot it out.
try a cast boolit or p/p with a bit of clover lapping compound on it.
Yep!Did that and it worked on a Veterlli.

[lead Foot]

I use Watered Ammonia for an electrolyte when cleaning copper out of a barrel. But if it is to far gone it is hard to bring back from the dead. You could try a solution of 50/50 molasses and water.
Lead foot;

[montana_charlie]

Is this something that could be left over from shooting this rifle with BP 120 years ago?
Is it some kind of BP fouling left over from then?
It could be anything, and it might be alternating layers of more that one kind of corruption.

You can pull one kind of crud by using 'solution a' with the electric tool.
If that stops but the bore is still not clean, you switch to 'solution b' to pull the next layer of 'stuff'.
As long as crud collects on the rod, you are removing 'something' from the bore.

If you have grown impatient with the electric, here is a possible method to consider...

Diesel fuel is a surprisingly effective solvent...and not extremely costly.

You have tried a lot of things while trying to find the magic solvent, and you have spent a lot of time using them. If I were in your position (and I hope that never happens) this is what I would do.

Buy a six-foot length of four-inch plastic pipe, and cement solid caps on the ends.
Using a bandsaw and cutting lengthwise, slice off about a third of the pipe...leaving a long trough.

Place a cleaning rod in the bore with a nylon bore brush screwed on the end.
Lay the barrel in the trough and fill it with diesel fuel.

Several times per day, stop by the trough and run the nylon brush back and forth a few times.
The trough is long enough that you don't even need to lift the barrel to work the rod.

If you get a discolored cloud of gunk coming out of the bore when running the brush, it means the diesel is breaking down whatever is in there. Every couple of days, you might want to siphon off the dirty stuff and replace with clean fuel.

If you don't get discoloration, the diesel is not the needed solvent...and I would switch to Kroil. But the cost to fill the trough will increase noticeably.

If neither of these will break down the crud, I guess going back the the electric method...and scraping the rod every fifteen minutes...is your only choice.

CM

[hiram]

Did you try a foaming cleaner http://www.sharpshootr.com/

[HWooldridge]

Could it be old dried cosmoline? If so, a petroleum distillate such as diesel or lighter fluid would cut it.

[Beekeeper]

Thanks everyone for the info.
Will keep at it ,I think i can see the light at the end of the tunnel now.
Have it soaking with kroil now and will resume cleaning it tomorrow.
Thanks again


beekeeper

[.45Cole]

If you are dealing with some petroleum product, acetone (nail polish remover) is a GREAT solvent. Try looking at a chemistry book under the electro chemistry chapter for the chemical potentials, which will help you decide what the best electrolyte solution is.

[leadman]

I use a purple cleaner that is sold under various names at auto parts stores. It is a fairly strong alkali solution that we used in our steam cleaner and high pressure washers when I was a heavy equipment mechanic.
It is great at removing crud from old gun barrels and fouling out of shotgun bores. Works great on auto parts, etc.

Do not get it on anodized parts as it will remove this coating.
I put some in a container and stick the muzzle end of the gun in it on the floor, then either use a jag and tight patch or a bore mop and pump it up an down. Wire brush can be used also. Follow up with bore cleaner then oil.
Sells for about $6 to $7 a gallon.

[HWooldridge]

I use a purple cleaner that is sold under various names at auto parts stores. It is a fairly strong alkali solution that we used in our steam cleaner and high pressure washers when I was a heavy equipment mechanic.
It is great at removing crud from old gun barrels and fouling out of shotgun bores. Works great on auto parts, etc.

Do not get it on anodized parts as it will remove this coating.
I put some in a container and stick the muzzle end of the gun in it on the floor, then either use a jag and tight patch or a bore mop and pump it up an down. Wire brush can be used also. Follow up with bore cleaner then oil.
Sells for about $6 to $7 a gallon.

That's a really good kink - thanks for sharing.

[Bill*]

Beekeeper: please let us know how it turns out and which method "did the trick". Thanx

[Cactus Farmer]

[QUOTE=leadman;624796].

Do not get it on anodized parts as it will remove this coating.

Not much anodized stuff on Martini copies I've seen!:coffee:

[BABore]

Plug the bore and fill it up with Ed's Red for a couple days. Kroil oil may also help get underneath the fouling so it bushes out easier.

[scrapcan]

TRhe alternating method is what I had to do on a czech 98/22 mauser. I used ed's red/ammonia or copper solevent (sweets, butch's, barnes copper solvent, etc...) /MEK Top end cleaner from GM dealer parts counter.

The MEK will take out the carbon. the ed's red will help lift the various layers, the amonia will take out the copper.

The process wa a pain, but after who knows how much shooting the old arms deserve a little tlc.

[captaint]

Sounds like you may not have much barrel left when it's all over. Try everything. Maybe paper patching when you're done. The guys say that will spiff up a barrel pretty good. Enjoy Mike

[Beekeeper]

Well here is the final report on the barrel.
The diluted vinegar in the electronic bore cleaner worked to break up the crud enough for me to use the baking soda and water with the bore cleaner to get it out.
The bore will never be pretty or shiney.
IT is rough with some pitting . The chamber has rust that nothing I have would remove. The brass fits the chamber snuggly.
The readings are .455 at the chamber , .456 at the muzzle and it bells out to .460 in the middle making it (for me ) unshootable.
I will reassemble it and make it a safe queen and conversation piece until I can find a replacement barrel or rebarrel it in a different caliber( black powder only of course)

I will Have spent almost a month working on it ,about 5 or 6 hours a day and consider the $149.99 I spent on it prety good entertainment. I have spent a heck of a lot more and gotten a heck of a lot less.

I will still use it as a trainer for paper patching and will learn as much as possible.



Jim


beekeeper

[Beekeeper]

Forgot to add.
there is little rifling left on the bore
Considering the fact it was hand made 120 years ago , hand rifled , dipped in Yak-Fat and stored in a leaky temple with 95 to 100 percent humidity I am amazed it is in as good shape as it is . The action is near perfect and when reassembled to test it all pieces fit with less than 5 thousands inch clearance.
pretty good engineering for some hut in the jungle of Nepal.

beekeeper

[Nose Dive]

To clean GUNK..try Ed's Red. (see MANLEYJT ABOVE) No good on Copper although as no Ammonia in it.

But Cosmoline is GONE! Greasey, finger cheese..sticky gook...all gone.

Cooper goes with ammonia, just don't get it in your eyes. They will go too.

Can get an old toohbrush and do some scrubbin with ole Ed's Red and it works magic. Leave parts lightly coated in oil film.

[markinalpine]

Don't know how they do it, but gunsmiths can bore out the barrel and re-line it. Maybe with a smaller dimension that you can get contemporary components for, or that you can find a mould for to cast your own. I read an article at surplusrifle.com about reforming brass shotgun shell hulls to make cartridges to fit the Martini-Henry: http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/loadingforthemartinihenry/index.asp
Seems like a lot of trouble, so mayber relining yours so you can handload brass you can buy off the shelf, and maybe get a custom mould to cast boolits would be an answer.
Good Luck,
Mark

[markinalpine]

Meant to say, with a "different chamber." You could still use a .45 boolit/bullet, but maybe a 45-70 cartridge.

[windrider919]

A decade ago I got an old Trapdoor Springfield that actually shot fairly well. Regular 3 inch groups at 100 yards. The barrel did not look too bad and yet the patches never came clean. So I soaked it in diesel for a couple of days then switched over to a bore full of Hoppe's #9 for a day. I then used a bronze brush a dozen times back n forth with the barrel back in the diesel tray again.

I got about a cups worth of nasty black crud out of the barrel.

But when I looked down the barrel the rifling was about gone and the barrel was heavily pitted! All that crud had lined the barrel and filled in all the pits and irregularities!

Took it back to the range and with the same ammo that had given 3" groups i now got 9" groups. And it leaded like crazy where before it had not. I traded it to another person who wanted it as a wall gun.

Another lesson in letting a sleeping dog alone. :)