Hunting with BP 12 guage shells

[omgb]

Hey, I just finished the last Chukkar hunt of the year using my BP 12 Guage shells. The over-all report is that they work perfectly. I had two basic loads. One was a 90 grain load with 2F and 11/8oz of #7 shot. This was a very light load that didn't kill well beyond 30 yards. Great for skeet though. It was slow enough that leads had to be extended quit a bit on stations 3 and 4 of the skeet range. The other load was 100 grains of 3f and 11/4oz of #71/2 shot. This was a heavy load, maybe 31/2 dram equiv or more. It killed exceptionally well out to 40 plus yards. Big shot of the day was a long 45 yard shot at a bird that had flushed to my left. I had to wait for the bird to clear several Yucca and creosote plants and when I finally got a shot at him it was from the back. One shot and he went down stone dead. Post mortum on all 6 birds killed showed excellent penetration and a good number of hits.

Clean up was a breeze. 5 minutes max including pulling the choke tubes and relubing them with anti-sieze. This was tons of fun. I think all of my upland game shooting will be with BP shells for quite some time. Ya gotta be ready for the noise though. Geez, that boom is huuuuuuge! The smoke is pretty thick too. Fortunately, we had a good breeze yesterday. If any of you are thinking about trying this and need some pointers, I'd be happy to pass on what I have discovered.

R J Talley

[Buckshot]

..............Great report! I really enjoyed reading it. Have you thought about getting any of those brass Mag-Tech 12 gauge hulls? They come now set up for large pistol primers but you can convert then to 209 primers if you think you need them.

So is the wad pusher inner thingamabob working good?

...............Buckshot

[omgb]

That little tool is perfect. It really seats the card wad exactly as it should be and sets things up for sealing with super glue.

I have thought about trying Magtech hulls but honestly, I have almost 40 of the old Winchester hulls and they seem to last forever. I think too, large pistol primers are the best choice to ignite BP. I have used some modern AA hulls using 209s and the recoil is much greater leading me to suspect that the primers are too hot for BP cartridges.

I recently purchased two old Lyman Straightline tools to augment my loading practice with these things. When they arrive I'll photo them, test them and post a report. I may have another machining idea in mind. I'd love to have your input on it after I flesh it out.

[KCSO]

I am somewhat curious about your loads. Are these real black powder and if so what brand? I am using 102 grains of FFg and 1 1/8 oz of #5's for a turkey load and i think that is a real heavy load. My standard load is around 75 grains for most hunting and that seems to work well on pheasants to 35 yards. All my loads are with goex FFG as I have found that FFF tends to put holes in a pattern. By your mention of choke tubes I gather that you are shooting a modern gun? I use either an Ithaca or a JP Sauer double, on choked full and fuller and the other in Imp and modified.

[9.3X62AL]

The "dram" equals 1/16 oz........there are 27.34 grains in a dram, so your 100 grain load is well on its way toward the higher-end of 3-3/4 drams, and not "drams equivalent"--yer shooting The Real Deal upland bird/chukar and pheasant load with 1-1/4 oz of shot, likely close to 1300 FPS or better. Remember also that for most uses that modern Goex 3F is really about 2.5F from 100 years ago, which makes for a pretty good 12 or 16 gauge powder as it sits.

I've done a little BP shotgunning my own self from time to time, and the biggest challenge on dove hunts is to "mark" the downed birds through the powder cloud. A muzzle loading shotgun on a dove hunt is a lot like using a Colt 1860 for CCW--it'll do the job, and attract attention in the bargain once your method and impliment is discerned.

[omgb]

I'm using a Ruger Gold Lable SxS. For most shooting I use a skeet choke in the right barrel and a modified in the left.

The loads are real BP. I haven't had a problem with holes in the pattern as far as I can tell. I hit what I aim at with the same frequency I got with smokeless loads and I kill what I hit. We shoot over pointers though so shots are not all that tough.

I began load development using an old Parker adjustable powder measure marked off in drams for powder and ounces for shot. I set the measure for 3 drams of 2f BP. I checked it against a TC adjustable powder measure and got 90 grains. This load felt light (11/8 oz of 71/2 shot) and it didn't always penetrate on pheasant even on close 20 yard shots. So, I went to 100 grains of 3f. This load was definitely a STOUT load. Lots of felt recoil, tons of noise and well hit birds. It is not a load I'd want to shoot skeet with. I've since backed off to 100 grains of 2f. It's still heavy but much more comfortable. In cases like the AA trap hull with a 209 primer this load tends to really bark on both ends of the gun. In old Winchester brass hulls and large pistol primers it feels much lighter.

In the Win cases, I load the primer, powder and top with an 11 GA over powder wad. It's a snug fit in the case and the edges curl very slightly up. I then follow with an 11 GA 5/8" fiber wad lubed with melted SPG. I compress this with 30lbs of pressure as measured on an old single station Eagle brand press. Next comes the shot charge. I top this with a paper thin card wad that has a small typed disk stuck on it listing the charge. I press this into the case mouth using a tool Buckshot made up for me. I then run a bead of medium thickness Zap or Satelite City brand (super glue or CA) around the mouth to seal the card wad. This leaves about 1/8" from the top of the shot to the top of the case mouth.

I use only GOEX barnd BP. I have 777 but don't care for it much. I don't like paying the price for Pyrodex either. I get GOEX for around $12.00 a pound and at 100 grains a shell, go through it pretty quick so price is an issue to some degree.

So far, I've never sized these cases nor have I anealed them. I do scrub them in warm soapy water, use a Lee primer pocket tool on them and then tumble them in my vibratory case cleaner using walnut shells for a couple of hours. Interestingly, they will fit perfectly in my Ruger chamber but will not fit in an old Fox model B I have. Ruger must cut their chambers on the chubbie side.

[Buckshot]

.............omgb, no sense sizing your brass if it loads fine and fits the gun you're gonna use it in, is there :-)?

It costs more, and you did mention cost as a factor, but have you considered trying some Swiss BP? It's the closest we have today to the late 1800's sporting grade powder. It's also the only BP on the market which burns moist. A lot of the BPCR silhuette guys have gone to Swiss 1.5 Fg, as have most of the long range (1000 yd) small bore muzzle loading guys (2 or 1.5 Fg).

It is a dense powder. A sliding volumetric measure set at 72 grains delivered about exactly that with Elephant 2Fg BP. Subsituting Swiss 2 Fg yeilded 83.0grs actual wieght. I haven't shot any Goex in ages except recently some pretty old 1Fg in the Snider, so I don't know how it figures into the picture.

I quite using Goex about 6 years ago and went to Elephant (which is NLA) and Swiss because of the very hard crusty fouling I was getting with Goex at the time. The power was there, but so was difficult fouling.

I have never cared for PYrodex, and that is the only substitute I've ever used. Never have bought any either! All the Pyrodex I have or used was all given to me.

...................Buckshot

[omgb]

I have wanted to try Swiss in my 45-90 as it does give me fouling problems in hot weather. I just don't see the need for it in a shotgun though. Fouling hasn't been a problem even after 20 rounds. When using these for skeet, I have been firing 10 or so rounds of BP and then two of smokelesss. The smokeless seems to remove almost all of the fouling.. weird but a good thing I think.

[omgb]

As to Pyrodex and 777 ... both are very expensive relative to BP and other than a wider availability factor, offer the BP shooter very little advantage compared with the added cost IMHO. Trip 7 is more potent and the fouling doesn't seem to accumulate but, it still is corrosive and its shot to shot variation in velocity is no where near as good as BP. Thus, I don't like it. As to Pyrodex .... the big question is why? :Fire: What do I gain from it in a shotgun? It costs about $21.00 a pound in the PRK and it doesn't shoot any better. It doesn't claen up any better either so again, why bother? Any way, I'm enjoying the heck out of this. It has put a lot of the joy back into shotgunning for me. I suspect my hunting buddies in QU think I'm odd, but really, who cares? They're not being asked to marry me, they just have to shoot with me.[smilie=w: [smilie=w:

[Bigjohn]

G'day, I have found that if you are shooting or doing something which is different to the accepted normality your fellow shooters will label you as 'touched':veryconfu . I have over the years shot many a pound of the black stuff. I remember many years ago; going hunting with a fellow who wishes to remain nameless [smilie=1: . He carried a Mossberg 8 shot Pump 12g and I the side by side percussion shotie. All he could do was complain that everytime I fired he could not see the rabbits. Well I had two in the hand when he decide to head off in another direction. After a short period of time I heard him unload the contents of his magazine through the barrel. When we got back to together I asked him how many he shot; NONE! To this day he still chides me about laying down a smoke screen to hide the rabbits.

Today I shoot a I. Hollis & Sons short chamber 12g with once fired trimmed plastic hulls retrieved from our range. The load is only 65gr 2ffg GOEX with Blue & Gray fibre wads and same volume of #4 shot. Shells are sealed with parafin wax.
It's a light gun, mild load and shoots well, just have to work within it's limitations.

John:drinks: