Accidental Discharge - ER visit required

[archmaker]

Was shooting my 45 at the range and the gun jammed on a round.

It was not all the way forward, but it was hard to pull the slide back, so I put my left hand with the little finger toward the front. Just as it released the round went off.

The case blew up and I had a piece of brass in my palm and in my finger. The piece that was in palm was about 1/2" by 1/4" the other piece was smaller but harder for the Dr to remove.

Anybody have any idea why it happened?

I am thinking a high primer.

[sdelam]

Glad your alright, mostly. So it went off when you pulled the slide back? Did you wait before trying to open it or did you try right away? Perhaps a stuck firing pin?

[archmaker]

I would say i waited about 4 - 6 from the time the jam happened until the discharge.

[Trey45]

What kind of pistol, who makes it?

[mooman76]

Was it a Glock by chance. I had the same thing happen. I wasn't sure what happened but figured I must have put my finger on the trigger by accident. The round didn't blow up though, it just fired. I was lucky. The only damage was to my pants which were fixed with a good cleaning. I was going back and forth whether or not to sell my Glock and that was the desiding factor. The Glock and some other autos like it have a rod that sticks out when the slide is pulled back. I have often wondered about the primer of a live round hitting it when ejecting. Also I have heard of some glocks going off when slightly out of battery.

[archmaker]

Taurus 1911 fairly new. 200gr Cast 8gr AA#5

The case split from the base forward. The piece that went into my palm looks to be from the front of the case.

No wet pants :) but I lost at least a pint of blood before the ER got the brass removed. Took about 1.5 hours for that to happen.

[BD]

Tough to say without more info. It is possible to touch off a jammed round against the ejector in the 1911 if the primer is in contact with the ejector.
BD

[NSP64]

If it was a 1911 style and you were trying to tap it into battery with your left hand and it went of , the disconnect sear may be worn alowing the hammer to be dropped when out of battery. That is a pre-shooting check I perform on my 1911 style pistols. With a empty/cocked gun, I push the muzzle back till the slide comes back/ barrel starts to tilt then grip it like you are going to shoot and pull the trigger. nothing should happen if the disconnector is functioning correctly. I also grip the empty /cocked gun without gripping the grip safety(takes some practice) and try pulling the trigger. Again nothing should happen. If either one of these tests fail(hammer drops) take it in to get it fixed.

P.S. Glad your ok

If the gun passes tests, you may have had a high seated primmer.

[lunicy]

Yikes!!

Glad to hear you are ok.

[montana_charlie]

So it went off when you pulled the slide back? Did you wait before trying to open it or did you try right away?
I would say i waited about 4 - 6 from the time the jam happened until the discharge.
4 - 6 seconds?...hours?...days?

[jsizemore]

Had you had an failures to feed before that one?
I was using White Label BAC (beeswax+alox+carnuba) that didn't mix well with AA#5. Lots of gummed up carbon. It would cause some FTF after extended shooting. That and a high primer could be the culprit.

[archmaker]

4-6 Seconds. I had a few rounds do the same. (Jam) Lengthy session at the range load development ( I was shooting the last 9 rds then headed home)

I am going to stay away from #5 anyway. :)

[Firebricker]

archmaker, I'm glad to hear your ok. That paws gonna be sore a while. FB

[HeavyMetal]

Glad to hear your OK, kinda sorta. Hope you get better soon!

Figure I know what happened, and it's already been mentioned, you have an extended ejector, ala Colt Commander, in your Taurus 1911!

When you pulled the slide back to clear the round, it was stuck so you had to pull pretty hard, it forced the primer into the extended nose of the ejector and fired the round out of battery!

I hate this particular ejector design, unfortuantely every custom gunsmith seems to think a 1911 won't function without one! Companies like Taurus are "monkey see monkey do" for this kind of stuff and are only trying to attract buyers with the lastest greatest features!

When the hand heals strip the slide off put a carburundum cut off wheel in your Dremel tool and cut that B.... off flat with the face of the ejector! Basically copy the original 1911 ejector design.

You can "tilt" the surface a bit to help get the empties to go one direction with the same cut off tool. Be careful these are very brittle and will snap in a hot second if you apply to much side pressure to the disc!

By the way this is the forth time in the last 8 years I've heard of this happening to someone! If you see someone that has one of these commander type ejectors in there gun please advise them of the danger!

[MtGun44]

+1 on extended ejector. Not needed on a full sized 1911, dangerous to eject a loaded
round with hand over the ejection port. Cut the ejector nose off with dremel to match
std 1911 contour and you will not have this happen again.

Bill

[archmaker]

Thanks guys!

I will get that taken care of when I can use the hand.

I thought about not having my hand over the ejection port, but it was MY hand that contained the fragments. Did not hit my face or the thing I am most thankful for is it did not hit anyone else. Although just because I am of the once bitten camp I will carry a heavy piece of leather pocket size and use it to grip the slide if I can't rack it easily.

Normally I rack it with the gun pointed at the target from the back, but I could not get enough leverage to move the slide in this case.

[Patrick L]

With the information given, I too would surmise the primer contact with the ejector being the culprit.

Sh*t will happen, even when you are careful. This is why basic range safety is so redundant. If one level fails, hopefully the other levels will keep you safe. I'm glad you weren't hurt too bad.

Don't let this rattle you, get right back out there and keep shooting safely.

[exile]

Glad you are o.k.. No one else asked so I will, what happened to the gun? It seems it must be shootable since everyone is talking about repairing the ejector, but thought I would ask? Were you at a public range? If so, how did the other shooters, staff respond to your need for treatment, getting to the hospital etc.,? It seems that 11/2 hours waiting in the emergency room is a long time. I cut my hand almost all the way through when a teenager, so I know what I am talking about. The emergency room was in no hurry to get to me either. Fortunately for me, I can still shoot with that hand. Hope my questions are not insensitive, but this will probably happen to all of us someday, so it would be helpful to know what to expect from others on the scene. Hang in there.

exile

[archmaker]

No problem Exile.

It was a crowded public range, and when it happened I just closed my fist and walked away from the station. My friends gathered up my guns and stuff and put them in the car. Their was some shooters next to me and they were a little rattled, but my friends told them that I accidently let my thumb in the way of the slide.

The gun seems to be okay, of course I do not have any strength in my left hand so I can't rack it.

I drove myself to the hospital with my friend following.

It did not take that long to get in, about 10 minutes to the hospital, about 10 minutes to get into tirage, and they started examing, but needed X-rays which was a good thing because there was a piece in my finger I did not even know about.

But with the piece in my palm, having cut my vein it just would not stop bleeding with it in there. I soaked about 4 towels, before we got the piece out.

I never let on that it was really bad. I played it down, but I will be honest I was a little worried that it would not stop bleeding, once we got the piece out and the bleeding would occasionally stop, I felt a lot better.

Hand feels really stiff this morning, I have the bandages off which makes it a ton easier to type. I will bandage it up for my flight to Chicago which I need to leave the house in about 5 hours.

The thing I remember immediatly after, was looking down on the bench and seeing my cast bullet laying right there on the bench. No damage to it that I could see, and the lube was still in the groove :)

I always made sure my gun was pointed down range at all time. Turned my body so it could still point downrange. I have always been careful, and the way I look at it, I have gone through a ton of lead or more in my life through a barrel of a gun, and this is the worse accident I have ever had with a gun.

Sorry for the long rant, I can finally type (now if I could just spell :) )

[StarMetal]

I once had a 9mm Colt 1911 that had the extended ejector and I got rid of the ejector because it would not let the next cartridge to be fed to come up to the proper feed angle. It hit the rim of the case and the case wasn't all the way up in the magazine. That was it for me....I won't use them and I disagree with you have to have them on the shorter barreled Commanders. The early Commanders didn't have them, it was the newer ones that did. Speaking of ejector I bought an early model of the Ruger bull barrel target pistol. Right off the bat it just would jam and jam and jam. I figured it was the long ejector and I took a little screw driver figuring I'm bent the it a little. WRONG...dang things are hard and brittle and I broke off a good piece of it. Well polished it up and man it worked better then great. Never ever had a problem with it again. Met a young kid at the range. He had a brand new standard model. Did the same thing as mine. I told him what I did, but didn't recommend it as I wasn't positive it was a fix for all Rugers. Well weeks later met him again and he said he cut it down with a Dremel and it couldn't work better now. Then there are most Ruger owners that don't have this problem to start with.

A firearm is unpredictable...you never know exactly all that can make it accidentally go off. You have to cover all safety precautions. I'm glad you didn't get hurt worse especially that piece of brass going into your eye, like you said your hand prevented.

Joe

[The Double D]

There is a long history of cartridge ruptures like this in the semi auto's. Both accidents I have seen involved 1911's. Read and heard of other reports involving other guns.

Lots of variation in the time line but they all have similarity. All that I have knowledge of involved a hung up round of some sort or gun clearing.

One accident I saw involved the shooter unloading by putting his off hand over the ejection port to catch the round. The round burst and he caught shrapnel. He set the gun and down and dropped pieces of cartridge case and bullet on the shooting bench . Then pulled the case head out of his hand and drove himself to ER.

The other one was to clear a hung up round, and the machanics were the same as unloading. Hand partially over the ejection port. Round burst.

In both incidents marks were found on the primer showing it had been impacted. The common thread in these two accidents seems to be the hand or fingers in proximity to the ejection port.

Oh, yeah one other common thread. Both shooters were Police firearms instructors who teach not to unload/clear in this manner.

[StarMetal]

Here's one that gets me. Slam fire because of high primer. Someone please explain that to me in detail how that causes the primer to go off. Before you explain remember the good old Lee loader primes the case almost like a bolt slamming home. I never blew a primer with the old Lee loaders either.

Joe

[felix]

Shouldn't get you at all, Joe. Primers detonate by vibration from whatever the cause. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Shouldn't get you at all, Joe. Primers detonate by vibration from whatever the cause. ... felix


So I reckon there is no vibration what so ever and bolt slamming a cartridge into a chamber even with a properly seated primer huh? Not buying it Felix. The very first thing said usually on an accidental firing in a semi auto is either slam fire or inertia firing pin strike with improper primer cup hardness for such firearm.

Joe

[HeavyMetal]

Not to hi jack the thread, and glad to hear Archmaker can type again, but I've only had one slam fire and it was with a 1911.

Shooting one of my first IPSC match's, on an indoor range with poor lighting, I had the gun jam. Looked like FTF slide not all the way into battery.

Performed a "tap rack bang drill" and thats exactly what happened it went bang!

Then it jammed again!

Told the range officer I had a weapons malfunction and halted the stage. Droped the mag cleared the rounds remaining ( wasn't any) in the chamber and, after being cleared by the range officer, ( can't say I blame him for wanting to be sure) I got the gun out in the light for a check.

Turns out I had the firing pin return spring fail! It broke on the last legit round I fired, in two places no less, and wedged the firing pin in the hole so it wouldn't move.

This also placed about 3/8's of an inch of the firing pin out of the hole in the slide!

That is what caused the FTF, the round in the mag caught the bottom of the firing pin at about the half way mark and stopped forward movement of the slide.

The "Tap, Rack, Bang, Drill" jarred the mag just enough to release the round when I pulled the slide back to let it feed and then the firing pin acted as an "open Bolt" machine gun and fired the round!

The second jam was a repeat of the next round catching the firing pin. Glad the pin was stuck out that far other wise I might have dumped a whole mag in a "burst"!

I was also down to the last two rounds on the stage / mag so it wouldn't have been much of a burst.

However had it happened on the first round out of the mag???

Now as to the general "slam Fire", I've never had one happen. I have always been very concerned with the "High Primer" issue and for years looked at gun mags with pictures in them with primers set a few thousandths under the case head.

For the life of me I could never get that to happen! For years the best I ever got was flush with the case head and it worked fine.

Then one day a buddy got into bench rest shooting and showed me a primer pocket uniformng tool. These are supposed to make the primer pockets all the same depth and supposed to be cut to SAAMI spec's for primers.

Holy Smoke! I couldn't believe how much brass he got out of a primer pocket!

Low and Behold I actually saw for the first time a primer set below the case head by the proscribed amount pushed on us by all the gun "writers".

This is about the time, early 80's, that I figured out that most of the gun writers didn't have a clue about 40% of the time.

I went out bought uniforming tools from Sinclair and have had the best results in using them for both rifle and pistol ammo.

Until you have done this you can't believe how "all over the place" primer pockets really are!

I have also found some that had "uneven" area at the base of the pocket that the primer seats against. The uniforming tool only cut half the base area leaving the rest untouched!

Since the tools are designed with a positive stop system and fit the pockets tightly there is no way I tipped the tool during use! If there was straightening the tool would clean up the area I missed.

Because of the huge variation in primer pockets I believe getting a primer a touch to high is much more prevelent than we think.

The fact that we don't hear more about slam fires is a testament to our manufactures.

I'm sure someone some where has fired a primer while seating it, either with a Lee tool or a press but I think you'd have to have a lot of pressure to do it or a very rough surface on the"ram" used to seat the primer to do it!

One of the reasons I always "polish" the pins in my primer seating systems and watch closely for debis that might drop in unexpectedly.

Maybe we'll hear from other shooters on this issue? Maybe a new thread?

Think I done hi jacked this one enough!

[felix]

So I reckon there is no vibration what so ever and bolt slamming a cartridge into a chamber even with a properly seated primer huh? Not buying it Felix. The very first thing said usually on an accidental firing in a semi auto is either slam fire or inertia firing pin strike with improper primer cup hardness for such firearm.

Joe

You answered your own question. Great! "Improper primer cup hardness" should be stated "improper primer cup composition" which serves not to dampen any "bad" harmonics of any induced vibration.

... felix

[StarMetal]

You answered your own question. Great! "Improper primer cup hardness" should be stated "improper primer cup composition" which serves not to dampen any "bad" harmonics of any induced vibration.

... felix

Not according to the Federal primer tech/engineer. He was very adamant on stating that the same primers we buy for reloading are the same ones used in their ammo intended for semi auto rifle...such as the AR15's, M14 clones, etc.. He said if their primers were so sensitive they wouldn't load them in such firearms and stated that Allen Jones was correct that you can drop your cartridges on the floor and they won't go off as long as the primer doesn't hit a raised protrusion on the floor. I guess when I do my Federal primer test which is trying to get my AR15 to slam fire with a properly seated primer...due to the type of firing pin system hitting such primer from bolt inertia I'll also try some high primer slam fires.

If I can find the high speed photo of an AK 47 in full auto you will some some vibration of everything (I though the cleaning rod and bayonet were going to vibrate off the rifle) of great multitude.

Still not buying it Felix. Not trying to be a smarty pants, just I think many things in the gun world are myths.

Joe

[Geraldo]

Nobody has asked yet, but were was your trigger finger as you attempted to rack the slide? The hammer shouldn't fall as the slide goes forward but it has happened.

[StarMetal]

Nobody has asked yet, but were was your trigger finger as you attempted to rack the slide? The hammer shouldn't fall as the slide goes forward but it has happened.

Unless I interpreted the posts here wrong I was under the assumption that the extended ejector hit the primer when he was trying to clear the round. You are most correct about the trigger finger shouldn't be anywhere near the trigger doing something like that.

Joe

[felix]

I cannot explain this to you, Joe. You do not have the background in material engineering. Granted, you are exquisite in your application practices. I would be happy to include you on a fabrication and testing team. ... felix

[jim4065]

Not being much of a 1911 guy, I'm not sure I'm following all of this. Could someone post a picture or drawing showing the difference between the two ejectors? :confused:

[StarMetal]

I cannot explain this to you, Joe. You do not have the background in material engineering. Granted, you are exquisite in your application practices. I would be happy to include you on a fabrication and testing team. ... felix


Thanks Felix...you're a friend and gentlman. I'm just trying to get some posters to expand all this.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Not being much of a 1911 guy, I'm not sure I'm following all of this. Could someone post a picture or drawing showing the difference between the two ejectors? :confused:

Ok the first picture is the extended ejector, usually found on Commander size 1911's and down:
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=695145


Next is the normal fulls size 1911 ejector:
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=198484

Joe

[Heavy lead]

Well I'm glad you're alright. I after reading this always clear jams this way, no more. Thanks for sharing so we can all get the wakeup call. I'm checking my Kimber Pro's (commander size) to see if they have this, honestly don't know, if they do I'll alter them before shooting them again.

[JIMinPHX]

Here's one that gets me. Slam fire because of high primer. Someone please explain that to me in detail how that causes the primer to go off. Before you explain remember the good old Lee loader primes the case almost like a bolt slamming home. I never blew a primer with the old Lee loaders either.

Joe

It's been my experience that if a piece of brass is seated flat in a Lee Loader & the pin is in firm contact with the brass before you hit the pin wit the hammer, then the primer will not go off when you hammer it into place. However, I have had a few primers go off when I gave them a second blow of the hammer after the pin had bounced up a little from the first hammer blow. It seems to me that the shock of the brass being hit by the pin set the primers off. This has happened to me about 4 times over the course of 20 years. I was using a soft urethane mallet (just like in Lee's pictures) each time. I am now very careful to be sure that the pin is down flat against the brass before hitting it. I have never had a primer go off if the pin started off down where it belongs. I have been able to duplicate the problem intentionally by starting with the pin about 1/4" off the brass & hitting it with the same force that I normally use to seat a primer.

[StarMetal]

It's been my experience that if a piece of brass is seated flat in a Lee Loader & the pin is in firm contact with the brass before you hit the pin wit the hammer, then the primer will not go off when you hammer it into place. However, I have had a few primers go off when I gave them a second blow of the hammer after the pin had bounced up a little from the first hammer blow. It seems to me that the shock of the brass being hit by the pin set the primers off. This has happened to me about 4 times over the course of 20 years. I was using a soft urethane mallet (just like in Lee's pictures) each time. I am now very careful to be sure that the pin is down flat against the brass before hitting it. I have never had a primer go off if the pin started off down where it belongs. I have been able to duplicate the problem intentionally by starting with the pin about 1/4" off the brass & hitting it with the same force that I normally use to seat a primer.

Try that on a smooth flat piece of steel. I bet you don't get it to go off or it takes many whacks of the hammer.

Joe

[felix]

No, not many, Joe. Just the COMMENSURATE blow. ... felix

[StarMetal]

No, not many, Joe. Just the COMMENSURATE blow. ... felix


Yes that's true Felix, but let me tell you it takes a big hammer and a lot of force to do...I know.

Joe

[felix]

For the sake of others following this, let's explain it a more obvious way using a high-dollar car's suspension. They are spec'd primarily by the marketing staff. The engineer designs a dynamic control system to make that car ride as would be appreciated by the targeted buyer. Take the two cars to the salt flats and compare them on the train tracks there for the purpose. For example, the Corvette's suspension would be trash after 5 miles of track, at 30 mph. The control system would be sending out a flashing buzz from the get-go, but the driver is testing for destruction and thus ignores the electronics. The other car, a Rolls-Royce for example, goes the 5 miles with the ride good enough to have a glass of wine on the table without vibrating off. Now change the speed to say 50 mph. Both cars follow through just fine. But, let's go 20 mph. The Roll's goes nuts and turns off the ignition after a 5 second warning. ... felix

[StarMetal]

For the sake of others following this, let's explain it a more obvious way using a high-dollar car's suspension. They are spec'd primarily by the marketing staff. The engineer designs a dynamic control system to make that car ride as would be appreciated by the targeted buyer. Take the two cars to the salt flats and compare them on the train tracks there for the purpose. For example, the Corvette's suspension would be trash after 5 miles of track, at 30 mph. The control system would be sending out a flashing buzz from the get-go, but the driver is testing for destruction and thus ignores the electronics. The other car, a Rolls-Royce for example, goes the 5 miles with the ride good enough to have a glass of wine on the table without vibrating off. Now change the speed to say 50 mph. Both cars follow through just fine. But, let's go 20 mph. The Roll's goes nuts and turns off the ignition after a 5 second warning. ... felix

......but then let's throw in a trail bike on that track....the faster it goes the smoother the ride becomes...and the suspension won't give up.

Joe

[Geraldo]

Unless I interpreted the posts here wrong I was under the assumption that the extended ejector hit the primer when he was trying to clear the round. You are most correct about the trigger finger shouldn't be anywhere near the trigger doing something like that.

Joe

Joe,

I didn't get that from the OP. He said the slide was not in battery and that as it released it went off. For the ejector to contact the primer, the cartridge would have to be out of the magazine and chamber and slightly at an angle. This cartridge would be loose and the shooter could either dump it out the ejection port or if the slide went forward the more likely problem would be a double feed and another jam.

Without seeing the pistol and how the shooter grasped the gun this is only a guess, but to me it seems the likely scenario is that the slide release was out of place locking the slide out of battery. When the shooter cupped his hand over the slide it wasn't moving the slide but pushing the slide release back in that cleared the malfunction, then the out of battery firing was caused by the firing pin. As one person mentioned a weak or failed firing pin spring would be one cause, another would be that the hammer followed the slide as it released.

I wouldn't trust this particular pistol until it is checked for trigger/sear function and firing pin/firing pin spring issues.

[StarMetal]

Joe,

I didn't get that from the OP. He said the slide was not in battery and that as it released it went off. For the ejector to contact the primer, the cartridge would have to be out of the magazine and chamber and slightly at an angle. This cartridge would be loose and the shooter could either dump it out the ejection port or if the slide went forward the more likely problem would be a double feed and another jam.

Without seeing the pistol and how the shooter grasped the gun this is only a guess, but to me it seems the likely scenario is that the slide release was out of place locking the slide out of battery. When the shooter cupped his hand over the slide it wasn't moving the slide but pushing the slide release back in that cleared the malfunction, then the out of battery firing was caused by the firing pin. As one person mentioned a weak or failed firing pin spring would be one cause, another would be that the hammer followed the slide as it released.

I wouldn't trust this particular pistol until it is checked for trigger/sear function and firing pin/firing pin spring issues.

That's all well and fine what you described, but...it's pretty difficult and rare for the slide stop to come out. I won't get into that and the take down notch for it, but go on to say when the OP said the round wasn't all the way in and the slide jams, plus the fact that round went off and self destructed sending pieces of brass case into his hand firmly suggests the slide was open enough that the case was exposed to being able to see it. That means there's no way in the world the hammer could hit the firing pin....it's sort of trapped/hidden underneath the rear of the slide and there's no other way the firing pin can spring forward, especially having a spring to push it in the opposite direction of the primer. He also said he was pulling back on the slide.

Perhaps he saved what was left of the case and maybe the primer is still in it, or even has the primer if it came out....at any rate the type of indentation on it will reveal what struck it.

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

Yes that's true Felix, but let me tell you it takes a big hammer and a lot of force to do...I know.

Joe

When I had the occasional problem with the Lee Loader setting off primers & I was trying to figure out why it was happening, I tried several tests. One proved fruitful. I held the priming pin up about 1/4" off the bottom of the brass & then hit the pin with a small soft urethane mallet (just like the one in the picture in the Lee book) using the same force that I normally used to seat a primer. That was enough to set off the primer more times than not. I can only guess at why it happens that way, but it does happen that way. I am not just making this up or speaking from conjecture. This is what I tried. This is what happened. Please try it yourself if you do not believe me.

[Geraldo]

Perhaps he saved what was left of the case and maybe the primer is still in it, or even has the primer if it came out....at any rate the type of indentation on it will reveal what struck it.



I hope so, and I'll give him a lot of points if with a piece of brass in his hand he had the foresight to save the case. Perhaps his friends saved it when they gathered up his gear.

Actually slide stops do come out. It's not as common as other malfunctions, but custom smiths often mill the stop so the detent can definately engage the stop and prevent this. Others cut the end that protrudes from the other side of the frame so that it can't be accidentally pushed. I've had it happen twice, once on a series 1 Kimber, once on a Colt Gold Cup, both with factory stops. Given that Taurus 1911s aren't renowned for small parts quality it's a definate possibility, as is the failure of other internals.

We don't know how far it was out of battery when it fired, so the rest is conjecture. I'll stick with slide stop/firing pin for mine until more evidence comes in.

[StarMetal]

I hope so, and I'll give him a lot of points if with a piece of brass in his hand he had the foresight to save the case. Perhaps his friends saved it when they gathered up his gear.

Actually slide stops do come out. It's not as common as other malfunctions, but custom smiths often mill the stop so the detent can definately engage the stop and prevent this. Others cut the end that protrudes from the other side of the frame so that it can't be accidentally pushed. I've had it happen twice, once on a series 1 Kimber, once on a Colt Gold Cup, both with factory stops. Given that Taurus 1911s aren't renowned for small parts quality it's a definate possibility, as is the failure of other internals.

We don't know how far it was out of battery when it fired, so the rest is conjecture. I'll stick with slide stop/firing pin for mine until more evidence comes in.

If a piece of case blew in his hand the slide was open far enough that it's not conjecture that the slide prevented the hammer from hitting the firing pin. He said this too "The thing I remember immediatly after, was looking down on the bench and seeing my cast bullet laying right there on the bench. No damage to it that I could see, and the lube was still in the groove". Does that sound like the case was mostly chambered and the slide a little out of battery? Give up it up, you aren't going to beat me. That round was pretty much out of the chamber when the ejector hit the primer and the bullet didn't have any great energy behind it to propel it anywhere, but to fall on the table.

Yeah anything can happen to a 1911, including a slide stop coming out.....how "common" are custom 1911 compared to factory model out there???

Joe

[Geraldo]

Give up it up, you aren't going to beat me.

:confused:

Joe, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm trying to "beat you" at anything. I thought this thread was a discussion of what might have happened, all of which is conjecture at this point given the limited facts and abscence of evidence. If you can do forensic firearms examination without evidence via the internet, I can tell you that there is a big market for your skill. If, like me, you can't, reign in your ego and relax, pal. :-D

[StarMetal]

:confused:

Joe, I don't know where you get the idea that I'm trying to "beat you" at anything. I thought this thread was a discussion of what might have happened, all of which is conjecture at this point given the limited facts and abscence of evidence. If you can do forensic firearms examination without evidence via the internet, I can tell you that there is a big market for your skill. If, like me, you can't, reign in your ego and relax, pal. :-D

Blah blah blah sir, but I don't see you addressing it was out of battery and the hammer being able to hit the firing pin setting the round off and the bullet is just laying on the shooting bench. You haven't a clue. Shall I dig out my 1911 and take pictures of the slide retracted at various positions and exactly where the bottom corner of the slide blocks the hammer from the firing pin? Answer those questions sir. You know darn well that if it a little out of battery and the hammer could contact the firing pin that mean that 98.5 of the cartridge would have been chambered, but the locking lugs not engaged....further meaning it would blow the slide back, case rupture, bullet goes down and out the barrel...with force.

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

Blah blah blah ...You haven't a clue. Shall I dig out my 1911 and take pictures of the slide retracted at various positions and exactly where the bottom corner of the slide blocks the hammer from the firing pin?

Joe

Actually, I believe that it is the firing pin stop that pushes the hammer back when the slide moves to the rear on a 1911 & not the "bottom corner of the slide". I've known some gunsmiths to "adjust" the shape of the firing pin stop in order to alter the unlock time on a 1911 so that it would work better with certain custom loads.

...Just a small detail

[StarMetal]

Actually, I believe that it is the firing pin stop that pushes the hammer back when the slide moves to the rear on a 1911 & not the "bottom corner of the slide". I've known some gunsmiths to "adjust" the shape of the firing pin stop in order to alter the unlock time on a 1911 so that it would work better with certain custom loads.

...Just a small detail

You are correct JIMinPHX. I meant that area. Lot's of 1911 users don't realize to that the very original firing pin stop's bottom corner that contacts the hammer had been changed dramatically over the years. It's the hammer main spring, the recoil spring, and the shape of that bottom firing pin stop that regulate the operation of the 1911. The original stop wasn't as rounded as the ones today requiring more initial thrust to cock that hammer back. I very good instance of this is in the Russian Tokarev pistols. Try racking the slide back with the hammer in the rest position, then try it with the hammer cocked. Big difference.

Thanks for correction on that firing pin stop.

Joe

[archmaker]

Post

Sorry for being gone, been on the road.

Trigger finger all the way OFF the gun, I hold it so far out that I make sure it is not touching the gun. If I could find a way to not depress the grip safety and rack the slide I would.

I have almost all the pieces to the brass but I do not have the primer. I say almost because I cannot be sure about what went where. :)

here is the pictures. It looks like the mouth of the case was on the feedramp.

I placed the pieces on my hand about where they went in. The one in the finger is about where me and the doctor thought it was, went in one side and lodged on the other side, Real fun watching her sticking the scapel and forceps into the hole looking for the piece :-?

[StarMetal]

Post

Sorry for being gone, been on the road.

Trigger finger all the way OFF the gun, I hold it so far out that I make sure it is not touching the gun. If I could find a way to not depress the grip safety and rack the slide I would.

I have almost all the pieces to the brass but I do not have the primer. I say almost because I cannot be sure about what went where. :)

here is the pictures. It looks like the mouth of the case was on the feedramp.

I placed the pieces on my hand about where they went in. The one in the finger is about where me and the doctor thought it was, went in one side and lodged on the other side, Real fun watching her sticking the scapel and forceps into the hole looking for the piece :-?

Arch,

How far open would you say the slide was, or ejection port, when she let go? How far open was it when it jammed before you tried to clear it?

Joe

[jsizemore]

You lucky rascal, you're hand looks great. Is everything working okay?

[archmaker]

The slide had about a 1/8 gap between the barrel and the back of the ejection port opening. So i would say it was slide back about 3/8" from being full closed.

How far open when it went off I have no idea, I pushed as hard as I could and BANG my hand hurt and blood was gushing out my hand.

Everything is working ok, just sore. :)

The weird thing was the big piece nicked a artery or vein. When they removed the piece i can still picture old faithful, every heartbeat about 5-7" up in the air my blood. :)

No stiches just a lot of pressure and taking care of it.

[StarMetal]

The slide had about a 1/8 gap between the barrel and the back of the ejection port opening. So i would say it was slide back about 3/8" from being full closed.

How far open when it went off I have no idea, I pushed as hard as I could and BANG my hand hurt and blood was gushing out my hand.

Everything is working ok, just sore. :)

The weird thing was the big piece nicked a artery or vein. When they removed the piece i can still picture old faithful, every heartbeat about 5-7" up in the air my blood. :)

No stiches just a lot of pressure and taking care of it.

Thanks for the info, again glad it wasn't worse. That concludes that there was no way the firing pin set it off. From looking at the pictures of your brass it appears it pretty much was out of the chamber when it went off. What's your opinion now Geraldo? Now I could say being a new Norinco that the firing pin wouldn't be weak, but someone here ?? will say that's possible on a new gun. Then that brings up even if the spring was weak and the pin out some, how would pulling the slide back make the firing pin hit the primer? Also apparently the extractor had a hold of the case to pull it out, so if the firing pin did light the primer off it more then likely wouldn't have blown out of the case being against the breech face and extractor holding the rim.

Joe

Joe

[HeavyMetal]

The hand looks good but I bet it stings something fierce!

Nice overall photo of whats left of the case! You say no primer in it?

Very interesting!

If you have a camera that will do it can we get a photo of the case head rim area?

I still think this was an extractor "firing" and it's possible it caught the "lip" area where the primer meets the case. If it did and it "fired" the primer it's possible the force shoved the ejector "pin" between the case and the primer, under recoil, and deprimed the case as it fired

Saw a 38 Super deprime it's case every time it was fired with "Major" loads in1984 so stranger things have happened!

So a good close up pic might show where the ejector "hit" and started this whole shebang!

By the way have you peeked into the Taurus and seen what ejector you really have in there?

[StarMetal]

The hand looks good but I bet it stings something fierce!

Nice overall photo of whats left of the case! You say no primer in it?

Very interesting!

If you have a camera that will do it can we get a photo of the case head rim area?

I still think this was an extractor "firing" and it's possible it caught the "lip" area where the primer meets the case. If it did and it "fired" the primer it's possible the force shoved the ejector "pin" between the case and the primer, under recoil, and deprimed the case as it fired

Saw a 38 Super deprime it's case every time it was fired with "Major" loads in1984 so stranger things have happened!

So a good close up pic might show where the ejector "hit" and started this whole shebang!

By the way have you peeked into the Taurus and seen what ejector you really have in there?

The Taurus comes with the extended ejectors according to test review of the pistol.

Joe

[jsizemore]

Arch,
Can you tell us a little about the current condition of the pistol? Don't know if your hand is up to disassembly or manipulation of the pistol.

[archmaker]

Well the pistol looked ok when I last looked at it, but I had to fly out on Sunday the day after it happened and I am NW of Chicago and will not get home until Friday late.

I will try to take some better pictures, this weekend and then post. Also will be able to dis-assemble the gun, and look it over.

I will take some before I clean and after. The gun was pretty dirty as I was shooting before this happened some old Unique loads. (The Unique was old not the loads).

[jsizemore]

I've been using 4.4grs of Promo under a #68 200gr SWC. It's much cleaner then AA #5 or Unique.

[BD]

When clearing a 1911 jam at the range you should always drop the mag, and roll the gun away from you to the right so the round can drop out of the ejection port unobstructed. Keep your hand clear of the port by grasping the slide from the rear only. This also directs any debris away from your eyes if you do have an AD.

Leaving the mag in the gun increases the risk that the round will stay in the action where it can hit the ejector as you pull the slide back, or be trapped between the ramp and the edge of the ejection port when/if you release the slide. Either instance can possibly set off the round.

It always makes me cringe when I see someone "Clear and show empty" with their hand over the port to catch the round in the chamber. Let it fall, and pick it up once you're holstered.

When you're in a match, and totally focused and trying to go as fast as you can, it's hard to just stop cold, take a look at the situation and really think through what you're doing. But you have to do it. I learned this lesson years ago when cleaning my 1911 after a match. It wasn't until I noticed the ring in the barrel that I really thought through what had actually happened when I cleared a "jam" during a Bill Drill stage.

BD

[trickyasafox]

Glad your ok!

[archmaker]

Some odd insights. :)

Gun powder even #9 can go deep under the skin. I still have pieces there that have not worked out yet and you have to dig deep with a pin to get them out, yet once you do you can't even feel them.

A little boy on the plane, asked what I did to my hand. I answered "I hurt it". He looked at me for a second and then asked "Why did I do that?" :)

Thanks for all the well wishes and comments. I will post pictures late Saturday of the case close up for any that want to see it. (Better than the ones I did)

[archmaker]

This should be the last post on this from me :)

I was not able to get a good enough picture of the case but I did notice a thin scratch going from the rim to the primer, based upon where the indent from the slide was it looks like it may have been the ejector.

The ejector itself was dirty except for the inside portion looked like the metal had been hit with a smooth hammer and was bright and shiny. The total area that was shiny was about .11".

On the case there was a very small scratch, looked bright and shiny and more deep than wide. I could easily see it with a magnifying glass but the naked eye I had to have the case just right, then it was noticable at arms distance (Getting older and anything small has to be examined further away). The scratch was at lets say 8:30 position and the other side at about the 3:30 position the case looked like it had been hit twice on the outside from different angles one "hit" at about a 45 degree angle to the rim, and the other at a 90 degree angle to the rim. The 45dg looks to be about .2" and extends from 3:30 to 5 the other is maybe a .12" and goes the same direction. The total indent of the rim from these two "blows" on that side of the case appears to be .02" There is also a small flat spot past the rim on the case where the rebate stops and the case begins. Looks like a small hammer hit, about .075" in size.

The gun other than the ding on the ejector appears fine with no other damage.

Gave it a thorough cleaning, all parts removed examined and cleaned.

Hopefully in few weeks I will get the time to go shoot.

The hand is still healing, can't hold onto any weight to speak of but I can almost close it.

Thanks for all the comments guys.