??PAPER?? patching

[Molly]

You know, I've been reflecting that we're missing the boat - or at least we could be - by using paper for patching. Consider: We use high cotton fiber paper for wet strength, and ignore pure cotton fabrics. Why not sacrifice an old t-shirt and cut a few patches out of its material? It's stronger than paper, especially when wet, won't tear when t wraps, and should offer better protection to the bullet.

For that matter, I'l bet we could crank out tome real stingers if we just used a single '0' buckshot in most any 30 cal, with a bit of pillow ticking for a patch: It'll protect the ball in the bore, just as it does in ML rifles. Load it over a charge of fast powder, and short start it in the mouth of the case, just as if you arre short starting it in a ML rifle. Should be able to significantly improve on BP velocities and accuracy, unless I miss my guess.

Just something to chew on.
Regards,
Molly

[docone31]

Mathews did that with his Rolly Block in 45/70. He primed a case, and front stuffed it.
In terms of useing cloth instead of paper, I don't know. Paper seems to adhere by itself to the casting, and the rifleing cuts the paper. I am not sure the cloth would be cut. It would exit the muzzle intact.
We might end up front stuffing our centerfires some day though. Time will tell.

[bcp477]

As Docone suggested, I'd bet that there would be an issue with the fabric not disintegrating (or some other issue) ....and negatively affecting accuracy. As well, why change ? Paper does the job just fine..... so I see no reason why a "stronger" material is really needed. If so, then just shoot (metal) jacketed bullets. As for the buckshot idea....the only problem is that a single O or OO buckshot weighs something like 40 - 50 grains. So, this would be like patching a .22 rimfire bullet, to shoot from some other calibre. Might be fun to some (not me)....but not very useful.

[303Guy]

Ah, but...! Molly is suggesting we try patching a round ball - not wrapping it in cloth. That would add a whole new dimension to fun shooting. We have all wanted to try faster and lighter boolits but have often found they don't work due to the boolit to throat mismatch. Cloth patching a round ball - as long as the open end of the patch enters the throat, might be just the ticket! Hell yeah!:drinks:

(And if the cloth patch is thick enough so we can shoot a slightly under bore diameter ball, we could use steel ball bearings .... mmmmm!:roll: )

Actually, I have long wondered how to make a cloth patch for a boolit but just didn't think of the round ball!:Fire:

[RMulhern]

Here we go again!

:-?:killingpc[smilie=b::rolleyes:

[calaloo]

Patching a round ball for modern centerfire might work if someone has a .30-06 or whatever with 1 in 60 rifling. Also, I don't think stretchy knit material would work. Wonder where we could get some kevlar cloth?

[montana_charlie]

Why not sacrifice an old t-shirt and cut a few patches out of its material? It's stronger than paper, especially when wet, won't tear when t wraps, and should offer better protection to the bullet.
Unless you glue them together, I bet it wouldn't stay with the bullet all the way through the leade...much less the bore.
CM

[Red River Rick]

Um.......Errrrr. Boolits wrapped in Diapers? Maybe using your old underwear would work.

RRR

[303Guy]

I should think the patch would have to be pure cotton or linen so as not to melt against the bore.

Was is not practice to tie the patch over the ball with a light thread so as to keep patched ball ready for quick loading?

Why would a 1-in-60 twist be a prerequisit? All that's needed but will more be a problem? Anyway, I was thinking of a 1-in-16 hornet. For me the idea is to have a high velocity, short range rabbit round. (Excuse the pun:mrgreen:). Air rifle pellets can only be driven so fast!:roll: But trying it in the Brit seems alluring too! A 44mag rifle would seem to be the ideal candidate for serious fun.:Fire: (In fact, I know someone with one ...... [smilie=1: )

Just a thought, as long as the projectile is very short, cloth would work ..... it's a bit hard to make a round ball mold but a short, stubby little RN fella is quite do-able ...... mmmmm! :coffee:

[badgeredd]

:bigsmyl2:

Molly,

Would we need a new forum for "rag patching?"

Edd

:bigsmyl2:

[montana_charlie]

We could call it the Other Patched Forum.
It could hold the discussions about cloth, teflon tape, aluminum foil, and 'other' materials that pique someone's imagination.
CM

[303Guy]

Consider: We use high cotton fiber paper for wet strength, and ignore pure cotton fabrics.Well, I did in fact try fabric in my early hornet loading days. I was looking for a means to seat the bullet in an unsized neck. I never found a cloth thin enough. But now with cast, boolits and bigger bores ...... ! Still, we need thin cloth. Cotton white shirt fabric maybe? How thick or thin should a fabric patch be to hold the boolit without slipping? If we used a 'cross' patch and secured it to the boolit with candle wax (which should get the cloth patched boolit into the bore)?

[303Guy]

You know, I've been reflecting that we're missing the boat - or at least we could be - by using paper for patching.:coffee: My coffee is kicking in .....! Let's see .... I have considered hot dipping boolits into sealing wax. That stuff is hard and brittle and should theoretically come off at the muzzle but without melting exessively in the bore - maybe? I didn't try it because I couldn't find any in the shops - at least, the ones I tried.

I did try a 'waxy-lube' coating and that worked but that is more like surface lubing the boolit. At lower velocity, the boolits were not contacting the bore. But once leading started, things went south! That idea (of waxy-lube) might work better in a rust pitted bore after fire-lapping because such a bore would hold lube in the pits.

P.S. I am not working this morning - lots of time to speculate!:mrgreen:

[Rockydog]

I've never heard of tying a patched with thread to keep it on the ball. When front stuffing ML I've used either precut patches or for the best accuracy used a band of cloth about 2" wide. You stretch the cloth across the muzzle and push the ball flush with the end of the barrel, Then, gather up the cloth and cut it off clean across the barrel with a patch knife. Old straight razors make the best knives. ML accuracy nuts shop fabric stores with micrometers just like you PP guys haunt office supply stores. SWMBO might not like you cutting up a sheet of her stationary for a PP but you haven't lived until you cut up what you thought was an old pillow case for cloth patches.

As for loading CF from the front; Many of the latter day schuetzen rifles were front loaded with cast bullets, using a false muzzle to protect the crown, and charged with a primed and loaded CF case. The front loading pre-engraved the bullet and lessened leading, lowered pressures etc. For a really interesting read try "The story of Pope's Barrels" by Ray Smith. It covers the life of Harry Pope an artist of the highest caliber in the pursuit of making barrels that are legendary to this day, including gain twist barrels. Some info on cast bullets too including Pope designed molds with bullet ejectors etc. RD

[Molly]

...As for loading CF from the front; Many of the latter day schuetzen rifles were front loaded with cast bullets, using a false muzzle to protect the crown, and charged with a primed and loaded CF case. RD

Dear RD,

I'm afraid I wasn't clear on my meaning. I didn't intend to suggest the scheutzen practice you describe so well.I intended to suggest seating the patched round ball flush in the mouth of the cartridge case (a 'short start'), as though the cartridge case was a ML barrel.

This would then be chambered and fired in a normal cartridge fashion. Presssure would drive the patched round ball forward through the barrel. The effect of high twist rates may not be too bad, if my own RB tests have any validity, and we'd have yet another practical CB technique / application.

[Rockydog]

Molly, Thinking almost out loud here. I agree that it could be done in theory but I'd be concerned about the passage of the patch through the throat/leade area. Wondering it the edges might catch and fold back raising pressures or more probably destroying accuracy. Although I'm sure that the attempt to do this might be with lighter loads and pressures wouldn't get that high over all. Hmm, I wonder what size buck I can load in my 8mm mauser? Any body have a couple of O (.320) and #1 (.30) I could try? RD

[Molly]

Hi RD

>I'd be concerned about the passage of the patch through the throat/leade area. Wondering it the edges might catch and fold back raising pressures or more probably destroying accuracy.

Bet'cha a buck on the other side of that. And take your word for the results. Try something like 5.0 g Bullseye.

>Hmm, I wonder what size buck I can load in my 8mm mauser? Any body have a couple of O (.320) and #1 (.30) I could try?

I'd go with the 0 buckshot myself. Lemme know how it goes, OK?

[Don McDowell]

You know, I've been reflecting that we're missing the boat - or at least we could be - by using paper for patching. Consider: We use high cotton fiber paper for wet strength, and ignore pure cotton fabrics. Why not sacrifice an old t-shirt and cut a few patches out of its material? It's stronger than paper, especially when wet, won't tear when t wraps, and should offer better protection to the bullet.

For that matter, I'l bet we could crank out tome real stingers if we just used a single '0' buckshot in most any 30 cal, with a bit of pillow ticking for a patch: It'll protect the ball in the bore, just as it does in ML rifles. Load it over a charge of fast powder, and short start it in the mouth of the case, just as if you arre short starting it in a ML rifle. Should be able to significantly improve on BP velocities and accuracy, unless I miss my guess.

Just something to chew on.
Regards,
Molly

From my experience with muzzleloaders it takes good cotton cloth, teeshirts etc don't work worth a flip on a round ball, and I can only think trying to wrap a bullet would be something short of a disaster.
If you could figure a way to use good stout cloth like pillowtic to wrap a bullet the slug itself would have to be seriuosly small to the bore.
Besides that you'ld have to figure how to keep the bullet wrapped tight in the cloth.
In the end its a pretty simple deal to fiure, IF CLOTH WRAPPED BULLETS WOULD OF WORKED WORTH A FLIP 150 YEARS AGO WE'LD STILL BE DOING IT INSTEAD OF PAPER:mrgreen::drinks:

[Molly]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;... In the end its a pretty simple deal to fiure, IF CLOTH WRAPPED BULLETS WOULD OF WORKED WORTH A FLIP 150 YEARS AGO WE'LD STILL BE DOING IT INSTEAD OF PAPER:mrgreen::drinks:[/QUOTE]

Ummm yeah, but ... That's what they were saying when Col Harrison reintroduced the paper patch too. if'n it were any good, it wouldn't have been replaced by the copper patch. But that's not how it worked out, was it?

[Don McDowell]

Ummm yeah, but ... That's what they were saying when Col Harrison reintroduced the paper patch too. if'n it were any good, it wouldn't have been replaced by the copper patch. But that's not how it worked out, was it?

Well actually grease groove bullets replaced the paper patch. Much easier to get to shoot in a wide variety of bore sizes.
Copper jacketed bullets didn't catch on until the advent of smokeless powder, the lack of fouling, and the need for speed.
In the end none of it got replaced, just superceded.

Do you have any antedotal evidence of cloth patched bullets ever being used in metalic cartridges?

[303Guy]

When I was using my paper cup seating technique, there was nothing to lead the cup into the throat yet it worked. If a round ball is seated in a cloth 'cup', the chances are the open end will jump the gap just fine. I used the paper both dry and wax soaked (soaked after seating). I did the same with air rifle pellets and those worked too. So I would try seating the ball on the case neck, trim off the excess cloth flush with the case mouth then dip into molten wax and go shoot.:Fire:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-580F_edited.jpg

One can see there are no paper impressions in the bullet. I tried one trick that did cause paper impressions.

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-213F.jpg

This boolit was paper patched then seated in a paper cup like the J-word one above. Again, there are no 'cup' impressions on it. I did the cup thing because the patched boolit was a rattle fit in the unsized case neck.

[Molly]

Do you have any antedotal evidence of cloth patched bullets ever being used in metalic cartridges?

Nope! But I'll bet heavily that it'd work!

[ktw]

Seem to recall reading a history of buffalo runners that described using the thinner portions of antelope hides as patch material in the 40/44/45 BPCR buffalo rifles.

Wish I could find that link now. Some of you westerners may recall the author; someone who worked as a buffalo hunter, then as a guide, then as one of the very early gun writers.

edit: Found it. Frank Mayer
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

-ktw

[Molly]

Someone -?Phil Sharpe? - reported the use of fish skin as patching material in BPML rifles.

[RMulhern]

:rolleyes::veryconfu:confused::killingpc:groner:[smilie=b:

[SharpsShooter]

Masking tape to correct diameter and try it.

SS