Seeking Advice from S&W Experts...

[Treetop]

I just finished reading the excellent thread on .45 ACP revolvers and I have a question. I didn't want to hijack the .45 ACP post, so here goes:

Back during the 80s, I bought a brand new S&W Model 25-2 in .45 ACP and AR. This revolver has a 6 1/2" barrel and was bought before S&W came out with the Model 25-5 in .45 Colt (I think).

During this time frame there was local gunsmith named Earl Long who specialized in converting S&W Model 27 cylinders to .45 Colt and fitting them to the Model 25-2. I purchased a Model 27 cylinder and had the conversion work done by Mr. Long. The workmanship was flawless, but for some reason, I never shot the gun with the converted cylinder! Recently (thanks in part to the Cast Boolits forum) I have fallen back in love with this revolver!

Finally, my question. Because the .45 Colt cylinder was originally chambered in .357 Magnum, is the alloy stronger than a newer Model 25-5? Should I stick with pressures < 14,000 psi as suggested for the original Colt single actions or can I use a moderately warmer load. I'm not interested in the Ruger/Thompson Center only loads. I would like to safely approach 1,000 fps using the Lyman 454424. Is this safely possible? If so, what are some of your loads, preferably using Unique, 2400 or H 110. Thank you!

[HeavyMetal]

I read severral articles years ago on converting the Model 27 cylinders to 45 auto and 45 Colt.

The real issue with these conversions was finding cylinders with enough "meat" in them over the bolt locking slots as some of the Model 27 cylinders got pretty thin in this area after converting. I know one article had the smith doing the work say he would only use cylinders he supplied as he'd found to much variation in them to suit his "standards".

Now some of that might have been to add a little to the bill and some of that may have been straight talk!

I think I'd take a good hard look at how much metal was still over the case's, in the bolt slot area, before I hotroded this conversion of a model 27 cylinder.

Odds are you can make the 1000 FPS without a hitch but I'd check it hard cause new fingers don't look as good as the originals!

[Catshooter]

Mmmm. Remember, the 27 cylinder is short. Too short to utilize the crimp groove, you have to seat the boolit deeper. Deep seating raises pressures.

Having said that, if it was mine (and I dearly wish it was!) I would go for it. But I would use maybe a slower powder than is normal. There's plenty of room in the case, that's for sure. Maybe 4198?

Good luck and have a ball!


Cat

[NHlever]

Brian Pearce had a very good article on this in "Handloader" magazine. His reasoning is that that gun was produced in .45 ACP, and should be safe at 21,000 psi, or so. ( +P loads in the .45 ACP run a bit over that. However, as he suggests, I would stick with 16,000 - 19,000 psi. loads which add quite a bit of power to the 45 Colt without stressing the S&W revolvers too much. He lists quite a few loads in that range in the article, and it would be worth hunting it up. If you can't find it give a shout, and I'll see what I can dig up, but I would rather that you have the whole article in context for your loading.

[Treetop]

Mmmm. Remember, the 27 cylinder is short. Too short to utilize the crimp groove, you have to seat the boolit deeper. Deep seating raises pressures.

Having said that, if it was mine (and I dearly wish it was!) I would go for it. But I would use maybe a slower powder than is normal. There's plenty of room in the case, that's for sure. Maybe 4198?

Good luck and have a ball!

Cat

Catshooter, thanks for that "heads up". I hadn't thought of that. I just measured my two cylinders and they are 1.623" long. Any idea how long the Model 25-5 cylinders are?

I also have never heard of using 4198 in a revolver, can you steer me towards some safe starting loads using 4198? Before reading your post, I had already talked myself out of using Unique for a hunting load. I was thinking more along the lines of 2400, H 110, IMR 4227, etc.

In deference to this fine revolver, after working up a safe load for Texas whitetail (which really aren't very large, but very plentiful) and feral hogs (which ARE big and very plentiful), I will not fire these loads except while hunting. The original 25-2 cylinder with 200 grain H&G #68s and 5.3 grains of WW 231, IIRC, were wonderfully accurate and pleasant in this gun.

I wonder if I could approach 1,000 fps using the H&G #68 without creating as much pressure? I've taken whitetail with this same bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique with my 1911(at about 8 yards). But, big feral hogs may require more penetration than the 200 grain SWC can provide...

[Treetop]

I read severral articles years ago on converting the Model 27 cylinders to 45 auto and 45 Colt.

The real issue with these conversions was finding cylinders with enough "meat" in them over the bolt locking slots as some of the Model 27 cylinders got pretty thin in this area after converting. I know one article had the smith doing the work say he would only use cylinders he supplied as he'd found to much variation in them to suit his "standards".

Now some of that might have been to add a little to the bill and some of that may have been straight talk!

I think I'd take a good hard look at how much metal was still over the case's, in the bolt slot area, before I hotroded this conversion of a model 27 cylinder.

Odds are you can make the 1000 FPS without a hitch but I'd check it hard cause new fingers don't look as good as the originals!

Heavymetal, that is exactly what I'm concerned with, cylinder slots are positioned directly over the thinnest portion of the cylinder. That's why I was wondering what alloy the Model 27 cylinders were made of.

I think I will be safe (and keep all my original fingers!) if I work up my loads gradually (2-3 tenths at a time) until I reach my arbitrary 1000 fps or encounter "sticky" extraction caused by brass trying to expand at that inherent weak spot, whichever occurs first.

I suppose I should have mentioned in my initial post, why I want to load this revolver as heavy as safely possible. Our family owns about 500 acres in Central Texas. I'm not primarily a deer hunter (although I have killed many over my life time). I do, however, enjoy still hunting squirrels on a frosty, still winter morning. Last season I successfully "still hunted" up on several nice bucks and a few hogs, carrying nothing more potent than my Marlin 39A! I have since bought a shoulder holster for the 6 1/2" N frame and now must work up a fairly heavy, accurate load.

Thanks for your help.

[lathesmith]

Treetop, I can tell you exactly how long the cylinder of a 25-5 is, I've got a spare one from my revolver right here,and it measures @ 1.665". I also happen to have a very rare 629-2 cylinder, and it measures 1.705". My 25-5 originally had a 6 1/2" barrel--I of course still have it hanging around, and either one of these cylinders and this barrel could be fitted to any N-frame. The original idea I had was to chamber the 629-2 cylinder for 45 Colt, and use it in this revolver, since the original 25-5 cylinder has .458+ throats! I eventually settled for using a 625-? cylinder and a 5" 625 full-underlug barrel, it makes a dandy 45ACP wheelgun, which I like very much. I wouldn't hotrod that 45 Colt cylinder you have there, best stick with fairly mild stuff and leave the heavy stuff for something else...as always, YMMV.
lathesmith

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Personally I would stick with standard loads (14,000cup). Standard loads are by no means weak.

[shotman]

I think the reason the 27 was used was because it was easy to find. The 25-2 was made in the 45LC but was rare. The N frame cylinders would be same length but with a reccesed you would as said need to seat a LC deeper. The thin area would not be a problem with a 45LC factory load because they are not loaded very hot . Reloads are another story. For what a 25-2 is I think I would use it for targets

[HeavyMetal]

I think you guys need to be checking cylinder "Diameter" not length!

Particularly over the bolt slots! It appears that not all N frame cylinders are created equal.

I can sure understand wanting to use a 45 Colt for deer and pig but think I'd spring for a DIFFERENT GUN say a Ruger Blackhawk?

Truth is I bought a model 29 instead of a 25 for this very reason! I knew I was gonna want power and figured I wouldn't get into trouble with a factory chambered Magnum.

[StarMetal]

I have some load charts I cut out of an old Shooting Times or G&A, don't remember which. They are for the 45 Colt. Seems they categorized the old 45 much like they do loads for the 45-70, that is low pressure loads for the Colts, the medium loads are for the 25-5 S&W and the hot loads are for the TC and Ruger. With that said they were pushing a 255 gr SWC Lyman with 9.8 grains of Unique for 1021 fps out of a six inch barrel. Not knowing how thin your cylinder is I wouldn't do it, but I can tell you that on my 25 Smith 45 Colt those index notches are mighty mighty thing...again BUT this is where the thick portion of the brass case is. I've also read other articles here and there were the Model 25 Smith in 45 Colt will take some warmish loads in stride. My go to load for my Smith is the RCBS 255 grain SWC over top 9.0 grains of Unique and out of my 8 3/8 it gives me right around 1000 fsp easy and this is by no means a hot load, in fact it's just about 1/2 gr over a recommended load for the old Colts.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Remember, it isn't just the steel. Or the diameter of it. It's also how it is heat treated.

If the man doing the job understands this, then everything should be fine. If he doesn't, and you have a cylinder, that because of its mass didn't require heat treating from the previous caliber, then there could be an issue with safety involved.

No company is going to spend money on an extra step if it isn't required.

[cajun shooter]

You could also use a 28 cyl if you come across one. It just was not finished to the high deep blue of the 27 and might have more beef over the locking bolt slots. Not a measured fact just wondering if it might.

[Wayne Smith]

I think I will be safe (and keep all my original fingers!) if I work up my loads gradually (2-3 tenths at a time) until I reach my arbitrary 1000 fps or encounter "sticky" extraction caused by brass trying to expand at that inherent weak spot, whichever occurs first.



Really bad idea, I think. If the brass is sticky for that reason the steel has already moved. By that time the cylinder is weakened and unsafe, at least in my thinking. If you are that concerned about the strength of that cylinder, get a Ruger!

[Catshooter]

Tree,

I can't steer you to any 4198 data for the .45 Colt. Never seen any except a post on the Leverguns forum. Guy had a Uberti copy of a Win '76 in the caliber. The 76s are a known weak action and he wanted a bit higher velocity without the pressure. So he went to 4198 and it worked well for him.

If you aren't an experienced enough reloader to know how to work up a load for 4198 then I suggest you don't. You're in an un-charted area and there be dragons lurking about!

All in all, if I were in your boat (and I may well be some time in the future) I would go the other direction. I would lean toward a 250 to 275 grain boolit at around 800-900 fps. Remember, these boolits are extremley penatrative. Even on large deer it is difficult to recover any of these. Boar, well they aren't what you call thin skinned! Still, I would probably go for it.

It's nice to have that 1000 fps for it's flatter trajectory I know. But, can you shoot well enough to utilize it? Some can, many can't. Fifty yard drop at 800 fps isn't even worth worrying about, not if you sight in at 25.

Oh yea. I would never use 'sticking cases' to judge pressure in a Smith 45. Way too un-reliable. Use Ken Waters case head measurment system if yer gonna use one.

Good luck and keep us posted if you would.


Cat

[Treetop]

Tree,

I can't steer you to any 4198 data for the .45 Colt. Never seen any except a post on the Leverguns forum. Guy had a Uberti copy of a Win '76 in the caliber. The 76s are a known weak action and he wanted a bit higher velocity without the pressure. So he went to 4198 and it worked well for him.

If you aren't an experienced enough reloader to know how to work up a load for 4198 then I suggest you don't. You're in an un-charted area and there be dragons lurking about!

All in all, if I were in your boat (and I may well be some time in the future) I would go the other direction. I would lean toward a 250 to 275 grain boolit at around 800-900 fps. Remember, these boolits are extremley penatrative. Even on large deer it is difficult to recover any of these. Boar, well they aren't what you call thin skinned! Still, I would probably go for it.

It's nice to have that 1000 fps for it's flatter trajectory I know. But, can you shoot well enough to utilize it? Some can, many can't. Fifty yard drop at 800 fps isn't even worth worrying about, not if you sight in at 25.

Oh yea. I would never use 'sticking cases' to judge pressure in a Smith 45. Way too un-reliable. Use Ken Waters case head measurment system if yer gonna use one.

Good luck and keep us posted if you would.


Cat

Cat, thanks for your reply. I have been actively shooting and reloading for rifle, pistol and shotgun since my teen age years, in the '60s. My Dad was an avid reloader and taught me. I regularly cast my own boolits through the 70s and 80s, then I quit until I recently fell back in love with casting! Fortunately I kept all of my casting equipment and moulds. I'm now in the process of teaching my two oldest grandsons gun safety and reloading basics with emphasis on safety!

All in all, if I were in your boat (and I may well be some time in the future) I would go the other direction. I would lean toward a 250 to 275 grain boolit at around 800-900 fps. Remember, these boolits are extremley penatrative. Even on large deer it is difficult to recover any of these. Boar, well they aren't what you call thin skinned! Still, I would probably go for it.

Penetration is the only reason that I was trying to safely achieve an arbitrary 1000 fps with the Lyman 454424. I was concerned that 800-900 fps may not penetrate deep enough in a feral hog. The more I read on this and other forums, the more covinced I am that 800-900 fps may be plenty for my needs.

It's nice to have that 1000 fps for it's flatter trajectory I know. But, can you shoot well enough to utilize it?

No, I probably can't and I wouldn't take shot at over 15-20 yards on either a deer or a hog, as I said earlier, my only motivation was deeper penetration and I'm about convinced, now, that normal muzzle velocity will suffice.

Oh yea. I would never use 'sticking cases' to judge pressure in a Smith 45. Way too un-reliable. Use Ken Waters case head measurment system if yer gonna use one.


Thanks for the good advice, I had forgotten Waters' method until you brought it up. I'll probably just stick with published loads in my 25-2/25-5 revolver.

I'll be sure to post pictures of my first hog or deer this fall using my S&W.

[Catshooter]

Excellent, Treetop.

Remember, Keith shot a whole lot of big game with Remington black powder loads, noting often full and complete penetration.

I envy you.


Cat

[Treeman]

FWIW, I learned from a source that I considered informed and reliable some years ago that the big issue with .45 loads over 20,000 psi(CUP) in S&Ws was/is frame stretching rather than sudden catastrophic failure ( The guns didn't blow up with Ruger/Contender (25,000CUP) loads but shot loose and were ruined in under 1000 rounds). FRAME heat treatment turns out to be as much or more of an issue as cylinder strength. Having said that, a 260 grain bullet at 900 fps is very penetrative(capable of going end to end on deer). Hot rodding the old .45 may be fun in guns designed for that but it really isn't needed for much of anything.

[Catshooter]

Tree,

I agree with every word you just said.

I have a beautiful old 1917 Smith that someone worked on quite a bit. Has an ACP cylinder (not the one it shipped from the factory with) and a six and a half inch .455 barrel. The barrel actually measures .455, the throats are all .456 plus or minus two tenths. Shoots very well, very.

But it is old, probably first year production. So I sure as heck ain't hot rodding it. I found a 454424 single cavity Lyman that throws a wheel weight boolit at .458. 458! Too cool.

I think that boolit at about 850 will be all I'll ever need. I found a load using Auto Rim brass and HS-6 that gives me that and she shoots it well.

Color me happy. :)


Cat

[targetshootr]

It may have been mentioned but the 45 colt can do what the 44 mag does at only 80% of the pressure. But you have to crank it up to reach that level so it's not an issue as much as a fwiw. 250gr at 950 is all you need. Seems like there was a thread about 45s going lengthwise through horses from 100 yards back when the SAA was a new technology.

[StrawHat]

It may have been mentioned but the 45 colt can do what the 44 mag does at only 80% of the pressure. But you have to crank it up to reach that level so it's not an issue as much as a fwiw. 250gr at 950 is all you need. Seems like there was a thread about 45s going lengthwise through horses from 100 yards back when the SAA was a new technology.

Seems to me it was supposed to penetrate through and damage the enemy on the off side of the horse. Either way, not a mouse gun.

I use the 454424 ( 20/1) and a full case of black powder for most of my 45 Long Colt shooting. It will penetrate a deer lengthwise most of the time. More than enough for me.

Linebaugh has written a couple of articles regarding the strength of S&W revolvers in 45 long Colt. Most of the article compares the 45 LC to the 44 Magnum. The good stuff (S&W M25-5) is toward the bottom of the article.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm

He carries a 4" M25-5 himself and has a couple of loads listed for it. He uses a 260 and a 310 grain Keith SWC.