swaging dies ?

[blaser.306]

Hello gents , I just touched a lathe for the first time in about 20 years and may now have to buy my own . My first home project was to turn a "half" reamer for a .44 cal swaging die as per some tool and die making instructions that I found posted here in an earlier thread . The project was a complete sucsess right up till the point that I had the blind hole in my die just about completely bottomed out , at that point it appears that I ran a little lean on cutting coolant and burned up my beautiful new reamer . if anybody has made an attemt at this foolishness and would be willing to pass along any hints or tips it would be greatly appreciated . when I get another reamer made and my first set of dies up and forming , I will try to put up some pictures .P/S I have to thank this forum for helping me to find even more ways to spend my "spare" time !!!! Barclay.

[elk hunter]

Barclay,

Welcome to world of die making. Be careful as this activity can be quite hazardous to your mental well being to say nothing of the health of your bank account from having to buy more and better equipment.

Reamers need to be run at slower speeds, if you truly burned one up you were probably turning too fast. You also need to withdraw and relube them frequently.

What type of steel are you using for your reamers and dies? Different people like different types, I generally use O-1 for reamers because it's available, cheap and it works. I like A-6 and A-10 for dies. A-6 is a little easier to heat treat but A-10 is a graphitic steel with non- seizing properties and has excellent machinability, both are air hardening.

Hope this helps.

Good luck with your project.

[blaser.306]

Yes I am quite possibly in trouble over this , However I am useing 0-1 drill rod for the reamer itself . And as it turns out the place that I currently have access to a lathe also afords me use of a heat treating furnace , a belt grinder , brinnell guage etc . So I know as a fact that the reamer that I made tested 62 rockwell ,and now that you mention it I was running the lathe at around 7 or 800 rpm when reaming . But i will know better for the next go around . Also the die body material was just a piece of scrap hydraulic push rod from the shop 1 1/2 " diameter 1045 for practice sake you know ! Thanks for your input and will make an update when I've made something that will shoot . Barclay!

[barryjyoung]

I was running the lathe at around 7 or 800 rpm when reaming . But i will know better for the next go around .!

Hi Barclay:

I have come up with a workable shortcut to calculating spindle speeds. I teach this system to my machinist students and apprentices. Perhaps it will help you.

300 / diameter of the tool or material = RPM

This rule needs to have some modifiers used with it.

If cutting aluminum multiply times 5
If using carbide cutters multiply by 2
If reaming divide by 2

This simple system works very well for all but a few situations.

According to this plan you should have been calculating on a tool of approximately .500 diameter which would give

(300/.5)/2 or 300 RPM. So 7-800 RPM should definitely have burned up your cutter and it did.

Hope this helps.

Barry

[BT Sniper]

Good info guys. I'll put that formula to work on my next attempt at a die, thanks for posting that Barry.

I am in the same boat as I have access to a lathe and had a "unusable success" in my first attempt.

I have since purchased some more swage dies for the pistol calibers from CH and saved a little by skipping out on all the interial parts and making my own on the lathe. Quite a bit of work compared to the $40 bucks I saved per set but good learning time spent on the lathe.

I do plan on making some dies for popular riffle bullets and have also been greatful to the many of you willing to share your knowledge.

So my question is how do you make a reamer?

I'll have some pics up soon of some of my lattest projects.

Thanks,

BT

[BT Sniper]

Elk Hunter,

I need to purchase some good steel for my second attempt at a .458 swage die. I know you recamended the A6 and A10. What and where should I get this steel for my project. I have a press that can accept 1 1/4" by 12 thread size and was thinking about getting 1 1/4" steel to make the dies with. Will this make a difference over the 7/8" size in the .458 besides the $. I may need some laymen terms when it comes to the differences here. Thanks.

BT

[BT Sniper]

What is a "half" in reguards to a reamer. I see you are making a 44 cal swage die. I must say that DIY is a lot of fun but I have come down to purchasing all of CH 101 type dies @ $90 per set (minus interial parts) and save the DIY lathe/die project for the really expensive stuff like .223 from 22LR brass dies or the popular riflle bullet caliber dies. My time is somewhat limited with twin 2 year olds keeping me busy around the house and I can't get out to the tools as often as I would like or maybe I would try to make them all myself.

Good luck with the project and post a lot of pics for us.

BT

[blaser.306]

BT , The "half" reamer I have also seen described as a spoon scraper on posts much earlier , like around pg. 17-20 ish . please understand that this was my first attempt you can use my description with a grain of salt or lining cat boxes . From what I gathered you turn a positive profile of your projectile (slightly) undersize to allow for lapping to final finish later . Then grind 1/2 of the profile away to leave a sharp cutting edge on the leading edge of the spoon . Pre drill the majority of the steel out of the inner bore of the die body and use the scraper to bring to final "shape" inside . And again any hints will be gratiously accepted Barclay!

[elk hunter]

What is a "half" in reguards to a reamer. I see you are making a 44 cal swage die. I must say that DIY is a lot of fun but I have come down to purchasing all of CH 101 type dies @ $90 per set (minus interial parts) and save the DIY lathe/die project for the really expensive stuff like .223 from 22LR brass dies or the popular riflle bullet caliber dies. My time is somewhat limited with twin 2 year olds keeping me busy around the house and I can't get out to the tools as often as I would like or maybe I would try to make them all myself.

Good luck with the project and post a lot of pics for us.

BT

Brian,

Here's a picture of a "D" reamer and some blanks. I made a special tool, it works somewhat like a ball turning tool, to cut the profiles of the reamers. This view does not show the relief for the cutting edge which is on the left edge as your are looking at the center reamer. That is so the reamer cuts in a right hand "clockwise" direction

Hope this helps.

[scrapcan]

Elk hunter,

Nice pictures. Would you be willing to part with a ground reamer? I am just started down this path also. I am actually lower on food chain as I am also learning/re-learning things on the lathe. I had planned on using A-2 or O-1 due to availablility. I have a Corbin CSP-1 and an old SAS swage press. The only way I am going to come up with more dies for The SAS press is to make/have them made.

The pamphlet on making dies I posted on behalf of another member has some good info in it.

All,

I had a question on die construction. In all that I have read it is mentioned that die is center bored for ejector rod then profile is cut into die. Is this normal modus operandi? Also should one make the internals and punches before die is threaded? This seems like a good idea as it would be easier to hodl in chuck or collet un threaded.

[barryjyoung]

BT , The "half" reamer I have also seen described as a spoon scraper on posts much earlier , like around pg. 17-20 ish . please understand that this was my first attempt you can use my description with a grain of salt or lining cat boxes . From what I gathered you turn a positive profile of your projectile (slightly) undersize to allow for lapping to final finish later . Then grind 1/2 of the profile away to leave a sharp cutting edge on the leading edge of the spoon . Pre drill the majority of the steel out of the inner bore of the die body and use the scraper to bring to final "shape" inside . And again any hints will be gratiously accepted Barclay!

Hi Barclay:

These are more accurately referred to as "D" bits because they look like a D when viewed from the end.

When making D bits keeping the half section short will stiffen the thing up. By short I mean less than 1 diameter.

D bits need to be hardened and tempered pretty carefully to function well. You seem to have this down well though, you said you gor Rockwell C62, that is very hard.

Barry

[BT Sniper]

You guys amaze me. How did you learn all this Hunter? I'm officialy jelious. The more time I spend on the sight the more I learn from helpful posts you all share like these. I would have spent aimless time and $ trying to get to these results. I can see a possible successful die in my near future.

Thanks for the help. I understand the D bit now but those blanks pictured, are they the reamers before the cutting grove is cut out of it turning it into a D bit?

I would be really excited to see a step by step of the start to finish of making a swage die with all tools and materials needed if anyone ever wished to document somthing like this. I will continue to study the net and previous posts here as I'm sure all the info is scatered out there. That is the challenge is finding it is all.

Soaking up all I can here thanks again.

BT

[2Tite]

Elk Hunter.......

You wouldn't give us a peek at the tool you're using tp radius the nose of your cutters would you? I've long wondered about a way to do that with success. I've made d-reamers before but never reallly got the radius that I wanted. It sounds and looks like you might have that down pat...............

[elk hunter]

Elk Hunter,

I need to purchase some good steel for my second attempt at a .458 swage die. I know you recamended the A6 and A10. What and where should I get this steel for my project. I have a press that can accept 1 1/4" by 12 thread size and was thinking about getting 1 1/4" steel to make the dies with. Will this make a difference over the 7/8" size in the .458 besides the $. I may need some laymen terms when it comes to the differences here. Thanks.

BT

Brian,

Larger diameter dies are stronger, they are less likely to bulge if over stressed. you say you have press that will use 1 1/4" dies, if it is a reloading type press it may not be up swaging bullets as large as .458. I egged out the pin holes on the ram and did some other damage to a "rockchucker" press making just a handful of bullets that size years ago.

As for steel most of the tool catalogs have some types. Pacific Machinery and Tool Steel in Portland had a good selection a few years ago, but i haven't bought any from them for some time. You might try "Speedy Metals" they're on line and sell in small amounts. If you buy decarb free steel you don't have to turn off the skin of the steel to get past the decarborized outer layer.

[elk hunter]

Elk hunter,

Nice pictures. Would you be willing to part with a ground reamer? I am just started down this path also. I am actually lower on food chain as I am also learning/re-learning things on the lathe. I had planned on using A-2 or O-1 due to availablility. I have a Corbin CSP-1 and an old SAS swage press. The only way I am going to come up with more dies for The SAS press is to make/have them made.

The pamphlet on making dies I posted on behalf of another member has some good info in it.

All,

I had a question on die construction. In all that I have read it is mentioned that die is center bored for ejector rod then profile is cut into die. Is this normal modus operandi? Also should one make the internals and punches before die is threaded? This seems like a good idea as it would be easier to hodl in chuck or collet un threaded.


I don't have time to make all the reamers and dies that I want. I will just say jump in and try making your own. You will learn and you can't possibly make all the mistakes I did, heck I even invented a few new ones.

As for steel, O-1 works fine for reamers. For dies I prefer A-10 as it is graphitic which gives it a non-seizing quality, it machines well, it's realitivly distortion free and it air hardens at 1450 degrees. A-6 is my second choice, it's non-graphitic, but it machines well, distorts very little and air hardens at 1550 degrees. A-2 which I do use some times, is a little less free maching because of the 5 percent crome content and it air hardens at 1800 degrees which is getting close to the failure point of the stainless foil I use during heat treating.

Hope this is helpful.

[elk hunter]

You guys amaze me. How did you learn all this Hunter? I'm officialy jelious. The more time I spend on the sight the more I learn from helpful posts you all share like these. I would have spent aimless time and $ trying to get to these results. I can see a possible successful die in my near future.

Thanks for the help. I understand the D bit now but those blanks pictured, are they the reamers before the cutting grove is cut out of it turning it into a D bit?

I would be really excited to see a step by step of the start to finish of making a swage die with all tools and materials needed if anyone ever wished to document somthing like this. I will continue to study the net and previous posts here as I'm sure all the info is scatered out there. That is the challenge is finding it is all.

Soaking up all I can here thanks again.

BT

Brian,

If the question is for me, I learned the hard way by trial and error. Many trials and many errors. I just try to not repeat the errors, well at least not too often. I've been doing this for over thirty years and I'm still learning.

The blanks are unfinished reamers that I have turned to shape and size. The next step is to set them up in the mill and cut them nearly in half, I leave ten to fifteen thousands extra to grind out any warpage that may occure when I heat treat them which is the next step. After hardening I grind to final thickness, i.e. one half the diameter, then grind the relief behind the cutting edge and finially stone the cutting edge. It's all very simple or I couldn't do it.

As for a description of reamer and die making with pictures, that would be rather large project, a book really, but maybe someone that is good at this will take it on.

[elk hunter]

Elk Hunter.......

You wouldn't give us a peek at the tool you're using tp radius the nose of your cutters would you? I've long wondered about a way to do that with success. I've made d-reamers before but never reallly got the radius that I wanted. It sounds and looks like you might have that down pat...............

2Tite,

I'm waiting for a call telling me that the parts I need to repair a compressor in another part of the state have come in, when that happens I will be gone for a while. I'll try to get some time before I go to set the tool up and take some pictures and explain how it works. It's actually quite simple. If you have ever used a ball turning tool you will see how this works just by looking at it.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks

I'll pass on the info to my friend with the knoledge and tools. Together we should be able to come up with somthing. Your knowledge process sounds a lot like mine in my swaging attempts with many mistakes. You're just about 29 years ahead of me.

Great work thanks for sharing.

Brian

[blaser.306]

Elk hunter could you possibly show a picture of the relief cut on one of your "d" bits I think that I have an idea of where to make the cut but you know how it is a pic is worth a thousand ( painfuly slow two finger pecked words ) thanks Barclay!!

[blaser.306]

SUCSESS !!! I managed to get at the lathe again and using the recent info given here I actualy made a .44 "d" reamer that didn't burn up in the process of punching a blind hole for a nose form die , so now I guess that the next problem will be lapping said hole . Any suggestions .??? Thanks for all the advice guy's Barclay!!!

[scrapcan]

Barclay,

Can you show some pictures of your success. Show off what you have learned. I am working on learning the same things as your thread is about.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/A7FCD0C7C32B712/standard.jpg
............I don't know why you'd want to mess around grinding then heat treating high carbon alloy steel, when you can merely grind, then stone HSS from the git go. You have no worries about shrinkage, temper checking, warping or any other evils. HSS in round, square, or rectangular section are cheap compared to jumping through those other hoops.

You also don't have to worry about HSS as you might a file hard tool snapping, or the fine cutting edge loosing it's temper and galling the inside of your die. About the only high carbon cutting tools still used that I'm aware of is some taps (so when they break they can be further shattered and the pieces picked out) files, and drill bits for use in wood. For example PTG and Clymer don't make their chamber reamers out of high carbon heat treated alloy steel.

http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CFC43FFAA50298D/standard.jpg

Left photo is the HSS spoon getting ready to enter the swage die body to make a cut. Right photo is the spoon withdrawn and loaded with 'metal mud'. It IS one cutting surface so you aren't going to advance and take out 1/8" of material, but in roughing it will remove decent amounts. No coolant is required and as you can see in the photo the lathe is turning a decent clip. Probably close to 400 rpm. Final finish cuts when coming to size produce a finish that is almost reflective, and just a couple shots of cutting oil is sufficient.

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpg

VERY little additional polishing was required from a swage die I made to produce these slugs for paper patching for use in a 38-55. I'm not saying you cannot successfully use heat treated carbon steel for your form tools. Heck, 100 and some few years ago that all they had for cutting tools and those guys did some superlative work with them. But these days I just don't see the utility?

................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Hi Barclay:

I have come up with a workable shortcut to calculating spindle speeds. I teach this system to my machinist students and apprentices. Perhaps it will help you.

300 / diameter of the tool or material = RPM

This rule needs to have some modifiers used with it.

If cutting aluminum multiply times 5
If using carbide cutters multiply by 2
If reaming divide by 2

This simple system works very well for all but a few situations.

According to this plan you should have been calculating on a tool of approximately .500 diameter which would give

(300/.5)/2 or 300 RPM. So 7-800 RPM should definitely have burned up your cutter and it did.

Hope this helps.

Barry

..............Barry, is that formula useable for a simple heat treated cutting tool of high carbon steel, or a guideline based on using HSS? I see you note a modifier multiplying the result if using carbide. Not many shops around these days using high carbon for cutting tools. That 300 rpm seems a might high? Just curious.

...............Buckshot

[deltaenterprizes]

Great pics Buckshot! I wish I had seen your post a couple of weeks ago when I was working on a nose punch for a 6MM die. I finally ground a piece of 1/8'' square HSS and it got the job done.

[BT Sniper]

Buckshot,

I'm glad you stepped up and shared your knowledge. Haven't seen you on this side in a while.

This clearly looks like the way to go and as the light bulbs are turning on upstairs for me. I had to sit hear and think about how you were able to grind the ogive contour to the spoon bit. I also had to figure out how you where able to make it to an exact dia so as to get the dia of the die exactly as you want. This is when the lightbulb came on as I figured it out with my limited lathe experience that this is simply a one sided profile cutter. If you need to bore the hole slightly larger a simple turn of the handel on the lathe moves that cutter ever so slightly increasing the boar size.

I hope to perfect my own dies soon. Thanks for the help.

So anyone have any plans on how to mount a dremmil to a lathe?

BT

p.s. I know this HSS cutter does not need to be a full D shape so about how thick is the cutters you have pictured there? Looks to be maybe about .15 or so.

[Buckshot]

So anyone have any plans on how to mount a dremmil to a lathe?

BT

p.s. I know this HSS cutter does not need to be a full D shape so about how thick is the cutters you have pictured there? Looks to be maybe about .15 or so.[/QUOTE]

..............It's basically half the OD of the material used, EXCEPT to grind a bit of clearance on the underside if required. It naturally follows the form you're attempting to form, eg: it's thinner/pointier at the front and thickens as you move down the tool (as does the design you're cutting). I have no fancy grinding equipment. They're done slowly on a plain old bench grinder but then stoned under magnification.

As far as mounting a Dremel goes, what other metal working equipment do you have available to you?

.................Buckshot

[BT Sniper]

Between myself and friend with the lathe and mill I think we should have everything we need. I have gotten pretty good with a drill press to hold my parts mounted over a vise with a hand held grinder or dremmel clamped in it. Basicly a vertical lathe. I can usually keep + or - .002 or better if I'm carefull.

What do you reccamend as far as required or helpfull tools? I'm not sure just how much or what my friend has but he probably has it.

Nice work making them free hand with the bench grinder.

I'll give it a try. What's your thought on grade of steel for swage dies? I know Elk Hunter mentioned A-10 anything else I should look into?

Thanks

What are you looking for under the magnification glass? I imagine just a contiuious smooth cutting surface, no burs or dings in the edge?

[scrapcan]

Buckshot thanks for putting the pictures up again. I believe I have seen some of them before, maybe just the end results.

I had been wondering about HSS as a form tool as some of the old books I have scrounged said it would work for making stamping dies and that the HSS will be less brittle than high carbon heat treat.

Cool, now to get the QCTP set up on the old south bend and start making totally useless items!

[barryjyoung]

..............Barry, is that formula useable for a simple heat treated cutting tool of high carbon steel, or a guideline based on using HSS? I see you note a modifier multiplying the result if using carbide. Not many shops around these days using high carbon for cutting tools. That 300 rpm seems a might high? Just curious.

...............Buckshot

Hello Buckshot:

The formula is for using a high speed steel cutting tool that has been hardened and tempered. A drill bit would be an excellent example. The calculation is not for carbon steel tools. I haven't ever seen those used except in old books from england.

The way I came up with the number 300 is 75 surface feet per minute cutting speed for soft steel multiplied by (12 divided by pi). This should give an excellent result. The calculation is not 300 RPM but 300 divided by the diameter of the tool on a mill or the work on a lathe. 75 surface feet per minute is not fast at all, it is conservative. If turning a 1 inch part on the lathe the rpm is 300 but if the part is 2 inches in diameter then the RPM drops to 150.

Again, this system only gives a reasonably accurate starting point in a system so simple you can do the math in youre head. Here is what I tell my students. Calculate the beginning RPM based on this information, then if you are having trouble cut the rpm 50%. If you have no problems at all double the RPM. Keep modifying the RPM until you find a speed the machine, material and cutter like best.

Good luck

Barry

[Buckshot]

BT Sniper

"What do you reccamend as far as required or helpfull tools? I'm not sure just how much or what my friend has but he probably has it."

............I should have just asked if he had a Mig or Tig welder.

"Nice work making them free hand with the bench grinder."

............Thanks. It takes time mainly, and a bit of metal vision as you cannot simply 'dial in' some tangental ogive radius when you're holding the thing in your hand :-)

"I'll give it a try. What's your thought on grade of steel for swage dies? I know Elk Hunter mentioned A-10 anything else I should look into?"

.............I'd suggest O-1. It's fairly inexpensive, machines well and isn't prone to 'wandering' when quenching. To be very honest, the swage dies I've made to date have been made from 12L14. This is a leaded low carbon steel and is what CH-4D uses for their dies. It machines like cheese producing a superb finish. Like CH-4D does, for real longevity you'd want to case harden the die. Due to it being low carbon it will not through harden. Case hardening is a lot tougher on a guy, and requires a bit more then simply having a furnace, so mine are not hardened but work well.

"What are you looking for under the magnification glass? I imagine just a contiuious smooth cutting surface, no burs or dings in the edge?"

..............The magnification is so I can see what I'm doing :-) You want an edge that is keen enough to cut skin or paper, but it cannot simply be like a razor or a knife. They slice, and you're not really wanting to slice. In reality what you're doing is scraping and there must be some beef under the edge. There is no top relief. You want a thin band of clearance under the fine edge supporting the edge. Just enough clearance to keep it off the wall of the bore.

Under this narrow clearance band you want to add a bit more clearance so that the swarf (fine as it is) won't built up and clog, but once again you also want as much beef as possible because that adds rigidity. The farther or deeper you intend to bore the more you're tempting chatter, and chatter will ruin the finish.

Tomorrow I'll take a picture of the holder I made to hold my Dremel in the toolpost, and also a couple more of the large form tool so you can see what I'm talking about, about the clearance grinding.

..............Buckshot

[scrapcan]

buckshot

thanks for answering the questions posed to you. I also woll wait, anxously mind you, for what is yet to come in the form of more pictures.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks Buckshot. You are clearly a great help to many here. While your talking pics could you get the profile view of the spoon cutter you had taken a pic of allready to give me an idea of the thickness.

12L14? So this steel being low carbon does not fully harden durning heat treat/case hardening? This is a good thing isn't it? I'll look into it. So you don't heat treat your dies? I suppose this would make it easier to avoid a final polishing finish after the usuall heat treatment.

I plan on making a die for .458 jacketed bullets. How long would I expect life to be of a die that is not heat treated? I would be happy to get 5-10K worth of bullets before having to make another one if need be.

Would the only indication, short of breaking, of a unhardened die that is no longer usable be an oversized bullet? Could you then rebore it out to next size up in caliber?

Thanks,

BT

[Buckshot]

..............Well dang it, I forgot to take further pics of the spoon. I'll do that tomorrow, promise :-)

Here's the Dremel dealie bob:

http://www.fototime.com/2B5FE078B0170AD/standard.jpg

Just a hunk of 1/2" hot rolled plate and a piece of 5/8" keystock stuck together with intense heat! The piece of plate was bored out while held in a 4 jaw.

http://www.fototime.com/067572EBAEED6CA/standard.jpg

The Dremel is held in a simple pinch clamp. Since your dear ole Dremel is only going to be 'Sparking Off' maybe a tenth or 2 at the most, this is all you need (or similar). It's pretty ugly as I made thing long back before I had a mill, so it was all hacksaw and file work. And as you can see the file just knocked off the sharp corners. I was in dire need of the holder and wasn't after 'pretty' :-), just stout.

http://www.fototime.com/A5C3AE4314D191D/standard.jpg

I had to hacksaw in a couple weakening slots in order for it to actually pinch the Dremel. Heck, I just KNEW that mighty 1/4-28 could do it, but it sure wouldn't :-) Anyway, it works very well, is as ugly as all heck, but should give you some ideas. I've even seen setups with a piece of angle used like a cradle with 2 hose clamps holding the Dremel. You want it to be accurate and repeatable, and a Dremel isn't going to be too stressfull to whatever you rig up.

I have a long nose die grinder I want to make a setup for, as it's 1/4" collet will hold some stones you can REALLY work with (since I can't afford a toolpost grinder). However it would require a couple plates bored and a bit more rigid base then this one. I've seen a couple guys who've rigged up 3hp router motors to use!

12L14? So this steel being low carbon does not fully harden durning heat treat/case hardening? This is a good thing isn't it? I'll look into it. So you don't heat treat your dies? I suppose this would make it easier to avoid a final polishing finish after the usuall heat treatment.

I don't heat treat my dies because I don't have a means to do it correctly. If I did I certainly would, and I do intend to build a heat treat furnace. Right now, for me the dies I make work for me and work very well as a matter of fact, but hardening adds a magnitude of surviveability. The 12L14 steel, once case hardened would be a superb die, but as I mentioned casehardening isn't as simple as through hardening high carbon steel.

..............Buckshot

[BT Sniper]

Way cool Buckshot! I am one that would rather somthing work then just look pretty and I thought that dremmil clamp looked great. Certainly gives me some ideas or a place to start.

Thanks

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7EC7AA858B7E9F3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A2CF5D48D44712/standard.jpg

LEFT: Is the photo I posted before. MIDDLE: this is the backside, which is all clearance plus you can see how much metal is still there. RIGHT: Same tool, cutting side. You can see the thin primary relief angle, then the much wider clearance angle under it. BTW, this is the cutter I ground to make a swage die for 58 cal Pritchit Minie' boolits.

http://www.fototime.com/D1E2844971F9370/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/02CA55A26B76350/standard.jpg

LEFT: A couple other smaller spoons. A poor photo as it looks like the camera was focusing on the paper instead of the tools. RIGHT: Again a poorish photo. The smaller one on the right is the one I used to cut the swage die for the 38-55 boolits.

http://www.fototime.com/1A262E95FAAAC0D/standard.jpg

The 38-55 HP swaged boolits. Looks like it did a fine job, eh? The 2 in the middle have been run up into a nose sizer I made so I can seat them out of the case further. I wanted to be able to get more 3Fg BP in there behind them! You can see the step line on the slugs.

http://www.fototime.com/707B9410AE70036/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/45CD03553B4765E/standard.jpg

This is a bitty one that I use to hog out the custom epoxy fill nose punches I make. This is made out of a piece of drill bit. Due to it's small size I made a holder for it to use in the QC tool post. BTW, drill bit shanks make great cutting tools IF the shank is hardened. Not all bits have shanks hardened all the way to the end. They're sometimes left softer so the chuck can get ahold of'em.

While these cutters are ugly as a mud fence, they DO work and that's the important thing. Since I grind by hand it takes time, and sometimes a looooong time. If you're getting tired or wanting to hurry, stop and go do something else or wait for another day. Nothing is super critical except for the edge. The edge and the primary clearance directly under it is what will make or break the cutter and the time you've spent on it.

I suggest you NOT try to grind the primary clearance, if like me you're freehanding the shape. Instead once you have the grinding done, clamp the tool in a vise and supply yourself with some magnification and then stone the primary clearance in. Clamp the tool in a favorable position and have good light. This is just good ole old time tool and cutter maintenance work. Just like freshening up a reamer or drill bit.

................Buckshot

[elk hunter]

Elk Hunter.......

You wouldn't give us a peek at the tool you're using tp radius the nose of your cutters would you? I've long wondered about a way to do that with success. I've made d-reamers before but never reallly got the radius that I wanted. It sounds and looks like you might have that down pat...............

2Tite,

Here you go. This was made to fit my lathe compound T slot and be at the proper center height. As I said earlier this thing works a lot like a ball turning tool. The radius is set using calipers from the tool point to the center of the pivot point. You turn your reamer blank to diameter and the put this tool in the compound set 90 degrees to the reamer blank. Using the cross slide bring the tool tip up to just touch the ege of the blank and lock the cross slide feed. Move the apron to the right swing the arm to the right and move the apron back to the left until the tool tip just touches the outside corner of the reamer blank, by moving the apron to the left in small increments and sweeping the tool tip back and forth the radius will be cut. This is a very brief explanation but you'll figure it out once you try it.

The tool bit holder simply slides back and forth in the slot by using the threaded rod. The tool is locked in the block by the two center screws and the block is locked down via the two out side screws that go through to a piece that pulls up into a slot underneath the block. The bottom piece that goes in the T slot is clamped in the T slot and to the center/base piece via the three socket head screws in the center, there are two guide pins to keep the T slot piece and the base/center piece in allignment.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

Regards,

[BT Sniper]

Thanks for the pics buckshot it was just what I needed. I'll see what I can come up with and keep everyone posted.

Elk Hunter,

Very cool. I'll have to put some thought into this one. Awesome work as always

Great sight guys nice work and thanks for sharing.

BT

[BT Sniper]

These HSS spoon cuters are my curent project. Think I mah have it figure out. Going to try them out on a custom .458 die. Hope to have sucess pics soon.

[BT Sniper]

Buckshot,

I made my cuting edge on th eoppisite side of yours. Looks likie I am going to have to run the lathe in reverse. Anyone see any problem with this?

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

I made my cuting edge on th eoppisite side of yours. Looks likie I am going to have to run the lathe in reverse. Anyone see any problem with this?

...........Not at all so long as the spindle nose is not a threaded type. Or even if it is you're not going to be hogging so I doubt if there'd be a problem. Regardless what 'hand' your tool is, so long as the lathe is turning in the right direction it'll cut. You'll also be using the same hand movements (clockwise) on the crosslide to enlarge the cavity, same as you do when turning down a piece of stock so there won't be any confusion there :-)

...........Buckshot

[BT Sniper]

Thanks Buckshot,

For my first attempt only going on memory from the last time this thread was active thought I did pretty good. Then I looked up the thread and realised a made it backwards. Ohwell like you said it will still cut.

Here is some pics let me know what you think.

BT

[BT Sniper]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/spooncutter018.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/spooncutter019.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/spooncutter009.jpg

Used hand held grinded then dremmil with cut of wheel for fine stuff. Don't have a stone to do this with yet.

Great thing about this design you made Buckshot is we can make any size bullet we want with it. Very cool.

Did I miss anything?

[Buckshot]

Did I miss anything?

..............The only thing I'm seeing is in your middle photo, that the cutting edge angles upward slightly. However if the ID of the cavity is large enough it may not be a problem being up 'off center'. Since the tool is admitted straight into the pre-drilled cavity the leading edge of the form will be cutting close to on center. The following edge which appears to be slightly swept up may possibly be cutting also, but ABOVE the centerline thereby (probably) adding a bit of draft or taper.

If you take a look at some of the spoons in my post #35 to this thread, you can see where they arc back, but there is really no long(ish) straight cutting portion. Or in other words, once the arc reaches the major desired OD it's ground back out of contact with what would be the wall of the die.

One nice thing about using drill or reamer blanks is they're round (cylindrical) and since we're going into a round hole, they're the best means to get the mostest material into the leastest space, for rigidity. On the other hand, that cylindrical shape makes'm kind of a bear to grind. The easiest way for me to to first grind the cutting end flat, in half. Once it is as flat as can be made by hand and eyeball, THEN I will begin to form the radius I want onto it's edge.

There is another option which may be easier, and I've used this method for cutting short tapers and oustide curves. You can purchase rectangular HSS cutting tools vs the common square ones. Probably the best for use here would be a 1/4 thick x 1/2" wide x 4" long. You can consider it as already having been cut in half :-). Laying on a table pointing away from you, the upper left edge will become our cutting edge. All we have to do is grind in the desired ogive shape from the center of the end, sweeping back from that point to intersect that straight upper left hand corner.

Once that's done, we have to grind the underside away for relief to clear the side of our hole. We'll also have to grind away on the right hand side of the tool to clear the inward sweep of the ogive as the die cavity is formed. Actually I'm thinking I may not be describing this as well as it could be done, and I'm simply creating a larger problem, ha! I'd draw up a couple illustrations and get them posted here tomorrow.

..............Buckshot

[CWME]

http://www.artcotools.com/high-speed-steel-blanks-c-405.html This place sells HSS split round blanks. Looks like this might be a good starting point for these reamers?? Kinda pricey compaired to a standard blank from Grizzly tools but might save some time and be more accurate for us novice guys.

[Buckshot]

http://www.artcotools.com/high-speed-steel-blanks-c-405.html This place sells HSS split round blanks. Looks like this might be a good starting point for these reamers?? Kinda pricey compaired to a standard blank from Grizzly tools but might save some time and be more accurate for us novice guys.

...........It's nice one end is split, if it's length is sufficient. If you don't mind grinding in the split yourself you can find drill and reamer blanks on E-Bay a lot cheaper.

Here's 6 pieces of 17/64 (.265") 4" long for $18 + $5.60 shp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vermont-HSS-Drill-Blanks-17-64-2656-6-pcs-USA_W0QQitemZ150402134830QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item2304aa732e

3 pieces 27/64 (.4219") 5-3/8" long for $20.36 + $5.60 shp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Precision-Twist-HSS-Drill-Blanks-27-64-4219-3-pc-USA_W0QQitemZ160391622352QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item255815eed0

...............Buckshot

[BT Sniper]

I was able to give it a try over the weekend. Had some dificulties with the cuting surface being at a diferent angle to the tool post holder. I managed to bore a die that after polish produced a 420 grain bullet that was .458 at the base yet tapered to .440 before starting the ogive of the nose of the bullet. Maybe with a bit more polishing I can fix it up a bit. I'll try and get some pics up soon.

All ready thinking of the next and many more spoon cutters to come.

By the way did anyone have any luck with the glass cutting bits to bore a point forming die with?

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=BT Sniper;770376]I was able to give it a try over the weekend. Had some dificulties with the cuting surface being at a diferent angle to the tool post holder. I managed to bore a die that after polish produced a 420 grain bullet that was .458 at the base yet tapered to .440 before starting the ogive of the nose of the bullet. [QUOTE]

.........That very could have been due to the angle (upward sweep) of the cutting edge? Pictures I'd promised a couple days ago.

http://www.fototime.com/822F5471FA0DC35/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A2CF5D48D44712/standard.jpg

DRAWING In the top drawing labeled "Side" you can see that the ogive cutting edge MUST be straight. See RIGHT PHOTO If it's curved up it will cut deeper was the cavity curves down into it. A is the ogive cutting radius. At it's heel (portion farthest from the point) there should be practically NO portion that cuts and is parallel to the wall of the cavity. B & C The dashed lines show possible relief grinding. Diagram labeled FRONT is a head on view of the spoon in the cavity. It shows the beauty of a cylindrical tool cutting in a cylindrical hole.

By using the correct size of cutter, almost no relief grinding at C may be required. As previously mentioned, the cylindrical tool gives you the mostest material possible for rigidity, when boring in a cylinder.

http://www.fototime.com/CCDA0D7A0730388/standard.jpg

The ABOVE DRAWING shows the use of a rectangular spoon. It lacks the rigidity of a cylindrical tool but it's beauty lay in the fact that in effect it is already ground in half. I illustrated in the upper left hand corner it's top and narrow edge views. The BOTTOM RIGHT drawing is a view from the top. A is the ogive form. B is the relief ground behind the heel of the ogive shape. C is the rear relief. Depending upon the size of the cavity and of the rectangular tool, this relief may not be needed. D is the total length of the cavity, plus a small amount.

The THREE QUARTER view gives a better overall view, plus it shows that there is no grinding required on the top of the tool. The ogive form once ground only needs to be stoned on the underside and then lightly across the top. This is simple since the top of the tool is already flat. Laying the stone flat and using light finger pressure is all that's required.

..............Buckshot

[BT Sniper]

A BIG thanks here Buckshot. I'll have to take some time and study it a bit. I am pretty confident I will get it figured out soon with the help you have provided.

BT

[ETG]

I remember reading a thread a while back where a guy was making his reamers out of carbide tipped masonary bits. Very cheap and available at any Home Depot.

[deltaenterprizes]

I remember reading a thread a while back where a guy was making his reamers out of carbide tipped masonary bits. Very cheap and available at any Home Depot.

There are some that have a nice radius designed for drilling glass at Harbor Freight but they lack support need for the type of force exerted when used as a lathe boring type operation. HSS can give a nice finish and last a long time if proper speeds and feeds are used with coolant or cutting oil.

[MaxJon]

Yep HSS all the way I say! Too easy!

[Utah Shooter]

Grave Robber.

[Tel]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/laneranger/balltool.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/laneranger/media/balltool.jpg.html)